SPEAKER_09 0:00

This episode of Why Did I Become a Doctor is brought to you in partnership with Medical Brief, South Africa's leading daily healthcare news service. Stay informed with trusted reporting, expert insights, and analysis that matters to healthcare professionals. Subscribe free at medicalbrief.co.za forward slash subscribe. Enjoy the show.

SPEAKER_07 0:22

So do you watch regularly then? I do actually. Yeah, I I do. I I I I wait for the new episodes. Yeah. You know, it's uh this is uh an amazing thing. So do you watch or do you listen? Uh I I uh both when I have most of the time I watch. So you guys I see release on a on a Sunday morning. Yes. So whatever I can catch on that by watching I do. Yeah. But uh what I don't finish, uh you know, it's like I'm driving to work or driving back. But then do you use YouTube on in the car or YouTube, yeah. You don't use the podcasting. I just No, no, I don't have that. Yeah. Uh so you're paying for premium then? No. Advertis pop up in between. They pop up and I have to skip. Just pay for premium. It's the I think I stood. I saw I uh I I heard you uh on the last one saying that you do.

SPEAKER_09 1:13

Yeah, it's it's trust me, it's like one of the most useful subscriptions I've got. All right. And it's like I think a hundred bucks a month or something.

SPEAKER_07 1:20

Yeah, no, I'll I'll I'll I'll look at the I I should I'd like that because I use YouTube a lot. No, no, no, you must. Okay. Well, Dr. Hussein.

SPEAKER_08 1:29

Welcome. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_07 1:32

Yes, yak, thank you. Thank you very much for the invitation. Really appreciate it. Uh you know, it's uh uh I've been watching the podcast for a while now, and uh speaking to colleagues, and uh you you'll be amazed as to how many people are actually appreciative of it. And um even the guests that you had on, you know, the the w the ones that I know, after I finish watch it, uh I'll message them and tell them, you know, what an amazing story it was, you know, and uh and and they tell me too how uh how yeah insightful it was because it ends up being uh like an introspection of your entire uh career. But I see you guys are gonna gone good at it. You say you you take the guys back in back in time.

SPEAKER_09 2:17

Yeah, that's what we were saying. It's uh it's almost like therapy, like a like a in retrospect of a person's life.

SPEAKER_07 2:24

So that's what I told uh uh Yash when I met him uh at the Sada meeting in Durban when he invited me to come on a few months ago. Uh you know, it's like it's it's it's almost like therapy. Yeah. Because everybody and you know, we meet these people. I mean, it's it's uh I like that you uh you diversified and you moved uh uh away from just dental uh specialists and dentists. Um it's very insightful. I mean, I enjoyed uh the the show uh uh that you had recently. There was a podiatrist on. Yes, yes, yeah. I learned a lot from that.

SPEAKER_09 3:01

Uh the judge won ever lots of people enjoyed the job.

SPEAKER_07 3:03

The judge was fantastic. Yeah, I mean, he uh he was absolutely fantastic. But that's the thing, everybody's got a story, right? Everybody's got a story. I saw uh uh but our own colleagues, the ones that I know personally uh for years, I never knew things uh uh about them until I I watched the podcast. Because we meet uh on a social level or at a conference, and there's only so much we talk about.

SPEAKER_09 3:29

Yeah you know what I I encourage people to do this even with their families. Because there's some family members that you don't know, like I don't know many things about my family. Because we never sit down and just say, you know, tell us where you what your life was about.

SPEAKER_07 3:44

Right? 100%. I I I think the I think I mean I s the the one episode, sorry, I uh you were gonna say something. The one the one episode with Dr. Reddy. Yeah. Reggie. Uh Reggie Reggie. I I I I never met him before. And uh he I was gripped. I was absolutely I I couldn't uh I I I couldn't let go of YouTube that Sunday morning. And uh it was not a good thing for me because I had a conference to prepare for the following, I think a week, the following weekend. And I you know, I'm I'm a bit of a procrastinator. I I leave things for the last I had that day to put that PowerPoint together. And uh I think it was a good couple of hours that I think it was about three hours that went with that. And so uh coincidentally, I met him at the Milanist Congress that I was presenting at.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 4:43

And uh so I went up to him and I told him, hey, Dr. Reddy, you know, uh it's so nice to meet you. I w watched you on the podcast, we've got an amazing story. I was I was blown away from beginning to end uh uh uh about his story. Uh and for anybody who hasn't watched it, they had the it's a must-watch. Um and I told him, you know, you know, I only had that Sunday to prepare for today's Congress, but you you took up almost half a podcast for the humble. He said, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry I did that. No, no, no, it was great. You know, it was amazing. Uh and uh then I told him, Yeah, I'd I'd you know it's we we should get together. You know, when you're gonna be in Durban? He said he told me next week. And and uh I said, let's have dinner. And we got together. He came to my practice, and after work, we we we went out and we had a meal and we got to know each other a bit better. And I I must thank you guys for that. Oh, it's phenomenal. What a good story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 5:40

That that's probably Yak will agree, that's one of the favorite parts of for us of having this podcast is getting feedback from people, like random people that you've never heard from in uh you know, months, years, where they'll send you a message and say, Hey, look, I saw that episode with so and so, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_07 5:57

There's a lot more I can talk about. Yeah, yeah. I mean, uh uh you know, it's uh there's uh there's many other colleagues uh that that uh some that I don't know that I have that I'd like to meet because I I have I have s now newfound respect for them.

SPEAKER_09 6:12

Yeah. My question was gonna be before we move on, is when he first asked you uh to come on as a guest, what was your response?

SPEAKER_08 6:22

Can you remember?

SPEAKER_07 6:24

So we were we were sitting at uh he was lecturing uh um and there was a great lecture by the way. And um so I ended up coincidentally sitting close close by you. I think I was on the next table, you know, and I didn't realize it initially, I just came in, I came in a bit later, sat down, and then I looked to my left and I see Yesh right there, and all mic'ed up and suited up and ready to perform. With his performance anxiety. Well, you know, I I can understand the the performance anxiety, you know. We've we've we've got something. Yeah, it's uh but but but when you got you when you get on Then I look nervous. No, I think you if you are were you nervous? I'm always nervous before I start. But when you get on, it's a different it's not a different is uh it is a performance. Actually. Of course. It has to be. It is. Yeah. It it is. Yeah, yeah. You know, in fact, um after after uh initially when I first started doing these presentations, um I I I called my mom after that and I said, hey, thanks uh the the speech and drama you sent me for freedom. Initially you're nervous, then you get on stage and then you perform.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:44

Uh but but my my but uh I so when I spoke to him, there was uh I I complimented him on the podcast. Great podcast. I never met him before, by the way. We we never met before. No. Right? But the the nice thing about this is like I felt like I I've known him for a long time. Um And also the funny thing is I felt felt like I've met you too, because I've seen you.

SPEAKER_09 8:08

You know, the the the beauty of of nowadays is that like in the online world, right? Yes. I would have seen you, I would have seen you know, you presenting at conferences on I would have seen the adverts or whatever online. So it's almost like I know this guy, but we haven't met.

SPEAKER_07 8:23

Yes. Yeah. It was like we knew each other. So I mean we shook hands and I said, Yes, great podcast. And uh he told me, Thanks, thanks a lot. I remember and he said, When are you coming on? That's that's all he said. When are you coming on? Yeah. So I said, What do you tell me?

SPEAKER_09 8:42

See, that that's a response that we usually look for. But believe it or not, 60 to 80% of the people that's a made up fast. Yeah. No, it's it's factual. They most people uh they shy away from it. They think that they don't have a good enough story. No, no, the con the most common response I get is uh I'm boring. People say nah, I'm boring.

SPEAKER_08 9:02

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, similar.

SPEAKER_09 9:04

And I and my response to that is always you won't believe how many people tell me that until they come on the show.

SPEAKER_07 9:09

And this is why I asked you the question. Nah, most people just have to tell you right up front. Yeah, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_09 9:18

So thank you for like, you know, like giving us a chance and having that positive response at the onset. And now look, yeah It's also thinking you don't you know people don't realize it, but it's difficult coming on this, right? Because you've got to sit here, there's cameras all over, there's lights. It it feels also like almost like a performance.

SPEAKER_07 9:34

You almost forgot about it until you remind you.

SPEAKER_09 9:36

Yeah, yeah, but that's no, but this is this this is why now I have to go back to the form, is that after a while you forget about it. It just dissolves into the background and you start talking. And that's when we see like the real person. Yeah you know uh people take 30 minutes to warm up unless they're used to this kind of thing. Yeah. That's understandable. Dr. Sidat or saying I'm I'm tempted to call you an endodontist, but I'll get in trouble for saying that. Yes, uh You know the you know the politics around that, right?

SPEAKER_07 10:08

No, of course. Uh it's it it's it's it's not a it's not a secret. It's not a recognized specialty. It's not a recognized speciality. But let's jump straight into it. Why not? Why is it my I think uh uh I uh uh there have been attempts to make it uh a recognized speciality. Uh well let's make it clear. It it is a recognized specialty in different countries. I I I'm not I'm not a hundred percent uh uh sure uh because uh uh as far as I knew uh uh you know while studying uh endo in this country fell under the ambit of uh the prostodontists. And uh I think they were keeping that in their uh realm. Um look but but uh you know it doesn't make sense uh because uh as a prostodontist you can't do it all. You don't uh and and time doesn't uh allow you uh to do that. So I mean I know in my practice there's a lot more that I'd love to do, but uh uh endo it just consumes from you know it absolutely I think it's just a technical thing because we have rules and regulations, right, that recognize various specialties.

SPEAKER_09 11:18

Right. And a perfect example is pediatric d pediatrics. Right. It's not a rec I think now it might be. It or it's in the process of being uh formally recognized. Right. But in South Africa it just hasn't been formally recognized ever uh you know, up till now. Similarly with endodontics, it's all about rules and regulations, just saying we recognize this as a specialty, this is the training involved.

SPEAKER_07 11:39

So I think those of us that uh enjoyed the field or enjoy it uh uh uh found a way to uh to to make ourselves proficient in it. Um with uh and and I I mean, you know, we we we we we have to thank uh uh uh certain people, certain universities uh for introducing the endodontic diploma. Uh and also, I mean, further studies. I mean, I'll tell it to you in my story, or my my um in my journey, you know, uh uh how I uh uh progressed in endo and actually made it w at the moment it's about 80 or 90 percent of my day. That's what I do. Okay, perfect. So take us back to the beginning. Where are you from? So I'm from I'm from Durban. Yeah. Uh uh I've I I grew up um uh I grew up in an area c uh called uh um Puntins Hill, Merino Heights. It's uh it's in the in Springfield. Okay. Uh Springfield is where the value center is. Yes, yes, Macro, yeah. Yeah, Macro and so there's proper Durban. Durban Proper proper Durban. But before that, if if I can uh go a little bit before that. Please do, yeah. Um there's an area called uh Parlock. Right, Parlock. Oh, okay. I've got a good friend from there, saying I actually met a good friend of yours from school, who's my patient. Okay. When I was uh discussing uh but that's uh you know, so when I was uh telling him that I'm going on on this uh you know uh so he said he said you shouldn't. I said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then he said, Yeah, you shouldn't. Ah yeah, he's mad. Okay, cool. And that's where the story Yeah yeah yeah, it's also yeah, yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_09 13:29

He's editing, give him some editing.

SPEAKER_07 13:32

Yeah that's all so polish is like across the N three from the You see, yeah it uh uh it's across the across the N2 N2, sorry. N two, yeah, so that's uh Sika Lake Lake area because uh that's where uh my mother's family uh is from. So you remember look look if it uh you know it's it's gonna give away give away my age now uh completely. But I schooled uh the beginning to the end of my schooling career uh was in the eighties.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 14:06

So when I was born in the 70s, um I spent a lot of time uh in in parlock um and then that's where i at at my grandparents' place, my maternal uh grandparents' place, you know, and so uh I I you know go we we it it was it was it was a lot of fun in those days, you know, like uh like we we had different childhoods to what our kids are having today, you know. I mean, just playing on our bikes and coming back when the sun sets and you know.

SPEAKER_09 14:41

Parlock is very steep though.

SPEAKER_07 14:42

I can't imagine we used to go up and down those hills, you know. I mean I I fractured uh two wrists there. Yeah, and it uh it was doing wheelies on on my BMX. And uh we just uh it it was a lot of fun. Yeah. Um and uh I'm curious as to why Yak is so familiar with Parlock, but that's a story for another day. What did your parents do? My parents, uh my my my mother is a teacher, and uh my dad is an attorney. Okay. Um I think is he a famous attorney, well known. CDAT. Well probably. Um I well there were there were a few CDAT attorneys. So so they so they they they are they are maybe. Yeah, yeah. And so all family, all of your family, all the attorneys. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So um yeah, so maybe yeah, I I'm not sure. And you know, I believe your your your dad is also an attorney. Yeah, so maybe they're not gonna be able to do it. Yeah, he's he's he's he's retired or semi-retired now. And uh my my brother is also an attorney. So I've got I've got two brothers. Uh huh. Uh uh my my second brother's I'm the eldest. Second brother's an attorney, and the youngest brother is a dentist as well. Okay. Okay. Sure.

SPEAKER_09 15:56

So a family of professionals all around, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 15:58

He s somehow made it into professionals. Um but I mean the the uh education was very uh you know, it was uh strong point, especially from uh my parents, you know, guiding you know, I I I I I I I feel uh I and I and I said it uh before actually I said it before in uh at at a wedding speech that I was giving that uh in life if you sit and and and and think back, there's a few people uh that that you can count on your fingers that were responsible for guiding you to where uh you have arrived uh now. You know. And uh I I think back to to uh my my formative days in Parlock because uh yeah uh uh uh somebody I was very close to uh was my grandmother, my maternal grandmother. You know, and um so she uh I would say she she in without knowing it, uh she taught me uh kindness because uh up until today I I don't know a kinder soul that than than her, you know? So I spent a lot of time uh with her. Um and uh I th I think it was helpful to me uh in the long run. But um in the eighties um I didn't stay too much there with her. I was more with her with my parents because by then you see, you must remember it was in that it was in the time after No no, there was initially there was the I I think it was in the sixties where uh there was the Group Areas Act. So when the Group Areas Act came into effect and and uh Dr. Reddy spoke about it, uh people had to vacate uh wherever they were living, uh and then they were allocated certain Indian areas, colored areas, and you know, it were it was the party spatial planning. So uh so it in the 70s uh the the family had moved, my mother's family had moved to Parlock, they were actually forced out uh of the home, which was then declared a white area. So where was that? So that was uh uh uh uh near near Greyville. It was Harvey Road. It was yeah, Harvey Road. Uh so I think it was off Windermere Road. Okay. I think it was one of the Low Curry Road. It was in that area. So basically area at the bottom bottom. The bottom section true close to Amgeni Road. It was uh actually close to Amgeni Road. So it was so so so they moved there. At the same time, my father's family, this similar thing happened to them. And uh uh they were in an area uh a road called Young's Avenue, and you know, I I I I don't know exactly how to describe where that is. Uh but um they were also uh moved out and and they had they moved into town, so into central town uh in the CBD. So I also spent a lot of time in in the in the CBD at that time, uh, you know, and sorry in the Indian town because uh I mean Indians had their own allocation in town. Um and then uh and then the 80s is I mean when we started school, uh, and that was uh so I went to a primary school in in the CBD. Okay. Uh Anjuman Islam. So Islamic school uh yeah in Leopold Street. Yeah. Um Dr. Niraj Mistri was talking to us about this.

SPEAKER_09 19:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 19:49

Yes, I I Yeah, he mentioned it.

SPEAKER_09 19:51

Yeah, Anjumani, he said there's also like there were very few options, right?

SPEAKER_07 19:55

Uh yeah, Anjuman. I you know, the the the the actually the the interesting thing is that uh my mother was a teacher there.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 20:04

So I ended up there in uh uh grade one, and you know, it's like uh everybody knew me because my mother was there. What grade did she teach? So she was uh she was pri primary school, I think it was uh I think it was in those days you call it standard one. Okay, yeah, so grade three. You know um guarantee you weren't in a class. I wasn't in a class. Yeah. But uh, you know, it it it it it i i it wasn't it wasn't the best thing to have uh in the school because my writing was terrible. Uh and every time I, you know, uh every time uh I I did my homework and it was a they say go and show your mother this. You mean the legibility of it? The legibility. Oh, so you're in fact at one point to be a doctor, yeah. I jumped right I right for forward to the first practice that I was in. One of the teachers came to see me and she told me writing is still the same. Maybe it improved.

SPEAKER_09 21:06

Mamma made it. At least I made it.

SPEAKER_07 21:08

At least I made it.

SPEAKER_09 21:09

Yeah, you didn't need writing.

SPEAKER_07 21:11

Uh I think when you hear my story, you'll say, at least I made it. Okay, yeah, let's let's go on. Yes. So Anjuman, uh it was a fantastic school. I I I really enjoyed it. But uh the uh uh uh you know I did so talking about my mom being in the school. Yeah. Um what's wrong with that? No, she got a transfer when I was in uh after two years because of being there. No, no, no. She had she had an offer to eat in another school, uh a higher post, uh also in town. Okay uh yeah. And she took it. And uh I've I've I've actually felt that relief. It was uh it were you know, I mean not in a bad way, but I mean it was uh a little bit. Did she was hard on you? No, well it you know, it was it was just uh you got a bit stressful now, you know, having to go to record. few times I had to go and report. Sometimes I didn't I didn't go. Sometimes I just went went to the toilet with remote they went back to the class and said, What did she say? She said, Oh she's so sorry. Sorry at home.

SPEAKER_09 22:12

But there's all there's there's so many like like there's so many uncomfortable dynamics with that because also like you know students might think that you're gonna get favored because your mom your mom will try even harder to not show you maybe you know too because I mean she got on well with all the teachers so they were sort of look you know looking out for me and okay I and you know I I appreciated that too.

SPEAKER_07 22:30

You know, not in a favoritism way. Yeah. But uh but it's probably for the best that she she moved on. Yeah it it happens so she she moved on. But I I enjoy I enjoyed my time in uh in uh at at Anjuman you know the the teachers were good uh they uh they treated us like their own children and um but this this this school now it falls under the category of the of the so-called Indian schools right yeah am I right yeah and those days sport wasn't a thing or was it uh it it was we had our we used to go to Curry's fountain once a year for and have our sports day where they used to give us our donut and they call it Curry's mountain's fountain so sport wasn't the thing. So there was it wasn't uh no no no look this was in the 80s there was no uh there were no Indians going to Model C wide schools I mean this was uh this was proper apartheid yeah and it is a government school it's so it was a state aided school it was called a state aided school so I I don't think they got all they got funds from the government but not all their funds. They also had private uh probably the the Muslim community would have uh I I I assume so I d I didn't know what the dynamics were at the time. Uh but uh no it uh that's right.

SPEAKER_09 23:44

And then um Well why were you with the grandmom quite a bit? I got the sense that you didn't say it yourself.

SPEAKER_07 23:53

Well well you know I I think uh uh I uh it was my mum and dad being occupied during the day me not being at school so she took care of me in those years before If you it's a common thing I think a lot of us are raised by it happened to my my kids as well. Mine too you know it's that's that's the Yeah. It's cool it's good to have that it's a privilege isn't it? It is it's it's an absolute privilege. You don't get that in Canada and things like that. I mean it's uh something is well one of the reasons I never considered emigrating.

SPEAKER_09 24:26

I mean I wanted my my my children to know uh their grandparents to know their family and growing makes a huge difference also not even just knowing just to help let's be honest you there's so many things you just can't do if you if you're in a home where there's just a kid there and nobody else what do you do yak? You can't go loafing you can't go loafing like how you go loafing all the time.

SPEAKER_07 24:48

Why you think I don't know kid so yak is uh yak is unaware of that you're aware you're awesome vicariously aware you'll find that you'll find that so hopefully hopefully yeah so so yeah uh Anjuman what do you do trade one till uh seven so st standard five five okay because it doesn't go to high school it doesn't go to it doesn't go to high school so the the the feeder school for for Anjaman was uh audience okay so so uh standard six comes so we now we're talking mid nineties I mean mid eighties um and uh and I go to audience um and uh Orient at the time uh I think it it it it uh it was it was a good school still is an excellent school um and I I was there for not long. I was there I was actually happy to be there because I had all my friends with me. And uh at uh after about two weeks uh I got taken out of that school. So I I you know here now now I wasn't part of the decision. You know I uh it I wasn't it sounds like it was involuntary. It was involuntary I wasn't getting into it's it was by my parents mean you see at the time I think they were they were looking at it practically from a practical perspective and also um you were well off right I mean your dad's an attorney you're you're y you had money.

SPEAKER_09 26:21

You come from money.

SPEAKER_07 26:22

Well uh we we were comfortable right we were comfortable yeah yeah you know I mean I mean uh I won't say extremely wealthy but I mean we were not short of Okay. We were not we were not short of anything we were we we were we were okay you can call it well off. Yeah. Yes of course. Um but you know practically um uh I think my parents there were two reasons I I got uh taken out of uh Orient uh and put into a school called Overport Secondary. Okay. So Overport Overport Secondary was a newest school at the time. Uh it started in the early eighties uh and uh it was already producing like it few top tens and you know so it was like uh it uh it started uh gaining a reputation uh and also uh if I had to after school so i if I had to stay uh at Orient I would have to had to wait for my dad to finish work uh uh uh my mum and my dad to finish work and then come home. So here I could have taken a bus and just uh gone straight home straight after school myself. Okay. It was it was those days you know where you don't uh well dis just explain the location so where's Orient exactly so Orient is in town in town. Yeah it's it's in town uh uh uh near the the Gravel race course yeah uh St. Aidan's hospital is uh c close by and your dad's firm he's got a firm he was in town in the town yeah yeah he was in the C B D okay so so uh so from Anjuman it used to be a very close walk uh to his office right he used to send one of his secretaries uh to come and he'd pick me up after school and walk me to his and you used to go sit in the office I used to sit in the office and I used to I I I used to I used to sit in the office and uh you know I used to I used to listen uh outside the his room to was it his firm was it his firm he he was in the he was he was in partnership uh with with head associate do you know the name of the firm? At the time it was uh J and Singh uh CDAT and company J and Singh C.DAT and company okay so he's one of the named partners to firm yeah yeah yeah so uh the you know one of the partners' sons now is coming and sitting there yeah yeah what was the type of a lot of criminal work some civil work everything you know it was uh you'd go sit into homework and things yeah I used to listen listen you know it you know sometimes the language used to get interesting you know I learned a lot of uh I improved my vocabulary oh you mean like the the expedients yeah yeah yeah of course you know you see when you think David if the if the client said the wrong thing in court uh if he was a bad witness and he he didn't you know he he he would get told that but uh don't it was it was it was very interesting yeah it was uh I I never used to listen to entire conversations. Yeah. But I mean you know I was in the environment and uh so you never thought maybe I'm gonna be a lawyer one day. Well you know that's we well no because I I saw you know I observed my father growing up um and I I I I saw him taking a lot of work home. So there's a lot of homework. I don't know what uh never ends right never ends well you are now an attorney you are now a lawyer so well I was I I I wouldn't call myself practicing attorney okay but I was in practice and it never ends. So it never ends and I mean those days there were no uh cell phones right so so uh so now I grew up in the era before cell phones and facts me you it facts me and and landline at home also so we used to sit down for supper and uh the phone used to ring you know I'll answer it and uh can I speak to Mr. Sidal please you know it's a client there's some problem so he has to break away from that and he's on the phone for hours now you know trying to resolve that issue and it just never it never ended. So I thought you know I I must start thinking of uh something where there's uh you know I think it was subconsciously I was thinking of something where there there wasn't uh that kind of um homework yeah you know after hour.

SPEAKER_09 30:45

It's so funny as you're telling me the story I'm thinking of my dad now because he's what in his late 70s and he still gets those calls but it's on the cell phone and I hear him walking around talking to clients and things. Your dad is still my dad is eighty five. Yeah he's still alive he's still around yeah yeah yeah and did he retire properly or is he still doing work?

SPEAKER_07 31:03

Well my brother uh my br my brother uh uh took over the firm yeah so it's so it's him and my brother so he doesn't he's not there all the time but he's his uncles can't they can't retire.

SPEAKER_08 31:15

No no but it's like a family business or it becomes like a family business right because there's that continuity of uh clients or patients or as you say it's 85 he's still not he's not sitting and doing nothing.

SPEAKER_07 31:27

But he he he he he has his rest. Because he's not not not not every day at it.

SPEAKER_09 31:32

Okay. Yeah. Do you think your father chooses to go to work? Yes. I think so. I I always tell him you go there because you enjoy it. Like you go and you read the paper. I always look him like you don't do any work you just go and read the paper tell people do X, Y, and Z. Yeah they come and ask you to say Is he alone in practice? Uh he's got a partner also yeah Governor But um I always joke with him I don't know I've never been and seen I'm sure he's he he he always gets annoyed when I tell him this he says no it wasn't does work it's important everything but I just think they'll they love it man it's part it's their life it's a part of their life.

SPEAKER_07 32:04

Yeah look it's very interesting the community is also part of the life he's very interesting. I mean I I I I uh I if I say I didn't consider it completely uh I'll be lying I mean I I did think about it it uh you know but but I never applied for it. I think when it came to that stage uh okay we will be building up a lot of suspense now Orient you would say for two weeks uh I think how did you do I uh you know I mean uh I was I was having a good time with my friends you know we were uh uh breaking into the school and then suddenly I I I was told uh that uh we would be I'll be moving to overboard secondary. That's not good. Cool how do you feel? No just terrible it was a terrible feeling I mean you know it was uh I was uh it it was heartbreaking leaving my friends because I was with them uh from primary school man yeah yeah so we get to uh but in retrospect I think it was uh could you protest your parents were you was it no i i it those days no those those days were a bit different yes even our days to an extent you guys just uh you know made the call on the fringe like yeah yeah that is true but but uh it it's not uh no no there was no uh uh protest to say no no no I'm staying here and what when your ex dad you said go clean the gutter he would just go clean the gutter uh I I still clean the gutter I complied I I complain I I was sad and uh and and and heartbroken and uh I said goodbye to my I don't even think I said goodbye to them. Would you do it in terms of would you have known or would you have had a way to know like who are who are the students in Overport or not because there's no there was one other uh there was one other uh distant uh cousin of mine who I uh didn't really know uh who who was also uh going to be at Overport so so but my I think it was my father's cousin's you know his uh son so they also uh you know it's uh they they were part of the planning process right w without me right and then uh we got put together in that in a school and I got to know him and uh wait I'm I interrupt you again sorry to keep in this now you must Orient as I know is yeah it's Orient Islamic school. Exactly yes is Opot uh not Islamic not at all so well well it's it was diverse. Right. And and that was uh that that that was the huge positive I'm so happy I mean in retrospect I'm so happy.

SPEAKER_09 34:39

But can I ask what's the difference I mean I'm I'm assuming in Orient there was like some form of Islamic studies. Madresa and all the yeah and they're now moving to this uh the secondary school there was none of that.

SPEAKER_07 34:51

No. So you appreciated that yeah because I mean we had our Islamic grounding uh from uh from home and from uh from primary school and you could still go to like Madrasa and everything afterwards or I didn't at that point there it was uh uh you know um well you could you could have if you if you if you wanted to And the reason why I asked is it's interesting like your parents also would have made that conscious decision to say look we're taking him away from this school to to a different school what do you think motivated I I don't know if the the the I don't know if the diversity was part of their plan. It was just the It sounds from from what yeah I understand it's just geographics. You could geographics and look good school here you know it's producing topic academics right? Yeah yeah but but but you see they they they they didn't uh realize what was to come in a report secondary did they did they discuss with you before or did or was it just one day hey son you we're moving you it it it happened inside that two weeks I don't recall a discussion. I'm wondering yeah you look uh Orient also at the time uh had uh uh a little bit of a reputation for having uh not um naughty yeah yeah they they you know the things were getting a bit out of hand there so maybe that was part of the you know they didn't know they didn't want to know what what would become of me if I stayed there. Because and also uh but they were in the process of cleaning up. So so there was a there was a principal there at the time who was uh very so he I I could I remember the day clearly you know it the he where he uh he did his homework now from the schools that fed into Orient uh about the the the the the the students and uh so one day he just walked into our class and he said uh who is and he said so and so I won't say the name and uh he was a good friend of mine uh had a really uh he had a reputation of being uh extremely naughty you know uh and um so he he he put his hand up he said that's me sir and he said stand up right pack your bag and get out of my school just just like that I mean you know I mean just just just like that and and and uh that's crazy I mean where was he doing his homework from this is all like hearsay I'm assuming this is this is now you know because they were weeding out who were the potential problems I mean you know the the and and uh I don't think the 80s is hecking there was no big cause yeah you know I mean the Kelance came and they put up a fuss and but you know the beauty part was he ended up with me in overpower so by association knew whether not you so that they know it was Dr. C was it was behind the seat so I you know I I had uh I I had a I I had a variety of friends you know I mean it was very diverse. Uh what was so and I made uh I made a few friends and some of them were two in particular were very close uh to me throughout the high school you know we we just clicked um what I really liked uh about Overbought Secondary uh was that it it w I mean we were used to just being schooled by all there were there were mostly Muslims around us. So here we we we had diversity diversity in religion. Okay we were all Indians I mean rem it was apartheid. We were not uh allowed to go to uh to to white schools. Yeah uh so and that started getting dismantled I think closer to the closer to the nineties you know uh so but uh but that diversity So there was relative diversity for the times yeah yeah yeah of course no I mean for us that was our world okay we we had no interaction uh uh with with whites yeah we had our own beach we had our own cinemas we had our own space in town we we uh we had our own buses we couldn't take uh the white buses uh was it but did you have Indian buses or was it just non-white buses?

SPEAKER_09 39:13

We had uh minor it was probably Indian buses Indian buses yeah they were Indian buses yeah the the they really went granular with the categories yeah yeah the races were well segregated wasn't the bus called minor yeah minor isn't the business minor was a white bus initially and oh okay and that was still around when I was in school yeah M Y N A H the Minor.

SPEAKER_07 39:33

Initially we were not allowed on the minor Yaki's trying to make an Indian joke because you know but it's called Indian minor I think I as far as I I recall we had our old Indian buses similar you know when I when I went to uh Mauritius for the first time in uh 2000 uh I'm not sure I forgot 2009 I think um I was there then yeah study I was in 2009 yeah I I I was somewhere around there yeah you know and uh the buses I saw there were our classic Indian buses that we used to use you know the the that style of bus that that was in uh Mauriti when I went now recently they seemed to have upgraded were the bus drivers Indian yes yeah you know you you know why I'm asking this when I took my friend from Botswana to Durban for the first time in his life one of the things that stood out to him was that there were Indian taxi drivers he was so amazed because remember he's only been exposed to Botswana, Pretoria Chauteng.

SPEAKER_09 40:39

So for him to go to Durban and see an Indian taxi driver, you know like the taxis that public transport with combi bus taxis. He was shocked.

SPEAKER_07 40:47

So that's just the Indian buses had Indian drivers and it's just different world eh what a world we were not allowed to even walk into the into the white areas. I mean it's simple as that like and they were well structured. So we had uh so the the apartheid spatial planning uh had the black areas uh then they would create buffer zones so they they'd design uh uh a colored area and then an Indian area and then last the white area so they the the the I think the plan was that you know if trouble was to come, if there was going to be an uprising, then the the Indian areas and the colored areas would be they used to call them buffer zones so that they would take absorb up they would absorb the and and we and we actually saw it happen in play uh during the looting that that happened recently in twenty twenty three I think somewhere one twenty one. I think twenty one yeah somewhere around there you know amazing yeah yeah yeah so it was the buffer zone so it protected so um yeah I I mean I I I I have uh a memory as a a high school uh child you know with a group of friends and uh uh uh on uh during the school holidays just uh walking beyond our area into the uh into the white area. Which area was this from where to where from from the Puntons Hill area into the morning side area. So morningside was a white area and then then we saw this nice you know park and swings are you know so so so we went and we were knocking around you know maybe I think one of the guys had a ball or something and we were we were we were we we were playing around in that park. And then we were we got approached we we we got approached by uh uh by teenagers you know who uh so around your age basically similar age and you know it it got a bit rough because uh with me was that friend I spoke about who couldn't hold his mouth and uh but we but we had to we had to live you know it's it was that time when uh signification was real you know it was uh and it was enforced it was it was the law. Yeah and I suppose those days it could be uh it could be like openly enforced. It was openly enforced I mean you you go and swim in a white beach you're getting arrested simple as yeah yeah so when did Okay so overport secondary you get there you you you you managed to assimilate friends yeah yeah it was a quick uh it was a it was a quick assimilation. Yeah and uh so so and also it was um uh well I I I had I had many friends but a few close ones. Okay. Uh and were you doing well in school how how was it uh academics academically uh you know in in through high school the I I did I I did Pretty well. Uh yeah. I had some strong points. I mean, languages were not my my strong point, but the sciences I enjoyed. In particular, um mathematics. Okay. Maths uh I love it up till today. Uh you know, it's uh it's it's it's one of the things that where when I when I uh eventually chose a career, I felt a bit sad that I had to let go uh of maths because it was it was a subject that I did for fun. You know, it was uh uh especially geometry or any part of mathematics, but especially the geometry. You know, I mean I used to uh I used to through high school I uh uh I I did pretty well uh you know, like close to a hundred or totally. Just to I so you know like if if I went uh for uh certain tuitions and stuff, it was just to sharpen. I mean I used to I used to work out the that was my uh for fun. You know, I used to I used to work it out for fun.

SPEAKER_09 44:56

It sounds like you're one of those guys that people would come to help and things like that.

SPEAKER_07 44:59

Yeah, no, no. Yeah. But but I enjoyed that the most. Yeah. I enjoyed that the absolutely the most. And but it comes back. It comes back with your kids. Okay, okay. You know, because now the I mean those days my parents never sat with me and did homework. Yeah. You'll soon find out how old is your six, yeah. It'll take away you you you're gonna be doing homework. Yeah, but you see, now there's there's uh AI. Oh yeah. No, of course. Oh yeah. I mean AI is uh it's it's big in Lord. Well, AI is big everywhere. So in this new latest model of uh Chad GPT. But I mean they were you look, I mean, uh it was uh it i I I I I I struck a good balance because I mean I I had some uh look, we got up to a lot of mischief.

SPEAKER_09 45:59

Did your mate come to you for help with Mets, the same guy?

SPEAKER_07 46:02

Hey, you know uh Whizzing now. No uh No, you don't don't give away too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like did people come to you? He's not in Parliament. Did people come to you for help? Were you? Uh yeah, for for Mets they I I used to help. Did you play play any sport? You said you guys used to knock around or something. No, no. I I I I wasn't uh I wasn't good at uh at soccer or cricket, and you know I mean I was always the useful useless guy on the field. Yeah. You know, it's like kick the ball somewhere to the wrong guy. So I no, I got on the field because we had to. Yeah. We had to. That the PE teacher uh too was hard. You know what I mean? There's your team, now you play. You know what I mean? There's no sitting on the side and and watching, you know, so I had to uh so it we we we we played. I I I never really enjoyed it. And did you guys? So it it it became a stressful thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was bad at it. Okay. I was bad at uh I think uh uh I think uh I was a strong swimmer. Okay. So uh s uh I was a strong uh swimmer. Uh I was I was in a uh club uh and uh proper club swimming and uh and and ocean swimming. Wow. Yeah, so we so so we we trained at uh uh Asheville Pool.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 47:23

And uh my father made sure he took us. He used to train every day. Uh you know, for uh up until I think around about maybe grade nine or somewhere around there. So through uh primary school, we used to go. So even when we finished uh uh uh um uh uh finished school in in town, uh it used to be a late session. He we used to go we used to go to the pool, we used to swim till the evening and then then go home. And you can you s you used to swim in the ocean and stuff? Yeah, you see, we used to train at uh Asheville Pool. Right. It was quite intense training. Uh uh it was like uh uh it was I was in a club uh call I can mention names uh the Pisces, they're still ancestry, you know. And uh I remember we we used to uh we we used to swim uh uh in a row behind each other uh to the for you know from one end to the other and our break continuously our break was jumping off and running back to the deep ends and then getting back in. You know, so th they they they built strong swimmers. But for some reason, I think maybe because it wasn't heated, uh the the pool used to be closed in the winter. So we had nowhere to train. We couldn't go to the to the heated uh pools uh or that may have been in the white areas. So uh they they used to we used to go to the beach. And so so um they used to we used to form a group of of about say fifteen or twenty uh of us and we should all swim in right to the shark nets. Wow. And and you know, but we always stayed in a group together so that we could assist if anybody was in trouble. You know, so but it was it was fun. I I I enjoyed it. It it it um so and uh that's also something I'm appreciative of because I mean the ocean, I love the ocean and uh I love swimming and uh uh I I'm I'm completely comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Uh in there. So so so so sport at school, no. But swimming, uh when we used to have uh you see overport secondary had very bad swimmers. Okay. Uh the when it came to the we used to we used to have a swimming gala once a year. Uh so and I used to I used to do well there in that one. Not in my own club. Uh in my own club, uh I I uh uh s in the club that I was, they were mostly colored. Okay. And uh I was like the weak swimmer in front of them. Yeah, yeah. But it's interesting. So I wonder why your parent your dad decided to send you for these things. I wonder why. Did he did he swim? No. Yeah. No, he's the the he no, he's not a swimmer. He's not a swimmer. I think it's uh it's a skill that he wanted us to make sure you know.

SPEAKER_09 50:09

Yeah, but that's what you were saying, like it comes with uh Oh no, you're talking about maths are tutoring businesses. But now the So you're doing well in maths and physics, I'm guessing, and all the sciences, and then your languages are not.

SPEAKER_07 50:23

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 50:23

I mean I uh But that's usually the thing, eh? People are great at languages and not that great at the sciences, and vice versa. I I noticed. I don't know, it's anecdotal. Yeah. But I'm not good at that. That's why I did geography. Um but when did you then decide let me work towards dentistry?

SPEAKER_07 50:42

So the law thing never came up. The law thing, uh no, the law the law thing never never never came up. You know, I I I I thought about doing something actually dentistry was not uh not my first choice in my mind. Um I you know, I I was thinking of health sciences, but I was also thinking engineering. Uh but my mind was more uh um more more uh keen on engineering. Not that I knew a lot about engineering at the time. We were not exactly in the information era. Uh you know, the we we used to use Encyclopedia Britannica.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:20

So there's no, you know, Googling this of uh finding out information or you know. So but but uh engineering from what I knew, uh I felt look, there's a lot of maths there, there's a lot of uh physics and what so so I I started thinking about that. So mechanical engineering? I was thinking of mechanical. Uh actually uh uh I applied for that and and I applied for chemical. Um But but but uh you know in to to to But why did you apply for that? I mean based on what? Just uh Britannica? And it's not Britannica, yeah. Yeah, yeah I think uh I think it was the science. But do you speak to people? Like do you do did you know any engineers? No, I didn't look deep into it. It's interesting. I just yeah, I was just gonna do it because actually uh a lot of my friends uh who were I I still kept in touch with my friends at Orient we used to meet now and I'm friends with them up till today. Right. So the the friends that I had in childhood, I'm still friends with them. We meet at the mosque, we meet here, you know, we we know each other, we we we contact each other. Um so What were they doing? But but but to yeah, yeah. Well in Matric, uh the a lot of uh them applied for engineering and when I did it. It's interesting, just by like osmosis, we're just saying. Yeah, you just say, okay, yeah, we're in a captown and good at maths. But but but you see, the dentistry thing was also there in my mind because I thought, okay, look, if I do health sciences, uh I don't I I don't want to do medicine because I know there is going to be a a lot of after-hour work through maybe emergency work and what have you. So I was looking at other fields, I was looking uh at optometry because I I have cousins that uh uh are opt uh optometrists, so I knew in the family, uh and it it seemed like a nice uh nice profession, so uh that was one of my choices. But I'm gonna uh you know it seems like a uh like a common theme, but I drew my inspiration actually from my dentist. Okay. So uh so the dentist that my mom used to take us to the dentist every six months. Oh yeah. That's very un South African. Without fail. F from the time uh we were in primary school, right uh right up until she had control over us. She till high school to do this. Any dentists or in the family? She made sure. No, no. Uh no, no, no. She she just made sure. And there was a dentist, there's a there is a dentist, but he retired now recently. Uh his name is uh Dr. Strini Chetty. Uh excellent dentist. So he was uh I I'm seeing him from the he qualified from Witz in 1980. So I saw him through the 80s. And uh he's just the kindest soul. I mean, he's kind he's absolutely, you know, he's a gentleman. So he's he's a true gentleman, uh very gentle person. Uh and he gave me a very good impression of uh you know of of of being a dentist. He was the family dentist. He was the family dentist. And uh and and very high quality work, you know. Uh but how do you know as a student? Yeah, exactly. You see, I know this now. Now now I know it. Yeah at the time, as as as a patient, as long as the as the as the practitioner is uh his amalgam is lasted. Yeah, yeah. My amalgams lasted. But patients expect things to last forever. So how did you know? What was good about him for you as a patient? For me as a patient, uh I think it was his manner. Um kindness and his Yeah, it was the kindness. Kindness stands out. So it was his manner and his gentleness. Um and uh you know it look at uh how I know his the quality of his work now is because I I I I take it took me till now to actually till recently to have my own first endo. Okay. Yeah, I mean I got uh it was only in in in recent time. Whereas I mean look, it's uh it becomes a a vicious cycle. I mean, if the if the first first restoration that the patient has is ha is poor quality, uh then uh I mean it's just a knock-on effect. It's just a matter of time before it becomes an endo. So probably by in your early teens or late teens, you're gonna be having that early twenties. Uh and then after that. No, a friend of mine. I I I I actually I can I'm not sure. Yeah, please. Yeah, yeah. So so uh when I knew I knew I needed an endo, uh my brother told me, No, no ways, don't come to me for this. And I said, No, no, no, it's okay. It looks like a tough one. You know, there's an MD2 here and he's like, This is a tough picture.

SPEAKER_04 56:17

The work is our tough.

SPEAKER_07 56:23

Yeah. Yeah. So I I I flew up to Joburg and I saw my friend uh uh Naeem Valley. Okay. Uh who did a great job. Uh it uh it was uh uh so that's a testament to Dr. Valley.

SPEAKER_08 56:38

I just before we move on, I wanted a observation that I just made now. Like all the way back then, right, it's I mean you guys were quite young, you were in the eight like seventies, eighties, and your parents, your mom took you to a dentist. But I'm just thinking now, you know, you said it's like quite quite un-South African.

SPEAKER_09 56:55

But I'm thinking a dentist, Indian dentist that qualified in the 80s must have been super rare.

SPEAKER_07 57:00

It was rare. So so especially one that qualified uh uh South Africa adverts. Because uh, you know, like Dr. Reddy said in his interview, there were there were very few uh token non-whites that were accepted in the 70s. Uh so yeah, it it it it it was it it was rare. Yeah. Most of the guys studied out, studied in India. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 57:25

Uh But my my point was maybe Western Cape.

SPEAKER_07 57:28

I think West Western Cape was still.

SPEAKER_08 57:31

Um like non-white students. Yeah, yeah. But my point was it's it's I I don't think it had anything to do with like, you know, the awareness of oral health at that stage. Just that were probably no one, no professionals available to take someone to. Would you agree? No, no, but there were there were there were there were a lot of people. Not that many compared to now. There must have been about a handful.

SPEAKER_09 57:51

I I just think there's something different about your your mom because uh she knew that you need to go every six months. Yeah, go every six months. That's not a common thing even to this to this day.

SPEAKER_07 58:00

And then also, I mean, on top of that, uh uh I had orthodonti treatment.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 58:05

You know, so so uh my orthodontic treatment started, I think, in about uh 87. Uh so I saw Dr. Siki Singh and uh I had auto, so I observed that a lot. So in my mind, the industry was one of the options. It became one it became an option. It wasn't the the option. I mean that's thanks to Dr. Strinichetti. Definitely. Okay. I mean he's he's definitely one of those people that I said uh that you can count on your fingers that would steer you to What did your parents tell you to do? No, they they they didn't. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't. They sorry they they they they they they left it to me. I mean, whether it would have been uh engineering or uh something in the health sciences, there there was no um they were not telling me. Okay, so you had no choice with the high school, but you didn't ask the the folks. Well, um there was uh there w there was a lot of advice. You know? Don't do law. Uh I think the I think that featured, but it wasn't uh I'm I'm curious. Did did your dad encourage or discourage was he neutral? No, he was neutral about it. If if I had wanted to do it, uh he would he would have supported me. Do you think you encourage your brother to do all the second one? Um my brother wanted to do it. Okay. So he uh so so so so so so he supported him. Okay. You know, he it it's something that he wanted to do. So you applied for what? Kim Eng, Mekenge? I applied uh so so so I started uh actually uh I you know in grade uh quality standard nine, so grade eleven, you know. Uh looking at it. Um so it was at Witz, uh I I I made dentistry my first choice. Okay. Uh second choice I can't even call I I may have put in medicine. I think I did.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:08

Um why Wits? Well there was what were the options? The options were limited. Yeah. Yeah, the uh the options were were Witz and Western Cape. Yeah. Uh for for dentists. I don't think I don't know if uh Pretoria was an option at the time. I don't recall. Uh around what year was this now? So this was uh so I matriculated in nineteen ninety. Okay. So eighty-nine you you're applying in Pleven. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, considering but I think the applications were going in in uh in 1990.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:39

And KZN?

SPEAKER_07 1:00:41

KZN uh KZN I applied for uh there was no there's no dentistry there. There's the dental therapy.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

Yeah. Still to this day, right?

SPEAKER_07 1:00:49

Yeah, yeah, still to this day. I think they tried very hard. They've been trying since the 80s to get a dental school in there. Um and uh in in uh KZN I applied for optometry, uh engineering, uh I think mechanical or I I forgot now. Yeah. Uh so there were a few things that that I did apply for there. But isn't it? And a decision that's gonna shape the rest of your life is just like we have to there's no it was a casual application. Real guidance, they didn't have all these things those days. Not really. They had. Yeah. Uh yeah, we we had uh they had but I mean this this these were the things that I was set on. I decided you know it was so and then in Cape Town I applied at uh I think at UCT for for engineering. I think it was chemical engineering, if I remember correctly. Um and then um so so in my metric yeah uh I uh actually uh the Wits uh the uh uh uh there were I don't recall an interview at Witz. Uh but what I do recall was a test that we had to write. So they had uh set up uh venues so after we did the application. So they was they selected who they wanted to write the test and uh they selected a venue. Okay. University of Durban Westville. Yes, University of Durban Westville. Uh and I remember going into that lecture hall and uh you know writing that uh the the the the the test. So there was a lot of it was sort of an interview, uh but i in written form. You know, that uh that we had to submit. And why I'm saying this now is that the because the memory came back to me uh a few months ago uh when I was invited to the uh uh pediatric dentistry society to do a presentation. Yes. Um and the venue was at UDW. Uh and when I walked into that lecture hall, I realized the last time I was there was in 1990. It was the exact same place. You know, I it was the exact same place. And I mentioned that to you in my presentation, you know, this it was a special moment, you know. I took a selfie with the crowd, uh you know, it was uh that that because that's where I wrote uh um that that that test.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:17

But it's nice that they actually uh had these remote locations.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:21

Who was it, Dr. Reddy that had to physically go and drive from wherever he was to Well his story was in the seventies.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:28

Yeah. So he had to drive at that stage uh you uh if you are non-white, you are not allowed to travel between provinces. Okay. Where you had to get a permit, you know, to go into another province. And uh so so he had to go through all the obstacles. And uh I think while uh if I remember correctly, what he said about the interview was that it was bizarre.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:51

They didn't ask him anything and uh they just uh decided that that that they don't want him, you know, it was that kind of thing. But uh in in in any case, uh that that's what happened, and then uh the the end of the year came and uh the exam was done. Uh I did pretty well. But there's something else that happened in that year that also had a bit of an impact uh uh on the way going forward. Uh and that was uh I I I became ill that year. So uh I you know, I I acquired something and uh you know I wasn't well at all. Um but I still sold soldiered on through the exams. We do it during the year I was I actually wasn't a hundred percent uh at that time. Um and I think m most of it was because uh uh I I I I was actually misdiagnosed. You know, so the end of the year came, uh uh exam was written, and uh uh straight after that, I think the the pressure of everything, uh I ended up being I had to, I ended up being admitted to hospital. So so in in the December of uh 1990, I was uh I was hospitalized. I was diagnosed correctly and you know it was completely treatable, but it would have been nice if uh if it was if it was picked up early. Yeah. You know, see it was just something that uh that there was that was missed. Um at the end of your matric you hospitalized? No, that was a h I mean the the my my entire matric exam was uh it was almost a disaster. But but uh you know I think I I wrote it in it was like sort of in autopilot, you know. I I f from what I knew, I just I just every every exam was a fight. It was an absolute fight because I I was not well through that exam. So so I ended up being in hospital for quite a while. I mean the December, January, you know, I was uh Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so like you know, the physician made sure that uh I was I was okay and then uh then the acceptances came. And I I got accepted everywhere. I mean it was uh t uh back home for whatever I applied, I got accepted. Uh UCT pitz, I can't remember where else. Um so and uh you know, so out of all this then I said, hey no, you know what, uh I I want to do dentistry. Okay. So so so so I mean the other uh careers seemed appealing as well, but dentistry seemed to me the m the the most appealing. I I I I I I wanted to do it at that stage. So maybe also uh wanted wanted to leave home as well, you know. Yeah, you know, and then uh just uh Yeah, but then you could have gone to UCT. I could have gone, I could have gone. There were there were a whole group of friends of mine uh that went and did engineering uh uh at the at UCT. Yeah, you know, the the guys worked who were at Orient. Yeah, yeah. So uh, you know, I it could have been a reunited thing there. But I I I chose I chose dentistry.

SPEAKER_09 1:07:11

Did you know anybody else who was doing like dentistry at the time?

SPEAKER_07 1:07:15

Uh there was a friend of mine who was in primary school. Uh he actually he uh also played a role. You know, I must also thanks for bringing this up. Um unfortunately, so so uh unfortunately he is late. He passed on recently last year actually. Yeah. Uh and um so but he he yes Who is he? Uh Zach Umer. Okay. His name is uh the doctor he was Dr. Zach Umer and his father was a dentist. His father also passed away recently. So but uh unfortunately Zach uh he became ill in this last you know few years and he he didn't make it. But his father was a dentist in town. So I used to spend in primary school, I used to spend time with him, and he used to take me to his father's practice. Yeah. I actually forgot about that. Yeah, you see. Yeah, you know, there's these small instructions over time.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:13

Because I'm just trying to think now. You got hospitalized, and I was like, yeah. Maybe were you in hospital, but you wouldn't have been exposed to dentists in the hospital.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:20

No, no, no, no. There's nothing nothing to do with that. Yeah. So so so so so Zach, I knew Zach was going. Right, okay. So I I knew Zach was going. Because that was going to be my ex question. Because it's a solo decision. Because my my father and Zach's father were friends too. So because I mean they uh uh Zach Zach's uh father, uh Dr. Eunice Umar, he had a practice in Good Hope Center in Queen Street. Um so my they used to meet and you know discuss and say, hey, you know what the boys got in for you know? Cool. So uh so then I got in touch with him and you know they we were excited to go. But um I also remember at the time uh the because I was on a lot of medication and I had to be on that medication for a certain uh time uh for months, uh the physician was not uh happy with me going. Okay. So I I I remember him having this discussion with my father, you know, with me being at the like the absent uh party in the room.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:22

Yeah he was very very paternalistic those days.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:26

And yes, he's uh and I uh you know I I remember the conversation. Maybe you want, he was trying to force you into medicine. That's all. You know, it's like he's not he's not he's not uh he needs to recover properly and then go. So his plan was to uh uh approach uh Witz and uh ask them if they could uh reserve my seat for the next year. Okay. You know, and your father's decision. No, no, no. The physician wanted to do it. Okay. And um and and then I d then I intervened. Right. And I said, no ways. Patient autonomy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I said no, I'm going. I got in now. I don't want to discuss this with any anybody in in the dental school. And uh I I'll be fine. And Mr. C. How does he Mr. C that uh he uh he listened to me. He listened to me. Okay so he said, okay. Then the the the physician uh put a few uh stipulations. He said, All right, look, if you uh by this date, if you show me these results, then uh I'll I'll give you the green light. And um so uh uh apparently I did, and uh you know everything was fine and uh then I I I got ready to go.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:58

Uh how's that? Phew. I don't think I was ready for that. Yeah. That was uh the this is uh this is where uh this is where uh a journey, another journey is going to start. So we we we we we we leave behind the the the the the the school and the uh the the the metric and uh so I I I was I was uh driven to Johannesburg by my parents. Uh they found a place for me to stay in uh with the group of they were not students, but they were uh people uh there they were a group of uh uh guys who were from Durban who had already uh uh qualified. Of an attorney, uh one guy was uh a civil engineer uh and one was a draftsman, somebody who I met very recently at a re uh reunion. Um and the three of them were they were staying together, uh they were all from uh actually they they were all from Pallock.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:03

So somehow the families knew of them and you know found out about them and you know, and they say, okay, here's these the three mature guys, uh they got space for you in their place. They're renting uh a house in Mayfe and uh go and go go and stay with them. So parents uh drove me up and I think my younger uh my my my my middle brother, the one who's an attorney, I think he was with. Um This is ninety-one, huh? This is ninety-one.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:34

Yeah. And were you looking forward to you were you excited? I was excited. Uh I was quite excited. Uh why away from just being away from home or yeah, yeah, yeah. Being away from home, being free. Yeah. You know, it was uh all all all all of the above. Dentistry, maybe dentistry, yeah, maybe dentistry or making new friends, or you know, it's like it's a new new world, you know. So get there. It was quite an emotional moment, you know, seeing them drive off. And you know, it was who cried? Me? Okay. Um sure my mom. Yeah. Uh I'm sure I'm I'm uh I'm sure. And uh yeah, that's the so so so I I got I got left behind there.

SPEAKER_09 1:13:19

Uh still did you know washing and and cooking and things like that. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:26

She she used to she used to send food. She used to she used to send frozen food. That's probably why she was crying. She's like, how is this guy gonna take? Yeah, no, no. She used to send every time somebody was driving up to Johannesburg, there was a cooler bag coming with with uh with frozen food, which everybody would enjoy in the house. You know what I mean? It was so yeah, no, that that she did that for years and years. Um But uh so what's uh uh what's was nice. I mean, who takes you for registration and things like that? Uh registration. Look do you remember your first day?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:55

I can't I don't think I can remember my first day.

SPEAKER_09 1:13:57

But I'm sure my parents were around in the background.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:00

It's a tough one, uh, yeah. I don't think they were around.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:06

No, I don't think they were around. Because you see, I was in uh in in uh in Mayfair uh in in Sixth Avenue. So what we had to do to get to Witz uh was actually uh uh walk down to the main road. Right. So you had to go under a railway and tunnel, get on to the main road and take a bus into town. Okay. To Elof Street. And uh remember Elof Street from Monopoly. Monopoly, yeah, it's expensive. Yeah. Yeah, so so that was the the the expensive plus we used to go to Elof Street and we should take a bus to Bramfonteen. But it's scary. Uh it was actually not. Okay. Because Durban is small, still small. Still small, but this was actually exciting.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:49

But then bridge you speak about uh railway line. It's like a daily no-go area. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:54

So I I told the story because uh a few years ago, uh but I I have a patient uh that comes now and again, he's he's at uh I think it's University of Johannesburg or he's a professor there. And uh he um so I told him the story. And he said, you know what, try doing that and see what happens. You know, it's uh but uh but that's that was my uh that was my routine. I used to take two buses uh to get to Witz. Uh and then I think I did you join Zach uh Zach stayed somewhere else. And then eventually I think I joined Zach's lift club. Okay. Yeah. I I take two buses to campus. Yeah, I should take two bus two buses to campus. From Mayfair? Yeah. And then and then take take two buses back.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:43

Yeah. How was dental school?

SPEAKER_07 1:15:46

Uh look, it wa it it uh it was first year. So first year you're not actually exposed. Are you in main campus? In main campus, main campus, east campus, and you combined with uh medics, pharmacists, uh what were the demographics like?

SPEAKER_09 1:16:02

You because your whole life you're in Indian school, so yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:04

So you there was uh a lot of whites, a lot, but also a lot of Indians, because I mean now we were going through that transition. So the the uh and few blacks at the time. So few Africans, uh uh uh uh mostly whites, but uh uh a decent number of uh of Indians because I think at the time uh uh Woods was take was taking a lot of uh they were taking a lot of Indians. Okay. You know, they they were they were uh instead of taking uh Africans. Yeah. But we were we we were going through that transition where apartheid was being dismantled. Oh, you know, the dismantled. In the process of transition, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:16:46

Elections were the next year after you started.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:49

I think it was uh ninety four was the elections.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:56

Yeah, sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:57

So yeah, I think there were there was the referendum and what have you was happening at that time. So uh party it was, you know, now you could go into white cinemas. But I'm because this was the first time you were interacting with white people as your peers.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:12

Exactly.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:12

Right. Exactly, yeah. That's another experience. So that there was it was a different experience. Um But all the Indians hung around with with each other, all the blacks. Yeah. It was still very much the Africans were in the minority actually. Yeah. At that time. Um but I saw the the transition happening uh you know as the decade progressed.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:38

So how did you handle the freedom of being without the other?

SPEAKER_07 1:17:40

Oh yeah, yeah, no, it was great. Uh I I I I think uh um uh maybe I went a little bit overboard with racism. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. So I'm asked. So so so so so so now you you know you you're gonna hear about my stumbles here. Okay. You know, this is where uh things get a little bit interesting. So at the same time, you must be on I'm on a lot of medication. Okay. Right? Uh and I've got which which which nobody knows about. So people watching. You're blaming the meds. No, no, no, no. I'm gonna say I'm gonna blame the meds. I'm gonna blame the meds. I blame myself. But uh you know, it was actually uh I I I can't give you uh graphic details of that here. Yeah. But I I can focus on it. Only what you're comfortable with. Maybe I can't be able to do it. Only what you're comfortable. But uh no, actually, I mean it was it was a fun year. It was a fun year. It was uh uh maybe too much of fun. And um uh unfortunately uh I didn't make it. Yeah. It was uh it it wa i it was my first failure.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:46

It it it was. I think I underestimated it uh completely. And uh uh I think uh by the time I pulled up my socks, it was a bit too late. The earmarks were uh uh were were not good. Okay. In the in the first year. In the first year. So you started pulling up socks. You you you built a few. I mean we we did uh some last minute scrambles and uh what have you. Were you going out and uh jolling a lot or what was it?

SPEAKER_06 1:19:15

You don't have to give anything you're comfortable with.

SPEAKER_09 1:19:18

But what did you do what did the guys in ninety-two do those days? Like was there comedy clubs and all sorts of things? No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:25

Yeah? Uh no, it w it it's cinema, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean uh it it wasn't uh playing cards and stuff. Getting together with friends, going out, yeah, no bridge. You know, it was it was just spending time with friends and yeah, you know, it's socializing, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:19:43

Because no you you you you don't have to go to class if you don't want to.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:46

Exactly. So unfortunately it was it did it didn't but it it was uh it was uh it wasn't just uh I mean it was it was a failure uh with uh supplementaries and uh which also unsuccessful. Yeah. Um but uh which is notorious for excluding uh so that was coming gonna come to that. I actually got excluded. Oh really? Yeah in that first chapter. Yeah, yeah. They excluded me. So this is where I came in to this is where I learned about something called the face committee. Right. How do you sp it I I know it very well. What's face So Fa FACE stands for the Faculty Advisory Committee on Exclusions. So what FACE So now there's a process now. F-A-C-E. I don't know if it still exists. Yeah, no, no, I'm just making a note, it's not an advisory committee for exclusions. Yeah, yeah. That's all I can do. They have their own faculty. Yeah, they've got their own experience. You know? So now you have to go before the face committee and motivate as to why they must take you back to the drugs there's later. No, no, no. Uh I can't I can't remember the the motivation clearly. It was it wasn't uh It's like a verbal motivation. No, no, it was a written yeah, there was a written thing. So I mean I went through all the the the the drama at home. Yeah, you know, I mean uh you know the the parents were disappointed and upset and you know it was they're paying for this also. They're paying for this. I mean I got no birth three, I got no, you know, it was like, you know, and and um uh I let it down. It's why it wasn't easy for them to come up with that money to you know to to to to send me to. So it there was a I mean the fact when I blame my my i illness on it. I mean it was only to a certain point. After that I was fine. Yeah. Uh I mean I I I took medication for that few months and after that it was uh that was all over. Uh your dad might have said, Yeah, you see, that doctor told you, wait till next year. Yeah, well actually, you know, that that was I mean I was thinking back, maybe I should have. Yeah. Maybe. I don't I don't know if it would have made a difference. But in any case, uh I got back in. Wait, who who helps you draft uh motivation? Did Mr. Cedar help or not? Or did you go to friends? Um No no, he he he played a role. Yeah. Uh also uh uh also uh and and uh an uncle of mine was also an at uh attorney. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:22:24

More important to you, what was like the uh motivating, primary motivating factor that you use?

SPEAKER_07 1:22:30

I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_09 1:22:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:34

Away from home.

SPEAKER_09 1:22:35

Uh you know, you you you're you're trying to get used to a new environment or using medication. Obviously the thing is like a primary thing, I would say. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:43

You know what I I'm really not a hundred percent sure because m my story is gonna get more interesting. Did you have to go meet this face committee?

SPEAKER_09 1:22:51

Face to face. Uh so to speak. You would have remembered, I think, if you had to.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:56

It would have been.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:57

I remember meeting uh so so actually uh I I think I did. Uh I I remember meeting them. There was actually uh so so so a lot's gonna get revealed in this in this probing of yours. Because uh because I went before phase twice now this first time. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So so the second time I remember a little bit more clearly. Yeah. Yeah, the f this first time I can't remember what the I think the motivating fict factors may have been uh the illness and they may have been supporting documents from from from from from the medical doctor. My father put it together. Right. He he he go he he put a good case together and they took me back. Yeah. You know? So uh the second year I I uh I repeat it, maybe not all the subjects. I g I I think it was two. Yeah. And uh but I mean even with two if you get below a certain thing it's uh it's a it's exclusion. So and and I did okay. You know, it was it was a little bit more of a relaxed year. I I didn't have to attend uh uh everything, but I was there. Yeah. And and and I got the job done. So that was now ninety two. Right. Then comes uh ninety three. So ninety-three, uh ninety-three was so so so in so in those years there were there was no we didn't know anything about dentistry at the time with that old curriculum. So nine it was just anatomy, physiology, um, and I think biochemistry. And uh I I I think uh, you know, a lot happened in that year. Uh I was I was you know, I was there having my fun. Uh but I I I think uh also underestimated, you know. Didn't uh didn't put my wall into it. And uh uh it it was in that year well here come the excuses, uh because it was in that year that I I I lost my maternal grandmother. You know? So but but uh but I mean not an excuse for it's it's an excuse for my it's an excuse for my failure. Yeah, you know. But uh but I didn't make it unfortunately. Right. So so so so so this so the story is actually building up to how failure is the stepping stone to success. Right, yeah, yeah. I I think. Um but uh yeah, so so so in that yeah, I I did so now here now I go before face again. Right. So now it's see that again. Let's see that again. This is a tough one. So I mean uh this is a tough one. It's okay. I go through all the the heartbreak at home, and you know, it's like hey, uh yeah, I mean I'm going through my own depression now. What the heck did I just do? You know? And uh here we had to get uh I I actually uh uh consulted a psychologist when I saw things were going south. Yeah, I started planning for this. I I I when I was like you said, when I when it was ominous then I I I I started planning for it. And uh, you know, I so I saw a psychologist at the university. Okay, in the university and uh started discussing because uh there were two deaths in the family that year. Uh one was uh my my grandmother and one was my mother's sister. And uh so and there were other factors, uh can't quite uh uh but in any case we put something together. Uh my father and my uncle, in fact, actually, you know, I met my uncle recently, he was also an attorney. He was I I actually he was in in parliament. He was one of one of the the the deputy ministers. Okay. Um so and I told him, hey, thanks, man. You know what you realize you wrote such a great letter for me. Good that they took me back. He said, Oh, welcome, son. You know, it's okay. So so in any case, uh they they they put the motivation together, provided death certificates, provided psychologist reports, and and I got back in. So this is this is how 93 went. Yeah. Now we come to 94. Now Zach is already well on. Um all my friends are like two years ahead. They're moving. Well ahead. I'm making new friends every year. You know, it's like, hey, hi guys. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:41

Yeah. See, it was all part of the old timer then. But there's a job. But with season, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:51

First year is the best two years of your life, right? People always say that about uh first year. Yeah, it's first first uh well, first and second year, best four years.

SPEAKER_09 1:28:01

But can you survive Witz? I mean Wits is notorious for we're not even there yet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:07

We're not even there.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:08

I mean, I'm talking about the exclusion part.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:09

Oh yes. Oh, okay, okay, okay. I thought you were talking about the dental school part. Yeah, let's dental school. Well, we're not even there yet. Right. We're still in Oh yeah. We still we're still in main campus. Main campus. Well, dental school used to be on main campus. Okay. Uh back in the day. Uh so so then comes so so then I uh get back uh 9 uh 4 it would be. Right. Yes. Then I get back into second year, I repeat, and uh I I I think I I I woke up at that stage. Yeah. Because I I studied and I made it. There was no there was there was no problem. Yeah. And you're older too. You're 22, you're a bit more mature.

SPEAKER_09 1:28:52

I'm assuming you were 18 in matric. Yeah, I was 17.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:56

I was 17. Yeah. Did you meet your missus on campus?

SPEAKER_08 1:28:59

No. Long after. No, no, long after. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:02

Yeah, long after I qualified. Yeah, dental school tell us? So, so so then so so then comes third yeah. So third year uh used to be uh uh pathology, microbiology combined with the medics and uh and prosthetics. So that was only like a first introduction. So just prosthetic dentistry in the laboratory where we dangers and things. Yeah, exactly. Only that. You know. And I was there, I was determined. I uh I you know because I knew I mean uh uh Witz at that time, uh third year for the medics and the dentals, uh somebody said they used to call third year the graveyard. Yeah. Killer year. It was the killer year. You you if you make third year your your way. Uh and the reason for that was uh mostly the pathology. The pathology was very intense. Uh there were very there was very strict negative marking. Uh it was essays, uh 10 mark essays, quarter mark effect, uh, and a cold fact. You know, it's so so I was determined to uh overcome that. And uh so I I I didn't miss okay, we had our friends and we had our, you know, uh but I kept my hand on my books. And uh especially the pathology, I studied it really hard. I mean, I made summaries of every disease, you know, like a one-page summary, and I filled my whole wall up in my flat. So by that stage I wasn't boarding. I mean, over the years I was in the f in the former years, I uh I used to I used to board. Uh at this stage I had a flat uh in Brahmfantin, which was across the road from the university. Uh but the the the the uh pathology and microbiology was was at the med school in Parktown. Okay. So we had to travel for that. Um but I I I made sure that I knew my path inside out. You know, I mean I I know I think I failed the first test uh because I spotted ROM and I just didn't let it go. Uh I uh so I I did I did pretty well um uh in in the uh in the path. Um but uh encountered, you know, yak, you're waiting for it now. Another little stumbling block. There was there was a slight uh stumbling block in in in in in third year. So now we're talking about 1995. Um and that was uh in prosthetics. Oh, of course. Yeah, yeah. So now, I mean, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm sitting and doing my dentures and what have you, and you know, and I'm thinking this is a walk in the park, you know. Simple course. And I put all my focus into the difficult subject. I mean, this was not easy, not not difficult to study for. It was a very easy uh subject to study for. So come end of the year, uh I whacked path. No problem. Micro, uh, I had a um I I I was a bit I I think I put too much effort into the path, and the micro was a bit borderline. I had a passfield viva, if I remember correctly, uh which actually turned into a SUP. Okay. Uh the the um so so you know uh and then uh surprisingly uh I mean to my complete surprise, uh I failed prosthetics. So uh and I was the only one. And uh so so I uh I had a sub there too. So I said, okay, fine, my best sub. Two subs. Yeah. So studied uh so now this all this happens like in November or so, and even the subs too happened in that time. It's not a wait till January. So I stayed, stayed behind, all my friends were born home. Uh I write the micro sub, write the prosthetic sub. Then I got my uh went and got got my result, came out soon. And I got went to med school, I saw the result. I mean, there's nothing online at that point in time. Uh you know, you had to go and stand to make it and uh so so uh yeah, I passed the the micros up. I said, right, I'm away. And then I go to the prosthetics building, which was in uh I don't know if you know Bramfonteen, but there was uh it was next to the dental school uh to get my results. And I mean I'm the only one who wrote it, so I'm looking at that board and there's uh nothing on the phone cross. And then uh then I saw I saw the lecturer uh and so you know, greeted and what have you, and uh she took me into her office. She said, I need to talk to you. So I said, Oh okay, all right, fine. You know what? I just came, I got uh you know, I made like Pat Micro and you know, I'm you know, you're excited waiting for the result. And uh that that was actually quite quite a devastating moment because she told me you didn't make it.

SPEAKER_08 1:34:12

So what that feels like.

SPEAKER_07 1:34:14

Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, here when I finally woke up uh and uh was uh putting an effort into the whole thing. But then she went a little bit further. Um and she told me, look, I'm doing you a favor because you're not meant for this job. You you're not meant to be a dentist. You know, you're not cut out for it and uh it's something you're not gonna be good at. So her um her logic was that it was a f it was a kind favor to me. You know, to uh by failing Yeah. And uh so she so she said, look, you know, go home, think about uh another career option now, you know. Just look at the different faculties and uh perhaps this you know there's this something else that you find, come apply to another faculty and uh and and leave dentistry now. So hey, you know, I was broken. I was absolutely broken. Uh uh and alone, I mean all my friends had gone home. And you I mean it was not even uh I think I don't I don't even think I had a cell phone in that I don't think cell phones were uh very few people had cell phones. So I mean it was call box. So I phoned home, you know. I said, hey, this is a story. And uh Did you cry at the time? Yeah, I must have. Yeah. Uh but uh I mean hearing the story, I want to cry. No, no, I'll tell you exactly what happened. So so in any case, uh so my father said, I told him, uh, you know what, uh they said, never mind, just come home. You know, uh it was like uh shh. They I I think from their perspective, I mean I was handling it. I was handling everything that was happening, even my in my former delinquent years. But I I I think for them, they were also in some way trying to protect uh my mental health. You know, it was like, okay, look, I mean, you you didn't you didn't succeed here, but let's the best reaction you can hope for from parents. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, there was no uh outrage. I said, you know, this is what happened, you know. So uh I then I told my father, you know what, uh I'm coming home now.

SPEAKER_08 1:36:37

So there was no exclusion, but yeah, that's all my question.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:40

What I was done with face. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:36:45

So you could have just repeated Pros then.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:47

I could have. So but but now uh she made me believe. That's a terrible thing. What a thing to say. This wasn't for me. You know? Um so so so I packed my flat up, I gave notice. Uh I had a car at that stage. Uh in that year, I think was the first year I got a car. Uh I think. Uh maybe I had it the year before, I'm not sure. Uh but uh I th I think it was that year. Um and uh so I packed everything. I mean it was a hatchback, you know, and it uh filled the bush and dropped everything and you know the back seat was full with all my stuff. And I drove back to Durban. Uh expecting to not return. You know. And then I I I I I sat depressed that whole December month, you know, just just watching TV. Yeah. You know, it was it uh and and at the time uh my cousin from Parlock, my mother's uh brother's son was getting ready to uh uh go to because he was at he was at uh at uh at the at Natal University and uh he was doing engineering uh and uh I think he got excluded in that first six months. You know, I uh and and and then he things things were not working out, but he was getting ready to go to uh Santo Domingo to do medicine. Okay. So he and I planned, I said, okay, maybe I'll come with you now, you know. So he said, right, great. You know, so now that became my my plan B. You know. Then January came and I was actually, you know, so uh uh you know, this was m my parents it wasn't gonna be easy for them. I mean, they would have have had to come up with funds to to send me. I mean, this is now going studying overseas. So I looked at that, I was actually, you know, but they were still trying gonna try and make a plan to to send me. Because now I said, you know what, uh I'm not cut out to be a dentist. I'm not gonna make it in this field. So let's let's uh let's look at another option. And then I said, all right, I'll go with my cousin and we'll uh I'll do I'll do medicine. Then when I l when I when I when I looked at the amounts that were going to be required In dollars as well. In dollars. Uh I I actually didn't want to subject my parents to that. And uh I said, no wait, hold on. I'll go back. Let me go back. And and and I said, you know what, to help with what she said, uh I'll I'll I'll go back and I'll make it work. I'll I'll make it work. And uh, you know, you know, you know, you know, uh I so I went back and um I it was a it was it was a brilliant year. It was it was actually I mean from a student uh fun perspective, okay, I made new friends too. So it's the third call. So I made new friends. And uh and then that's where I actually uh uh then I then I then I moved into uh uh a house uh with uh three medical students who were from Durban. Uh and we are very, very close friends. Uh uh one two became an anaethetist, and one became a gynecologist, uh, who unfortunately passed on uh last year. Sure. Just very suddenly, and it was very sad. But um so uh so the so so so the four of us uh we stayed together um not far from here actually. Initially we stayed here, it's uh somewhere in in in an area called Bez Valley.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:50

Yeah, that's not far. Then we moved outside town. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:53

Then we moved to to Fordsburg, and uh they they they became my, you know, but uh at university too now I made uh new friends. But my day only started at 2 p.m. So the prosthetics was from 2 to 4 or 4.30, and that was my day. Uh you know, so I had the whole morning to uh asleep, yeah, yeah. Wake up at leisure and go to, you know, and at night, uh, you know, late nights. Late nights. So uh but but I wanna I w I I want to I want to just go one step back because you asked me uh about it's very coincident before I forget, uh uh it was very coincidental uh and uh upsetting. Uh about three years ago, uh I went to renew my license, my driver's license, uh, and so I chose to go to the uh uh uh Amanzim Toti uh branch. And you know, renewing your license, or uh it's a whole day affair now. You have to you have to sit in a queue and move. You know, you'd be there early. So next to me was a lady, I don't know, I uh I don't know her name. Um an Indian lady. And uh so we after a while of moving benches, you know, we started we started talking, uh, you know, and we we had a we we had a chat and she then then she asked me, well, you know, why what do I do? And then I told her, and then she said, uh she said, no, her son, her son was doing dentistry. Uh so I said, oh, okay, okay, what is what's his name? And yeah, I didn't know him uh at all. I didn't recognize the name. Um because it was, I think, after uh I was there. Um and then uh then she she told me that uh he reached third year and he failed this same subject. And he was told the same thing by the same person. Wow. And he believed. He believed her, like I did, but I changed my belief. Um and uh he uh he actually then he then he changed careers. So he I I I think he went into BCOM or he did something else after that. Uh but uh you know just hearing it uh it upset me because it shows that you know it was like something that was uh And it can have a knock-on effect, I mean a butterfly effect.

SPEAKER_09 1:43:25

I mean, if you decided to take that person's advice all those years ago, you wouldn't be here, we wouldn't be seeing you going and speaking at events and things. You would have been a different person.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:37

No, no, no, I would have been a different person. Definitely.

SPEAKER_08 1:43:39

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, but I think what you were about to say was that it it wasn't something that was said in isolation to you. This is something that's clearly it's a trend.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:46

It was a trend. Yeah. There was a trend.

unknown 1:43:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:43:49

That's that's terrible, actually. So But it's not the first time we're hearing this about that uh lecture, but about the subject of prostate alpha.

SPEAKER_09 1:44:01

I wonder why.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:02

It just it's saddened. I accepted it. Yeah. I accepted it and uh went back and uh I faced it. Uh uh you know it uh uh uh And you pass and I passed and uh yeah, I mean it was a it that subject was a walk in the park. Yeah. And to fail somebody in it uh is not justifiable. It's not even something that we do in in practice. I mean it's the technician's job.

SPEAKER_09 1:44:32

Yeah, but to discourage an entire career, because that's just one subject, and then to sort of say that it applies to everything in the whole career, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:40

It's also wrong. It's a wrong thing to do. It it was absolutely wrong. And uh uh I I accepted it. And but the following year, uh I knew now now I was going to dental school proper. Because I mean if you look at it, right? All your dental training in back then was acquired in two and a half years. Fourth year, fifth year, and the sixth year was uh a six-month year ending in June. Um and and that the the that that was that was traumatic. I mean the the Witz Dental School at at the time had that r reputation of being very uh you know, it was like a it was like a military camp. You know, the I mean they they they it it was uh very heavy-handed. Uh you there was no I I didn't feel c but but I went in uh I went in psychologically expecting prepared. Prepared and also my experience now uh uh from this prosthetics uh created uh in my mind uh mistrust of everybody. Okay. I trusted nobody. Yeah. Uh because I mean this lecturer on the surface was fantastic. Yeah. You know, I mean uh uh she she would she was a wonderful person to talk to and it was uh so I went in with with a certain amount of mistrust. Uh and uh I expected I mean we heard the stories before we got in from I I had lots of friends that went through it already. Uh but uh so uh I just I just laid low. Uh I didn't and I did what I had to do. Uh and made it yeah. And I and I got out in the in the two and a half years. Uh they were strict.

SPEAKER_09 1:46:39

I mean there's no Did you have any were there any subjects or fields that you felt, okay, I want to get into afterwards, or what was the plan after dental school?

SPEAKER_07 1:46:49

Oh, yeah. Yeah you know, uh there was something else I wanted to mention before I uh I spoke of that. Uh I actually I was I was thinking of Max Fac.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:47:02

Uh I I actually enjoyed the Max Fact blocks. You know, uh observing the the surgeons and what it seemed like uh something that interested me at the time. Um and uh but uh you know after after I when I when I qualified, uh I spent more time with uh Max Facts. So I used to go I used to go to I should I used to join uh Dr. Hafig, the Max Fax surgeon. Uh he's uh you know he uh he does he does uh uh once a week at King Edward Hospital. And after a few weeks of observing, I felt eight I I think I'm not gonna do this. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was it was it it was a bit hecty. Yeah. But uh there was something else I want to mention, if it comes back to mind, I'll uh about dental school. Okay. Look, uh I mean uh the the lecturers were hard. Uh they it it it uh uh uh most of the time I think it was not uh justifiable. I think they they broke a lot of students. Um I don't think that approach uh can apply uh nowadays. Uh uh but uh when when when I when I look at it uh in in in retrospect, uh they created also uh an an individual or clinician uh that whilst working left little room for error. Okay. So I mean I'm I'm just giving you a positive here, a big big posit positive in my mind. You see that as a positive. I don't know. I'm see, well in my Yeah. It's interesting. I I I I'm just I'm just trying to draw a positive off of it. Yeah, and and I did. I think I think they instilled something uh in you. I I mean I can't respect the approach. But the outcome is is there the outcome was there, but now you had to take your post-trauma with it. Yeah. But do you think that is any different nowadays? Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, here's this. I mean, 2022, uh uh I was uh I'm I'm just jumping now, two decades now. It uh uh we'll we'll rewind again. Uh I I was uh doing uh uh uh style italiano roadshow uh with uh Riccardo Tonini, uh Corney Smith, and uh few others, I think Isaac Sibui, uh and uh so we we did Cape Town, uh Joburg Durban. So I was in Job and my my lecture, my portfolio was uh on C B C T and Endodontics. So uh so when I did the Joburg one, uh then uh uh in the lunch break, uh Ibi and uh uh Seda Tutler came to me and said, hey, you know what? Years. Would you consider just coming in, you know, doing a uh like, you know, a guest lecture. Just just just explaining to them w exactly what you did now, bre breaking down the CBCT and how to manipulate and diagnose with it, you know? And uh so uh then I told him, you know, it took me two decades to get over the post-trauma. Going back there. You want me to and and then and that's and then E B said E B said no no don't worry. Now it's the other way around. The students traumatized the lectures. So the trauma I said okay I wish I were I was in the time I could have traumatized some of those lecturers. So so uh I I don't think it's that way uh anymore.

SPEAKER_09 1:50:55

Yeah I don't think things are different yeah I don't think for the better I think people will argue it's for the worse some will say look now the standards are dropped and this and that.

SPEAKER_07 1:51:04

Yeah some can you can argue that but I mean you know uh like um I heard uh uh w one of your guests uh Dr. Faisal Mansoor saying that uh there was no nurturing they didn't take you and nurture you nurture an individual and and and find your strong points or your weak points and try and strengthen your weak points you know so it wasn't uh uh a human to human human interaction if you had a problem it was your problem it was and I I got told that many times you know hey you know I'm you know I don't know what to do. We always say that is not my problem. It's your problem. You figure it out. It was as simple as that. There was I mean there were some there were some kind lecturers. I mean I'm not I'm sorry I'm painting everybody with the same brush uh there were some that stood out in my mind that stand out but I'm saying that that that was a general theme.

SPEAKER_09 1:52:00

But also like you know people might misinterpret things as as you said as you painting people in a negative light or whatever, putting them in a negative light. We we're not criticizing them. I think that was maybe the mindset at the time, the paradigm of teaching.

SPEAKER_07 1:52:14

And you know what it was actually from way before that. Yeah. And and the the the medics they had a fantastic experience. Okay we were like in different worlds. I mean their lecturers and lectures were there was nobody that was instilling this kind of military rule on them. So it was just a way of thinking I guess it's it was it was the dental school that was that way. And and I spoke to uh a a colleague of mine who's a who's a patient of mine now I can mention his name he's a Max Fax surgeon uh Dr. Salvan Leviton he retired uh recently uh and he told me it was that like that when he was there as well he said the the medics they just enjoyed the the uh the dental so I mean he was also subjected to it they were they were all uh it was that that was the theme so what was the plan after dental school? So the plan uh after dental school so so so I I graduated so I went there in 91 and I got out in June of 99. Okay yeah yeah if you do that made the most of Wits if you I spent a decade yeah I mean uh I spent you sharpened the edge at Wits I spent in the spent my my my my my no not really not really so so so so mid-99 You give Wits the edge you know I I get out in mid-99 June ninety nine all excited uh were you excited yeah yeah yeah I was excited to get the hell just to leave many yeah or just to leave just to get uh I'm going home yeah you know I made it so I'm finally going home survived yeah survived uh good few falls yeah uh and I'm out of there and um there was no comserve those days no comservation I think comserv was like two I don't know two thousand two somewhere around there so uh so there's no comserve you can go straight into practice and uh I spent um uh that the the six months actually just looking for locums in and around Durban, you know? Just approaching people, going to the practices it wasn't actually it wasn't so easy to get a job. Okay. Yeah it it lot of my friends from uh that year uh and the previous years were just going to the UK because uh there was no exam to write. So UK only cut votes off in uh 2001.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:54:40

So I mean up until now I mean I went I went to the UK and I registered with the General Dental Council. When did you do that? I did that in uh I did that when I had a bit of money to go uh which was in 2000. Okay. And then before the cutoff before the cutoff no no no I can go there now too.

SPEAKER_09 1:54:58

Oh because uh yeah because I qualified 2000 so it doesn't matter when so you can go register there now because of you okay yeah I mean I I was on the the GDC for for years.

SPEAKER_07 1:55:10

I think I I paid that subscription for like a decade. It's expensive also isn't it yeah then it then I I I I felt it's it's it's getting a bit ridiculous because I I don't want to go there. So um so I stopped paying it.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:55:23

And then I then then I started renewing things uh recently after the looting in Durban but you know my wife uh has been trying to convince me to leave this country for a long time now. And finally when the looting happened I you know she there was some excitement because I started contacting from her side and unfortunately you know for her uh that feeling went away after after things subsided. Yeah yeah yeah we were back in paradise in my head yeah yeah so so so that six months I didn't work much okay uh I had a few locums uh actually there were only two practices that I worked at uh and then not not a lot uh like a like uh maybe some weekends here and there and uh a couple of weeks here but most of the time I was just I was chilling I was I was just relaxing. Right. Yeah yeah yeah enjoying the beach swimming uh see lucky you come from mines you see yeah yeah some some people have been looking for work I didn't no I mean but did you go to Germany or the UK everyone uh well let's just put it this way luck luckily you had the luxury to be able to I could do it yeah yeah I could do it and then I thought you were living at home at that time I was living at home yeah you weren't married yeah you still didn't meet the Mrs No no no no no she comes in the picture of old fashioned few years later the Mrs the Mrs the Mrs you know he knows he needs anything exactly I'm being respectful he stepped back not white TV he's stepped back a generation a couple of years I think it's good for your generation also the Mrs is not on the scene oh no six chilling what then what happens? Well what happens is um so there was a practice uh so I was but at the same time I was looking for practices uh to buy to buy yeah yeah okay because I mean we could just buy I mean we didn't need the because you get the money like from banks I think I mean Norman Kai told us those days you could get the money for keeping away irresponsibly it was easy.

SPEAKER_09 1:57:28

Really?

SPEAKER_07 1:57:29

Yeah it was it was really easy it was MLS Bank. So towards the end of the year um I saw this practice for sale uh it was in the center of Durban Street it was in town okay like a few meters away from Anjuman so so this practice was uh in an arcade called uh Bula Arcade um and it used to run between uh Leopold Street and Prince Edward Street.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:57:55

Um and and the the the owner was selling uh the owner is currently the dean of uh UWC. Oh Professor Professor was young.

SPEAKER_09 1:58:12

Oh well he must have just started it back then and then well no he was there for a while.

SPEAKER_07 1:58:17

He's aging well I don't know how old he is yeah he was there he was there for from I think the early nineties because I I I think at that I think the practice was owned so the the the the initial uh person that started that practice uh was Dr. Sundram uh the orthodontist in uh in the early 80s and then he changed hands asking I think after uh Dr. Sundram uh went to specialize um eventually Dr. Patel and Ratan uh bought uh that practice and I think that uh Prof. Yangopal was doing a locum for them. He was running it in the early 90s and he uh if I if I remember correctly and then they they s uh they sold it to him. So so so I saw that practice for sale uh and uh I went and had a look at it. It wasn't far from my father's office too. So we we we we we had a meeting with him my father sent uh one of his somebody with me a negotiator one for the face committee this was a business negotiator this was we were not appealing to those days are over there's different world there's different uh departments yeah so he sat in his uh officer and he wanted to sell soon because he had gotten in for to to specialize in Comden. Yeah so so yeah so we uh we reached an agreement uh c contacted MLS Bank we were nothing to my name I just googled MLS Bank because you mentioned it MLS Bank was a specialized South African bank focused on financial services for medical and dental professionals.

SPEAKER_09 2:00:11

Did you know this?

SPEAKER_07 2:00:11

Yeah I never knew about this we spoke about it once before and it was about how like irresponsible they were but we never mentioned I didn't know there was a bank specifically for specifically yeah okay go on yeah interesting I didn't know yeah so um the negotiations and then negotiation happened we agreed on a on a on a figure yeah I I didn't say much in that yeah you know and uh you were just the clinician in the room. No no yeah I was and we signed we pr the documents were prepared and we signed and I just I just took over. So like six months after dental school Euro practice order. With having like a few weeks of locum experience I I I just went straight straight into it. So this was now that brings us now to the year 2000. Right. Now we're in the millennium Y2K Y2K January 2000 that's when I started uh the practice good time to start nice around number look I mean so far I'm keeping the the chronology quite simple yeah eighties was school yeah nineties was university millennium it's not difficult uh you know so we started in January that's why you were so long at Fritz you wanted to make sure it's easy for this story easy editing yeah the naughties were you expecting that story no not at all me too I honestly wasn't expecting it.

SPEAKER_09 2:01:43

I don't think uh you know nobody will know uh only a handful of people that know you will know. You know actually you know you don't even know as you were saying yeah sorry carry on yeah no you want to finish it what you were saying yeah like you know it's it's more about the journey than uh yeah than the destination I mean look at where you are now you're like one of the most successful uh we can't say endodontists but dentists with with a special interest in endodontics.

SPEAKER_07 2:02:08

You know in 2016 I I I did a presentation yeah I remember the the the the the the year and in the in the audience I saw uh yeah a lot of the guys that looked familiar like you know from I can't place which year they were with me and which year the you know which year I fell behind them at university but uh I I I I I didn't so I told them look in case you're wondering I am that guy who missed all his lectures the same guy same guy but I'm trying very hard to make up for it by doing his presentations. So I'm trying I'm trying guys so but how do you become that person? Let's get there now. Yes okay let's oh let's get through town first. Yeah f let's get through work. I mean something must have taken you there. Yeah so so so the the the the the the practice in the C B D was a very good practice. It was it was a uh it was a busy practice really busy. Two chairs uh but it was uh it it was a lot of hard work where there were a lot of extractions you know so so there was so the the the there was a low income group uh a a bit uh a bit of middle income groups it was a mix uh what did you do I I used to warm up in the morning with like ten extractions you know it's just like I used to just get there that's my warm-up you know that was my warm-up so I had two chairs one chair was for extractions it numbed the patient and you know go and start another procedure in another chair and uh you know it just went on and on and on like that did it start off busy it started yeah yeah because it was existing yeah it was existing practice it started off busy you're not scared oh yeah I was scared but I I think I was no actually not man I I I I I I braved it. Yeah or maybe it prepared you for that like I I felt I could do it and I just did it. When I did ComSav I I had the benefit of having like the you know the the superior superior as well you were alone right now I was alone I was alone I I being here because you didn't have com serve that must be straight into things yeah that's why I'm asking I figured it out as I was going along yeah you know I mean I was uh I was I was figuring it out as I as I went along you know and oh I had friends we used to chat and what have you you know I mean this situation that situation but it it was a very very busy practice um but uh uh a lot of hard work and I feel like uh after a w after a while I started developing a bit of like burnout there you know because uh it it it was uh at the same time uh the i i it was uh uh it was a medical aid and cash practice right where we were charging low cash rates uh and then uh accepting medical aids and uh even though medical aids were still a bit decent uh uh at that time uh there were a lot of rejections and it was difficult to recover uh funds from patients and also we had uh you know uh I had uh uh cash patients too who uh would take you for a ride you know so you know so so so so there were there was that and you know I I accepted it but after a while uh I think uh the the the burnout and the administrative uh the administration started getting to me and I felt I wanted a bit more uh from from from uh you know uh actually I felt I wanted something different.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:41

Yeah so so uh so I looked at uh I I felt like uh after about maybe maybe about five years. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:05:55

So I'm gonna I'm just go go so so the the missus came on the scene in two thousand and four.

SPEAKER_09 2:06:02

Okay one year before you quit one practice five years after two thousand yeah but no it took him five years to decide he wants something different. Doesn't mean you quit we didn't say that. Oh we're getting there but the missus motivated well then I don't maybe yeah there was some motivation.

SPEAKER_07 2:06:25

Well 2004 is when I got married. So but the practice was uh it was it was sort of getting to me because it it it wasn't uh um the kind of work that I wanted to do. Uh it was getting difficult. Administratively it was g getting difficult. And it was just you no local No just me. Yeah. It was just me running it you know in retrospect I think maybe I should have brought somebody in uh to to assist me. You know how was the money? It was good. Yeah yeah it was good yeah it was uh there there was nothing wrong with the money. Okay. So I mean uh when when I reached the stage when I started looking for something different people thought maybe there's something wrong with me. Yeah. Because I mean it wasn't like it was a it was a lucrative practice. Okay. There's no doubt about that. I mean I was I was I was okay. I was yeah I was fine. It's good that you it's nice of you to say that also because yeah mentality I mean we took our losses yeah we we uh I mean we had to accept our losses with medical aids were not paying and we couldn't recover funds from patients but that wasn't uh it wasn't affecting uh negligible almost yeah it was it wasn't really affecting the the the the the bottom line um so I started exploring and I was thinking hey you know what I'm I actually felt tired of dentistry at that point. Okay you know the the uh I thought it was the the the job itself I thought hey you know what this is this is too much I can't I don't want to do this and uh at one point does it get monotonous uh I think for me at that point it it it it no I I I don't know if it was monotonous. I I wasn't bored of it. Yeah uh I uh I just was getting a bit fed up of the work of the work I think I think I overpressurized myself.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:08:16

You know I think that's what it what it was. I saw there were too many patients that it was a walk-in practice. Uh it it wasn't uh I mean you I had appointments and then patients just pitch up. Okay. And you know we just couldn't turn them away now. They came they traveled for so from so far for treatment so we we put them in other chair and you've been indoctrinated for to have this mindset of no room for error and all those things. Yeah you know you know it was like uh pressure right pressure it was pressure yeah it was it was just pressure I used to work late I mean uh like hours so you end up okay it was town we couldn't really go beyond some but but I mean it was in like in December it's like about six seven o'clock in the evening. Right. You know it uh long hours and long hours yeah and um I said then I then I I said hey you know what at one at one stage I uh I thought hey you know let it why not I try something else you know yeah I saw my my my my wife's uncle was a you know successful uh shoe salesman right I said hey maybe this will be easier you know so I said you would approve that prostor lecturer right yeah I would approve the prostorer so I so I so I I saw so I so I spoke to him I said let's uh let me open up a shop and see what happens. Foot prosthetics here so he said that's right I I you know I I I told you this you know when when I w when I met you two at uh yeah so so I was having so I was still I mean heavy involved in the practice and then in the evening I used to go to his shock and uh I used to have meetings with him and we were planning now you know premises what have you and this and that and set up in stock and uh we did this for like a few like a month or so, you know because we were we actually I I mean I had meeting with a bo uh with body corps of a um uh shopping mall and we're gonna get something going. Um but then one night uh something you know happened that stands out in my head till today. So so like uh so we were we were we were going through the the the the the the the the process now the logistics you know how we're gonna and I said okay okay fine you're showing me things then he then then he he said he told me I want to show you something so I said okay and uh there was a news there was stock of uh certain shoe that came that came in you know so he opened the box and he took out the shoe to the ladies' shoe mostly ladies' shoes and he took the the tip of the shoe and he made it touch the heel and I I won't forget you know with a cigarette hanging in the corner of his mouth he said check your lani you know and then I looked at that shoe and in that moment I realized I don't give a damn about shoes. Oh that was impressive he had that passion in his eyes you know yeah yeah wow you know he was he was completely taken aback by that what that shoe could do. Amazed yeah and I had zero amazement uh for for that shoe and and then uh then I went home and I told my wife hey you know what uh let's shelve the side I I I I I cancelled an appointment to for the lease and everything. You know you were upset. Yeah yeah I said, you know, which is this is this hold on. I'm not gonna do this. Um then I thought, okay, Ryan, let me okay, the story gets more interesting now. So so so by the way, uh uh uh if I can uh give you uh more information, uh the the Mrs. is a cardiac technologist. Okay. Who was working at uh Albert Lutulli at the time. Uh so so I mean you know, she she would be in the cardiology department and her main field was uh when they were stinting patients. How did you guys meet? Uh we can call it arranged. It was uh family member said I went over, met her, yeah, and uh took it from there. I met her in so I met her in uh in in the in I think it was March of 2004, by December we were married. Okay. You know, we we clicked. Um So in 2006, uh I thought but and I was still suffering this I mean in in in this busy practice where my family members thought I was crazy. I wanted to let it go. I really wanted to let it go. Exactly. I wanted to move away from it, even though I I was I was busy and I was uh I was doing well financially. Um But uh my mind wanted something else. So I said, okay, you know, maybe maybe I need to uh uh we'll leave Durban. Maybe I need to try something somewhere maybe maybe we you know go to a small town or something, you know. Then I did a bit of homework and spoke to some people, and there's a the town in Pumalanga uh called uh Petrativ. Small town. Uh I went and had a look at it, and you know, there was hardly any dentists. I think there were one or two there. I said, hey, let me try this out. This is this is very bizarre now. This is bizarre.

SPEAKER_09 2:14:06

This this was now this was uh Because Petrativ is also on the border, by the way.

SPEAKER_07 2:14:10

This is uh looks like he was trying to escape. Let's carry on, carry on. No, no, this this was uh this was this was bizarre, but it was uh uh There's some method here. Yeah, there's some method here. So I said, okay, fine. You know what? Let me try this out. You know, and uh so I I uh made some inquiries and uh there was an optometrist who had some space. Uh and I asked him for for for you know if I could uh join him, and he was happy to. So I uh set up a practice there and I put a locum in my practice in town. In Durban, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:14:49

In Durban. So Who did you take? So you took the wife? No. Actually, I was just going to test it out. Oh shh. So so because now she had a full-time uh job. Yeah. Uh in Durban to Peter Teefs about like four hours. I think it was about four hours. Yeah. We had to go through Melmott and uh it it was a quite a bit of a drive. But uh it was one of the best things that happened to me because uh you know it was like a like a win on a bit of a holiday. So so I set up the practice there from scratch. Uh it was slow, but I never made a loss, never made anything to shout about. I just made in the first month I made my expenses. You know, it was like, hey, I made it. You know, it was like it was it was great. Second month maybe I made a bit more, but I was I was I was actually relaxing in in that town. And my wife would come, uh she used to take leave then. So so you know, every like uh oh, I used to go down every, you know, maybe uh uh two weeks or so. I'll I'll go for the weekend, come back on a Monday. Uh so and then then um after about and the town practice was just running without me.

SPEAKER_09 2:16:10

So that was self-sustainable then with the yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:16:13

Yeah, it was running well without me. Actually I was uh it was it was not bad. You know, it uh so so I mean uh I had to go and collect the cash every every two weeks and uh just check on the you know, I uh uh well I kept my kept tabs of the accounts and what have you. And I used to see a few patients. I used to go and see a few patients. So if I drove down on a Friday, Saturday, I would see all you know, patients that wanted to see me there and what have you. And then uh then I reached uh then I reached a point uh after about uh maybe five months where I felt, hey, you know what, look, small this was a nice holiday. This was a great holiday, but uh small town is not for me. Right. Uh and it's never gonna be for me. And uh I don't think I ever want to to leave Durban again. You know, I was really missing Durban. Yeah. You know. Uh so I contacted uh uh Mulness at the time they cooked me. I said, you know what, if I well what do I do? Because uh I mean I uh uh this equipment is like six months old. They said, no, okay, they'll take it back at a reduced price. You know? So I said, okay, fine. Take it. Um and uh and and and I closed it up. But before I did that, something uh something else happened. Um I was uh I I remember being at some resort uh uh uh in that area, I can't remember the name of it now, uh uh with my wife uh well one evening. And uh I got a phone call from a friend of mine who was uh at a uh at a practice in Durban on the bluff at the Medicros. And uh she told me, look, she's selling a practice. Do I know anybody who would be interested in you know, and this is the amount that uh she wants. So I said, Yeah, yeah, I know somebody. And uh uh and so I phoned I phoned that person. Um and then he he uh he told me no uh because he was also in his own practice and he was unhappy in that practice. So uh so he came to mind. Um then he said, no, no, no, he's not going there. He doesn't, he's not interested in going going to the bluff. Then later on that evening I thought, hey, why don't I take it? Yeah, I mean it was like a it was just like uh something that popped into my mind. So um I found her back and uh then I asked her for more details on, you know, uh the earnings and what have you. Uh and you know, with the with the with the Medicros, it was like the administration was taken care of, and you know, all that seemed like appealing to me.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:19:12

Uh at that uh at that point. Um and uh so I I uh I decided I'll take it. So I had a meeting with the guys, but you see, you know, in order to now be accepted there, you had to um uh you had to meet with the associates and they had to approve of you coming in. Uh so I so I I went down to Durban set up a meeting. Uh and uh there were uh there were three guys uh there. Uh one of them uh I took to uh instantly. Uh I can mention his name uh because he he he plays a big role in in the uh in stories to come. So his name is Dr. Jaime Her. Um elderly now, he's in his 90s. Um he uh they were happy to have me in the practice. We had a meeting and you know everything went well, said fine. Uh but they told me I can't keep the the town practice, which was happily running without me, you know, at that point in time. So I said if I join here, I can't keep that. Why though? Uh be restraint of no no, there wasn't a restraint of trade. Uh it was just a decision that they made.

SPEAKER_08 2:20:45

Yeah, they they Or like cross-referring patients or something like that.

SPEAKER_09 2:20:49

There was to dedicate your time.

SPEAKER_07 2:20:50

But yeah, but that was the reason and then you know I I tried, I actually tried uh motivating to keep it because uh at that stage, now this is this is 2006 that we're talking about. So at that stage, my brother was doing dentistry. So I thought, you know what, uh let me give it to my brother. You know, he's uh it won't be long before he he he he qualifies. Yes. Let him take that and uh I'll carry on. Yes, so I want to keep it going for a while. Um but uh but they were not open to it. So I said, okay, fine. And I I sold it and I bought into that practice.

SPEAKER_09 2:21:35

You sold to the locum network.

SPEAKER_07 2:21:36

Yeah, yeah. Who's there up till today and he's happy there? Wow, wow. Okay. Shh shh. He's uh he he's he's very actually very happy. The last time I spoke to him, which was recently. So uh so so so then then becomes it then starts my journey. So it's so so I I joined in December 2006 was my first month now there at the Bluff Mary Cross. Uh and you know uh at that point in time, uh it felt uh it was quite different. I mean, it were the appointments were very structured, um administration was completely taken care of. Uh you know, I if if there was there there was a uh uh it suited me fine to have a barrier between me and the money. Right. Um uh one less thing to worry about. You know? I actually felt like it freed up a lot of uh space in my head. Yeah. You know, I I mean I I I enjoyed uh going home not having to worry about any admin. Because even though I wasn't in the town practice, I was still administrating from a distance. You know, and um so see here I was like just focused completely on my work. And that that and that was amazing. And at the same time, uh I uh uh I grew very close uh to uh uh uh Dr. Hur, who is much senior to me. I mean he's like 40 years uh ahead of me, you know. Uh so he was he he sort of then became a uh call him a mentor uh to me. Um and and and uh I think uh so so here here begins my endo journey. Uh uh it was a that that uh he uh you know w he sort of recognized uh uh something in my work and he started uh well it started with one patient where a truth wasn't settling. And uh he said, you know what, I'm I'm I'm trying this endo and it's not working. Uh you wanna just uh take over and see if maybe you can get this patient to settle. And it was an upper molar. Uh and uh so I looked at uh so so so so so after I worked on the tooth, I found a fourth canal. So I found the MB2 in that in that tooth. And uh it was actually the first MB2 I ever found, to be honest with you. You know? And then I said, hey, you know what, what have I been missing all these years? And then I started researching this, you know, I started reading. Right um and and and I said, hey, you know what, I mean, the incidence of this is it's there, and yeah, I I've been uh okay, firstly, uh either I missed all those lectures at university. Or you missed the MBT. Nobody ever mentioned it. Even the the the sada the lectures that we were getting monthly, and that was great. You know, I mean it was nice to get together.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:24:58

I mean, it wasn't something that was focused on. Uh so you know, it sparked my interest. And then he uh started just referring more and more uh cases to me, more and more endos to me. And uh, you know, I learned a lot from him, you know. I mean, uh apart from uh uh also in with patient interactions too. Uh you know, I remember I remember an an incident because you know sometimes you can you get patients that can be uh uh uh uh uh maybe a little bit uh aggressive or abusive, you know, and it can so one day uh and and this is of uh this is off the topic of endo or anything like that. You know, it's so so one one day uh early uh when I joined there, I think it must have been about two months or so after I joined, uh there was a patient that I uh that I had given a block to. And uh after I gave him the block, he uh he got very aggressive. Yeah. So he pointed at me and he and he swore and he told me that that was F and soar. And you know, it like in a threatening way. So I was sort of, you know, it uh affected by it. You know, I got uh I got taken aback. Yeah. So I I was like uh I I left the room. I mean, here's this uh scary-looking fellow who uh just swore saw me after I gave him a block. And uh I went to the uh the the the the the staff room where Dr. Hur was always reading the Mercury thing. So I went and I sat down, I told him, you know, Dr. Hur, you know what, uh this is what happened. He said, Come sit down, yeah, my boy. You know it. So this was the wise old man. I mean he said, I'm gonna tell you a story today. He said, okay. He said, you see, picture this. New York City. Now I don't know what this is. I got a piece of getting numbed there. I'm intrigued now. Yeah, I got a piece of getting numbed there. You already swore me.

SPEAKER_08 2:27:08

The big apple.

SPEAKER_07 2:27:09

Yeah, I need to get back there, you know what I mean? Uh, because before I get before I get more, something you know, it's so I said, okay, yeah, but I'm I I I'm I'm respecting my uh Yeah, you gotta listen. Sit and listen. I I I have I have I'm respecting the moment. Yeah. So now he goes, New York City. It's two psychiatrists. They practice in the same building. One is on the ninety-ninth floor, and I don't know why it will. See, one is on uh on the ninety-ninth floor, and the other is on the hundredth floor. And every day the two psychiatrists got into the lift at the same time. And there was a lift boy or bell boy, I don't know what they used to call that. And the the the psychiatrist who got off on the ninety-ninth floor, every day before he got off, he spat on the face of the other psychiatrist and he got out. So and this happened every day. So one day the this lift boy or bell boy uh tells asked the guy, you know what, every day this guy is putting on your face, why don't you do something? You know, say do something to him or say something to him. And he said, Look, I don't need to because the problem is with him, not with me. And that was the story. Oh, that that that was the story. So so so now uh uh I said, okay, all right, thanks, uh Doctor. You won't be some time for the block to to set in. Then I went back and I thought about it, you know. I mean, okay, I accepted it at that point. I never forgot the story because I listened very attentively. But you know, uh, yak, when I encountered uh scenarios thereafter of people being abusive to me, that story helped me so much in the years to come. You won't believe it. Whether it was a patient uh or or anybody. Uh up up until today, you know, if somebody is abusive to me or is there's a reason for why they are being that way, isn't it?

SPEAKER_08 2:29:36

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_07 2:29:36

There's a reason. So it's so so so.

SPEAKER_08 2:29:39

You don't have to do anything about it.

SPEAKER_07 2:29:40

I don't have to do any I'm not I'm I'm I mean I'm I'm not the type of person to react. So that's in my favor. So I I I I use that to take a step back and just do an analysis. You know, is there something that I can uh do to correct the situation from my side? Uh or is the problem lying there? If if after my analysis I feel that the problem lies there, then I just walk away from the situation, not feeling injured or hurt. Or I remove that feeling just goes away. Yeah. It's amazing. New York. I don't know where that's a lovely story. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but but look, I can promise you, it helped me so many times in my life. Uh even in scenarios where, like, you know, even if we family members, everyday life, right? Everyday life. Yeah. You know, if there's something that you feel somebody is doing to deliberately injure you, you can apply that.

SPEAKER_09 2:30:44

I'm gonna do that with yak. I mean, whenever he doesn't respond to my messages.

SPEAKER_07 2:30:48

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:30:48

You know, it's hard to get hold of. I'm gonna think of New York City.

SPEAKER_07 2:30:53

Well, you think that the problem lies with the big apple. Exactly.

SPEAKER_09 2:30:57

Exactly. And he can't do nothing about it.

SPEAKER_07 2:30:59

He can't accept it.

SPEAKER_09 2:31:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 2:31:02

I love the story. It's a great story. So anyway, you know, here's here's a uh uh uh so so I'm gonna bring also somebody else into the picture now, who was there all along, but we never spoke about him. Right? Uh that's a close friend of mine uh who uh by uh by the name of uh Dr. Imran Kasim. I'm not sure if you heard of uh came across him, no. So so Imran, uh he was known as uh to our to us uh close friends as Pochi. Uh he was with us at university and we qualified together. Absolutely brilliant, brilliant guy. You know, uh he was he he was the kind of uh guy in in class who was uh challenging the lecturer and you know he he knew his stuff. Not just challenging, he knew his stuff. Yeah. If he read it once, he knows it. You know, it's uh as simple as that. And so um He's not an PE by any chance. No, he emigrated. Okay. Uh he's in New Zealand. So he was a close friend of mine at university because uh when I uh you know we we we fought yeah from fourth year, fifth year, sixth year we were we were together. Actually, uh from the third year, my my repeat third sixth year. So uh so so and he was practicing uh from the time we qualified, he was at a Medicross in Pinetown.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:32:35

Uh so we kept in touch. You know, if I uh we needed to know something, I should pick up the phone, Pochi, this is the story, you know, and then he had an answer for the he had a solution to the problem always. You know, he was the go-to guy. Uh and we maintain a good friendship going out here and so so so so here's a scenario 2007, 2008, uh we we we we uh we're at the Merry Cross Bluff, I've got Dr. Hur with me and some other practitioners, two other practitioners, and uh he's just referring more and more endos to me, you know. Uh and I'm not realizing what's happening. I'm thinking, you know what, he just doesn't want to do these cases anymore. You know, that's what I what I was thinking. Uh at the same time, I had a also something that I you know, I I had a fascination with religion. Okay. Uh and I used to research religion a lot. So my own and other religions. Uh and Dr. Hurt, who being being uh Jewish, you know, we got on so well. I used to I used to read up on uh on the on Judaism, uh Hinduism, Christianity, you know, we see and and there was uh there's a doctor who's no longer at the practice. He's still a friend of mine. I treat his family. Dr. Johann Wessels, very very uh staunch Christian, uh very good person. He used to do uh general anesthetic there at be had a theater there at the at the practice. So uh every time I had a GA, uh we used to get together and then we used while I'm working, we used to chat. So I used to chat with him about what I researched, and he used to give me his stories, and you know, we see it was just an it and this went on. I mean, through from the time I got there till yeah. And then uh one day uh I I can't remember this the the story that happened. I remember New York City, but I what happened in theater, I can't remember what you were talking about. You know, it was something to do with the Bible and the Quran, you know, as you got into some deep discussion. And uh after I finished the case, I went back uh to to the practice, which was in just in the next passage, and uh my man Dr. Hur was sitting there with his mercury and his tea, you know, and I said, Hey Dr. Hur. You know, I heard the most amazing story today. And uh I started telling him the story, and he listened to the whole story. And then he said, Look, my boy, you see all this energy that you're putting into this research of these religions it's gonna get you nowhere in life.

SPEAKER_08 2:35:29

Sounds like a sound good.

SPEAKER_07 2:35:34

He said, This is gonna get you nowhere. So uh I said, okay. He said, I want you to take all this energy and put it into endo. Wow. Okay, he this is what he told me. Specifically endo. He said, Yeah, he said, put it into endo. So I said, All right, uh then I thought about what he what he said. I said, okay, you know what? I see these guys are doing the endodontic diploma at uh Pretoria, you know? So I spoke to my friend uh Imran and I said, you know what, what do you think? You think we should uh yeah, Imran, cassim. Uh so he said, Yeah, you know what, this is a great idea. He spoke to a few people, he said, let's do it. So we applied in 2008 and we got in in 2009. So it uh and it's run uh by prof uh van der Pfeiffer. Piet Piet Piet Piet van der Pfeiffer. And Piet Piet, I mean, and and in that time he was you know even now too, I mean, but he was doing amazing lectures. Yeah. He was actually uh, you know, uh his lectures were top-notch, huh? Top notch. He he was actually taking endo on the right uh track in this country. He was bring he was bl he was uplifting endo.

SPEAKER_08 2:36:52

Yeah, that's true. I mean, even now with his private lectures, he's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_07 2:36:57

He was really bringing endo up in this country. So we we we got into the diploma and uh we we're doing well in it. And and the good thing is that I was doing this with uh with Imran. Because you see, I mean, like, you know, if I if I if I had another friend that was doing it with me, uh it's okay, we would have we would have learned. But when you learn something with Imran, the learning becomes he's gifted, he's exponential. He just goes to another level to the point where uh you know it's uh it's it's something that that that that van de Feffer uh uh recognized as well in him. And and uh uh uh I mean Prof. Because and Ibran uh you know at that point now he got so engrossed in Endo uh he became known not just here in South Africa but all over because even though uh the the the the the the social media was in its fledgling stage, uh you know there was still uh there was contact. Right. There was contact around the world with the endo artists. Uh and he and his work and he used to post his cases and he he was he became known. Uh and he used to, you know, uh uh uh you know argue or you know, it was always a debate uh w with somebody uh uh overseas or even here. So so we did the diploma that yeah, and you know, I mean I thought I was doing decent work until I did the diploma. And it was a real eye-opener. It was uh it it was amazing. We we uh uh we both came out with distinctions in it. Okay. You know. Uh a little bit difficult at home because I mean here in 2009 I had a two-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 2:38:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:38:46

Uh and uh so so studying and also I mean busy practice during the day. Studying was not easy at the night, you know. So so uh so I I had to so basically I developed a routine where I would sleep and I would wake up back about around about maybe like two, three in the morning. Yeah. And uh dedicate a few hours there and you know, then go to work. Um but you know, to to give you an example, like in the diploma, I remember uh after we after we finished our final exam, we had an oral exam. So uh at that time it was uh Dr. Andre Ace uh who was uh running the diploma with uh Prof. And uh so Andre uh he called me uh so uh uh I can't remember the name of the building now. You would know these buildings better. Sneyman, not Sneyman, RVS Neyman or BMW, one of the uh maybe Sneyman sounds familiar. But we had our oral exam in there. Uh it was the same same one where where the lecturers are for the the the uh the odontology department, the prosthetics, the head of departments are in the building.

SPEAKER_09 2:39:59

Yeah, so it's probably the Tantan Mont hospital. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oral hospital.

SPEAKER_07 2:40:04

Maybe, yeah, yeah. So anyway, uh we we uh we we it's time for the oral exam. And uh Andre uh uh this we just finished write the written and we walk across and we all the whole group is there. So he called me. Uh no, he called uh Imran. They were going in alphabetical order. You know, says right Imran Ka Imran Kasim. Then I stopped Andre. I told Andre, look, you know what uh if you take him first, I'm gonna look bad. He said, let me go first. And uh Okay, good move. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I told I was I told him straight. Because I mean everybody knew Imran. Yeah. They knew what I was saying. So so Andre said, okay, no problem, you go. He was very open and I I have very good memories of him. He's a really, really nice guy. Uh so I went in uh just like this. At a table, I got uh uh Prof. sitting across me, he got a laptop there. And uh he said and he asked me a question, he said, no, look, uh okay, so I want you to tell me the embryology of the mandible. And uh so I told him uh sorry, profit he said, no, I'm just joking. He said, I'm just joking, man. He started answering that was how he broke the ice in the viver. Nice one. Yeah, you know, and then and then he's then he started asking me endo questions, and uh and I just answered, answered, answered. He turned his laptop, what's this? Where's the what would you do here? What would you do here? He was I was in and out in ten minutes. He said, Okay, fine, that's great. And then I got up to leave. And then as I was leaving, I told him, but uh, you know what, prof, if you want to know the embryology of the mandible, I thought ask him back. Wow. And uh, you know, it's so Imran went in after that. He came out forty-five minutes later. Wow. Because he asked it to him and he gave it. He gave I mean something that we learned in in second year was still in his name. Yeah, yeah. And then uh this thing, yeah, and and it was no joke. I mean, he just gave him the whole thing. Wow, you know, and now he's in New Zealand. Yeah, now he's in New Zealand.

SPEAKER_09 2:42:28

He's still practicing the what is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:42:30

Yeah, he's practicing. He does uh a lot of general dentistry also endo. So then uh we had it. We uh after 2009, we finished the diploma, and uh we uh have a we we both decide that we wanted to take it further and we want to do a master's degree. So we had a meeting with uh uh Prof. Um and uh he said uh okay, no problem. And uh we we we thought of topics because we had to now uh come up with topics uh to present uh to the research committee and what have you. In Pretoria. In Pretoria, yeah. Yeah. He said, no, he's happy uh to to take us one. And uh that's the that's when the uh the different journey started. I mean that the j so now all this while being practiced, but now we're studying further. So the the the master's degree took a took a while, and that was that was uh another eye-opener. You know, um my topic was uh uh on on MTA, because I mean at that stage MTA was like about 10 years old only. You know, it uh amazing product. She changed endodontics dramatically. Uh I mean that's how we got our bioseramic sealers now. I mean, the parent uh the parent compound was MTA. And the MTA itself was developed by an Iranian uh in the 90s. So we said, you know what, this is a hot topic. Let's uh let's research it. And we broke it apart. We took it down to the I mean, we we we uh we we did a deep, deep, deep study on it.

SPEAKER_08 2:44:13

Um there was a two-year program.

SPEAKER_07 2:44:16

Well, uh it kind of got extended on my side uh because uh I I I couldn't get it done on time. It was a little bit difficult uh because there now I had a uh second child. Yeah. You know, and uh so i it things got a little bit delayed. Um and I ended up finishing that in uh 2014.

SPEAKER_01 2:44:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:44:37

So so at this point in time, I'm still at the bluff uh Mery Cross. However, uh the the the the there was a Mary Cross that had opened in Umchlanga. And because my practice started going in the endodontic direction, uh I uh started spending time at that Mericros as as well. So I was like part uh you know few a few days in uh at the bluff, a few days in the at the Umschlanga practice. Uh and uh then uh I really started enjoying the endoreferral practice, you know. And in 2010, uh Imran and I decided that we want to revive the Endodontic society in Durban. And and and it had become defunct uh for for a number of years. Uh and we uh initially we approached uh Sada. We had a meeting with them, we said, hey, this is what we want to do. I don't think they took us too seriously, you know. I mean, we just seemed like two, maybe two eager lighties that you know just uh came out of the diploma and we were a bit hyped up. Right. Uh so you know they we weren't getting anything formal from them, so we decided let's do it on our own. So there there's uh Imran, and but we needed a database, we needed a contact dentist. So there was another friend of mine uh who's now in the Cayman Islands, uh Dr. Pratish Manesa. Uh he uh and who's a close friend of mine up till today, one of my closest friends. I mean, we keep in touch now weekly. We mean, you know, we int uh and uh he he phones me at like up at about five o'clock in the morning and we have a chat. You know, because I think it's like a seven-hour difference. So so in any case, uh he had just joined the bluff at that time. So his practice was a bit slow, it was still picking up, so he had time. So in those days, though, I mean the dentist was still in the telephone directory.

SPEAKER_01 2:46:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:46:44

You know, the directory with all our so he's he phoned each dentist, and you know, he got uh email addresses and what have you, and uh contact details, and we formulated our own database. And then we decided we were going to start lecturing. This is a while ago. Well there were a few reasons. Uh the main reason uh we felt we wanted to improve the standard of endo, basically.

SPEAKER_08 2:47:15

You think at this stage now you you started becoming passionate about one aspect of the institute, which was endo.

SPEAKER_07 2:47:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were passionate about it and we we so we we we wanted to create this platform of learning. And you were only doing endo now at this time. Well, no, no. Uh well uh uh a lot of endo. A lot I I started getting a lot of referrals. Uh but especially after uh we we started our lecturing. Okay. You know, that sort of boosted our endo uh referral practices. Uh so wh what we did was we we we formulated lectures. And I mean at this stage now I was finding MB2s like crazy. And you know, it was uh I I wasn't even using a microscope. I only started using a microscope in 2011. So a year later. So so so I formulated a lecture which I use up up until today, you know, on specifically, you know, I mean on the MB2. Okay. You know, the incidents, how to locate it, how to negotiate it, what my technique is. Um and uh we we got because we were with Medicross and and Medicross is owned by Netcare, uh, we asked them if we could use uh their hospitals as a venue. Okay. So they gave us St. Augustine's uh Caritas uh uh uh uh the boardroom there to use. And so we used to invite dentists to come in and we used to get good crowds. We used to get like about 60, 80, dentists just coming in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a there was a big appetite for this. Huge appetite uh for for for for an endo uh st uh study group. Well, you we call it a study group, but we we should just host lectures. Yeah. You know? Yeah uh I remember the first one that I did in 2010. I mean, it was uh nerve-wracking. Yeah. You know, to Because you hadn't you didn't really lecture. No, no, I did. Before, I mean No, before half that's the first time you're lecturing. First time, you know, you get on your heart's just opening in, you know, it's like uh it it it it it wasn't it wasn't easy. Yeah. Uh but it it got better. It got better. And then we used to invite other speakers to come on. Okay. You know, and we used to do this at no at no cost uh to the dentist. Initially we weren't providing meals, then with the then dental companies were sponsoring meals and we managed to get so this and eventually they we had sponsors that would uh like uh Adcock Ingram sponsored coastlands for us. Okay, sure. You know, so you know we we started getting that's good. And and this this this continued uh then in uh 2016, uh uh two things happened. One uh was uh I decided because endo is hard work. I mean, you know, you look Endo is Endo, yeah. Yeah, Endo, I mean you you must be You know, he's being exactly watches the show. Oh you know, it it I enjoyed it. I enjoy it, but I mean it is really hard work. So I thought, hey, you know what? Maybe there's an easier way out. So I applied for the aesthetics diploma and I at Pretoria and I did the aesthetics diploma. Unfortunately, Imran uh couldn't join me because at that year he decided to emigrate and he and he uh uh he left the country. So I did the aesthetics diploma and after he uh after he emigrated, uh the the endo study group sort of just f fizzled away and I uh you know because we used to have lecture, we used to have meetings at least three or four times a year. Okay maybe I should just take a break. Because I mean, you know, preparation for lectures it takes time. It's a it's a it it can it's a time concern. You see, it's all it's all Cassim's fault. Yeah. Well, I mean Come back, Dr. Kassim. That feels great. No, he told me he wants to at some point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um then then I stopped. I just like went out of the lecturing scene for a while. You know, I just focused on the practice and the family, and you know, I s it was And a dentist just sending you endo, left, right, and center.

SPEAKER_09 2:51:29

Yeah, yeah. I was gonna do it.

SPEAKER_07 2:51:30

You're the go-to guy, right? In Durban, I think. I get I got a lot of referrals. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of referrals. Do you only do endo?

SPEAKER_08 2:51:37

And what do you enjoy about it? Sorry. What what's fascinating about endo?

SPEAKER_07 2:51:42

So endo, uh, you know, if I if I had to uh look, I uh I think maybe it's the challenge. Uh it's it's it's solving that problem. You know, the the the challenge that I had with that Matt's problem back in. I I think maybe I relate to that and I and I don't want to give up until that problem is solved. You know? That's one. Uh two, um it's the procedure which I feel most at peace with. You know, it's like uh if I had to describe it, uh it's like uh I'm almost I'm almost in a low state. Yeah. You know, uh so so that that's how I feel when I'm doing an endo. EB said the same thing. Uh I I don't I don't I don't feel uh uh any stress or or pressure or at least it's um I mean c locating, negoti negotiating those canals, performing that procedure.

SPEAKER_09 2:52:39

So when you're doing an when you're doing an indoor, then you're in you you're in your zone. I'm in my zone. Nothing can distract you.

SPEAKER_07 2:52:45

No, no. That's cool.

SPEAKER_08 2:52:47

And there's n there's nothing else you've experienced that you've had that same feeling with.

SPEAKER_07 2:52:53

As far as uh as far as dentistry is concerned, no. Cool, huh? No. Apart from uh uh apart from prayer, no. Well, that's cool. Uh the so I mean I I I don't feel uh I I I look uh at the end of the day I feel the mental exhaustion. That's for sure. But it that's at the end of the day. It's not not not while the train is moving. Um but there's no procedure that I would I I mean I wouldn't replace if I feel if I f if I have to do a day of just uh maybe some crowns and uh and and restorative work, uh I go home feeling differently. I feel like I didn't really I mean i i i don't feel the mental exhaustion. Uh but a good exhaustion.

SPEAKER_06 2:53:39

Yeah. But a good exhaustion.

SPEAKER_09 2:53:42

It's like after you go for a run, right? It's it's it's anguish during the exercise, but afterwards you've got the golf and high, you know?

SPEAKER_08 2:53:48

Yeah. Well, I I don't know. I wouldn't call it anguish. Uh I you you're not undergoing anguish. No, no, no, there's no anguish. But it's like it's a full state. No, it's it's it's a mental fatigue that you don't realize that that's but I get exactly what you're saying, because like on a day that I'm doing implants, I feel very differently to a day that I'm doing anything else. In fact, I'm trying not to even have those days anymore. But it's it's that that flow state that you you're talking about. And I listen to that.

SPEAKER_07 2:54:16

No, nothing. I and uh uh I'm in the zone and I want to solve that problem. You know? Of course, I mean uh not all endocrums can be solved. But uh, you know, that's a discussion that you have to have with with with with patients. But uh unfortunately now with CBCT and what have you, you know, we we can we can assess and we can uh have that discussion early. You know, we're not going in blind. You know? Um But look, it's uh it it would be nice to get uh easy referrals, uh but uh it's uh unfortunately it's just the nature of referrals is the difficulty. No, no, it's yeah, it's the difficulty of you. You have to accept it. That's the point, right?

SPEAKER_09 2:54:59

Because it's difficult.

SPEAKER_07 2:55:00

You know, and I I I I allocate uh time in my day for it. So uh you know, if um uh fortunately I have another practitioner with me to take on other procedures. And I mean uh now after all all this while I become I mean we I I used to do so many extractions in town, I can't even do a single one. I've become rusty at doing an extraction. So if something is it needs to be extracted, I just move the patient to the next room. I can't I d I don't I don't want to do it. Yeah. I don't feel I lost the confidence. Yeah. Actually I lost the confidence because I haven't been doing it for so long. You know?

SPEAKER_08 2:55:37

And uh you when Yak asked you the question about being in the zone, and you said you mean you said to him with regard to dentistry, right? Where are you in the zone outside of dentists?

SPEAKER_07 2:55:51

What do you do? That's a good question. For fun, yeah. I knew that question was gonna come. But uh I mean uh look uh You avoid emigrating? Because the wife is still on that. No, no, no. That ship has sailed. That ship has sailed. Oh, it won't sail. No, we are not sailing anyway. You still swim in the ocean, eh? I still swim. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I still swim. Be careful. Ecoalize. Not as much now. Yeah. But I brave it now and again. Try not to put my head in the water so much. Try to stay above this. But yeah, I know swimming, yeah, definitely. I'd say, you know, my my um the the the time of the day for me where I I mean that most peaceful state is is the morning. Okay. So if I'm y you know, uh in the in the in the morning, early morning, uh look, I'm up at four every day. Okay.

SPEAKER_09 2:56:54

I thought so. Yeah. I had a feeling.

SPEAKER_07 2:56:56

And uh this morning I'm uh up at three watching the tennis I'm watching tennis at the US. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was there was a good match on there, you know. So um yeah, I'll I enjoy that that morning, just doing some exercise in the early mornings. Oh, you do you what do you do? Uh just nothing uh strenuous, just a little bit of jogging, a bit of weights, you know, walking my dog. And you go to bed early? Uh relatively, I would say. Uh my cutoff is around about 10 o'clock. Yeah, that's early. Yeah. For me. No, no, no. My night person. No, no, after that, yeah, uh it's not. In fact, after work, I mean I don't really for I I just want to get home, spend that time with the family. Yeah. That's the uh for me, that's that's what it's and how old are the kids now? So I have three kids. Uh my youngest is uh my daughter is your daughter's age. Okay. Uh then I've got a 15-year-old girl and uh 18-year-old boy. Right, so big span. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:57:56

And are they going into dentistry, the 18-year-olds?

SPEAKER_07 2:57:59

No, no, no. Uh the the uh unfortunately he didn't want to do dentistry. Why unfortunately? Well, I would have liked it. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would have liked it. That's cool to hear. Yeah. No, really. I I would have. Yeah. He's got other uh ambitions and aspirations, so uh he's he's following that. Don't tell me law. No, not law. He's uh he was we'll let's call it a gap year this year. Okay. But uh he he he wants to be a pilot, so uh put him in an aviation school. Oh, that's so cool. Giving him a chance uh at it this year. And he's enjoying it.

SPEAKER_09 2:58:31

So uh you've already answered the question that we usually ask about um you know whether we'd like But I can ask why. Why? Do you know the question is? The question we ask usually is, you know, if somebody comes to you and says, I'm I'm thinking of doing dentistry like a youngster, what would you say to them and what advice would you give them? So I think you'd say yes.

SPEAKER_07 2:58:51

No, well, I I I understand that it's not for everybody. You know, it's uh you've gotta you've gotta uh like what you're doing, but at the same time, uh I think uh you have to give it a fair chance, too. You know, I mean, it took me a long time to find my passion or like like what you described it. You know, I I I thanked you one day for introducing me to the concept of ikigai. So, I mean, the the the that that is such a fantastic concept. I bought the book as well. You know, it's uh Well, you're uh you know you're right now my favorite uh uh podcast listener.

SPEAKER_05 2:59:28

No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 2:59:29

No one's ever mentioned that. No, I appreciate it because okay, I I I know the summary of the book because I mean the the the key to to to to a to a happy life or to a uh uh they call it a long life, a happy and long life. Fulfilled is a fulfilled life is to find something that you really enjoy doing. Uh and then become proficient in it.

SPEAKER_03 2:59:54

So you you you master that and if you if you could live forever, would you? No. I wouldn't. Why not?

SPEAKER_07 3:00:10

No, I I I mean I I I I I think there's a better place uh beyond. Yeah. I think there's a better place beyond. Fascinating. So what would you tell this this the person that comes to? There's a lot of challenges. Uh it's it's definitely uh not um i it's it's not all rosy. It's difficult to build a practice. Uh it's in the it's an expensive game. Um you may not get your returns immediately. I mean I don't know how yeah okay, so to to g to put you in uh in the in in perspective of my current situation, uh a few years ago I decided to leave the Medicross and uh go back on my own. Uh and and I set up the practice and fortunately I hit the ground running and everything was fine. But now I I also I also wonder, you know, well what if I I I had done it and I was waiting for patients to come in. How does that practitioner survive? Yeah. You know? So nobody talks about those kind of things. Yeah, the variables. The v it's it's not easy. Yeah. I mean, you're sitting in a practice and seeing one patient a day or maybe zero, uh it's not sustainable. See, so it's not an easy game to get out. You know, as far as uh financially, you're not gonna just take off uh And from the outside in it looks easy and looks like wow. It looks yeah, it it it it looks uh glorious, but but but but it but it isn't. So um it's not gonna be an easy road, definitely. Uh you know, I mean I I I I I I listened to uh the podcast on uh uh the the the dental student. Yeah that's uh okay that was great. But uh I mean he has a good dream and I'm sure it's going to materialize. And hopefully there's nobody there to try and kill that dream. Yes.

SPEAKER_09 3:02:17

And wasn't this week you're s nominated some president or something? Yeah, one of the tuck one of the tux uh trust things.

SPEAKER_07 3:02:22

I can't remember the exact thing. But yeah, but look, go for it if you want to do it. Do you agree with that lecture of yours? That you you weren't supposed to be. Definitely not. Definitely not. I cannot respect what uh she did at that point in time. It's a good lesson. It's a good lesson. Would you have a good get into the so so so Academia? Uh academia Maybe you should. No, I I'd I actually I I I no I'm not I'm not I'm not interested. I'd rather stay in private practice and uh and continue because I mean uh the the uh I mean in 2018 uh I I became a KOL for for right mildness. Okay. So and I'm happy with that. Yeah, that I'm I'm I'm happy uh You're still young though, I'm sorry. I'm happy I'm happy lecturing from time to time. Oops, I've got a little bit of uh little bit of mileage left over. Lots, yeah. Uh but uh you know I I'm happy just lecturing from time to time. I don't want to get into it as such. I do my own research. Look, uh it it it I used to complain a lot. Every time I had to prepare for a lecture or conference or presentation, uh you know, it's it because it takes your time away. It takes your time away from your family, it takes your time away from leisurely things like watching series, or you know, doing you can't do all that. You have to you have to you you have to research and prepare. And then travel and all that stuff. And and travel. So but you know, I realized in the last few years, uh maybe five years, uh, that if if I did a lecture here in Joburg, uh and then the same lecture in Cape Town, every time I prepare for that same even if it's the same thing that I'm doing, uh it changes something uh in my workflow. So something changes in the clinic, you know. I pick up something small that has a huge impact on on the outcome of the procedure. So the learning so my advice to anybody who wants to do dentistry uh is number one, uh be ethical. Right. Uh it's uh it's it it's a good profession. Um advice to anybody coming out of dental school too now is number one, just look after your ethics. Uh don't over-service a patient. Uh don't try and sell the patient things that they don't require. Uh treat what's necessary. I I s I stand by that. Um never stop learning because that's what will improve your your your your your your your clinical abilities. See and never stop teaching maybe also. That's the best way to learn. Because that so that was you just mentioning it now, you're learning so much just from by teaching, right? That's the that's that that has been the best way to learn. And and and you know, it's good for me that I have uh uh a commitment to go and lecture at. Otherwise, I think willingly on my own, I would never sit and let it fade away, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look at it. For the Mulness Congress, I was preparing one week before the presentation when Dr. Reddy took three hours away from my Sunday morning. Yeah, yeah. Right. Uh uh uh and also my the type of presentations that I do uh nowadays are very different to the ones that I started off doing. Because now it's very videographic information. So what I want to do is uh I want to share exactly what I do.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 3:05:54

You know, so I'll video a case, I'll edit, uh add some music to it, and you but I want to take you step step by step uh as to how I perform the procedure. Not just a whole of whole of theoretical jargon uh that's uh may not be of clinical value. So I try I try and keep it very, very videographic nowadays. Cool. Yeah. And and I enjoy that as well. You know, it's uh I get the sense Yak wants to say something.

SPEAKER_01 3:06:21

I don't know.

SPEAKER_08 3:06:21

I just no, I think just maybe in closing, like um yeah, thanks first of all for like joining us and also you know showing us or not showing us, I think reaffirming that it's more about the destination than the journey.

SPEAKER_09 3:06:36

And um yeah, I guess like my I think we do the opposite of immigrating.

SPEAKER_08 3:06:41

I think you're in Durban, and the best the best way to stay grounded there and not and still be part of the profession is to open up a dental school in uh in Durban, or much needed one.

SPEAKER_07 3:06:53

That would that would be well. I think I see that on the cards. But that's what I'm saying. If it happens, you're still young. No, I mean look, we we've had conversations. Uh I've had a conversation with Dr. Ratan about it. The guys in Durban really would like to get it. They need it also. They really would like I mean you've got dental therapy, so so I mean the infrastructure is there. It won't be difficult to do so. I just don't know why. Uh and there's a demand for it, right?

SPEAKER_08 3:07:18

I mean others we're all just going to Witz or U dubs.

SPEAKER_07 3:07:21

Yeah, yeah. So everybody from Durban had to go out to study somewhere else. Yes. So for sure. And it'll be good for us too. Yeah. It'll it'll be good for us uh to to to share knowledge and to learn. How did you feel this this went? This it was amazing. It was exciting. I I I I hope it was. No, I liked it. I mean, uh what a what a whirlwind. Yeah. I mean, what a crazy story. And it all could have ended just there, third year. And and it's not just that. Okay, my clinical work is there, but I'm also involved in research. So now uh I'm uh you know, it's um uh uh you know the the the the trigger to my endodontics uh was uh okay, Dr. Hur and finding that first MB2 in 2007. So in 2018, uh I joined a team of international endodontists who do a worldwide study. So they they selected one person from each country uh to uh r to do a CBCT study on the incidence of the of the MB2. And uh so I gave the data from South Africa. We studied about 250 or 300 CBCTs, and you know, so we we published in the Journal of Endodontics. Uh and not only with that study, it's just continuing. Now we've we've finished about seven uh uh anatomy studies, and now we've started pathology studies as well uh using CBCT. So I keep I try and keep my academia going as well as my clinical work and the teaching and my family. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's a lot to juggle, but it's it's it's it's happening and and uh and I'm enjoying it. Yeah, well.

SPEAKER_09 3:09:08

Thank you so much for your time. I hope you live long and happy with the ikigai principles at your side or wherever they belong. And uh yeah, I think this has been the longest episode we've done so far. Oh, really? We must do part two. Yeah, yeah. It flew. Time flies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:09:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 3:09:25

So thank you so much, Tom.

SPEAKER_07 3:09:26

Thank you, thank you. I really appreciate it. Yeah, safe travels home as well. Thank you. You're gonna visit family now first. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_08 3:09:33

See if we can record it.

SPEAKER_09 3:09:34

Yeah, just ch check your everything is in, right?