SPEAKER_02 0:00

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unknown 0:21

Dr.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Nina Kulu Nsanwisi.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Hi, yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

How's it?

SPEAKER_01 0:25

I'm fine. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Good, good. The doctor who became a lawyer, who I think is now a podcaster, maybe. Who knows? Wow, that sounds like you, but real. But a real doctor. But you're not the first, eh? I don't know if you know, but you're not the first medical doctor that's become a lawyer that's come onto the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

No, I I I wouldn't believe I am.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

No, but I would have thought you are, because I I thought it's like a unique thing, you know? But it feels like every other person's doing their LLB these days. Literally.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Literally. But I mean, how many people actually get admitted?

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Well, are you one of those snobs where you if you look at if you look at the uh lawyers are like that, eh? Oh, they just got an LLB. They're not really a lawyer. Because you can't technically call yourself an attorney until you've been admitted.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Until you've been admitted, right? Gone through the grind.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Yeah, and you've been through the grind. Yeah. I mean, and you know we have something in common. We've we've got a common ex-boss. Yes. Uh great, great boss. Absolutely. No, completely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um before we get into it, I mean we we interviewed the Minister of Health a few episodes ago, right? And I don't know if I was projecting or or what, but I said to him that my perception is that medicine has a bit of a bad p bad PR these days and nobody wants to study it. And he disagreed with me. He said, no, people really want to study medicine.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

I agree. A lot of people still want to study medicine. Um and I think a lot of people are struggling to actually get in.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Um I I don't think there's there's bad PR on the medical family. But I don't think it's a bomb. High. I think the demand is high.

unknown 1:54

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Do you think he said that? I think uh he did say that medicine has dropped off the scarce skills. No, no, he disagreed with me. He said because I told him this thing about it's no longer sexy and people don't want to study it. And he said, no, people want to study it. There people are actually like students are actually battling to get in.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

But what he did concede on was that um people have more choices now.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. It's no longer listen, I think people have realized that it was never sexy.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

You know? Yeah, no. I think medicine had prestige, and I think some of that prestige might be gone. Um, but it was never sexy.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

So why'd you do it? Wait, so can I just ask, what is your guy's definition of sexy?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Bankers. You know, mergers and acquisitions in law, I think, is sexy. Yeah, lawyers.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

I mean I think it's all it's it all depends on whether there's a series that makes it sexy. Like suits, uh scrubs, you know, you there's nothing about dense. For me it was Chicago Hope. Chicago Hope was the medical thing. There was a drama though. There was no comedy involved.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

No, there was no comedy involved.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

No, yeah, no Grey's Anatomy and all that.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Gray's Anatomy came a lot later. I was already in university when Gray's Anatomy came out.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Um that's been going on forever though. McDreamy died this week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Max Steamy. Okay. Yeah. Um so for me it was Chicago Hope. It was a doctor called Kate, and she was a cardiothoracic surgeon. And I just thought, wow.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Really? So that that's it, that's what inspired you to do medicine?

SPEAKER_00 3:22

That's well, I mean, I think it it it it it was a little even before then. I just thought that was cool. That was the cool factor that, you know, uh that I got from TV. But I mean, ever since I was a kid, I was always very curious. My mom um had a bit of a stint as a nurse. So we had all sorts of books at home, you know, medical books, nursing books, etc. So I was always just very curious about it. So I think that's where it started. But I think also, um, I just didn't know what to do. And it was one of the things that was always on my list of, oh, this would be really nice. So I mean, you're 17 and you have to make a decision for the rest of your life. So I applied for everything everywhere, but I knew I wanted to go to UCT. So what's everything down? What's everything? You name it, yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Engineering.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Engineering, law, um, medicine, everything, everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

No dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

No. Why not? I told you I'm scared of dentistry.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Why not? Why didn't you apply for dentistry?

SPEAKER_00 4:17

It's the drill, guys. It's the drill. Like, mmm. Terrifies me. To this day, I'm scared of going to the dentist.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

And now we're recording and reverted. And you're sitting on a Saturday afternoon with two dentists. When did you realize that medicine was not that sexy?

SPEAKER_00 4:34

When I had to wear adult pajamas seven days a week and tackys.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

That's scrubs, right? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Adult pajamas and I like that. I'm gonna use that.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

So that for me was a no. But I always like I had mine like tailored and I would match my socks and I'd match my tackys, and I'd like 24 sets of scrubs. It was it was a whole situation.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

But when so this must have been after qualifying, because scrubs was scrubs a thing when you were head student.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

We got scrubs as a gift and finally. Fine.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Tank. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

And I stuck with tank my entire medical career. Even now. And when when well, up until very recently. And literally when uh Jed, the guy that um owned Tank, he used to have uh his store was out in Orange Grove. Like I like knew Jed from back then, back then before we became um, you know, where he is now. So Tank has stuck me through. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

But there's some really sexy for the actual definition of what sexiness is scrubs out there nowadays. Now it's phenomenal. You're sounding way too excited to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

No, but they really are nice. Like I I I look at them and I'm just like, maybe I would have stuck it around a little longer.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

They actually make you the fit and the cut and everything. They're almost like joggers. Even though the price is elastic, it doesn't, isn't it? But that's why I was asking because like scrubs, it's a relatively newish quantity. Is it is it not? Is aren't scrubs like relatively newish in healthcare?

SPEAKER_00 5:57

They're newish in the sense that everybody now wears them. Yes, but it wasn't like it wasn't ubiquitous with you know medical practice. I think you wore scrubs when you went to theater, you took them off and you wore your proper formal clothes. Whereas now you can go to work and scrubs, work in your scrubs and go home and hopefully leave them at the door. Yes. And then, you know, then carry on.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Yes, so it wasn't always ubiquitous, as you said. And then it started off as adult pajamas as you described them. And then as Yak says, now I don't know, he sounds weird. Now it's like lingerie.

unknown 6:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

This is why you're still practicing that anyway. Um, so because Nina, then you became a lawyer. But but let's let's rewind. Like, where do you come from?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Where do I come from? Um I come from a township in Limpopo outside of Zinin called Ngoango. Um born and bred there. Um I went to school in Zinin and then at a primary school called Unicorn, and then I went to high school at a place up on the mountain in Macwhile Grove. Um Stanford.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Tito is from there, Tito and Boini.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah, yeah. So his house, yeah, the most recent house where he was at, excuse me, that was actually um down the road from where I was at school. He's not actually from there, but his house was there because he's from another village further down the road from my actual hometown. Yeah. So yeah. Um, but yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Um and then yeah, I went off to Cape Town and Well, that's a that that escalated quickly from Limpopo to Zanine area to Cape Town.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

What what were you like as a school kid?

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Um I you know, I I think it's something that I still am. I just enjoy studying.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

You know, I just thoroughly enjoy learning new things. So that for me was always very interesting. I can't spell, could never spell. Um, so Friday spelling tests were always like palpitations and disaster. Um, and I actually don't have a doctor's handwriting, so now it's really awkward when you can't spell.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

And you're legible.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

You know what I mean? It's really awkward.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Um I feel like that's probably why a lot of doctors have bad handwriting, just to cover up the typos.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Yeah, but you see, what happened with me is that I literally, and this was in university, my handwriting was always good, but in university I was like, if I'm going to write nonsense, let me not like make the marker upset by having to try to decipher what's happening. At least I'll be honest, same she tried, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Um so yeah, I've I've always just enjoyed So you're the studio stuff, you weren't like playful and naughty and look, I probably was according to my mother's standards.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah. Um, but in my books, I think I I was How many siblings?

SPEAKER_02 8:33

I know one is a is a lawyer, Chris. Yeah, Fezie.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah. So Fezie, um, my baby sister, she is a lawyer. She's actually doing a PhD now. Um, and then I have we have a middle sister, um, Manelise, and she's a teacher. So there's three of us.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

She have three girls. Yeah. PhD in law. What what's that about? How does that work?

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Um, it's doctorate in philosophy. It's not so it's not LLD, it's uh it's a doctorate in philosophy. So it's the same as you would do a PhD or anything else, it's just that her main focus is in the legal space. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

So another and doc another doctorate in San We see as well.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah, so now we need to differentiate between ND and PhD, you know.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

And and your parents?

SPEAKER_00 9:16

So uh my dad actually studied law, didn't practice. Um got an L L L L B.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

There you go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah. So my dad my dad studied law, um, but my dad's a chief. And then uh my mom, like I said, she did a bit of nursing, and but her passion was always to go into teaching. So then she then went into teaching. So she's a teacher, and but she's they both retired now.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

So daughter of teacher and chief.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

How's that? Is is that cool? Like sorry, chief, chief of?

SPEAKER_00 9:45

He's a traditional chief. Okay. Yeah. Um but I mean he's a lawyer, so you know it's the same thing. So all the kids must have like respected you there.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Well, how do you what was it like growing up as a chief?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

It didn't matter. It's still they don't know. Yeah, they didn't understand. It could have been anything. You know. Um it was a lot of interesting explaining growing up, I guess. Um so You must be tired of it. Like what No, but I mean now people are more knowledgeable about everything.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Okay. You know, so now they're not Yak and I, because Yak is like chief, what? Chief of what?

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Chief of staff.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Yeah, so white school. So you went to a white school in in Limpopo.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

I didn't even know. Yeah, I mean I went to a white school in Limpopo. I didn't know those existed.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Listen, they do here. And for a while, I mean, even since like preschool, um my my parents, my parents, I I I they still do. Um my parents just wanted to make sure that we got the best that they could, you know, afford to us. So I think since about the age of three, um, we were put in, you know, then Model C schools, I suppose you can call them that. Um and yeah, that's that's how that's you know formative years. I guess we were talking kids for a bit.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

And when does the so the medicine thing comes in metric around then, standard nine? The decision to just apply for med other Standard Nine. Just give a shot at everything.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

It was standard nine. You you apply using, what is it now, grade 11?

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yeah. So you apply using those marks, you know, to all the universities. So I applied Standard Nine, um, got a conditional acceptance to UCT. Took it and ran. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Why UCT? Why not UCT? Before you even get there, like I'm sorry, not to belittle your profession, either one of you.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Which one?

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Uh yeah, uh either one of you. But like you mentioned chief now, and I'm super excited about that. Tell us more about what what does that chieftainship mean? What is your dad's responsibility?

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Oh man. Um so I mean it's it's and how did he even get the position? Uh he was born into it.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Okay, so like royalty kind of types.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah, yeah. Um so I mean it's it's yeah, exactly. I mean that pretty much explains the whole situation.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Um But what is his role? What does he have to do?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

So, okay, so say um a lot of it so let me start at the beginning. So as you you get a lot of traditional um communities, like in the country, um everywhere. Um, and some of them have kings and queens. So I'm Zonga and in in our culture, we don't have a king or a queen. There isn't one, you know, su superior family to another family. Um and then so we all have chiefs, but we have different, for lack of a better word, tribes, I guess, within our within the Tonga people. Let me put it that way. And um the the Major community is where my father is chief. It's it's out in Palawara.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Major.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Yeah, yeah. So just outside of Palawara. Um and the the responsibilities are it's it's i it's it's a leadership position, you know what I mean? Um and so it is you are I don't want to use the word in charge, but you you you are sort of like an advisor. Not advisor, but you are put in the position to ensure that the people's best interests are looked after. I think that's the best way to put it. So y the the communities have um say farmlands, for example. You know, all the proceeds from those farms belong to the community, the land belongs to the community. Um, but then the buck has to stop somewhere, you know. So somebody has to be the person that says, okay, we will invest in this particular thing, or you know, we will farm this particular um fruit or crop or whatever, or we'll lease this farm, etc. etc. So things like that. Um, and then also to be there there's a whole other um what's the word? Say it's say for example, like uh a parliament, for example, where there's a traditional house of leaders where you know all the different um traditional leaders will get together and uh discuss the affairs that obviously involve them and their people. Because you can imagine that problems that we have here in Johannesburg are completely different to problems that somebody is gonna have in the middle of Loule Gani. You know. Um ours will be potholes. There's will be somebody coming to stop stiff or something. You you know what I mean? Um, or even you know, stomping the roads to make sure that everything is flat because there's no tar roads. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

So you have to be well behaved.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Oh, all the time I still do.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Yeah, because y I mean there's that responsibility, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:52

I think even even more than just that. It's just the the uh where I come from is it's small. You know, the community is small. Um but to take things even further back, my grandfather, my dad's father, was a chief minister of a homeland. So, you know, there there's always the everybody knew who we were. Everybody knew the family name, everybody knew, you know, this, that, and that thing. And maybe that was another reason why I ran off to KT. UCT, I was about to say it we go. We got it. Yeah. Because no, you know, you you you you you're nobody, you know, so you can be anybody. Yes. When you get to the other side where they speak a completely different language, they're Princess Story.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Yeah. Do you have a title?

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

What would it be? Really? Wow. It's so cool. You need to update your LinkedIn. Yeah. Seriously. I feel like we've had a bar. I didn't see this on LinkedIn, Nina.

unknown 15:47

That's not good. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Yeah. That's so interesting because we're from KZN. I mean, the the only thing we do know, uh, I think especially me. Don't say we, I don't know anything. Yeah, go. Because I'm from like uh up north, yeah. You know, the king's love of Zululand. 100% is the Zulu Kingdom.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

And I mean it works on along the similar similar sort of hierarchy. But you you honestly don't think it exists anywhere else outside because that's what we're used to.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

So it it it you know it exists everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

We also live in our bubble. Like we, you know, uh I'm sure people watching this won't w will also be like, I didn't know that existed, that kind of thing. In South Africa, let alone. There might be people out outside that know more about those kind of um arrangements than we do. You know how ignorant we are. We don't get taught these things in school, right? I'm I'm guessing a lot that doesn't get taught. But Model C school didn't teach you all that stuff. No, nothing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Nothing.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Because I also went to white schools from a young age. Yeah. Never learned any of that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

No.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

It's a pity.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

It is a pity. Yeah. It is a pity. And I think there's a lot of our history that, you know, isn't taught, which is a real pity.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Yeah, last week we spoke to a an actual freedom fighter guy who was like crossing the border, uh you know, people were after almost.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah, people disappearing.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

And I had no idea that this guy, I don't want to give a spoiler, but even technically it won't be a spoiler, but still, it's really interesting. Okay, but let's go back to you. So you now you wanted to get away from the chiefdom and from you wanted to be yourself, let your hair down, go to Cape Town. But you could have gone to Witz, you could have gone to Pretoria. I could, but Cape Town is beautiful. Okay. Also, let's face it, UCT is UCT.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

And had you been to Cape UCT, like so I'd been to Cape Town when I was 12. When I went when I was in school and in pre-primary school, um, they have uh a Cape Tour. I don't know if it's still going on now, but when you're in grade um gosh, what's it now? Six and seven.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

We had Unicorn.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah, standard four and five. So in standard four and five. That name though, come on guys. Unicorn Preparatory School. Yes, because they're all unique.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Ah, come on.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Unique one.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Like seriously. Shout out to Unicorn. Unicorn Prep. What's it? Unicorn Prep?

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Yeah, Unicorn Prep.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

So it wasn't an African school. I'm assuming in my head, like it's not unity.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

No, no, very English. Oh. Like super English.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

U-N I-C-O-R N, like the horse thing. Like the horse thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Um, very there was an Afrikaans school around the corner, large school. Large school Zanin. Um, so no, but we went to we went to the the the English school.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

What what languages did you speak then in Zunin? Like what what are you fluent in?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Oh, I'm fluent in English Afrikaans. Uh Tsonga, Zulu, Bedi.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Shock. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

How many is that? Five. Five.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Yeah. Yeah. That's embarrassing part. No, we had this conversation in a previous episode where it's like in South Africa, if you speak two languages, it's like you average.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Like I can speak Zulu and Kosa, but like it's I mean, I can speak Kosa, but it's a little shaky.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

And Tsonga is Shizonga, right? Shizonga. We've had a we've had a previous guest who's Shizonga, Casey Makubele, the CEO of Sada. Yes, yeah. Yeah. I think he's from Mata, uh I can't remember where. Somewhere with a with the M-A-T-A in the beginning. We digressed now. What were we saying? What were we talking about? Oh, Cape Town. Had you been to Cape Town, you've been there now?

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Yes, yeah, that's where we were. So yeah, standard four, we went down on a Cape Tour. It was actually a fantastic, I think exposure is so important, like in life.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

You know what I mean? Exposure is it it's literally a game changer. And I think if there's one thing that I could do for younger people is to expose them to things to make them realize that so much more is possible, you know, in the world. Um so in standard four and standard five, you fly down to PE, um, and then you literally drive down the garden route. Um you we even got to go on the last um coal steam engine train that is down there. We went to the tallest tree somewhere then the Titakama. We saw the Titakama Bridge, you know, all this stuff. Mossel Bay, you name it, up until you get to Cape Town. You get to Cape Town and you spend a couple of days in Cape Town, you see all the Cape Town sites, you go to the university because UCT is one of the open universities that we have in the country. So you can literally just drive up there and see everything. And I was just like, wow, you know, you've got your mountain, you've got the sea. It's fantastic and it was far. So I was like, you know, this is where I want to be.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

You set at four instead of five. Have you been to UCT? Yeah. It's it's it's beautiful. Like it's uh it's unfair.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

But can I tell you, you go there and you see, I mean, you're driving into Cape Town, you're flying into Cape Town, whichever way you get into the city, and you see upper campus, and you think that's where you're gonna be in school.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

It's like monumental.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Listen, it's fantastic. You think that's where you're gonna go to school? Nope. You're like a med student, you get tossed somewhere there in the middle of nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

That's what happens to the med student students. Everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

And then like we would get to go to um upper campus once a week on a Friday to do chemistry and physics.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Yeah. It's engineering.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

That was it.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

It's engineering department or BA upper campus.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

So upper campus is everything except for medicine, arts, and um and by arts I mean fine arts. Yeah. Um and law, because law is middle campus, and then medical school is medical school, and then fine arts is in heading.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

So So you you knew Cape Town was a thing from grade seven, grade six-ish tour.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

And then you applied and got into UCT and uh what was it like transitioning from Limpopo to Western Cape? It it could be.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

It that wasn't the transition for me.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

I I went to high school. I mean, let me give you an idea. I went to the most beautiful high school in this country. People will say whatever they want about where they went to school, but I went to the most beautiful high school. It's on a mountainside and it overlooks two lakes. And the school literally starts at the bottom um where you have a recreational center. At that point, there was even a barnyard and a climbing wall. Um, and then you go up. And it's the um hostels. And then you go a little bit further up. Um it used to be an old hotel. So the main hostel actually used to be where the hotel actually stood. Um and then you go further up and it's the classrooms that are structured in an amphitheater. So you're overlooking these lakes as far as Stanford Lake College.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Okay. True.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

It sounds like it's it's it's beautiful. And over time it's gotten even linier. Yeah. Um and um Did you board there? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Because you you said hostels, and I'm thinking, okay, it's giving boarding.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Yeah, no, no. I was a weekly boarder, which they say isn't real boarding. Not really. My husband says it's not real boarding. You're not spending the weekends there. No, you're not spending the weekends there. Um and they did our washing for us. He's like, you're definitely not in real boarding school.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Yeah. Look at this thing. It sounds like a hotel. How come we've never heard of this? I don't know. Wow. They're the only advertiser overseas. Like, it's for royalty only. Jeez. No, it looks really cool.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

It is absolutely gorgeous.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Yeah, no, no, you're Michaelha's Hilton Vice. You're right. Yeah, it's better than the game.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

With the lakes, it's better than them. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Stanford Lake College.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

It's absolutely beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

So how far away from your 52 kilometers from home. Okay. Um you could have been a day student if you wanted.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

There were lots of day students.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

But it was very small. At the time that I was there, it was very, very small. Um, I mean, you can just think about this in Matric, there were only 48 students in Matric. That was the entire Matric class split into two classes. So, and my my my classmates then were people that I've some people I've known since I was three.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

So we literally have just grown up together. And and also I think there were maybe like eight black kids.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

I was gonna ask, what's the demographics like? So you mean mostly whites?

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

And students from around the area.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

So students from around the area, because it's a lot of farming communities in that in the Limpopo area, obviously. Um, but um also a lot from Johannesburg, because parents wanted to take their kids out of the city, you know, somewhere. Um, a lot of kids from same reasons. Um, and then we actually got a lot of people who are coming in from Botswana.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Um, quite a lot of people coming in from Botsw. So, you know, I came from a place where I knew everybody, um, very small. And um the the the the the boarding situation. Um I had a um what's this? I had a what do you call them? Yeah. It's not a housemate, it's a roommate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, just one roommate. Is it a co-ed? Yeah, it is co-ed.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

I had a I had a roommate.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Obviously a girl.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, and I mean we shared maybe amongst six of us, we shared one bathroom, so very few of us. Um it was always clean. Um it it was just it was it was just very homely.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yeah. Very privileged. I mean that's the truth of it. I'm not getting the word homely.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

No, that is that that's the truth of it. But it it I I guess it felt homely because I've known everybody all my life. Yes, of course. Um and then you go to UCT. And and I think the other thing is that you know it's a private school, and private school comes with private school things.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Private schools are more expensive than universities.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

They are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Yeah, I'm thinking at this point, UCT would be like a step backwards. Step down.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Not not in my school, not at not then. I don't know what it's like now, but like then it was, you know, it was still UCT. Um and then but but for me the shocker was going into um res and being exposed to different levels of social economic you know what I mean? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Welcome to the real world, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

That was literally it. It was and it's still that's not even the real world. Yeah. Um, so that for me was the the biggest thing. But it it also was such a an eye-opener, you know, because it just it it exposed me to so many just you know different things. And I think it ended up helping in the medical career because when you when you're seeing patients, it's not gonna be just your friends and family. You know, you're not gonna be seeing the same things that you're gonna be seeing in Santin Mediclinic that you're going to be seeing in Tembe Saw Hospital. Um, it's gonna be, you know, chalk and cheese. I think that made for a good introduction into your Which rays were you at? Ooh, we Rochester. Rochester. Oh, I hated every minute of it.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Why?

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Oh, there was nothing to love.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Tell tell me about like so is it one of these small like jail cell rooms and you you've got a communal kitchen and a communal shower and all that stuff? Yeah, that was it. No, I get it. I get it. Yeah. Don't worry, I totally you come from more privilege than I do, but yeah, I know what you what what you mean. Because now you've got a terrible with more more than six people that you were used to. But so you were used to living away from home. Yeah. Yeah. But not among the people. I mean, one of my colleagues is gonna be really happy that we got you on because she always tells me, yes, we're tired of like the Rags to Richard story. We get somebody from privileged to come in and talk about things. So own it, own it and No, look, I do own it.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

And I'm and I'm grateful for it. You know what I mean? I don't run away from it. Um and I think that it is, I mean, let me tell you a story. Um when I did my final year Obs and Gami Oral, um I got into the oral, and you know, you're supposed to be there. You come with your portfolio of patients, you're supposed to present your your patients, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. So I get there, I, you know, put my portfolio down, and I start my presentation. And the professor stops me. He's like, You speak so well. Oh literally.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

He's like, You speak so well. Where are you from? What do your parents do? You that was where did you go to school? That was my entire odds and ghini oral. I passed. But it wasn't because unless of course you read something that was world-changing on that page.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

I mean, you you do own it, I think, what well, what Yash said, but I th you I think you're very humble about it. Because if we didn't like pry, we wouldn't have known you're a princess. You you come across very like. How many other princesses do you know yet? One, actually. Oh two. Kathmandu, yeah. Oh, and how's she? She's a pretty child. She's also in no, she's in Pete's, but she's in um she's in Manhattan. Maybe that's a princess thing. Like they're very humble people. How do we know? Like, why do we have this expectation that a princess is good. Oh, maybe it's probably saying why stop being like a princess. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, from like childhood. I answered my own question. Sure. Yeah, but well done for your humility. The guy that said it, was he white? Yeah, of course. Yeah, okay. That's oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

No, I mean you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

So it's one of those you you're well spoken, you speak so well to. I speak so well. That's such a like a cliched type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

It's being And like I literally was so surprised. I was so super surprised.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Was that was that your honesty moment? But imagine surprise. Imagine if you said it.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

It was it was surprised. No, it was surprised because I I I I I've always spoken as I have spoken. Um, and I mean, growing up, like I said, I mean I was in I was in a white school since the age of three. So uh even now, like I speak to my son in Zonga, and people are like, and I'm like, I didn't grow up speaking English until I went to school. Because they're like, Oh, you're putting him at such a disadvantage, all of these weird and wonderful things. And I'm like, no, I didn't grow up that way. So why should I now cut my son away from his grandparents, from his, you know, is half of his people. His heritage, yeah. You you know what I'm saying? Because language is the first thing that you get in. So I I literally was just like, what do you mean I speak so well? This is how people speak. Did you expect me to in your in your mind, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Oh, of course. You had to have known like you you had a very unique set of circumstances, experiences that would have been seen as different to other people.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Yes, I did, because I I I I did know because, say, for example, I have a friend who has done like very well. But when he came into varsity, right, he had A, never sat across the table from a white person. He had to um he thought in um, so he had to think in translate, and even if we had to write something down, um, he had to write it in isithas, then translate it into English, and then type it. Do you do you get what I'm saying? Whereas like somebody asked me, Do you dream in English? And I'm like, I actually don't know. You see what I'm saying? So it's not that I wasn't aware of it. Um I just I just I didn't know any different for myself. You you know what I mean? I I I I I I didn't expect anybody to tell me I speak well. Because I think and it also was, I suppose, now when I think about it, I think which is really unfortunate, I think that as as black people, and maybe I can take it so fast as black women, there's a presumption of um incompetence. So I think when I get there and I'm speaking, I was like, oh maybe you know something. You know, I mean that still happens to me to this day.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

So maybe that was just the beginning back then, you know, of And if you think about it, he didn't ask you anything technical, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Nothing.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Yeah. So th what you're saying is probably true. He's like, okay, she she's sharp.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Yeah, she must know something. You know, it's almost like pretty privilege, but I suppose accent privilege. Accent privilege, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also a real thing. Accent privilege is a real thing. If somebody comes and speaks in an accent that isn't resonating well with you, there's a part of your brain that will switch off and be like, oh.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yes. Because all he's basically saying to you is, well, you've got a a private school accent.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yeah. All he's saying is that you measure up.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Yeah, yeah. It's we we've got a funny story because Yak one of your ex friends knows both of us, Yak and me. And he says to me, Yesh, how come Yak speaks so nice and so well, but you and you guys are cousins, but you speak so differently. I'm like, hold on. Firstly, Yak twangs, that's why. And secondly, he doesn't speak so well. Like he doesn't speak so well. How do you know I'm not twanging when I'm on the India? He doesn't speak well, that's just his accent. You know, d don't get it twisted.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

No, but but can I tell you something? I think Indian people code switch so well.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

The ones you know, maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Like you know, you code switch so well.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Code switching is is is um a nice way of saying twanging.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

No, actually. Like, you know there are people who will twang. Yeah. But say for example, if I were to not be in the room, you guys would be speaking as you would be speaking. In our code, yeah. Exactly. You know what I mean? But as soon as somebody else comes into the room, the y'alls go away. Yes, yes, yes. You know, the see him, see you, what he that all goes away. And it it it happens so quickly, it literally blows my mind.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Okay, but Yak is a twanger. He's not a code. Just leave it at that. I tried, yeah. I'm a coder.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

I tried.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

So well, like do your parents go and drop you off at Rez from like do you all fly down and then they drop you off at moms and tears?

SPEAKER_00 34:02

My my parents dropped me off at Rez. Um Rochester, yeah. Yeah, listen, I cried. You cried. Oh my god. I was like, no, don't leave me here.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Um you chose this thing. You were.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

I did, but I wanted fuller.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

I wanted Tagwald.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Come on. Um Fuller houses.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

That's true. But how do you even know about how do people know about what the houses represent and where they bring?

SPEAKER_00 34:28

How do you not know? Don't you research where you're going? No, not at all.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

No. Oh no, I did. And what did you hear about the other houses that were different?

SPEAKER_00 34:36

No, it's just like they it's that thing. They have the the prestige, they have the fun.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

They have why didn't you get into it? How come?

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Because I was in med school. Proximity. Proximity. Because you'd have to get on a jammy.

unknown 34:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Those are buses, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:51

I think they're called something different now. But oh yeah, because yeah, yeah, it's definitely something different. Um, I wonder what it is. Um but yeah, because you'd have to get on a jammy, whereas from Rochester, Carinus or Carendon, you could literally just walk um to med school. And if ever you were working or whatever, you know, uh if you're in GSH, you could still, when you finish your shift at 7 p.m., you could just walk back to wherever you were staying.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

So GSH is Kruta's care. Yeah. That's the academic hospital link to the university. Yeah. Yeah. So you were crying, your parents were like, no, you'll be fine, don't worry. I was like, you'll be fine. And how was it?

SPEAKER_00 35:29

And like, so for the first three years, um, every time I came home, I was like, I want to go back, I'll transfer, I'll move to Vitz. I'll So the first how many years? Three years. I wanted to leave every year. Really? Yeah. And I didn't I I I wasn't necessarily wanting to leave medicine. I just really disliked Res that much. I get it. So why didn't they, I mean they should have put you in one of the oh, but Cape Town's expensive. No, no, so I had to I had to write like a motivation for my dad. Yeah. So To your death. I literally had to I had to put down a business plan to be on some. This is how much you're spending on RES, this is how much we'd spend outside of REST da da da da. Yeah. Put it down in paper, you know, for approval from the chief. Um and and that's how I managed to finally get out of to get out of REST to be on some, you know, it it just doesn't make sense for me to be here.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

So you moved to digs, I'm sure. Like a cohabitation?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

No, no, so so um a friend of mine, um we we got into an apartment, and um, yeah, that's we were there.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

But what was so bad about RES?

SPEAKER_00 36:34

It was a terrible man.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Yeah, the sharing and fever shower and communal shelter.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

How I think how I actually managed to get out was um in fourth year, you go to Medres, and Medres is proper co-ed. Now, think back to a time, it's the it's the residence that is on campus, like on medical school. Um, it's it's fantastic for the fact that it's on medical school, literally at the door of the library. So um back then when it was all started, there weren't any female medical students. So it's all it was all males. So one time my dad comes to visit me, and he's like, Where are the bathrooms? I'm like, over there. So he goes to the bathrooms. There's the the bathroom stores are here, there's urinals here, then there's showers there, and there's a there's bathtubs over here. So my dad obviously walks in and sees the urinals. He's just like, Where's the girls' bathroom? I'm like, that's where you went, is where we all go.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

And I think that probably pushed my my my um You should have made him go to the bathroom sooner. And I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

I was no, I'd move to a different res. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

Back the the first res had blocks for girls and blocks for boys. Yeah. So they were still safe. So I think that's and med school itself? How was that? Um I think med school, once you get past second year, you're fine.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Um anatomy in second year. Is it so what's the killer subject?

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Nothing. I think I think I I I think the for me it's not that anything was particularly killer, but I prefer the hands on things. And once you get into third year, you get into your clinical years, so it becomes more practical. You know, you're not looking at some histological sample and they're telling you it's purple and you're sure you've seen green. You know, so it's it's a lot less abstract. Those first two years, I mean, i it's chemistry, it's physics, it's um, you know, histology. Um, but it it's not coming together quite yet. And I think once you get into third year, you start interacting with people, um, it starts becoming a little bit more practical and less theory. So it just becomes more enjoyable, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

More real, huh? More real. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Yeah, definitely more real. Definitely real.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

But you were willing to give it all up?

SPEAKER_00 39:05

No, to just move to Witz.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Oh, you wanted to come to Witts?

SPEAKER_00 39:08

I just wanted to, you know what I mean? I just I don't want to be Joe Bug. Come to Cape Town.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

Did you even enjoy Cape Town? Like as a as a message. Cape Town. Like just get a chance to.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Yes, no, I loved Cape Town. Um, I mean in final year, I don't know why they did this to us. They were really trying to sabotage us. They had lectures in final year on Fridays, Friday afternoons. I mean, Cape Town. Come on. You're just asking for trouble. You know what I mean? There's the beaches and Cape Town, the nice thing about Cape Town is there's a lot of activities you can get into for free.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

You know, you can go walking, hiking, you don't have to pay for a lot of that. You can go to the beach, you don't have to pay for that, as opposed to Johannesburg where everything you have to pay to play. Um, so I actually really enjoy Cape Town as a place. I still do, but just to visit, I wouldn't live there again.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Um and the classmates and stuff, good friends, did you make friends?

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was a lot of my friends were also in Salonbosch, so I spent a lot of time in Stalys as well. Um, which was also fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

I have this impression that UCT students come from far and wide, and it's not like so what was it like? Were there lots of international students?

SPEAKER_00 40:18

There were. There were. They they really there were. Um not so much studying medicine.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Yeah. What was it like? South African son.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Yeah, yeah. Um, but you know, from from other the the nice thing about having been in Rochester is that that, you know, we had students from everywhere and that they were studying different disciplines and so so you got to mix and mingle with, you know, a whole lot of other people. Which was fantastic. I think the other resors might get a little bit more of that. Um, but I mean also by the time my sister went to UCT, we we thought she was running the what's it now? Um it's called the AU, but back then it was the OAU. You know, because she had literally friends. What's that? African Union. Oh, okay. She had friends from everywhere, like the continent. Yeah, I get you. You know, I mean she was in Uganda the other day for a friend's wedding. So yes, I think you're quite right. It is it is a great melting pot for for people. Joe Burg is a great a great melting pot for South Africans, but I think Cape Town is definitely for Africans.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Yeah, yeah. And any horror stories from med school? No. What is it like? People don't really talk badly about UCT. Well, we don't know many UCT medics, do we? Do you? Yeah, yeah. Personally, I do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

That's nothing bad to say.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Nothing bad at all, huh? I feel like they it very much. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Trauma block protecting the legacy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

No, like I I I I couldn't yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Stanford Lake College called you back to come give a talk or something.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

So I actually gave a speech at my sister's um valediction.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Um, so I did that. But I haven't gone back recently. And I actually really do want to go back because my math my English teacher um in in um in Matric, uh, Mrs. Thompson, I'll never forget her. She always just said, Why are you going to go study medicine? Like, you know, you don't you want to go do law? Don't you want to? I actually found her a couple of years ago. So well, come on. Hello. Didn't see it that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

Talk about codes which is from patient to client.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Literally.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

So so yeah. So she was just like, you know, what about law? And and I reached out to her a couple of years ago and I was like, you know, actually, I actually went and it happened. So I was just like, oh wow. I'm like, yeah, I I did it. I did it.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

So tell us about well, no, no, first, let's not go there. You qualify, right? It's six years at UCT. Yeah. You passed every year despite wanting to leave in the first three.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Well, no, my mother was just like, forget it. Because now you can actually leave after three years and get a degree.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Like what? A BSC.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

No.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

No, uh now you can. And you can even branch off into um you know the sciences.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

It's like you're selling dentistry, eh?

SPEAKER_02 43:16

I don't think I'm selling it. I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Um so now you can you can branch out and you know become a scientist. Um, you know, after your three years, so you don't actually have to, you know, finish. Whereas back then it was just like uh nope. You you either see it through or you quit and you know you get nothing for your years of effort. So um yeah, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

I know you've you finished in 2011, right? Um yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you I did some research last night. Um and then you have to do internship, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Yeah, two years.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Where do you go?

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Um Bulugwani Mangwang Complex.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

So I went back home. Um my grandparents, I was really very close with my grandparents. Parents. My grandparents actually lived down the road from us. So they served as a second set of parents. So I absolutely loved my grandparents. They were getting on in the years and I wanted to be close to them. But also my baby sister was finishing. I call her my babysitter, she's a grown woman. Always be your babysitter. You know what I mean? She was finishing off high school, and I thought it would just be nice to be close to everybody. So I the the thing about it is that we were all very we're very privileged and lucky to have very stable upbringings. You know what I mean? We went the same, all three of us went to the same preschool, um, same primary school, same high school. We've lived in the same house. You had pi both parents and you had grandparents. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? So very stable. Um so yeah, so I just wanted to go back home and I just wanted to just be part of that because you're so far when you're in Cape Town. You know, so many things happen and you're not part of it for a very long time. Um so I went back. I went back to PLK, did my internship ComServe, and actually worked there for a couple of years.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

And ComServe also. Yeah. And worked there.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

And you're the first doctor in the family.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

No. No, what? Mm-mm. Uh my dad's younger brother is actually a psychiatrist. Okay. My mom's youngest brother is also a doctor.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

That's the coolest specialty.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Psychiatry. I think it's sad.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

I think it's the coolest, man.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

I think it's so sad. Can you imagine your brain your brain b betraying you?

SPEAKER_02 45:32

I wanted to be be a psychiatrist.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Oh, that's so sad. You're a better off in dentist.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

D did you want to specialize in anything?

SPEAKER_00 45:40

You know, initially, um, I thought radiology sexy. Is it sexy? It really is. Can you imagine? This was my dream. So my dream was that you have like your little iPad or whatever it is, you know what I mean, and you're like shopping somewhere, but you're actually on call, and you just whip out the app on your iPad and you just look and then you dictate your report and you've done your job, but you're shopping.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

Well, your idea can be done anywhere in the world. Okay, well, your idea of sexy is very different from my idea. Both are your ideas of sexy is like. Yeah, well, yeah, you disrupt. So stop, don't even come here. But I mean, AI is kind of revolutionizing that whole speciality. Yeah, no, no, but that that's changed. Uh you know, there was a thing where people were saying AI is going to take over, there's gonna be no radiologists. Apparently now there's more radiologists because of AI. Because AI is doing the stuff, it's allowing the radiologists to do what they need to do, like more doctorish stuff.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

So, yeah, the interventional stuff. So, I mean, good for them.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

So you were thinking about that?

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Yeah, I thought about that.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

And but then Because you wanted to shop and work at the same time. Yeah. What a what a motivating nice everybody has their own motivation. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Everybody for me it it's it's it's it was just the flexibility. Yes. You know what I mean? The the not having to be at the hospital all the time. Radios. Which specialty gets paid the most? Ooh, good question.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

You know, sometimes when I read these medical legal reports, I just and well, when I see the invoices to the medical legal reports, I'm just like, I left medicine too soon. Yeah. So those guys, you know, they they're doing okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

The radiologists.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

No, the the experts in the medical legal field. Yeah, they're doing they're doing all right.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Um But you know what doctors say the same thing when they look at lawyers' bills, right? Or invoice.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

So they're looking at the sperm. The grass is always greener on the other side. Sometimes there is no grass. We just don't know it.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Exactly. You're gonna tell us about that. Like, so when does the Okay, so you did internship comserve the PLK, you call it, as you guys call it from there. Poloquine for the rest of us. Um complex. When does the law then come in? Um or the medicine disappear?

SPEAKER_00 47:47

So so no, I mean I I then I was I was in PLK, um, and after comserve, I sort of fell into emergency medicine, right? Initially, it was in um, you know, polo coin. And then I was like, it's time, it's time to go, you know. Um I I just felt like things weren't because I did my ACLS and ATLS, and then you get back into that environment, and everyone's just like, you know, I've been doing this like this since heaven knows when. And the actual reason why I went to those courses is because I I don't, you know, I think as doctors, we don't speak about the trauma we go through, right? Um, my first internal medicine call as an intern, not ComServe, not anything, as an intern, um, I'm in casualty. It really was. My one of my bosses, fantastic woman, she was just like, no, casualty is where they direct traffic. We are in an emergency department. We actually three patients. Um, I was in casualty and I get a call from the medical ward, and in the background, while they're calling, saying this woman is crying of chest pain, in the background, they you can hear her screaming. You know, you can hear that this woman is in absolute agony. I'm like, I just qualified yesterday. You know, I uh I just arrived. I just arrived, right? Um, and so I go to the ward, I literally get to the ward, boom, this woman has collapsed. Right? I'm like, you know, get the ECG, where the where's you know, where's the resus trolley? You know, there's literally no rush, no urgency, nothing. I'm like, call the senior on call. Um first he doesn't answer the call, right? Eventually he answers the phone and he's like, oh, I'm in Mako Pagany. I'm like, you're on call. You can't be an hour away. We have an active recess. You know, oh, no, just get on with it. Um, you know, I'm I'm I'm coming. I'm like, what do you mean? You know, the defibrillator, they don't have like anything. You know, I mean, they don't have the gel. The defibrillator is not reading anything on the patient's test, is it on, is it off? You actually don't know. So we literally are just there. Two other interns come, we literally are just doing CPR on this woman. And at that point, I felt like I wasn't far enough in my career or knowledgeable enough to know, you know, now I can tell you, have we corrected the H's and T's? Have we looked at this? Have we looked at the other thing? Okay, fine, we've tried, there's nothing reversible, let's call it. Then I didn't. So I thought that maybe this guy would come with knowledge and input and save this woman's life. He didn't come. And after an hour, I had to be on some there's nothing. At that point, this woman's family are pacing up and down the corridor praying. So now you're there, you have to go outside, tell them that listen.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

And you're the first year intern, right? Fresh out of Krutaskia.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Fresh out of Krutaskia.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

So with this patient demise.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

She did. She did. In retrospect, I think perhaps it was in retrospect, I think perhaps she either had like a huge um, you know, heart attack or she had a PE. You know, but but I I don't know, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

Um But her life was in the hands of a first-year intern, basically.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

That's the problem. You know what I mean? And no one saw anything wrong with that. You know, as a as a as a comserve in Odz and Gaini, um, I two in the morning, again, my senior is like not answering the phone. She's like, not coming. She's like, no, we're not gonna open a second theater. And and this was the point where I actually was just like, this is where the law came in. Um she's like, no, we're not I'm not coming. They're not gonna open a second theater. It's me. There's an intern. Can you see how tiny my hands are? The intern's hands are even smaller. Like I was a size six glove. The size six gloves were big on her. This poor girl has been up all day, all night. It's two in the morning. There's a um a Primigrev who's been pushing for about 30 minutes. She's now been prepared to go to theatre. She enrolls a woman, a previous season, times three, in active labor, four centimeters dilated, unbooked. So now I'm there having to make the decision between that first-time mom and this woman. This woman is at risk of rapturing her uterus and dying. This woman is at risk of losing her baby. But the baby isn't recognized as a person. The mom is a person, the mom is a maternal death. She's got at least three other kids that she's already taken care of. So, you know, at that point a decision must be made. And she's the one that needs to, you know, go to theater. So we switch, we take her to theater. The You call the shot, yeah. I'm calling the shot. Me.

SPEAKER_02 53:21

Maybe me. Not even a fully qualified doctor, really, you know.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

No, because I haven't done conserv. I'm not an independent practitioner. This is my com survivor. Um, and then and and this is not a C-section I'm qualified to do. You know what I mean? Because if anything happens, this is a woman that's gonna require a hysterectomy because she's not clotting, she's not doing whatever.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Wait, sorry, one quick side note. Sure. Um, and forgive the ignorance, but you mentioned your hand size there. Yeah. Wouldn't uh smaller hands beam make things easier?

SPEAKER_00 53:53

No.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

No.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

No. Okay. Because small hands, we we struggle to grip things. It's it's just well, at least I do. And this intern did too, you know. Um it's great if you're a seamstress and you're working finicky things, but in the in that particular thing it was just, you know. So we we switch, we take this woman to um theater. It's like two in the morning. Um, and because she had so much scarring from her previous operations, it was very complicated. What what we what I knew to do at the time, I'd only ever seen one classic Caesar, right? And assisted in that classic Caesar. I'd never seen, you know, or I'd never I'd never assisted in a classic Caesar other than that one time. And so um, you know, we're there now. You can't get into a lower segment. It's just not possible. And so the nurse, uh bless her heart, sister Yvonne, she was like, and something's a cut. We'll we'll suit her, you know. So we literally cut, we're cutting all these adhesions, we, you know, trying super hard to maintain like hemostasis because she could bleed. Um, and you don't know what you're dealing with because she's unbooked. So you don't know if she has an HB of 12 coming in or an HB of nine. So, you know, you're already Massive risk factors.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

A hundred percent. Going in blind, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Yeah, so completely blind. So we do the C-section, deliver the baby. Um, I'm praying to high heaven that all these sutures hold and that this woman is fine. Um, and so afterwards she's fine. We take her to high care though, um, for her to continue her monitoring in high care. Um the following morning, which was literally maybe an hour or two hours after we come out of theater, we have a ward round. And I'm like, I'm lamenting to the consultant that, listen, oh, it was so rough, this, that, and the other thing. Um, you know, this is what we had to do last night. Um, you know, this doctor, your colleague, didn't come out. Um, and she instructed not to open a second theater, and so we had to choose between this mom or this mom. And um got in there, obviously difficult this thing. It was just like why are you crying? Baby's born, mom is fine, like get over it. I was just like, and that was the day where I was just like, actually, I'm done. I'm actually like I'm finished. So I then, you know, I finished my commser. But what a traumatizing story. Completely, because that other woman's baby died.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

Sure. I mean, you had two lives in your hands. Yes. You know, yak, we don't realize these things, right? Because we would the stakes are not that high in dentistry. Like if you if the if you break a tooth in comserve and you should do a surgical extraction, the worst thing that can happen is the patient will go back with a root in their jaw or something. Whereas here now, two lives at stake, were you not shaken out, like shaken after completely shaken.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

I d I literally took sick leave.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

After that, I took sick leave and I was just like You're probably just functioning on adrenaline, right? That that completely completely on adrenaline. Like it there was nothing else. And I think it it just was so shocking because I was always under the impression that we come into this to help people. You know what I mean? I uh you you're a little bit inconvenienced by the fact that you have to wake up in the middle of the night, but it it it's part of the you know, it's it's it's it's part of the vocation. Yes. You know what I mean? It's not just a job.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

But no, your story is not unique. We've heard many people tell this. So why do you think that we are like this?

SPEAKER_00 57:48

I couldn't tell you. And sometimes perhaps it's the you know, the the Stanford prison trial. You get put where they they split up the class into prisoners and prison wardens. Yeah. And they were classmates, but then they're the wardens turned against the So perhaps people get put into these positions of power and they're just like, you must suffer like we suffered, or I I I can't tell you.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

What I'm what I'm hearing is, and you the common thread in your story is this was it was it's always this the negligence is coming from by above.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Yeah. Above. I think we when when you're young, you come in, you're bright-eyed, you're bushy-tailed, you're coming in from GSH where everything is working and life is fantastic. Um, and your consultants and registrars are on on site, you know what I mean? Um, whereas now you go somewhere else and they are 30 kilometers away or 40, 50 kilometers away. So that that for me was was a big thing. And I the the thing that touched me in those couple of years was the fact that when the people who sometimes were doing these things, their families were not coming to these hospitals. You know what I mean? There there's no skin in the game for them, exactly. And when there was skin in the game, somebody from higher up would tell you to come bump this patient off so that this person could come and take over this bed or whatever the case may be. Um I I I just thought that needed to be.

SPEAKER_02 59:13

I have a theory. I just think that a lot of people get into healthcare for the wrong reasons. So they don't really care. Because it's a basic thing, right? Humanity. Like if you know that somebody might die if you don't come, how can you not bother? But there's so many people that just don't bother.

SPEAKER_00 59:30

Right?

SPEAKER_02 59:31

You know, so it must be something about it.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

It will blow your mind, yes, the things that actually happen.

SPEAKER_02 59:38

Like I can get, you know, we've worked office jobs, right? Yeah. If you've got a deadline and then you're like, oh, you know what, I'll extend that deadline. That's fine. Nobody's gonna die. No one's gonna die. That's what Donald Denny used to tell me. Nobody's gonna die.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

That has been my thing since I stepped into a law firm. I was just like, guys, relax. No one's dying. Like genuinely, I just got the perspective, yeah. No one's dying. You know what I mean? You can put as many exclamation marks on your urgent email.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:04

Yeah, it's not gonna make me jump.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

Or copy as many uh copy all the partners. It's not gonna make me jump. Because worst case scenario, literally, outside of like an urgent application to get a transfusion for a baby, it's just a bit of money.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

Literally, nobody's gonna die.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

No one's gonna die.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

So that that moment of your superior not coming out, it's like, okay, I need to change, but what made you think of law? Where did the law come?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

So I mean it didn't it didn't come for a while. I was just like, something needs to change.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

Um so then after when I finished concept, I took a break until the money ran out. Um and so I had to go back and like work. And then What was it like earning money?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:44

Because you you probably didn't need it that much as a trail. I don't know. What was it? What did you do with your first paycheck? Can you remember?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

I got my parents' gifts. Um yeah, I got my parents' gifts. Uh then I don't remember what happened to the rest of it. But yeah. Um What were you doing with your money? Generally. Yeah. Shopping? Probably eating well. Really? Yeah. Were you investing or saving me? Of course. Um, I mean, I I did buy a place. So at least I did that. I did that. I did get an investment property. That that that was yeah. Um But I spent a lot of time in Johannesburg because PLK is How far is it from about 300Ks?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

So you drive three hours or Jo what were you doing in Joburgh?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

My sister lived here. Uh my sister's been here forever. Um so I just come here, go out for dinner, go out and party. I was young then, I had energy.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

Um so yeah, no, I spent quite a bit of time in Johannesburg. And then yeah, I would head back on Sunday nights and get ready for Monday. So that's probably where my money went, petrol. Yes. And partying.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:52

Any like do you wish you'd done anything different with your money or no regrets?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

Gosh. I'm sure I could have done better things. Yeah. But nobody was there to teach us, like, or tell us. That is so true. You're blaming other people. No, but but genuine facts, the only time when we got any communications from banks was when you were in final year just before you graduated and they come give you a fancy card and a huge line of credit. That's it. The zebra. Not the unicorn. This time. No, literally the zebra, you know. But I don't think we had the zebra back.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:22

That's what we call this this episode from unicorns to zebras. Yeah? No, th it was the zebra, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

No, we had FNB come.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:31

Yeah. I'm pretty sure Investec was not targeting. No, I'm thinking of I'm thinking of Lawford, because when when I was at Norton Rose, in Invested came for us.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

Yeah, but but that was much later.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:41

And and the funny thing is we're earning much less.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:44

Hello. Yeah. That because you you come out of med school and you're earning from the beginning so much more than your peers. Yeah. You know what I mean? At some point it it sort of levels out and cause now they're partners and we still just you know. Um but you know, when you're coming out, it's just you know, the first salary I made as a lawyer was less than the first salary I made as a doctor. And the difference was what, like 10 years almost.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

Okay, sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

Yeah. Yeah. No, I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:16

So lawyers and people think, oh yeah, wearing fancy suits and nice Right, then Santa.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Yeah, no chance. Bad chance. Um, but yeah, no, then I I had to go back to work and that's how I discovered casualty. And I I actually thought, and I did that for a couple of years, because I really enjoyed it. Um, it's immediate, you know, satisfaction. Like people come in, they are severely injured, you reduce their shoulder, you splint the broken leg, you you know, put in the ICD, you stitch them, you put in a catheter, and they they're better immediately. So it it's it was just so gratifying.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:59

This was a state as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:02

Also in No, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

So I did a little bit in in in PLK, but a lot of my emergency experience was actually here in Johannesburg. Um it was it was fantastic. It really, really was. I actually even did my diploma in emergency medicine. Um because I thought, okay, cool, we could do this. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:23

Um was it were there lots of like violent crimes and all that stuff or not? It's Johannesburg. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

Of course they are.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

You know, Wednesday afternoon gunshots. You know, it's it's on a Wednesday afternoon.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:35

Literally on a Wednesday afternoon. They don't take time off the wait for the weekend.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:39

Thursday, Friday, uh please. Yeah, you know. Um so it was very exciting. Um I I really enjoyed it, but at some point I just sat down with myself and I was like, I'm still in adult pajamas.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

You know, and I think that the itch the the the injustices, for lack of a better word, still were going on. You know what I mean? And it was still just helping the end user, you know what I mean, where there was so much more going on, you know, that could, you know, change the situation. And not just from a clinical practice perspective. You know what I mean? Not from all the other different angles, not from like social, not from this, but just from a clinical practice perspective where you can see that practice could just be so much better, you know, not just for the clinicians. Um, I mean, for the clinicians, because in turn, better doctors will help patients better. Yes. You know what I mean? Um, and just efficiencies in the system as well. Um, so so that was it. I was just like, actually, you know, there was this that I wanted to go do. So let's just go do it. Which is law.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:53

Uh like how does that come in? No, seriously. Like we'll law.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:56

So in randomly. In my mind, right, the And and and I've I've always wanted to be able to help people, right? Um and like I was saying that it just felt like the end user is getting helped. And so going into law, what I wanted to do was to affect change on a bigger scale. Right. Um and Because lawyers can do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:24

It's a common thing that I say. Like clinicians will change one person's life at a time.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

Hundred percent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:30

But lawyers, engineers, scientists, they can change the world. Yeah. Yeah. Policymakers as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

But not even that. I mean, if if you look at some of the cases that like like say big cases, right? You know, those cases change practice in the sense of like how um certain things will be done. You know. Um take take I mean just a random thing. Euthanasia, for example. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

Sets precedent.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:58

A hundred percent. You know, it sets precedent. Um, the law says you can or you can't. Abortion, same. Law says you can or you can't. You know what I mean? Doctors will be the people that implement whatever it is that the law has already said. Um so it it really does, you know, filter down to the patient if that starting point is decent. It'll filter down hopefully. Well, sometimes things get lost in the mix, but the idea is that you can touch more than just the one patient in front of you.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:30

So who did you speak to? Who gave you this idea about it?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:32

No one. Just no one. No one. I literally was just like There's no chat GPT in those days. There really wasn't, eh? Yeah. We would have done so much better in life.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:41

And where did you apply? Like what? No, wait, wait, wait. We don't just so you you just one day you say I'm gonna do law and who do you tell?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

Um, I applied first. I applied. Quietly.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:52

You just quietly applied.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

Quietly applied. Then I told my parents, my mom was just like, no, what do you mean? Why you know why? Because her daughter wasn't gonna be a doctor anymore. Because my mom comes from the the the time when you know that there's prestige in being a a doctor.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:09

All our parents come.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:11

You know what I mean? No, I'm just gonna be a lawyer. Like you throw a stone and you hit a lawyer. So I was like to my mom, I'm still gonna be a doctor. Like, don't worry. You know, just think about it as me having specialized in law. When people are specializing in, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

Your mom was smart. She knew hey, don't do law. Yeah, I should have listened. Yeah. Like my dad told me don't do it. But I don't get you it's not like you're relinquishing one degree for the other. You still can be both.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

And it but but in in my mind, I think I still am, because like I'm saying, it's like I just specialized in law. Because you know, uh a doctor who's doing public health is no less a doctor just because they're not toting a stethoscope every day.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

You know what I mean? I still I still do a lot of um clinical related things and more so now because now I've sort of moved into like the risk side of clinical practice. Um so still engaging a lot with with you know doctors, nurses, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Um so yeah, I I don't feel like I let one go. I'm just not risking catching TB every day. Yeah, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:19

Oh wait, sorry, can I ask? You said no, no, you can't. So you no, you said no, you you don't. But like you keep practicing both. But can you practice both? Uh Nabeen. Technically. Naveen is, yeah. Naveen. Remember we had Nabeen and Ido on. He did both. Yeah. Pay attention in the internet. He was in Australia, man. No, in South Africa, he was doing both here. Oh, yeah, but that was back in the day. No, can you?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:40

You can do it too.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

Okay. Like technically you can. So why don't you? Practically speaking.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:44

Do you want to? I really enjoy sleeping at home. And also not dodging catching TB every day.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

And practically speaking, like you you cannot give either one the attention it deserves if you're doing both.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:56

It depends. So when I studied, I studied full-time and I worked part-time.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:01

Yeah, I want to ask you about this because that's that's but but wait, I want to pause there. Let's just go back to you. Break it to your mom. She has some sense in her to say, don't do it, don't do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

She wasn't like, don't do it, don't do it. She was just like, My kid's not gonna be a doctor anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:16

I can't go tell the community, uh, my daughter's a doctor. And you're old man?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:21

I know my dad was like, she's paying for herself, man. Let her go do it. Like, you know. Yeah. Because you have to pay for yourself. Yeah, she was like, no, you're paying for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:28

So you quietly apply where to Eunisa?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:29

No, I applied to Vert. No, I went on the edge.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:33

Yeah. Yeah. So what was the plan to like not practice and do full-time uh what was the plan?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:39

Um, I I I if I did it through Eunissa, I don't think I'd be an attorney right now. Why? Because of what you said. Yeah. Because you you don't you your attention and time will be um your attention and time will be so split. Um and uh medicine is demanding in the sense that like when you're there you have to be there.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:04

Which is why I say it's it's you you can't be at two in the morning half asleep as a doctor. It doesn't work that way. You know what I mean? You you can be half asleep drafting, um, but you can't be half asleep practicing medicine. Um and when I'm when I'm when I'm in something, I'm in it. So when I was a doctor, I really was in it. So if somebody if if I was working full-time, I would have given full time of myself to medicine. Um, and then I would have never gotten a chance to study. Because you come the weekend, you're working some weekends, you're tired, you know, you've got weird hours. It just wouldn't have worked. Um so I was like, if I'm gonna do it, I have to go full-time. So I that's what I did.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:50

So what happens? You you apply to VIT to get in and then I applied to VIT, got in. Did they check if you made a mistake?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:56

No, they checked when I applied for my master's. They were like, no. Are you sure you want to do this?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:01

And then what's like what's the prerequisites at that state? They're still asking for matric. But anybody can get into law.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:06

So apparently they ask for your matric because it's easier to fake degrees than it is to fake your matrix certificate. Umalusi. They got some security on the website. Yeah, no, apparently Umalusi is, you know. Um so so yes, they've been around.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:20

That's all fake doctor uh there's a fake doctor in Pumalanga. I don't know if this is an urban legend or whatever, but there was this guy that like he was adoptive, and then one day when he had to produce for something, he produces matrix certificate. That's when they found out that this guy had become a re a doctor based on some, I don't know. Can you sound like yes, but yeah. So wait, so you so you're proud of Witsum, what do you do? You stop practicing.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:43

So I mean, while I was while I was practicing, I like I said, I did my diploma um in emergency medicine. I did the ACLSs, Puls, all of that. So that what's Puls? Pediatric. Yeah, pediatric advanced life support. Yeah. Um so that then allowed me to locum in private and to locum in government. So what I was doing is I was going to school Monday, Friday, and then um Monday to Friday, you would be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:10

Monday to Friday.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:11

Monday to Friday did school. Um, some afternoons I would assist in theatre, and then I would work weekends, and I'd work public holidays, and I would work school holidays.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:22

So that was like no life whatsoever for like three years. Because what I would I would work enough to pay for my monthly bills. Yes. And then um I would work like in the blocks, so in the school holidays, and I would pay off school fees from the school holiday work, um, mostly like in December. So like I would pay off whatever was needed to be paid off in the beginning of the year, um, whatever registration or whatever make first payment by X, and then I would pay the remainder come the end of the year. So yeah, no, for three years, zero life.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:02

Can I I mean very inquisitive question, but what what were your monthly bills like? Like what what were you So What were your responsibilities?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:09

So it was literally just my my what medical aid, um groceries, da da da. Yeah, the the usual things.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

No dependent, you didn't have any dependents or anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:20

No, my dependent is very fresh. Um yeah, which which you know is also another thing that I say to people because I mean I waited very long to, you know, have a family. And I was like, I I think God works how God works. You know, um everything happens when it's supposed to happen because I'd if I'd had a husband and, you know, children much earlier, I'm not sure you could give up a doctor's salary and the effect that has on your household, you know, to go be a lawyer with an uncertainty in the future. You know what I mean? So then I mean, if we're eating bread and eggs, we were eating bread and eggs.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:58

This is why I asked the question. I'm not just like, I am inquisitive, but I want to know like how do you it's difficult, right? And people need to know how it works.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:06

Like I said, my first salary as a lawyer was less than my first salary as a doctor. How was law school? As an intern, even. Um that I can believe. That's I I didn't. I I I went to law school single-minded focus. So I I don't know.

unknown 1:15:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:22

You know what I mean? I didn't go to my making friends for me was a fortunate happenstance. You know what I mean? I I wasn't there for any of that. Like I would get there for class. I would leave once class was done. I didn't really socialize. I would socialize if there was a lunch break between my classes. But short of that. And nobody knew there was a doctor in there. They found out. How do they find out? I don't remember. Maybe it's because I walk scrub sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:49

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:50

Because I would have to literally some like Batman vibes.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:53

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:01

So sometimes I would literally pop out, pop back in, or whatever the case may be.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:07

You've got to do some doctoring and maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:08

Yeah, just a little kick, you know. Listen and then come back and study. Or like have to go start a shift like on a Friday, like at five. Um so I'd have to just And everybody was much younger than you in in a lot younger. Uh a lot of people were younger. Some of them weren't. Um some people also had previous careers, but a lot of people are younger. So how long is that? Four years? So um Vitz had a postgrad program where if you have a postgraduate degree in something, you then do three years because you don't have to take any other subjects except for law subjects. So that's the stream that I went into. Maybe I should have done that. Because I did four years.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:47

And then once you qualify, what happens?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:49

Um, then I got articles.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:51

But who tells you you must now apply? When did you apply for articles?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:54

Second year.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:55

In second year of law.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:56

I mean, I was fortunate. My sister was already a lawyer.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:58

Oh, so she told you what to do. Yeah. And then when you applied for articles, did you have this funny story like I did where I applied for articles? Yeah. And then the HR lady calls me and she's like, I just want to make sure you haven't made a mistake. Because I can see here you're a dentist and you want to do articles. I was like, no, no. Still a break. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:16

No, so um I I where I did articles at Adams and Adams.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:21

Yeah, why there?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:22

I didn't want to be in Johannesburg.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:24

All right. Where's that?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:25

In Pretoria. Um I I I didn't want to be in the No, just because my sister was here. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I and I and I thought it was only fair to give her space to flourish. You know what I mean? People still look at us and are you? In my case, I am her sister. You know what I mean? So I didn't want I wanted her to be her own person. You know, I didn't want I didn't want to be on some, oh shit, your sister's here. Or you know, that kind of thing. So I went to You went far.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:54

I mean, you could have just moved around the road or something. Hello.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:56

Something is small.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:58

It was change of trade.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:00

Yeah, I took it to a different 50 kilometer radius.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:03

Not at the UK.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:06

So yeah, so Adams had a very cool recruiting program. They had a thing called um, what was it called? Something games. Recruitment games. And you go there for a weekend and they put you up at the hotel just opposite Adams. And it's very interactive. So it isn't just one interview with a partner or, you know, the team or whatever. You know, you play all sorts of games. Like there's like a partner speed dating where you know you'll sit with a partner, they'll ask you questions, you'll answer quickly. Um, all sorts of things. Um I was like, okay, this place is pretty cool. Um, the questions I got asked though wasn't that I got the usual, you know, articles, it's gonna be different, da-da-da-da-da. But I also got asked, are you gonna want to start a family soon? Because I was a lot older than they asked you that question. They did. Shhh shit. Boy, is no better. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:59

You would think. Um But it happens everywhere. It happens. And and shame, I mean, it's because I was a lot older than the 21-year-olds. You're contemporary.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:07

Which way, what's the inference of asking that question? You shouldn't ask that kind of I mean, that's like that's it's what what do you call it? Discrimination one-on-one? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:16

It kind of is, because if I was if I'd said yes, would that have jeopardized my education on the 100% would that so you know that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:25

Um and also Jack is making mental notes what not to ask potential employees now. Or myself if I have to go over and my plan to start a fan. Retire that question, please. Yeah. Please retire that question when you're recruiting.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:38

So so you know, like questions like that came up.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:42

Um What was your plan though? Like, we were you just gonna I just want to be a lawyer, or did you think patents or this or that or the other?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:49

So I what I I I actually wanted to do med mal.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:52

And I was very fortunate in that all my training has been largely med mal. Um So you knew from day one to be a med mal. And when they tried to like switch me up, I was like, I med mal medical metapractions.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:06

I was gonna actually tell you.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:07

Not like psychiatry, like when they tried to switch me up into different rotations, I was like, because Adams is obviously known for IP, um intellectual property.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:20

That's why I mentioned the patent thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:22

So um I was like, I'm not 21. I'm not wet behind the ears. I have an entire career behind me. I I don't need to still find myself. You know what I mean? So it's you just let me do this, which is what I came to do, and you know, let's all be happy. And they said yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:38

And they said yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:39

Good on them. That that's what they did to Dr. Mushlamanya. I had him on the show recently. They didn't even make him rotate. It's like, you know what we know what you're here for. So that's cool. They accommodated that.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:48

What do you do as a what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:51

So so there we On the dark side. Yeah, there I was on the dark side. Um I saw the light. Explain it plaintiff's work.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:58

Oh, okay. Yeah. Representing the patients. The patients. Um I get it, the dark side.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:02

But I think I think that I I still, dark as it is sometimes, which is why I left, but I I think it's important to have the right people on the dark side.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:13

Because And maybe it's not the dark side, maybe it's not the same. It isn't.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:16

It's it's you know what, when people are hard done by, they do deserve appropriate compensation for whatever it is that happened to them. Yeah. Number one. Number two, the reason why I think that the the reason why a part of me would entertain plaintiffs' work is because of the knock-on effect it has on doctors. Because I've seen way too many cases where um, you know, plaintiffs' attorneys have used a shotgun approach where just because you walked past the patient at some point.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:52

Breathe don't it.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:53

You know what I mean? You're coming into this matter. And I it's because they don't know who it is that they're supposed to be seeing that they don't want to find themselves, you know, three years into litigation only to be on some, ah, we actually got the wrong person. We should have gotten this person. And where somebody like me comes in is to say, but this guy actually did nothing. You know, this guy's the guy you're looking for. Um, you know, so don't bother with this particular person.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:20

Isn't this why like some defense lawyers, when they see that the patient is represented by people that know what they're doing, you actually get a bit of relief. Like, okay, you do. We're dealing with professionals.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:29

You do, because when I came onto the other side, you know what I mean? You actually you would get a summons and it was just like this makes sense. You know what I mean? This this makes sense, you know, the claim makes sense, the you know, the allegations make sense, the money that is being sued for also makes sense. And then you just like we can have a discussion early on, you know, you can have a discussion early on to be on something. Actually, this is where we are. You know, your case is this, our case is this, let's talk. Where are we? Whereas if I see uh I don't know experience, some random like a and the thing is you can tell, it doesn't even have to do with the name of the law firm, right? If I see a uh a a particulars that is for a complication that resulted in some bowel perforation or something, right? And this person had a colostomy for three months and they're claiming 10 million rand, I already know we're in trouble. I already know we don't know this person doesn't know what they actually are dealing with. Whereas if somebody comes to me with that kind of claim and says, I'm claiming 1.2, I'm like, you know, maybe we we're talking something here. Um and I think a lot of it might have happened because of things happening with RAF and people moving over into the medal space.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:56

Um They gotta start somewhere, right? And they figure it out as they go. So what was it like starting for you? Uh like leave now completely different world. Yeah. No longer in pajamas, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:06

Yeah, no, no, I've got to wear high heels. And I wore high heels like with dedication. You know what I mean? I was like, I wore takies for the last God knows how many years. I am not wearing flats at all. Um and then COVID hit. Um so so it it r it was it was really I enjoyed it. Um but I remember one night it was like two in the morning, and we had a trial the following day, and bundles needed to be prepared, and I was at the printer, and printers never work when you need them.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:37

No. Yeah. We had a sign at one of our printers to say, don't let this printer know you're in in a rush, because then it stops working.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:43

Literally. And this thing was just not working. And I just remember thinking to myself, my dad did not pay for six years of medical school for me to be fixing a printer.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:51

Yeah, yeah. Imagine.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:52

Like humble yourself. But but I think I think when I went into it, I actually understood, because when when when when my sister was a candidate, we all lived together, right? Um so like I just saw this poor girl suffer, and she would come back and she would look so tired and just finished. And I was like, but you're sitting at a desk the whole day. I'm the one walking around casualty, doing this, that, and the other thing. But she just looked so tired and she had like files for days and doing this and pagination and God knows what else, right? So I kind of saw like a foreshadowing of what was gonna come. Um, so I went in prepared, but I also knew that as a lawyer I didn't know anything. I might know something in medicine, but as a lawyer, I'm yeah, I'm as good as being 21. Yeah. You know what I mean? So that's the attitude that I went in with. So it sucked.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:48

How did they treat you? How do your colleagues treat you? Are they good to you? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:52

Yeah. I think I was very fortunate in that.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:54

I think um And you went there with an open mind. It's Pretoria. Oh, but your Africa answer is good also.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:02

Yeah, yeah, I can Africa's plot, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:03

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:04

Uh so it's not it wasn't a problem at all. Um yeah, so no, no, shame. Uh bless.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:10

We came across each other once in a matter.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:11

Yes, when I was at Adams. That was the first time we met.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:14

Yes, yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:15

Opposite sides.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:16

Yes, good side, other side. I was I don't even think I was in the You were. Wasn't I at ENS at that time? No, you were still at Norton Rose.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:23

Oh, okay, okay. Yeah. Alright. So not and then what happens after Adams?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:30

So I then I left Adams. Um and I came to Santon.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:39

No, no, she'd gone back to Cape Town at that point, so she was fine. Um Santon was uh It was it was time it was time to get into you know the shiny the shiny buildings of Santon. Um Weberwensel. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:53

And that's where you came to Maria.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:55

Yeah, yeah. And defense lawyer, no. Defense lawyer. Big shot defense lawyer, no less at Webowensel.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:02

Yeah, that's I mean Weber Wensel, yeah. Yeah, I know. It's like big. It's like peak law. Yeah. Like attorney. Top five. Yeah. Probably the top. Everybody wants to go there. Yeah. These law firms have their phases, right? They do everybody wants to go to one and then after a few years.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:20

Everyone wants to go somewhere else, etc. Yeah. But people move around. But where are they all based? This is why we're saying it's so tiny. Literally, then Sandy.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:29

That's where around the mall. Yeah, no, like where are they all? Where are they from? Literally around the mall. No, no, I mean like Webboinsel. Like uh these were partners sitting in the UK or where's the firm's usually No, so so so Webbers is local.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:42

Um, but it does have a a link. I'm not sure. I don't know if it's still ongoing to Linkletors in London. No, I see on the building. So they have a relationship with with Linklators. Um but it's not it's not a it's a local firm. But Weber's is the place everybody wants to be there now. And I get it. I get it.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

ENS. Were you not there? No. No, you were at Norton. I was at Norton Rose and then I went to ENS. Then I went back to Norton Rose. But when I worked people go back to Norton Rose. People love going back to Norton Rose. Go back home. But but when um when I w worked for Maria, she was at Norton Rose. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so what was it like now changing sides now becoming a defense switch?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:22

I think I'm better suited to defense law.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:24

Why? Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:25

Why? We appreciate your.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:32

I think my conviction is stronger to defend doctors.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:36

Okay. Because you are one, if you're part of the fraternity.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:39

Yeah, I think you know what I mean. I I I empathize with things going wrong. And that's why when things go wrong, even now, I'll be the first person to say, quit this, settle, let's call it a day and move on. Um just because if you're supposed to, you should. Don't drag it on. I mean, you've got you know what it's like.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:56

I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna also step in here because if if I think for the viewers, they're all not attorneys, I think. But the what was my question? It's not criminal, right? This is not criminal matters. This is so it's civil, so it goes to like arbitration and things like that. But if I can ask, you said earlier on that you you do feel that you know patients need to be represented and whatnot, and that's why you were on the dark side. But is that not the job of the HPCSA?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:21

No. The HPCSA, and I think people get this wrong quite often, um the HPCSA is the regulatory body for health professionals. Um because as a professional, you're allowed to be self-regulating, right? So in as much as they're an oversight body to make sure that doctors practice within the guidelines, with ethically, you know what I mean? But they're not there necessarily for the patients.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:55

Okay. So patients still get to have they have to get their own representation.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:59

So when if if a patient's matter goes to the HPCSA and it goes to inquiry, right, the the pro forma complainant who is an attorney within the HPCSA takes over that matter and is then the person that represents the complainant in the matter. But the fact remains is that what the HPCSP HPCSA, please, whenever you get somebody from I I would love to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:24

I'll simply change their name. Go on.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:26

Pardon? No, no, just just when you guys get somebody from the HPCSA, like please invite me.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:32

Do you have any context there?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:33

I mean, I know people.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:34

Yeah, yeah, well because I mean I would want to get some of the doctors from there, especially.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:38

Yeah, because it's what you're saying is what is happening practically. But what the HPCSA is supposed to be doing is they're supposed to be making sure that doctors practice right. They're supposed to be making sure that the profession isn't going into disrepute. Right? They're not supposed to be holding a stick and whipping the doctors. You know what I mean? You're still registered with them, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:01

So be careful what you're saying using.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:03

No, it's not joking. This is what I'm saying, I want to be here when somebody comes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:08

She's a lawyer. Yeah. That's disloyal. I'm still not getting the answer though. But the question is. My question is, is a patient who lays a complaint with the HPCSA against a doctor, do they have to get private legal.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:23

No, because the pro forma complainant is the person that represents the complainant. They don't need to get private representation. It's free for the patient.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:31

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:32

It's not free for the doctor. Why do you ask? But it's free for the patient. Why are you asking?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:36

Because earlier you said that, you know, you're working for the dark side. You said that it's you you enjoy uh so patients deserve. But the HPCSA doesn't give compensation.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:48

That's another thing that you must keep in mind. Um they they they just there, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:54

To uphold professional standards. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:56

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:57

And and lots of patients come to the HPCSA thinking that they're going to get compensation. HPCSA is going to order the doctor to pay a pay.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:05

The doctor might get ordered to pay a fine, but you know, not to the not to the patient.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:09

Where does that money go? To the council paysable.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:11

When you get the answer to that, please let me know. So on the council, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:14

And then what do they would do with the money? Well, they use it for for their processes. The internal they're not. Let's get that guy on it. From what I understand, they're not they're not using it to like for bonuses and things. No. I've asked this question. No. And that's the answer for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:28

They aren't using it for bonus. Yeah. Are you registered with that? That's what heck.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:34

You'll get an investigation here. Yeah. So you also you registered with the LPC and the HPC, I say. Yeah. At least we don't we don't have to pay as an non-practicing. Yes. We don't have to pay. Legal practice counsel. Yeah. We don't pay as non-practicing attorneys. No. But we still pay. You paid your three grand. Three grand.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:56

3,600 and what's it, 40 Rand.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:00

So but you don't longer get Weber Winslow. So how was what happened? Like were you do you get tired of defending the jobs?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:05

No. Not at all. Not at all. I actually really enjoyed my time at Webers. The fast-paced nature of it just it was just it was. Santin.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:20

You had a nice view.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:21

Oh fast.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:22

There's a Cape Town office there as well, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:24

Well there is a Cape Town office and the Cape Town office is right there at the foreshore. Yeah. So it's also perfect.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:30

And Maria is lovely, eh?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:31

Yeah, Maria, Sandra, they're all like fantastic. Yeah. Um no, I really enjoyed my time there. I the thing about the billable hour is if you're awake, you can bill. That's, you know, whether it be 2 p.m., 2 a.m., you know, it doesn't matter if you're awake, you can bill. In fact, you should be awake to bill. Um, and I I I wanted a family, you know, and because the the tricky thing is that you either do it at two points of your life, right? You either start your family when you're really young so that you can then get that out of the way and then climb the corporate ladder because it requires time and attention to actually do all that climbing. Um, or you do it once you're there and you're a partner, and you know, now you own your own time and you know, you can do whatever you want with your time. But because I started my career late, my legal career late, you know, I was in my late 30s, you know, fighting the billables, and I didn't want to find myself in a situation where, you know, I'm now in my 40s and I'm thinking, oh man, maybe I should, you know, start a family, and then now I've got all these medical things that are against me. Um so either the situation then became, you know, am I gonna am I gonna be in practice and have a career that's not going as fast as I would like it to, which would frustrate me because I would not be able to reach the billiables that I would need to be reaching to get to where I need to get to fast enough. Um because I I really enjoy, you know, I really enjoy being a wife and I really enjoy being a mom and you know, being able to spend time with my family. Um, it's really important to me. So that that was the the thinking then. But also it just also came back to the idea that, you know, sometimes you are only just helping one clinician. You know, who had we were helping only one patient, but now we're only helping one clinician. And so I just wanted to then grow a little bit more. Um so those two things they weighed heavily on me, and that's why um I left practice. But I I I have a lot of I I think I have a lot of practice still in me.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:01

You know what I mean? I I I whether or not I'll ever go back, I don't know. Um but I still I I still have a lot of practice because I enjoy working. You know what I mean? I actually enjoy putting time in. Um so maybe when the kids are grown.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:15

Where did you go next?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:16

Um I went to NatMed.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:18

Right. Yeah. Are you still there? No. Okay. What what were you doing at NatMed?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:22

Almost came to MPS.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:25

Um so what I was doing at Nat um NatMed was I was there like in-house um in hospital.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:32

What is NatMed?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:33

So it's a brokerage. Um a brokerage for an insurance brokerage for doctors, but um specifically specialists and even more specifically obvious. So yeah, so that's what I was doing. So um What are you up to now? So now I started my own, my own consultancy um in the medico-legal space. Um, but it's more risk um risk related, you know. So it's it's risk mitigation, risk identification for doctors, for facilities, and still doing some work for insurance um houses as well. Um dentists. No, I just haven't had dentists come to me. It's not that I, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:15

Can I have a job?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:16

Listen, I'm not hiring.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:18

I'll consult for free.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:19

Do you want to have a family?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:21

Yeah, I did the I did the latter of what you said. Establish a career and then establish it. So these doctors and and these facilities come to you and say to Nina, can you what what do they do?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:33

So what happens? What what I've realized, right, is that it's sort of like the money thing, right? I think doctors go into practice to just doctor. Everything else is noise, you know. And um I I don't know what it was like for you going into law, but for me, I struggled to law is very um what's the word? Like um, it was dense, like like not knowledge dense, but reading dense. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So you actually have to sit down and read. Whereas as a doctor, you were more hands-on, you were more in there. So I struggled with the with the reading part of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:15

And it's a lot of reading.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:17

It's a lot of reading.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:18

Always reading. Always. I remember when you used to study, I was like, oh, they're mentally. Not even studying, but when I was working, I would I would hardly ever check Twitter or anything because I've I've read so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:27

You you don't want to read anymore. Exactly, exactly. So, you know, like as doctors, I think there's a lot of stuff that doctors miss because they're so busy doctoring. You know what I mean? And so at the end of the day, doctors don't know what it is that they don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:43

And doctors aren't in a lot of ways empowered to protect themselves.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:50

Yes. A perfect example is yeah, he doesn't he's registered with the HPCSA, but he doesn't even know what they actually do.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:56

Exactly. Exactly. So now you get called into the HPCSA and you're shivering because you don't realize that you actually have rights and recourse even at the HPCSA. You know, I mean, or say, for example, when a doctor gets a complaint from a patient that is a complaint that should have or for you know, a complaint that should have gone to the HPCSA, but the complaint was actually directed to um the OHCS. You know what I mean? You can literally say I'm not answerable to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:23

Yeah. Yak has no idea what the OHCS is. I'm the oral hygiene counsel. I call it OSH. Oral hygiene. But how is it? It seems like a tough gig, uh, what you're doing now. Um how do you get yourself out there, your name out there?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:37

It's it's for me, so fortunately, um, you know, I think there there was a lot of exposure that I just had over time. Um, and it's also I i it's again, you know, it's a unique skill set that I have. So there has been a lot of word of mouth that happens. Um, I have a lot of doctor friends and ex-colleagues, et cetera, et cetera, that know what it is that I'm doing. And I it's just a translation, I guess, of law where people just will talk. It's also a risk.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:07

It's like you're doing your own business now, you're self-employed, right? I am. So that's a whole you've never done this before in your life. You've never been self-employed.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:14

The thing is, I think when I was low-coming, it was the same as being self-employed. Okay. Because if I didn't work, there was no money coming in.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:22

You know, so if I didn't feel like working, I must then, you know, but I feel like that's slightly different because at least when you're locuming, you know that there's work and you're gonna go there and there's definitely work.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:33

There's a lot of work to be done because um even if you take, for example, your facilities, right? Um the the relationship between the facilities and their clinicians. You take a look at um, say, the the confirmation of consent. You know what I mean? Sometimes you find that the nurses are then told, no, this is the consent, the patient must sign it. No, that's not the consent. The consent is what you, your doctor, and you as the patient discuss. You know, that so those kinds of things. I'm saying that the facilities won't be aware of that kind of thing. They won't be aware, right? So they won't know that they actually need you. And that's where I come in to be on some, this is where your shortfalls are. So there's a lot of presentation, there's a lot of pitching, there's a lot of, you know, actually going to these people and speaking to these people, to be on some, you know, this is this is what's happening. Um, you know, these are your these are your risks, and this is how we can mitigate these risks. Educate them. 100% to to show them what it is that they don't know. That's why I feel like it's different to locomie, because as a locomie rock. In that sense, yeah. Here you actually explain to them why you need why you I they need you. Yeah. And how's that? Because it's so much more Again, it's prevention. It's scary. Like we're not scared that you're just gonna be sitting and Mom and God's always loved me when it comes to my career. Right. Like I've always somehow And where do you get this?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:51

I mean, that's it's a risk. You're starting your own business.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:54

It is a risk, but you know what they say? If you build a better mousetrap than your neighbor, the world will beat a path to your door. Okay. So that's the idea. That's what I say. The idea is to build a better mousetrap. Um it is lit and and I think I I I I honestly it just every time, every time like doctors um, you know, are stuck in these things, you you get two kinds. You get the kind that is just like it's whatever, right? Then you get the kind that will literally consider stopping practice. You know what I mean? And I want to be there for that guy that is considering leaving practice because of one HPCSA baseless complaint. Yeah. Because it's so stressful. Like, because you're thinking, you know, my career, you don't realize that, you know, the complaint must go through a prelim phase. You write a response, you, you know, there's so many steps, you know, before it comes to finality. It might sometimes take forever, you know, for this thing to reach finality.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:57

And the scary thing is also it's not just the career that people contemplate ending. You know, some of them get suicidal.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:04

Literally. Yeah. Literally. Um it's and it's it's so sad because no one, at least not in my experience, goes into medicine to be on some today's the day that I'm gonna, you know, maim someone. Yeah. You know. Um, and the same when it comes to being sued, a lot of doctors don't realize what actually goes into, you know, having a successful um lawsuit from the plaintiff's perspective. You know, it's it's not that easy. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:32

I want to ask a question. Sure. Yeah, yeah. This is it's also like a it's it's it's also an opinion of mine that I've shared with other colleagues. I don't even know. Maybe Yash is gonna have to cut this segment out. We'll see what happens. But it's so unfortunate that there's certain private law firms. For example, I don't know, I won't mention names, but one sounds like Well, don't even do the sounds look, yeah. But they also want to do editing. I don't want to edit at all after this. Okay. They they they actively tout for patients to sue practitioners. Yeah. To the point where they actually waiver fees and stuff, and only on, you know, if they win the case, then they take it. It's a normal thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:15

So that's a normal thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:17

Yeah, but that's not my point. My point is they subject the practitioner to, as you were saying, there's such like suicidal thoughts and it's a very big psychological bearing on the practitioner. But the practitioner doesn't have any rights. They have to be on the defensive all the time. And it's so unfortunate. Okay, look, I'm not speaking on behalf of like all practitioners, but but someone But we've heard this many times from practitioners. Yeah, go on, but yeah. But someone that has been un maybe unfairly accused of doing something and it's proven incorrect, why does the practitioner not then have recourse to claim against the patient?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:58

So gosh. I mean if if if thou where do I begin with this answer? So when it comes to the touting, a lot of touting happens. A lot of underhanded uh dealings happen between law firms, hospitals, you know, uh nurses in some instances where files disappear, and next thing you know, the government's getting sued. There's a lot of weird things that can happen in the background. But the the bit about the fees, that's normal, because that's just taking a matter on risk, um, taking it on contingency that, you know, if you don't win, you then don't um you don't claim a fee. Yeah. And if you do win, you claim X amount or whatever's lesser. There's just a whole there's a whole law around that. So that's actually legal and that's allowed.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:50

Um But if you that was just a prelude to my question because I've got to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:55

No, so so it the the the counter suing the the the patient, but um, I don't think it that's not possible, right? In the sense that like you must at least that's not how I would do it, right? The way I would do it is that if you know that your case is good, you're gonna have to defend it because somebody sued you and you can't stop somebody from suing you, right? People have the right to access the courts and they will exercise that right however they see fit. So you can't stop somebody. Um, but if you actually have a good case, which is why I think it's important to empower and educate doctors so that they do have good cases, so that when this kind of stuff does happen, they can actually stand, you know, they they can stand on business, you know, and and be on some, no, you know, this and this and this and this was done. This this happened, etc. And that then your your case is as defensible, you know, as you can put down on paper. Can I ask you?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:56

I want to ask again, what would what would you let's just put you in that position, right? The patient sues you now. Yeah. You're very upset that this patient has sued you. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you want to sue them back for? All the time that I have vested defending myself, the psychological damage of me wanting to quit. Because I'm I'm very sensitive. If someone has to speak badly to me as a patient, I would even consider quitting then. They wouldn't even have to sue me. But it's to the extent where I I would actually want that person to know that it was not right like what you did. So And especially the attorneys that defend them that are touting them to sue unfairly.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:35

So that's where I was going with this, to say that I mean, for for what you're bringing up is a whole different thing. But the the second bit I mean, but where I was going with this is this if your case is strong and your case is defendable, right? Um, I think that you can then put the attorneys on risk to say, I have told you that your client has no case. And if you proceed beyond this point, this is what's going to happen. We're going to want the legal costs from you. You know, and if the case is really that frivolous, you're going to want the legal costs directly from the attorney. Because usually the the patients are people of straw, so to speak. You know, they're people who does that mean. They they're people who don't have the money to pay whatever it is that you would be suing for. So you could come, and it's still gonna cost you to sue them, by the way. It's not that your diff your your suing is gonna be free. You know, and sometimes and sometimes it's gonna have to come out of your pocket because your insurance is not gonna be there to back you to then go and institute legal action against somebody else. So if you know your case is good, what I would do is just then go have the attorneys tell the other attorneys that beyond this point, anything that gets incurred will be for your pocket should the judge find in our favor.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:52

And if they don't have a case and they know they don't have a case, that I feel like that should scare them off enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:56

Nina, I want to ask you something because you've had you've been on both sides, right? Now, I I know a lot of clinicians, because I deal with and I've always been on the defense side when it comes to healthcare workers. A lot of clinicians think that patients just want to sue because they want to make their lives diffic the the doctor's life difficult or they want they want money, you know, because they're greedy or whatever. There's a there's there's that perception sometimes. In your experience, is that actually what what happens? Like do patients just want to sue for because they want money or are you asking for the majority of the time? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:32

No. Some some like often no. Um because I mean, just think about it, Yesh. You you go into hospital, you want to go, um, you know, you're going in, you've had a normal pregnancy, you are expecting to have a normal baby, right? Lo and behold, something happens. Um, and then this child now comes out with cerebral palsy. Right. Now You are now faced with a life where your kid is never going to grow up. They're never going to go to school. Um, at least not mainstream, you know. Um, you're gonna they need operations for their hips, they need to get their teeth taken out. There's so much you your house might not be suitable. There's so much that actually goes into it. We live in a society that I think is very forgiving, in quotations, because a lot of people will be on some, I guess it's just my, this is my lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:32

And then they won't do anything about it. But often people will try cope, and then they will realize that I I can't. I actually, my means aren't enough, you know, and then they will have heard something somewhere, and then they will, you know, institute action.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:51

Um They're looking for a fair outcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:53

They're looking for a fair outcome. And then the lawyers come in and, you know, often skew the situation. You know? Um there's that. The second thing that I've come across a lot is that patients just want answers. Patients want answers, patient wants patients want accountability. You know what I mean? The the money can be a secondary thing, but people actually want to know um how did I end up with, you know, a colostomy when I went in for a hysterectomy. You know, I I because no one the the thing about it is that I think this is my theory, I think the reason specialists get sued is because they don't have the time to build relationships with their patients. I've hardly ever come across a GP getting sued. GP will sit with you, will explain to even GPs that are delivering babies. You know what I mean? They will sit with you, they will explain, you've delivered all five of their kids, you know, they know your grandmother, they've known you since you were four. They have a relationship. A specialist comes in and out of your life as and when you need them. So, and they also just I don't know what gets lost in registration when it comes to, you know, human touch, but something happens there, you know, because they also just don't bedside manner can sometimes be lacking. Some are great, right? But sometimes that bedside manner and relationship human to human can be lacking. So they they are more exposed to um um being sued. And and perhaps it's just not being able to explain things to patients in a way that they will understand.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:35

And also the system kind of pushes them in that direction, right? Because I I mean I had him up in private. I saw my surgeon for like a few seconds, like and then he was like he was gone for another to another patient.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:46

The system just like enables this lack of connection, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:52:49

100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:50

But going back to the point that we we're talking to yak about is that I feel like in your experience, and it's also my experience, that patients are not just suing because they they want money or they want to irritate you, you know? Yeah, no, no. But my my point was if a case is disproved beyond reasonable doubt, right? Why is it that the doctor is not compensated for the amount of stress and trauma and how do you quantify that? Well, you guys quantify it. Yeah, exactly. You can. It's three million. How do you quantify the stress you've gone through be defending a case? And you're not me. That's the attorney's responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:26

Well, you'd have to show that you actually went through a psychological break, so they call it, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:30

The fact that Or defamation, for example.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:32

Oh, defamation you can do easy. You know what I mean? I mean, that's a whole different area of law that's not that's not midmail. But I it's it wouldn't be some people would need to sue for defamation, but you're starting something from the beginning. It's not linked to that initial case.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:48

So that what you're saying is anybody that gets sued and proves that they were not they were not in the wrong must then be able to counter-sue and say you shouldn't have exercised your right, not law to sue me. Not shouldn't have, but they should have used a more of a precautionary measure to gather the information. Exactly. And that's where they're torting. Is mediation gonna happen?

SPEAKER_00 1:54:10

Well, I mean, here in in Ghao Deng you have to mediate before you get into court, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:54:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:14

Um so there there is room for mediation, but people are very circumspect when it comes to mediation because now you say too much or you say too little or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:26

You don't trust the mediator or the system.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:27

Yeah, or you don't I mean you also can't I mean who's a mediator? You you can you can I mean I did mediation, so you know what I mean. You can have mediators left, right, and center, but the the the question becomes how much you're going to disclose at mediation to try to get an outcome, you know, that won't jeopardize your case should mediation fail and you still have to go to court anyway. You know, that's the tricky balance that needs to be needs to be struck.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:55

So dispute resolution is difficult. It is. And that's why there's specialists in it. Yeah. But I mean, I wouldn't, if I had to like counter sue someone sued me, I wouldn't sue them for money. I'd be like, right, if you lose, if I sue you successfully, you're gonna have to pay like a charity of my choosing or like a still money or like a dolphin. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:14

Even if it goes to lesson. For SPCSA. I think the the thing about it, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:55:21

No, no, not not HPCSA, SPC.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:23

No, SPCSA, yeah, my bad. Yes, yeah. Um the dog. The thing about it is that um I I honestly think that you know, litigation is a case of elephants fighting in the grass suffering. Because the lawyers will be at each other. They'll be discussing legalese, and the patient half the time doesn't know what is plotting. They're just waiting for the payday. You know what I mean? The doctor also doesn't know what is plotting, they're just stressed, you know, waiting for this outcome. Am I going to get called to court? Am I, you know, do I have to now sit in court for the duration of this trial and now I can't see patients, which means I'm not getting money in, or, you know, you name it. Um and if if if the lawyers would just uh just really be forthcoming to each other and beyond some you have a case, you don't have a case, call it a day. And and I think that's where problems start. I think I and I say this often, that I think it's the problem with medicine is lawyers. Because the lawyers are coming in and they're just stirring the pot and you know I mean I I honestly believe that.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:36

I I genuinely think like your guys' industry probably needs to be more regulated as much as we are. We were talking about touting the other day in uh like our family group. If the if medical practitioners are subject to regulations with touting, why isn't the the law fraternity? Why is it that a firm can come and say, have has your doctor or dentist done something negligent? Are you not aware? Come to us, we'll represent you only if you win, then we will. I think that's advertising. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:08

But I love the the elephant and grass and um, you know, proverb or whatever you call it. Because at the end of the day, the lawyers are fighting, the patient's not getting the answers that they they wanted anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:21

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:21

And they fe they think that if they win in, you know, some something in court, it's gonna make life better, but it actually doesn't, right? It doesn't. And nobody really wins besides the lawyers.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:32

So there must be well, I guess up until the claim is valid and the doctor was negligent, and then there's action taken against the doctor. So he's not practicing. Well, the doctor will pay. I mean, the doctor's insured or whatever will pay. Yeah. And then the patient gets money and Oh, we're talking not this is a not criminal now. It's never criminal, yeah. Yeah. It's almost never criminal. Well, it's hardly. These are all civil matters we're talking about, where the patient is suing for money.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:56

Hard, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:57

But they just wanted answers.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:58

If they're not often enough, they they really just want answers.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:02

If the doctor met with the patient like right at the beginning, before him feeling the need to involve an attorney. And the doctor could just have like a protected discussion and open and honest. Is that what your guys' opinion is? Like, how can you guys represent doctors and dentists? What's the best way to like mitigate those factors from a doctor being sued? Oh, it boils down to one of communication.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:26

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. But the the I think the the problem is that once patients are aggrieved and they actually complain, I think that the the doctor is sort of caught off guard.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:41

Backfoot, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:42

And is is scared of what they can or can't say because they don't know is this gonna get me into more trouble or you know, is this gonna get me out of trouble? Does my insurance allow me to speak? Does my insurance not allow me to speak? There's a lot of, you know, uh fear. And and I think um because the the society has become so much more litigious that fear is very palpable. You know what I mean? Um slightest complaint, slightest complication. Not every complication is negligent. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of patients don't realize that and a lot of lawyers don't realize that.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:19

You know, in some countries, like there's a law which protects an apology. Yeah. Yeah. Where like if you've if you've messed up as a clinician and you go and say sorry. It's admission of guilt. No, it's not. I mean, there's some laws that protect Yeah. Oh, meaning if you say sorry, that's fine. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:36

It's like no, if you say sorry, it's not you're not going to be presumed to have done have done something wrong.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:41

Oh, or admitted liability. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:43

Whereas somebody might be on some, oh, but you said sorry. Why did you say sorry? Does that mean that you're actually you know in the wrong?

SPEAKER_01 1:59:51

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:52

So I I really look, I think communication is key. Um, I think that it really first of all, I think doctors actually do need to practice safely. I think um there has never been a time to be a cowboy, and I don't think you should start now. You know what I mean? I do think that people actually need to speak to their patients and not you're a doctor, you're not a vet. You know what I mean? You are dealing with a human being at the end of it. So you actually need to speak to them. You need to speak to them um in a way that respects and honors them as a patient, first and foremost. You know what I mean? And when something has gone wrong, you know, say something happens interoperatively, you need to actually go out and say to that person, listen, this is what happened. You know, it's your duty to do that. Yeah. Um, uh it can't just be a case of, you know, you brushing it off um and then, you know, go call your insurer and explain to them. No, you actually need to speak to the pace to to the person. Um but I mean I I really don't think doctors speak to the to I went in, I saw my anethetist at the door of theater.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:05

Yeah, it's become the norm. That that's what I'm saying. The system it conspires against uh the the people who work in the system also.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:12

A hundred and the patients. Because and and y I'm given a form and I'm just they're like sign, sign, sign, sign, sign. I'm like, eh, woo. Scratch this, scratch that, scratch this, you know?

SPEAKER_02 2:01:23

But I'll can I give you my opinion. Sure. Working like both parts of the system. I it's it's it's I don't think it's the doctor's fault. Look, it is, because it's their choice at the end of the day. But there's a lot of things that are being dictated to by like third party providers. Give an example. No, I can't. I don't then you'll have to do more editing. But there's I mean, if someone's time is a direct translation into how much of money they're making and what they are possibly entertaining. Talking about perverse incentives, yeah. Yes. And it comes from like third party providers, then this is where now it becomes a situation where the doctor, NICIDES, is just gonna rock up there because he's got a whole ward of patients to go pre-consult, and then you're only seeing your NISA for like 10 minutes. But yeah, this is exactly what I'm saying. It's the system. The system needs to be tweaked. Exactly. But it's you can't only point fingers at the doctor and say that uh And you can't generalize. And like patients aren't out there to make your life difficult. They feel like they've been wronged, they just want answers or they want to be treated fairly in most cases. And it's up to us in between to make sure that the dispute is resolved in as amicable, amicable a way as possible. 100%. Because nobody wants to ever go get treated by a clinician and and have an adverse outcome that they want to be fighting over for years. Nobody no, no, because some some matters.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:46

I was about to say you guys. Yeah, no, they are not us. Not us, yeah. But it's it's you know, I think I do agree that the system needs to be tweaked. Um but I think that at the end of the day, right, until such tweaking happens, the doctors need to I suppose go back to the core of what I think it is that they are doing and what they're doing is treating patients, which comes with interacting with patients. I I would, you know, I uh I would get to like checkers or pick and pay or whatever, and like I would have like a miserable tailor and I'd be on some ASCII CSS, no, you know what I mean? I'm a doctor and I'm up at two in the morning, and you wouldn't want a sour-faced doctor at two in the morning. And that's my job, right? That's what I do and I go to work. Therefore, when you are here at two in the afternoon, smile. You know what I mean? So until such time that these tweaks are done, as doctors, doctors need to do what it is that they need to do, which is treat patients and treat patients well with dignity, respect, and everything else. Um and whether or not if if what we're saying is that the time doesn't allow because you need to try squeezing as many patients into your 15-minute consultations while you're charging X amount so that you can actually go home with some money after you've paid your million rands worth of insurance, you know what I mean? Then we need to consider where the fat can be cut in the sense that again it goes back to the lawyer. In the sense that do we then need to think about regulating what people can sue for and the amounts that can be sued for so that the insurance premiums don't need to be as high as they are, so that in turn the doctors don't need to be charging X amounts of money so that the patients can afford health care, so that you can actually spend more time with your patients. Is that where we need to, you know, think about going? You know? Um, or do we just I I don't think it's fair to be on some just work longer hours, less pay. I don't think that's fair because medicine is hard. Right? I I I I think that people should be compensated appropriately. And living is costly, man. Um so I think we need to think about what it is that we want the system to do because those in the insurance premiums we pay are just paying legal costs, you know. Um and and compensation amounts that are unregulated. A CP claim now can go for 20-some odd million Rand.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:40

You know? Plus, yeah. Plus.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:42

Yeah. And and that's that it's it's it's who has that kind of money in their back pocket as a practicing clinician? You know.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:51

Um so Or as a parent, you know what I mean? That needs that money for to take care of the Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:59

But I mean the bit I'd say now would have to be editors out, so maybe we'll switch off the cameras.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:05

Um so what do you do for fun? I mean, what what what's next? Uh you is this consulting then going well? How's it going?

SPEAKER_00 2:06:11

Yeah, no, so it's going well. Um it is going well. I I think eventually um I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna m move into a different direction, still in the medical legal space. Um, but um I it's just gonna get bigger and better. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:30

Um excited. You've got a excited smile on your face today. Yes, it's um I don't even know, but it like sounds like podcasting is coming up.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:39

So so yes. Um so podcasting has happened. Yeah, I saw the first episode. Um I saw the what is it, the first episode? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So podcasting has happened. Um genuine. So um yeah, you guys must also come there. And and you know, what do you what is it about?

SPEAKER_01 2:06:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:57

So mine is more literally just to inform doctors. So it's more educational, you know what I mean? Um, and you know, I listen to a lot of podcasts simply because sometimes you're doing something and listening. You know, you you're listening while you're driving, you're listening while you're cooking, or whatever the case may be. But a lot of information I get, I get from podcasts from YouTube, you know, that kind of thing. I started creating because of podcasts, but anyway, go on. You know what I'm saying? Like literally, we get so much audio information and passively so. And so I was like, you know, doctors are busy people. You know what I mean? You don't necessarily have the time to read something, you don't necessarily have the time to um go to a uh webinar or, you know, conferences are big things, you go every now and again. Um, so to get information out there, because I genuinely feel that doctors do need to get more information in just so that they can feel better prepared for certain eventualities. So that's what the podcast is about. The first episode I did was just about the top five tips about getting into 2026. So, you know, making sure your insurance is up to par, making sure that, you know, you know, those kinds of things that you've reported everything to date in the previous insurance year that you actually know what your policy wordings is. You know, because it kind of complements the consulting thing, right? 100%. It kind of helps. What is it called? It's called the Legal Clinic. The Legal Clinic, and where is it on? YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts. How did you figure out how to do this stuff? Like, because it's YouTube.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:28

Teach yourself on YouTube, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:08:29

Literally. Um, taught myself on YouTube. And you know what, I it literally just um confirmed what I was thinking that we can learn so much um from you know these platforms. We didn't have these platforms before, but we have them now. So there's actually no reason why we shouldn't use them um as best we can. And anybody can do it, right? Just do it. Everybody can do it. Just do it.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:52

I mean, I that's when that's what caused me to like that's what ignited me or insparked the invite from me to you. When I saw your episode, I'm like, hey, you become a podcaster now, why don't you come on ours?

SPEAKER_03 2:09:02

Yeah, it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:03

You know, I feel like we must all just collaborate. Yeah, collaborate and bring one another up, you know?

SPEAKER_00 2:09:08

There's so much uh cake to be sliced up and shared. You know what I mean? There's there's more than enough. And if not, just bake your own. You know, it's easy to do.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:16

You can actually do it with just a little bit of effort and a little bit of money because you've got to pay those ongoing Buzzsprout and all that stuff. You really do? Do you use Buzz Sprout? What do you use?

SPEAKER_00 2:09:24

No, so um what's it? Uh Final Cut Pro is what I use.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:28

No, I mean like to host it on Spotify and Oh no, Spotify for creators. Okay, sure. You do it differently. I I use a thing called Buzz Sprout, and it pushes to Apple Podcasts and So you can go directly to Podcast, um, you can go directly to Spotify, you can go directly to Apple.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:43

It's free. Yeah. I'm paying for what then?

SPEAKER_02 2:09:46

Yeah. And then YouTube can really uh get you as a professional. Consultant. Yeah. And and uh like advertising and all that stuff, do you do any of it?

SPEAKER_00 2:09:55

So just like on Insta I've been so bad about it though. I have been so bad. Just because, you know, like I've I've I've got a lot of work coming in, so it's kind of like, oh, let me do the work, let me do the work, and then I get you. Um but I need to be more intentional about actually sitting down, setting a day aside to do it.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:15

But that's a good problem to have. I mean, you you've got the point of advertising is to get the work, and if you've got a lot of work, then it's a great problem to have.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:21

I'm very grateful for that problem. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:24

I hope it just grows and um yeah, we'll share, we'll put a link to your podcast. And thank you. Do you have a website for your like? I do, I do.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:31

So it's lawdoc.co.za.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:33

Lawdoc.co.co.za, yeah. So what do you do for fun? You know, like we're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:37

What do I do for fun? My God.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:39

Are you married to a doctor?

SPEAKER_00 2:10:40

No. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:41

A lawyer.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:42

No.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:42

Well done. Neither.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:45

No, so he's a CEO at MTN. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:48

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:48

Yeah, one of one of the MTN um subsidiaries for data monetization.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:53

All right.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:53

So that's what he does. But he used to be a consultant in a previous life at Mackenzie.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:57

Yeah. Can you ask him like my daughter doesn't seem to be repression everyone?

SPEAKER_00 2:11:01

Can I tell you when I told my mom that he works at MTN, she was asked, I'm like, mama. Free at time. He's at group. He does not even know how these things work. You know, like I'm like, he does not know how any of these things work. So it's just like, oh, okay. No, that was a joke.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:17

At least you never run out of dots out of that.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:19

No, so our sick, can I tell you our signal at the house is atrocious, but the MTN signal works. I was gonna ask you.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:26

The Vodacom signal is awful.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:28

But the MTN signal, like it's Are you with Vodocom minds? I'm with Vodocom, of course.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:32

But it really depends. Are you with Vodacom?

SPEAKER_00 2:11:34

I'm with Vodocom.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:35

I never accept that in my house. Vodacom is like the Samsung of I love I'm I've and and I've got to be. I've moved from I've moved to MTN once, and then I there was no signal in the basement of work. And how I know this is because when I was doing articles, yeah. I was so embarrassed to make phone calls in front of people.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:54

And you were going downstairs.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:55

Because remember, I I left for dentistry and I went to do articles, right? And as a dentist, You don't phone people and have conversation. I was so awkward. I used to go sit in my car and like phone like you know. People, whoever.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:08

Yeah. And that's how you found out that you're not going to be able to do it. Yeah. I was so self-conscious of it. But it's such a it's such an interesting thing, because I completely know what you're talking about. Even when it comes to like writing stuff, like emails and letters. Nobody teaches you. Nobody teaches you that. And like I remember um, you know, it it was a case of learning how to write in full sentences.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:30

Not even that. Like you know, the kindly see, like we don't we just want to write, please, whatever, do it.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:36

Do it do it. Like there was no floweriness. You know what I mean? Exactly. So that was that's definitely a learned skill. Big, big learning curve for me. And even just how to like speak to people. Because to this day, like if if I want to ask you for something, I'm gonna be on some, hi Yesh. Um, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Yeah. And then I'll some how I'm how are you? You know what I mean? Because you just want to get the business out. Yes you know what I mean? Because you it's time sensitive.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:07

Although that, how are you thinking? Like when somebody messages me on Teams and says, Hey Yesh, how are you doing? I'm like, uh Literally, just ask me what you want. The first message should just be, can you please save me a example?

SPEAKER_00 2:13:17

Um the exact same way.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:19

And then the end. By the way, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 2:13:21

I hope you're well. Don't even ask me how I am because you don't really want to know, do you? So just say what it is that you need and let's let's get over none of it. But that was that was a huge um learning curve. Like, oh, it was very frustrating in the beginning. Yeah, exactly. It was super frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:39

I hated it. I hated make having to make phone calls. I wasn't used to it. Yak, you you see, you all know because you've never had to do this, right? Make phone calls. No, I mean like professional phone calls. Like yeah. Yak is always bossing people around. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:51

It's uh and and the other thing about it is like the hierarchy in like the the the medical field as opposed to the legal field. The legal field is so very, it's weird. Yeah. You know what I mean? Whereas in in medicine, you know, you know that you have an intern, your comserve, your MO consultant all the way, right? And the work gets different as you go up. You know, it gets more complex. As a lawyer, you're doing the same thing on day one as you're doing on day 3,000. Your 10,000 hours just buys you a quicker route to that final outcome. But you're doing the exact same work on day one that you're doing 10,000 hours later.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:36

Except delegating more.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:37

It doesn't get like it doesn't, it doesn't Once you make partner, it's not like, oh, suddenly you just you don't draft something just because you've made partner. Whereas if you're a doctor when you're day one, you know, you can't, I don't know, you can't take out an appendix. Yeah. You know what I mean? Three years later you can take out an appendix.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:53

But wait, I have a question for you guys. Am I allowed to be a lawyer? No. Or wait, if if I if I get sued for anything, right? Whether it's criminal or not. Yeah. I can be my lawyer. I can represent myself if I want. Whether you should But you know there's a saying, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:15:12

Yeah, doctors and lawyers a doctor who treats himself as a patient is an idiot of a patient.

unknown 2:15:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:17

And I think a lawyer who represents themselves. Because it feels like fool for a client.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:21

Society is just going around doing whatever they're supposed to do, like or just doing their things. It's only lawyers who knows, who know what you're actually not supposed to do.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:30

Yeah, maybe with a bit of Chat GPT, everybody can come and know something.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:33

Claude, Claude. Yeah. Yeah. So technically speaking, we all can be lawyers.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:37

Look, I honestly believe no one was born anything.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:40

You know, you become. It's all man-made. Yeah. Yeah. Except like medicine's not everybody can be a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:46

No, I better. But it's not allowed to be taught. No, no, but what I'm saying is just that no one is born anything. Yeah, exactly. You have to become whatever you want to do.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:56

No, you could. Like I cannot go and say, I'm gonna go take out an appendix, I'll get sued. But Or you'll kill someone. But I can come and do like your job. No, you can't you can't represent other people. No, not other people are not.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:07

No, so so yeah, so you could represent yourself, even though the judges will tell you, are you sure?

SPEAKER_02 2:16:13

Are you sure? Am I allowed to take out my own appendix?

SPEAKER_00 2:16:16

No. That's ill advised. I mean, whether it's legal. I don't think it's uh unlawful to like. It isn't unlawful to try to take out your own appendix, but Probably not. Let's think about how you do that. Like I know people that extract their own teeth and stuff. Yeah, but th this isn't like you're amputating an arm.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:36

Or a finger.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:37

Or a finger.

unknown 2:16:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:38

But yours were auto-amputated, so you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:41

No, it's physically go in for an amputation.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:43

Oh, see. But it's not like you couldn't you you you would have an easier time sitting with a spanner doing this than trying to dig out your appendix awake.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:55

Because that's what you would have to be to dig out your own appendix, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:16:58

Don't do your sidetracking. Don't let Yak sidetrack us with stupid questions. I mean, did we get an answer to the what do you do for fun day?

SPEAKER_00 2:17:04

Oh, I ran around my s I ran after my son. Um he is a very busy little person, but before he came around, um I I enjoy I enjoy eating out. I enjoy going to the gym. I really enjoy going to the gym. Um, what else? Um, I just I enjoy I I have a very close circle of friends. Like I have very few friends. Um and just spending time with people. I enjoy that. At least those kind of people I enjoy spending time with my family. Um I've become a homebody, you know, of late. I'm not so much out there. By homebody, I don't mean literally sitting at home, but just more chilled. You don't have to go out. Yeah, no, I don't know. Oh, but like a music festival. You're getting old. Oh, you like music? Or what music? I cannot like. Music festival, concerts. So you've got the energy for all that. Listen, I do like what's your type of music, genre? So old school RB. Okay. I don't know anything that was released, I think, after 2010 to 10. Old school RB. Did they listen to that in Limpopo? Listen, we grew up writing those, like, you know, in a in a music book. You underestimate us.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:14

Tony Braxton and all of it.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:16

And I was there when she came to South Africa. I love Tony. So yeah, but I think, I mean, I think six weeks after having my son, I went to a music festival. My mom was just like, oh, you nuts. I was like, nope. Yeah. I'm going.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:29

Um you got energy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:31

No, I I really I I love music. So like just the you know, being able to be Me too, but I don't want to go to festivals.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:38

Like, I'm not Oh really? You're missing out. I don't have the Yeah, I love it. No, yeah, goes and records at festivals like commercially. Oh wow. What were who were you recording with recently? Anjina Deep. Oh, and Ben Bowmer and that's why when you said music.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:53

What kind of music is what kind of music festival is that's more like EDM like soft rock type of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:01

Um yeah, no, an Amstel. I shot at Amstel. Okay. Yeah, with Paul Tusi and she's a DJ and Yak is a celebrity, you know. I mean, I'm finding out.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:10

No, I saw the hair.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:10

The hair is like super cool. The hair is a celebrity on its own. Yeah, no, the hair is like we must start an Instagram page. No, honestly, the hair. You're like a trolled hard, eh? No, but your hair is like really cool. Like it's don't don't encourage him, please. You're saying that the hair is cool. Let's face it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:25

The hair is cool. Like, let's leave it at that. The hair is cool. He has my stamp of approval.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:31

It is cool. You're based in the trolls. Don't listen to the lawyers. Um If your son comes to you one day later on in life and says, Mom, I want to be a doctor, do you have any advice for me?

SPEAKER_00 2:19:45

Yeah, take a gap year. And then come back after a gap year. And if you still want to be a doctor, for sure, go for it. Go for it. But I'm not paying for a year's first year straight aftermatric. Trial and error. Uh unless of course he's because you get some people who've always known what they want to do. You know what I mean? Um, but you know, as a parent, you know your kids, so if you can see Guray, this one, you know, um, isn't sure about them, then no, just go go travel.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:16

Well, at least the privilege is is is it's getting passed on generation to generate.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:20

Because a gap year is a privileged thing. Listen, my parents are just like, What? No, not a chance, you know, because my friends are doing gap years and then they're gonna study sports science and IT and But a gap year doesn't necessarily mean you're doing nothing.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:34

You can go get a job as being. A hundred percent. You know what I mean? Then that's not privileged.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:38

But so but I mean i it kind of is because the not having a gap year means you enter the workforce early uh on time, so to speak. You know, so the fact that you can delay that is in and of itself a bit of a privilege. So definitely you know, Nina, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:58

It's been fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:59

It's been fantastic. Yes, it's like a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:03

Yeah, it's like saying thank you, Your Highness.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:06

Stop it. Thank you, Princess.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:08

Much appreciated.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:10

Oh, with the arm and everything. You guys are so silly. You guys are silly. Oh my god.