SPEAKER_03 0:00

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unknown 0:21

Dr.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Reggie Reddy. Welcome. Thank you very much, uh Yashin and Jakshien. Why and why?

SPEAKER_03 0:30

How long have you been in practice, Doc?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

35 years. I've finished practice, right? It's almost like a lifetime. 35 years is two years shy of my lifetime.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

So you started practicing when I was two years old.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Yeah. You know, and uh, I mean in the 1990s you know. You know, started uh so where did it all start, Doc? Where are you from? So I'm originally from uh from Durban, but uh but I grew up in interesting place. I grew up in a farm outside uh Transclough. And the interesting story is that um Transclough, what's it? Uh Cranscloof is uh outside Pinetown. It's uh what we call uh it's about uh 10 kilometers outside outside Claremont. Is that like near Asagai now? Uh no, uh it's uh Pinetown Claremont area. Uh that's very uh you go you got you got Durban, Westville, Pinetown, then you got uh Claremont, and now it's called Quaddebeca. Okay. Uh right, so that's the area that we grew up in. And so we had uh, you know, thousand acres of farm. Yeah, you know, the the family. What type of farm? So growing uh ginger and uh and me and bananas and tomatoes, and so on the plot that we lived on was uh five acres. And people took off the grid. We were off the grid those days, and we had our own generators, own water supply, own sanitation system, and everything that we lived was off the off the land. We wanted foods off the tree, right? And milk was from the cows, right? So the age of six years old.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

So wait, you come from is it sounds like you come from well off family.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

What did your parents do? Uh my grandfather came in 1890. Right. From uh 1890 from uh on the ship. And my and my grandfather came and uh to to work on the sugarcane field, and he came at the age of 13 years old. And but because he's so young, so they put him as a cook. Uh and this had happened. And then later on that they uh went into farming, you know, they were given off like small portions of farming. So basically that's how they started. They started basically off of nothing and into something that later on uh that they came into uh farming. Do you know who he cooked for? Uh no, I I don't really know cook, but cooked for a British family. Uh for a white family where he's in part as a cook and this sort of thing. So he came with his mother and didn't come, didn't come, didn't come with his father. And then his his his mother um uh got sick and went back to India. And uh so that he was he was here and then he got he got married to uh to to to to my granny in South Africa. So so so she she was born here, I think, you know, in uh in I think 18 uh ninety-nine or something like that. She was born in in South Africa. So so so we so we grew up in this farm here with everything that living almost natural. At the age of six years, I had nothing from the can, nothing from a packet, uh, nothing from a bottle, anything like that. You wanted ice cream, the grandfather used to make fresh ice cream every Sunday. But it sounds like that was a necessity because it couldn't have been refrigerated. No, no, no. There was no fruit, no, no, there was no refrigerator with cold stove, the baked uh scones and custard cakes, everything in the in the cold stoves. Everything was everything was cold stove. Yeah, but uh but unfortunately, you know, uh the group areas took everything away. But wait, wait, let's we'll get there. But your parents, what did they do? Uh so my so so my so my dad was assessed to college. Uh right, and he had to leave uh school at age of 10 and 7 uh because my grandfather didn't have anybody to help him. And they were uh there were 11 children in the family. Wow. Yeah so those days you do it was big, huge families. Cricket teams. Yeah, yeah, almost cricket teams. Actually, actually, we had a cricket pitch where we lived.

unknown 4:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Sounds like a lot of privilege. That explains it. Well, that explains why they had the 11 kids. They needed a team.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Yeah, they were passionate about cricket and and football and all the spots, but cricket was a big thing.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

So he left school standard seven and then Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

He left school standard seven and then he then he went and helped it down on the farm. And they were living in a place called Roosevant first. Uh Rusfantine was outside Westfall.

SPEAKER_04 4:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Uh, right, so so so this is where so they lived living on a half acre acre property. Uh property that that was given. They did with them. The Britishes went to exiting and they gave people uh properties and they uh then they had to barter, then they had to sort of for work later than to give them another cotton acre, another half acre. So that that's how that's how it was in the early days.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

But Doc, just to go back one second, but for for as long as I know you, I think you haven't been a South African supporter. Today, uh South Africa plays India and the cricket.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yeah. Are you not conflicted of who to support? No, no, I know I love I love South Africa. I love the national spirit of the country. And but I all but I also love India, you know. I have a great affinity in India because I studied in India and India's given uh, you know, historically I think that India has given birth to an Indian population in South Africa. And I think India's uh affinity to South Africa is great. And I think uh I love uh India per se. And I just I'm conflicted. I love both teams to win.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Okay, so we would so you are technically your second generation South African, right? Because your your dad would have been first gen.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Uh no, my grandfather, then my dad. Your grandfather came on the ship. Yeah, he came from India.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Yeah, so since your dad was born here. So he was first generation. That's first generation. Okay, yeah, yeah. Then you. Second gen. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. What are we? Fourth generation. We are probably fourth or fifth, I don't know. Well, like fourth generation. Yeah. So is that how you m managed to figure out all these like who tells you these stories?

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Who explains to you? So so so so so my dad was very meticulous in terms of uh education and diaries. So my dad chronologically inscripted the family history. And that's why it's very easy for us to get an OCI card. All right, because he traced our history uh from our ancestry, the village we have. Up to uh my grandfather passed away, they were in direct contact with the family in Andhra Pradesh. And my grandfather used to go every year to to India. Yeah. Oh, he telegues. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

So you've seen your dad's diaries and he's kept in the world. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yeah, and he and he gave me my set of information for myself. We had three brothers, each one was given his chronological diary. And so my dad was meticulous in that sense, that he made sure everybody had their own uh uh chart of your uh your your original birth certificate, you know, we had to get the unabridge birth certificate, his one, his dad's, each one, each one had a copy of a set. So even though he left school at 77 and went to work on the farm, I mean he still kept meticulous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is said that my dad was a brilliant scholar and was an A-grade student at that at the at that time. And you know, there was a principal called Ker Naya, and that we we met uh that we knew my dad and said my dad she never never left school. From Sastery College. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, she left school, you know. So what did you do growing up? Uh what what were you like as a kid, Doug? I I love the farm. What did you do on the farm? I love playing. I mean, we we we played more than we uh we studied. So there was a school called called Cooper School in the farm school, and uh was it was a very organized school, and Cooper was uh of Indian descent, he had a farm there, and he had he had built as part of the nearest house uh a school for the children. No relation to Setz Cooper. Yes, Sasko's father.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Oh, wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was Satsko. He was an activist. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, Sas Sasko's father. So those did the classes where by grade one and two which were together, uh class one and two, then class uh three and four together. That's how the school that's how the classes were uh where where we all all were done.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Yeah, so big, bigger classes.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Uh no, no, smaller classes, but they were uh the mixed class because there were there were not enough space, and then the children with two feel were like ten in class one and ten in class two. Uh but they were teaching together but separately, you know. Yeah, there was a amazing Indian teachers how they're adapt to teaching. You know.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

So you just play on the farm, play on the cricket pitch there? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

How many siblings did you have, though? Uh we were we were three boys. Three boys. Yeah, yeah. I was I was the youngest, youngest of three. Okay. Yeah, you know, there. And so there was another school called Fannon School. They used to walk, uh my my brother used to walk to that school. We were in uh at the junior primary school. The senior primary school was a fanning school. They walked about five kilometers to school and back. You know. And what was your favorite thing to do at school? Just I I I I love running. I was an athlete.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

But you that carried on in your because I when I first met you, you also used to.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And even now, I I still cycle, I still uh drip running, I still walk, uh, right, and uh, I I can I love any challenges in life. Maybe I could do Mount Everest with Yakshin, who knows? No doubt. In October. Academically?

SPEAKER_03 9:16

Wait, wait, wait, we actually didn't mention this. We should have probably how Yak and Dr. Reddy know each other. I mean, Yak used to work for you, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah, uh, but I think uh long before uh before working, I think, you know, sometimes you know the universe of divine energy brings us together. So uh Yak's sister uh was known um uh before she got married uh to a uh to a future father-in-law, and his brother was, I mean, uh Rajasth Ramdas. And so so before Yak got back from Mauritius studying, and they told me, listen, yeah, they want one thing me to do, and they there's somebody coming from coming, come some come to Mauritius. Right? Uh, because they knew that I used to mentor students all the time. Uh I I love mentoring students, even my vital, wherever they are, uh, all over the world. Dental students. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dental students and young graduates. So, so uh Raj told me, please, you must uh uh take all the time and whatever happens, uh you must make sure Yak succeeds and you must pass his exams and he must uh do all the everything everything facility. So when Yak came, uh my surgeons open team, 27, he was blinked out to do crowns, uh fillings, the whole works, and then the mod of teaching, and then when you when you went to Western King for the exams, and everybody knew Yak there. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

All right, well let's let's rewind then and let's go back to the farm and schooling life.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

You were so you uh you liked running? Yes. And academically? So so so I was an athlete, so so I used to win races. I used to uh in school and um uh district races, uh provincial colours and KZN, right? Yeah, yeah. Everything I did there. And then and academically and I love learning, I love English, even now. I I love the language, I love uh the uh the the marvel of uh literature and and the intrigue of literature and language and usages and I just marvel of that. I could listen to languages uh uh on, you know, I I I used to go to a um uh I don't know whether you know the the Gothic Institute in Parkas, they have they have a language and literacy day every year. Okay, uh right. Uh mostly this year, right? So they have music and they have a bit of uh literacy, language expression, and all. So I love languages. I love love the English language. And Telugu? Speak any Telugu? Yeah, yeah, actually, the early days that we that we learned to speak. My grandfather and my grandmother were fluent in Telugu and in Tamil, and and and my dad and my mom. You know, so so we so we learned a little about Telugu and Tamil, but unfortunately, if you don't learn the language and if you don't speak the language, you you lose it very quickly. You know, so when I went to India, I learned Hindi. I was fluent in Hindi. Okay. That was a Manipal. Lakno, yeah, yeah, you'll get there. Yeah, so but yeah, coming to the farm. So I said academically, I love I love and I and I love to teach and learn. And my mom, my mom uh was she married a very young. My mom married me, married at the age of age of 14. Okay. So she was she was very young, and but she always uh her job was to teach us and learn us. That was her besides the cooking. But she lived in a big family setup, you know. I mean, obviously, you know, big uh 11 children, simply my mom was a so-called eldest of the daughters, you know, there, you know. Yeah. And so so schooling like were you doing well? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was always in the I was always in the top three of the of the school. So why did you do dentistry? How did that come about? So then from uh from the farm, then when the then the group had to go to farm overnight. Overnight we lost everything. So what happens there? Explain to us. So uh, you know, when the farm was declared a township, so uh all Indians had to move out or out of Cam's Close. So the apartheid government declares certain areas um not for uh uh whites only or for black occupation and where they established townships. So now Quatterbeka now is one of the biggest townships. Right. So they declared you hit a township. Uh so the Indian farmers uh who were very productive, there were a lot of farmers there on bananas and ginger and tomatoes and name it over there, and they they all had to leave the farms and they they paid everybody a pittance. Why do they have to leave? Uh because they declared it a black area. Okay. It was like Mayville area was declared a black area. Aren't you black? Or does it work like very regular? Yes, yeah, yeah. Indian, no, you're not black. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Explain that to us because I've got a lot of people. Yeah, because uh the thing is that it was very distinctive. Uh Indians were separated, uh, we had uh colors are separated, the blacks were and then you had the whites. Right. So the uh the Indian farms all over, including Chatswin, Wolby Dad, all these businesses, Cavendish, all were taken away. Okay, because they were declared townships which are all blacks only or blacks only? Yes. And you guys had to just leave. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We had to give up all the farms. We we virtually they gave everybody everywhere a pittance for 11 children. I think if you think about it, I mean five million Ryan was what you know uh was So uh I I I from what I know about Group Areas Act, it wasn't only designed to um segregate just whites from non-whites.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Yes. It was also like within the non-black community, so coloured Indians, because it would not allow uh like different races of non-blacks to mix.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

They wanted to divide everyone. Yes, yes. And this is the reason why they created Chatwa, they created Phoenix, right? Uh I mean you know, I mean eventually when we left there and we came to uh Greenwood Park, and Greenwood was divided to three areas that are a white section, you had a colored section, and then you had an Indian section.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

So was it literally overnight? So you one day you you were living on the farm. No, no, they give they gave you 90 days. 90 days. Well that's virtually overnight. And then so in 90 days you and your family have to pack up and use. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

And you said five million. That's a hypothetical figure you're using. Or was it five million?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Uh no, I I don't even know. But but I knew it was a pretence. Uh it could have been much less. Yeah. Could have been much less. So the government gives you money to move. Uh no, yeah, they take over the farm, they take over the uh the thousand hectares, basically. Expropriation.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was land expropriation land uh expropriation. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Exactly what it was. And then what did they expect you to do? Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, it should the you you you had to find your way. So you and your parents uh Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So our parents three brothers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so our family was our family was all split and divided. And so so my father's brothers were brothers were all split and divided. So uh one of my father's brother went to Spingo, and uh, we went to Yeah, someone went to Clarewood. So everybody was uh almost Where did you go to? Uh we went to we went to Greenwood Park. Greenwood Park, okay. That's the upper north by Effingham. Yes, yes. What age is this uh for you? Uh yeah, at six years old.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

Six years. You just up and move.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

And then no more playing on the farm and no more over there. No, no, no. Overnight. What do you do then?

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yeah, Greenwood Park is very steep.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

So what do you do then? From the age of six, what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

So I came to the Greenwood Park School. Uh right, right uh uh sort happened over there.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

And is it now is it almost like moving from the farm to an urban area?

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Did you exactly it was like that because we felt a bit educated coming to a so-called urban area, yeah, and you know, you got technically technically like a simple farm mentality, and we like we never been never went to a movie house and uh I never went to a town, right? Because everything we needed was in the farm, right? And everything we needed was you got there, and suddenly now we're exposed to uh tarred roads, you know. How was that? What was that like? Yeah, and yeah, and believe me, it it was almost like an upheaval in your in your if I look reflect back now, it affects your DNA, your consciousness, because we came from from a freedom of expression and uh uh walking barefoot, and now suddenly you have to wear sandals and shoes, right? And meeting up with uh like people your age were different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fortunately, the children were young and so they were easily adaptable in terms of uh having the free expression. Yeah. So and by by God's grace, fortunately, we managed to settle in the area uh and house next to uh my mum's uh friend that grew up in Mayville together. It just some divine divine thing happened. So next door was um was my was my friend Seggy Modi. Uh we were the same age. So uh so so his mum and my mum grew up in the same area in Mayville. So it just happened to be like that. It helped my mom so much in terms of adaptability into the area and for us as well. So she had a friend and actually we actually that we became friends.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Did you guys have TVs and stuff growing up?

SPEAKER_01 17:37

No, no, no, there's no TVs. What year are we talking about? Uh sure, um 1960. 60. 60, uh, what is it, two, whatever. So what do you do for fun in Greenwood Park? Uh oh, a lot of fun we had. Uh we should play, uh, play and uh play soccer, cricket, everything. But uh, you know, where's Effingham now, right? So so it the area was a very community-driven area. And uh the eldest of the area, so it's a very tiered area. So the eldest children took care of the youngest, younger ones and the younger ones. This is everywhere. It was a fantastic camarade, and the whole community owned the it owned everybody there, the children, families. And we played marbles, played tops, we played three tins, we played uh tenuchoids, uh right? Uh right, played all those uh games uh you can think of played in India, right? Creating our own carts, building our own things, our cricket bats.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

And your dad, what does he have to do now? Because he's moved away from the farm, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So my dad had a house rent class. So my dad's father, sorry, my mom's my mom's father was uh was a bookkeeper. He worked for a company called Bam Brothers uh in Queen Street in Durban. So through his business contact, the Bam Brothers were quite a big family in Durban. So then so they told him that there's a there's a shop that's going to be for for rent, and uh the people uh call uh call the Pele's, the Pelays with the the biggest uh owned almost all of Green Park, you know, and there's what the Pele family. So they said to me, they've got a house and they've got a got a shop to rent, and they said we mean uh to to consider it. So we came here and we started off from virtually nothing. Right and we're whereby my mom's sides were curtains. What shop? So what are you doing there? Uh yeah, it it was like a general dealer. If you think about it now, like um like a like a like a pick and paper market, right? A small version of that, selling anything and everything, from clothing to knives to cut ready to crockery, uh, to spices to What was it called? The shop uh is it was called Elgin Trading Company. Uh Elgin, E-L-G-I-N Trading Company. It was in Membraideen. Okay. Uh you go and work there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we uh we had to work there. This is it was part of uh part of a uh uh the family DNA of people who got shops. I had to work there uh every weekend. Every weekend we work, no matter how small we were. What did you do? Uh we we were packing, we used to clean up the shop, pack up the groceries, uh clear uh dust the place, clean the cabinets, do lots of things there. There are my two older brothers with there, they should help with the till, with the uh with uh you know serving customers and I actually be more playful.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

That's amazing, eh?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah, you know. And uh so um it's amazing what a part what the um the Cooperate Act did, how it stripped the people of everything that you think of that you of the so-called so-called wealth that you had from farms you thought you had wealth. Uh wealth, farms, community, dignity everything. Livelihood? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Yeah, but if I had to throw a spanner on the work stock, don't you think that I mean, if you look at like yourself, for example, or any of your colleagues that were relocated at that stage, do you think that it could possibly have been a move in the right direction? Like what if you were still a farmer and then later on that's when you know things went into turmoil at that stage and things were taken more aggressively? Like what happened in Zim, for example.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Yes, yes, sure, sure. I know it's a loaded question, but what what do you think? Yeah, yeah, no, no, I I think it made us more um resilient and in uh in retrospect, uh I'll give you a very good thing that happened in the family, right? So my um my dad had six they had six brothers. The three eldest ones were if were the farming, the with the farmers technically. The younger brothers were uh so uh my my father had said to them, you know, if you want to progress to the younger brother, don't come to the farm. You must go and study. So what happened is the calculator of that uh is a fantastic system. So the three elder brothers, each one took one of the younger brothers under the under the wing. So my my uh my uh my dad took the uh uh the order the three younger brothers, the elder of the three younger brothers, to study, and the second brother took one. That means they school them to study, university, every single thing. Uh right, and it's it's a wonderful thing of sharing and which we tend not to have now. I think that uh I wish we could reinforce that uh uh and Now, that the continuity of life basically. So this is what happened. The good thing is that the three younger brothers became great academic scholars and and academics in the world. You know what I mean? Yeah. No, well, I think Yak threw a broken spanner into the work secret.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

He said he's going to throw a spanner. I mean, obviously, the group areas at did not do good for people. It made life worse and it made things difficult. No, of course. You had to say it uh it was a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah, you had to adapt. I'm saying what you made of it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I think it it made us resilient and it made us uh bloodsweat and tears hard work. But can you imagine how much better it would have been if you could just were just given an environment to thrive in? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, because what happened is that when we came to Green Park now, so my uh my uh dad's younger siblings, some of them had to come and stay with us. They had to go to school. My younger auntie had to go to Durban Girls, and my one of my uncles had to go to Sastry College. So they had to come and stay with us. So we were renting in a house, three uh children, and together with my uh uh uh two other people, so we were seven in the house, you know. Bible lonely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we have to adapt to that, you know, and it's but also but sharing. It is something suddenly you know you lose everything, and how uh half pint of milk goes for everybody, for example, right? You know, I'm giving the scenario. I thought a lot about tolerance and sharing and caring. So, what school do you go to then when you move? Yeah, so I went to uh Greenwood Park Primary School. Right. Yeah. And then the dentistry thing, where does that come from? So so the dentistry thing that comes from uh that's much later. So people ask me why did I want to become a dentist, right? So my my uh uncle that my dad took care of, right? So uh uh right, so and he he eventually became the dean of the school, the Western Cape, and then he was overseas and he was professor at university. So I he was very close to us, and I always followed him, uh always been close to him. And so I always said that I want to be like him. His name? Uh Tramredi. Okay. Yeah, yeah, right. Uh so uh so so he was the dean at Western Cape where Post Apartheid. Yeah. Uh right, in uh she was the first first black dean of the of the dental school there. So I so I always said that I want to be there. Since the age of four years old, I set my my goal to become a dentist, right? So uh all my cousins were the age of four years old. Sure. So I didn't want to deviate from that, right? So all my cousins became uh became uh uh all in the medical field, most of them, all became doctors, right? People said you're mad, right? Right, you become a dentist. Why do you want to become a dentist? I I said we all teach it, we become a good doctor. But I set my mind on it. I wanted to become a dentist. And uh this is what I did. Because of J. Ram Ready. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where is he now? Uh he he he's he's now a retired dean, uh retired, and then he was vice-chancellor at the University of Durban Westville, right? And then uh uh from when he was capable, he was dean of the dental department at the uh uh at Devon Westville, then he became the vice-chancellor. So he's now retired. But no, Devon Westville had a dental has a dental department. Uh yeah, yeah, uh, it always had, it always had and still has, but they changed dental therapists and a certain patient of all like genus. So they don't train dentists. Had they ever trained dentist? No, no, no. Never trained dentists. They never trained dentists. Never, never, never trained dentists. Yeah, the the first gene was uh was uh guy called uh uh Jansen van Rensburg. He was the first headed department dental school. Eventually he was in Pretoria.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

So you knew from the age of four that you want to be a dentist?

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Yes, yeah, yeah. Uh uh that that was my pathway. Because of uh uh prof. Yeah, to yeah, to some extent. But also then I got fascinated by teeth and all that. Uh even now I'm very penetrated, but yeah, I brush my teeth about five, six times a day.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

Why why were you passionate about teeth? I mean, I have it.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Like coming how often did you guys go to the dentist growing up? Uh growing up. Uh when my dad's um uh um brother qualified, we were the dentist almost every every every six months. Uh but before that, you know, you only go to the dentist, I think if you if you had a problem, right? Otherwise you never went there, you never went to the dentist. I've been asking dentists this recently. Like, yeah. Did you floss growing up? Uh yeah, uh once he once my dad uh brother qualified and we learned to floss our tea.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Okay, man, once you're not. No, no, no, because uh uh a lot of us never grew up flossing. Yeah. Like we a lot a lot of people started flossing when they started dental school and things like that, when they learned about it properly.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

So you, at least your uncle ingrained that in you from uh child. Yeah, but I was always interested in diet and health, but because I was an athlete. Yeah. Yeah, right. From a younger age, I always knew that I had to have a certain percentage of I I you know, I had this self-taught taught thing in myself about protein and um carbohydrates and all these different kinds of things. And it became part of my lifestyle. And from young, so I was always conscious about eating and and and Jackson knows that if every every knows about uh what to eat, how I eat, when I eat, you know, I mean all that. So Greenwood Park primary then becomes Greenwood Park? No, no, no. From Green Park Primary School, we went to Sastry College. So everybody from Greenwood Park used to go to Saster College. Why? Uh at what age? At what? Uh that that that's from so-called Standard Seven, which is uh what is it, grade now?

SPEAKER_03 27:01

Grade nine. So you from grade nine, standard seven, you have to be standard six. Standard six, yeah. Also standard six, you you leave Greenwood Park primary. Standard five. There's no standard seven.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Uh yeah, yeah, no standard seven, which is uh grade. Oh, there's no high school, baby. No, no high school, yeah. So you move to high school, you go to Sastree College. Yeah, Sastry College. Where's Sastry? Yeah, Sastry College is in is in uh uh Wintcheton Avenue in uh right in the centre of Durban, next to the Sidden's hospital. And that is a well-known, like very famous institution, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because because Sri Lal Bhattus Sastri, right, who uh right, who was the uh Consulate General, so he lent his name to it, and he's the one, uh his family founding trust lent his name to that school. And people that come from there are proud to have come from. Yes, yes. The school is 100 years now old. And they had I think they had they had the centenary celebration recently.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Okay, and then in in in high school now, you're aiming to do well to get accepted into medicine or something.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yes. And how does it and then how do you do it? So so so when we finished, right? So I w and I went to to to uh to the interview, right? And uh when you finish what? When you finish my trick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I I wanted to do dentistry, right? Right, so it was still very much Jewish, uh, right, or very much whitish, shall I say? Yeah. That this is how it is, right? So what do you mean? Like uh predominantly white Jewish. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And is it by chance you would When is this? Uh uh by chance you would think of getting into dental school in this was post 76, right? Okay. Over there, right? That you get to dental school. Then something happened uh over there, right? So they couldn't get into couldn't get into dental school and then uh then they chose to go to uh Westfull to do your uh uh your your your your BSC first year. But wait, hold on. So you go for an interview at Witz. Yeah, yeah, and you couldn't get to dental school, couldn't get into it. Then they wanted you to do uh dental therapy, do uh sorry, uh do a speech therapy, do other courses, and they they they they said that you don't qualify. Why? Wait, were your marks not good enough? No, no, no, no, not not marks good enough, but they just said that uh that there's no space for you. Oh, because skin tone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The c color was the gender. Really? Yeah. But but did they make it like overtly that's not? No, no, no. No, they call you for the interview. They call you for the interview. Yeah, they call you for the interview. No, no, they don't tell you that. They don't tell you that. Um they call you for the interview, face-to-face interview. Right. Uh you submit your master called you there for the interview. But but did any like non-whites get in your year? Uh people have gotten one, maybe one on every two or three years or every five years. That's how it it was.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

But did did you have to be like a remarkable student, or how did that work? Uh nobody really knows.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Nobody really knows. It's an unspoken thing. Yeah, yeah. Nobody really knows how you got. Even in Pretoria, uh there were there was one or two people got into Pretoria. How they got nobody really knows. So it's not like you it not like you didn't have the marks or you didn't have the qual uh No, no, no. It's nothing to do with your marks, nothing to do with that. Uh right? It was it was almost a bizarre system of a So why do they even call you then? Uh yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

What are you finding? No, no, I don't I don't but this is I'm genuinely asking, I'm not probing knowing the answer and all that stuff. I'm genuinely asking why would they call you if if it is a racist system at the time, right? Because the part it was full full swing, right? Absolutely. So why even bother to call you for an interview if they know that you're gonna waste your time? I mean, they what optics are they worried about? They just uh they just internationally. I don't know if Witz was worried about what they looked like.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Yes, absolutely. It was a global school. And Witz was one of the world's best dental schools at one time. And Witz University per se uh was in the top 20 of the world.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

So do you think they were doing it to show the world that we support these? Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

They're just not good enough for it. This is why once in three years, once in five years, they would get to get to get somebody into dental school. You know, and you and you heard of Dr. Min Botalanta, right? Motlana was one of them who got to dental school, got to medical school. And this is not like conspiracy theory, is this this is what happened? Yes, there's no no, this is a real fact of the matter. You know what I mean? There was no rationale to it. To say that uh in year one somebody would get in year two. There was nothing like that. But presumably they would justify it by saying you didn't perform well. Yes, if you fail your interview, you fail. Some of them I know that you should get a little uh uh a quick uh on on-site test, for example.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Yeah, so how did your what did your interview go? Like what?

SPEAKER_01 31:15

No, my interview was fine. You know what? I I I because I didn't I didn't write any tests. I mean, this is merely an oral interview. You go to Joburg from Durban. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

Had you been to Joe Burg before? Never, never. First time. Tell us about that. How do you get there? I'm interested in like these finance.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

But even before that, Doc, like what you told your dad now you want to study the industry. Yeah. What was he like? Like, yes, go for it. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

They were very happy about it, right? Uh Baden School. You know, Indian families were always sacrificed, sacrifice education. My dad always said that we'll give you money for education, but we can't give you wealth uh wealth in our in our legacy, right? But everything is about education. The Indian families believed that education was our road to uh survival and success.

SPEAKER_04 31:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Right? And so that's why they said uh that whatever money they always have, they always come together and put it together. This is what they did for my dad's three younger brothers. They made sure they qualified, they succeeded.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

Okay, so you tell the old man I want to do dentistry, he's happy, we'll support you as best as we can.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yes. You apply where? Yeah. How do you apply? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because at that time, Vitza was the only dental school. Oh really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh Vitza and then Pretoria was a dental school. So why didn't you apply? Did you apply to Pretoria? No, no, no. Pretoria, there was a it was an undritten rule that Indians don't apply to Pretoria. Yeah. It was uh something like a rule, but it was an undritten rule. And also we had I had to get a permit. Uh permit to go from uh from from Durban to You have to apply for a permit from the government to travel to Pretoria.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

Uh to yeah, to Joe Janisburg. Even Joe Berg, okay. But sorry to belabor this point or this question. So you decide not to even bother with Pretoria because they don't even care about optics, they're just not gonna accept you.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Or they might call you. Yeah, yeah. Would they call people? Yeah, yeah, but but but no nobody from Durban ever mentioned Pretoria. It wasn't even on the radar, such as uh you but it was like it was it's just an unknown f uh there's almost like an unwritten fact that you don't go to get it because it's it's a white dominant African place.

SPEAKER_03 33:14

So you apply to Vutts, at least, and you're you then you how do you get to Joba? Who applies for the permit and all that stuff?

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Yeah, so so my uh you you know you know this uh people in the Hong Kong Indian community, somebody will help, somebody knows somebody in the police uh department, somebody will help and assist to get a permit, and but it's the whole rigmora because you have to go to the Department of Indian Affairs, yeah, you have to go there. Department of Indian Affairs, yeah, House of Delegates. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to go there first, and then you then you then you go to the white department, you get another stamp on it. A white department? Yeah. Yeah, right, right, right, where they give you permits to travel. Why the white what's the white department? Uh no, the the Indians want to rectify you Indian and you genuinely want to go for something, uh like to Janice Bell, and the and and the white department will give you the uh the stamp of the permit to travel.

SPEAKER_03 33:58

So they give you the go-ahead. Okay, this guy is going there because he's got an interview at Witz or dental school. Yes. So you get that permit, and then how do you travel?

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so so I had this um uh lecture at the University of Devon Bros. Professor Roy Jithu, he pitched in drama. So he uh he was my speech therapist because I had a speech problem when I was young, starting. So so him. So so so so I so I went with his uh his uh his brother, uh, they were going to Giannisburg. Because I was gonna ask you, how how how do you know this lecturer? But he was your speech therapist. Yeah, he was my speech therapist. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

He sort of gone.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Yeah, sure. So he's the one who facilitated this thing travel to uh I don't I remember I I stayed in in Benuni, the so-called Actinball was over there. And when I stayed in Benoni at that time, Attinbull Actinball had no roads, right? Actinball was just mud, right? It was all muddy muddy, I remember this story. So how did you travel in train or no, you had traveled by uh by car. Oh, nice, nice. Yeah, to have traveled by car. And we had to go through uh uh Newcastle, that's a long road. And then we stopped at the border post there. Right? And you present your permit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Present your pres present present your permit. And and then when you enter here, uh outside um which they're now called called uh you know Balvovilias area, now there's another border post to stop you there again.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

Who who you driving with at the time? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Uh uh his brother, Anunjetu. Ananjuttu, and you come and you get to Witz. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

So where do you go?

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Like take me through this whole story. Yes, so so Wits was in uh gentlemen was in Jorison Street. Right. Uh I know that my wife used to work in Jorison, I think. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Very near, very near where where you with us to work. At our old uh uh our previous guests, um, one of his practices.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

Yes, yes. Um Mansoor's practice in Jarison. So you so you what you you drive and you you make it through the border post. Go straight over again.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

You go straight to Wits. You don't even go and visit somebody or no no no no no. We get to Actonville and we stay there overnight. Okay, you stay overnight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's playing? Yeah, yeah. So you then so so uh my uh my um the lecturer, Professor Anand Jesus' cousin, usually live in Actonville. And first time you're meeting this person now. Yeah, never met everyone before in my life. Okay, yeah. Hello, I'm just coming for the interview.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Thank you for letting me stay here on my papers. And tomorrow's the interview.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Yeah, yeah. Okay. And then we leave after the interview back to Dublin.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Okay, no, no, but take you. Stop skipping. Stop skipping. So you go to this interview the next day. Yeah. Anand Jittu takes you there. Yeah. Uh he waits in the car or something. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

So you get in there. And when you walk into Witz, what's it like? Yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, I had to go alone there, and he had he and he couldn't come in. No, well, what do you mean? They here to drop you off outside Witz. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the on the on the roadside. Wow. How do you even know where to go?

SPEAKER_03 36:39

This is why I want this granularity because you you it might feel normal to you, but to me, this is like bizarre. Absolutely bizarre. He drops you off outside. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

You walk into the gates, is there a guard there that is? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and these all were whites, right? Because there was no no so-called black guards, everything. 1970? Uh six, yeah. Six. You walk in.

SPEAKER_03 36:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

So you get in now, obviously you're feeling like you're unwelcome already. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Then where do you sit? Where do you wait? Can you remember all of that?

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I did clear. I mean, you wait in a bench outside, uh, right after the interview, interview room.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

Any other non-whites next to you sitting there?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

No, no, no. I was I was I was I was the only one that were there at that that time. Yeah, I was at eight o'clock, so I was there at quarter to eight. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody called me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They could call me in there. And you sit there? Yeah. And how many people are at the on the panel? There were ten. Ten people? Yeah. In each department. I'm guessing. Or white men. Yeah, yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

What did they ask you?

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Yeah. So ask me why you want to study dentistry, where you come from, and why you think you'll succeed? So, like this seemed like basically a podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, well, what makes you want to study dentistry and why you think you'll succeed? And uh what you why you think that you can make a difference, the difference to people's teeth. And did they ask you if you opened up a watch?

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Have you ever asked you, do you have you ever opened up a watch? No, no, no. You get that question. You know why I asked? Yeah. Mark Wertheimer, you know him. Yeah, yeah. Other dontus. He told me about his interview at Futz, and I can't remember the name of the person, but they asked him. Professor Preston must be. We'll have to double check. They asked him, have you ever opened up a watch? And then somebody asked him if he knows what a spring con is and how many teeth does a spring con have. Yeah. A spring con is a is a grasshopper. Yeah. And it was uh interesting to hear what how his interview went. So he didn't get any of those bizarre.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

No, no, my interview was so mundane and was so like uh checkbox. Uh almost like, yeah, uh, and almost like checking. Are you uh formality? Yeah, but I feel as if it were just just an incidental interview. There was nothing uh nothing scientific about it. Okay. Just to say they've interviewed this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I yeah, I yeah, and almost to get uh to get around and ask me a lot of questions where I come from, what's my background, or ask me a lot about those kinds of things. Did you have a podcast?

SPEAKER_03 38:49

Did you get a chance to ask them any questions and did you?

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Richard. Uh no. They didn't ask me to ask him a question. Okay. Didn't ask me to ask them any questions. How did you feel? Were you nervous or no?

SPEAKER_02 38:58

I I just feel totally uh I knew at that time I I was I was like totally uh I was I was like disengaged with the interview process.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Had you interacted with white people before this? Um my father had the business in uh in uh in Elgin training, so we used to deliver groceries to uh the uh the chairman of Corobrick, uh Mr. Mr. Johnson at his house in uh in Rose Hill, right? That was uh and and few of the directors which did because they insisted my father used to need to come personally, and you couldn't send the groceries with any of the workers uh to the house. So you were an Uber Eats delivery. Uber Brown. Mr. D. Mr. M D. Yeah, yeah. Is that right? So my father had to deliver the groceries to the to the house personally. And you went tagged along sometimes to carry the groceries over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but that's that's the limit of your interaction with white. Yeah, yeah. For example, the they wouldn't allow blacks to come into their delivery. My dad did to take it himself.

unknown 39:56

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Yeah, you know, that's how But that's the extent of the interactions you would have right as as a as a service provider.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Yeah, yeah. And when Mr. Johnson used to come to the shop there, and he would not come into the shop. Yeah. Uh he would sit in his in his car, uh, and he had a Rolls Royce. I won't forget that, right? So my dad had to go and ask him what he wanted, he'd give them a list. Uh right, and then he they then used to smoke, say he smoked this uh say a F and Ryan cigarette. So he said, Oh, cotton a week, right? Yeah. His wife will come in the car, sit outside, and they and they and they knows outside the uh right outside the shop, and they must presume that uh that that is they're waiting outside. Somebody knows if they're coming there uh like almost like uh you know a royalty. A royalty. And so we used to go and get a a personally delivery of the list, taken there, and then after a few days it must go delivery to the house. Wow. So the service the service on slow though. Days.

SPEAKER_03 40:54

Days. There's an app for that now, Doc. Yeah, called by it. Okay, no, but let's go back. That interview. So you you know I mean you'd hardly interacted with white people before. Now you're sitting in a room for white.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

I mean I'm I'm telling you, it's quite intimidating. I can imagine. I can imagine. Right, and yeah, uh I was 17, right? Sure. Yeah. Right. Uh I mean, a 17-year-old to go to an interview is quite an experience.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

At Vitz. Yeah. Were you already not wanted?

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you immediately felt that you were that you were not wanted. I mean, you you you felt I I actually when I finished your interview, I I felt that I I I didn't want you didn't want to be there.

SPEAKER_03 41:28

Yeah, but you still do the industry. But if you'd gotten it, you would have gone, you would have done gone there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Yeah, I I I think I w I would have, but you know, I I just felt uh a very hollow feeling myself that I I think don't think it's a place that they wanted me and that I wanted to be also, I think, when I left there. It's it's sad, it's really sad. So what happens? You go back to Durbs the next day with uh Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I go and uh I I go and uh then I go to university. No, wait, wait, wait. So you they they contact you and they say, no, you didn't get it.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

Thanks for the same.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 41:56

Um telegram or how do they Yeah, yeah, yeah, but telegrams. Telegram, huh? Yeah, telegram.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

And then what happens next to you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I and I I drove for the university for the BSC course. Which university? Uh Devon Verspaw. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

So you do your BSC and then you do well.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

What's the goal of uh of applying for BSC?

SPEAKER_01 42:15

Yeah, the BCP. So everybody said if you do a first-to-first year BSC, they can get to get into medicine or dentistry there afterwards. Also at Wetzel. Yeah, yeah, and then afterwards, Western Cape opened up. Also it opened up in 77, 78. 78 it opened up. But but I got into a got into a casualty situation that then there was uprising in Devon Westville, and uh then um then the the then the Western Cape, uh they were they were gonna they're gonna they was gonna take uh us there into a prelum uh scientific uh program. Uh lots of guys who went there.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Hold on, this might have been the similar time when m Mr. Aaron Motwaledi, Dr. Aaron Motzualedi was Yes, yes, correct. He just mentioned that they they weren't letting blacks in at one stage in Durban. Correct. And then they protest. Yeah, correct. He's right, he's right. So so this is probably the same time. Same time. What a what an overlap, eh? Yeah. Yes. So what happens? You do the BSC. Yes. How long is that?

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a it's a one-year program. One year and then the whole thing got disrupted. You know, the uprising started and everything, so everything just everything just exploded in the country and virtually virtually almost like you know, the university didn't function for a year and a half. The university almost two years, the whole country came to standstill. And then I said, you know, over there. So what are you doing those yeah? Yeah, and and then I got involved with the student um student politics over there with with my friend uh Jay and Jay Naidu there.

SPEAKER_05 43:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

With uh Jendra and Jasel and Naidu, who was who became the first minister in the in the Oh, as in Jay Naidu, um the the famous curly hair. How did you how did you get involved there? So so Jay and I we we were in school together in Saster College.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

So what did you do?

SPEAKER_01 43:50

How he was menaced off? Um uh uh Minister of Reconstruction and Development, right? Okay. I think something like that, his portfolio was called.

SPEAKER_03 43:59

So what were you doing?

SPEAKER_01 44:00

with them? Yeah, yeah. So so so all involvement with the with the friends and the politics of the students uprising and uh organizing the uh students in terms of the student politics and making sure everybody is like aligned to the uh uh to the uh udf and the democratic processes of the uh of of the of of the country so dentistry took a back the back seat yeah yeah yeah during that time because we got caught up because a year and a half the whole country came to a standstill there was virtually no classes no studying uh everything and even that time you said said the guy said you go to Western Cape but then then Western Cape was not an option at that time uh because Western Cape was worse than uh UDW Western Cape for two and a half years I think almost didn't have any any any any studies and all that you know I mean you know so how do you get into dentistry? What happened? So so so dentist eventually I got involved with this involvement this political thing and terms of the uh with J and J and then um a lot lots of people said uh because of the uh the nature of the security uh force and the police so they recommended that lots of people like myself who got involved with J and politics should leave the country. Okay because what your life was in danger. Well they were locking people up right and they locked Jay up at that time as well uh right into into prison right and so I left the country. Oh yeah right so then I left to country to Swaziland and for Swaziland I left to uh Mozambique for Mozambique I went to I went to Tanzania why why I know you're a political refugee and from Tanzania I went to London. Why do you do all this right uh because of the nature of the politics of the country because they were because the uh apartheid government controlled Swaziland they controlled uh the Mozambican border uh right so you had to go uh into the uh ANC uh camps as far away as possible those who were involved in certain politics at that time why did the apartheid government want to lock you guys up yeah yeah because if anybody was in opposition to that anybody that felt that there was a threat to the government status quo uh were getting locked up and almost on a random basis hundreds of guys how did you rally up people to support? I mean there was no WhatsApp or social media those days it was a fantastic system right it was a fantastic under underground networking system is always by by year word of mouth yeah and it's always it's about this amazing system of networking silence and uh it's almost like um uh you know uh the uh uh the concept of uh the Cuban uh uh system of of uh Che Govara system of working underground and networking and uh whereby the whisper was the dictum of communication it was like that it was a fantastic networking system of an underground cell system can you give us some like insight into that yeah like uh I mean for example that each one would belong to a certain cell right each one in each cell you'd add up three six or nine people in a cell of communication so you'll able to communicate at certain time certain uh hour certain day at a certain place you're almost like you know uh you wouldn't uh and then uh for example I communicate with Yak and Yan communicate with you you communicate with Yuvati he'll go on like that cascading away and uh then you will assemble at a certain point and without you even knowing you've assembled but you in a in a big crowd of a thousand people there will be ten people who have organized the whole program. So you but that sounds like a sorry yeah it sounds like it could be open you up to a broken telephone situation but I know also at that stage the Party government like they demonized uh that gathering or that as you're saying because they were calling it what a contour of uh fighters yes yes and almost like guerrilla warfare they were like yes like calling the you you guys terrorists yes absolutely they they banned gatherings at one time right but because of the nature of the volume of people that were sort of uprising and they couldn't stop it. You know I mean they they there no way they could stop it because you know either they because because we had international media and we had like Reuters behind us and well you're not scared that you're gonna get locked up. Yeah yeah there's a very close they come close to very close almost like um uh to the minutes of of of of getting getting locked up then I then then imagine I had to I smuggled myself out of out of the country uh just daringly right uh I was I was helped up by the uh uh under underground network I I went through Jansmatt's uh airport right in in a in a disguised way to Swaziland the smallest plane that took nobody they may thought we could be people go to the border they were guarding the border but they didn't guard uh their flight to Swaziland because they thought that nobody would dare to dare to go to a small plane that landed in the Manzini airport uh right and this disguise what do you mean uh they they they watch you disguise your old self into your you you went in disguise what did you wear yeah yeah yeah disguise wear but you almost have a beard you have a moustache suddenly you look different completely so how did you do it wow what did you look like and what did you change I changed a beard and moustache and you're like an older person you'll never even think so you put it on you you tie you like glued on a beard yeah yeah and uh did you have an alias and things or no yeah yeah yeah I was called I was called David Mudley David Moodley you know um that's a real picture do you know who David Motsamai is no do you know Doc no David Motsamai yeah he was um that's Mandela that's Mandela's alias when he was on the run and he got caught David Motsamai Motsumai oh yes correct correct I don't remember that so you were David Mudley maybe they they had the DMs yeah yeah maybe you slid through so you went from Yansmatt which which is now currently Oartambo right yes yes and you fly to Swaziland it wasn't being monitored because they didn't think anybody would have the would want to go to Swaziland.

SPEAKER_03 49:38

Yeah yeah no they didn't think they may were dare to go to Menzini airport.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

And David Moodley goes there on a plane to Swaziland then you end up in Mozambique somebody told me that I must go to um to the underground network I must go to the holiday inn I must I must be there for three days then and the guy from the from a pharmaceutical industry on a pharmaceutical reps uh also involved in the ANC will contact me. And who would you say somebody told you how do they tell you like somebody actually comes up to you and says hey David you need to go here or there they they they they said to me that they would they will come and they will contact me. Wow right and like financing who finances all of it was this yeah yeah my my dad had given me giving me some some uh some money to take with me uh right with there and uh you know and and you just as it's a lot you learn faith I'll tell you were you married at the time no no no single single sure hopping from one country to the other uh uh basically avoiding arrest yeah yeah avoiding arrests yeah so I got into uh uh you know after three after three days the guy the pharmaceutical rep contacted me uh right uh right and uh uh his name was so so-called Carolia but obviously that was not his real name yeah uh you know I mean obviously you know that's not his real name so he contacted me and he put me in touch with the so-called uh this thing called the White House in in Swaziland where the uh part of the uh the center that was underground center uh there in uh in in Swaziland outside in Babane so uh I was I was housed there uh right for for about 48 hours and then and that's two two days yeah yeah yeah well I was two two days I was out after the three days in a holiday in there and uh then um and the guys told me they'll meet me at a pub uh uh you know the NCAA three days somebody will come and come and tap you on the shoulder we'll do that wow this is like a a a spy movie yeah then somebody comes and taps you and then what happens yeah right and he tells me who he is and everything and he and he told me that tomorrow morning just be ready somebody will come and fetch you and you are ready you always table one time you weren't ready yeah and and then uh then I go to this uh under underground White House right uh over there right and so they go there I was there for two days and then uh I get transported I transported with the trucklet of of um cows I'm inside the the truck with the cows really yeah right with the cows in between the cows you are yeah yeah right in between the cows luckily you you're from the farm so you know it's familiar territory so they asked me right so I said no I said fortunately because you know you grew up in a way that's almost like rural you know in your upbringing right so you you don't get messed up you don't think about getting messed up and all these kinds of things I think so so there's a conveyor or convey of tri or of of transport goes right uh that say they're transporting these cows to to to to Mozambique and so there's a decoy that takes place right in terms of uh you have two vehicles before you uh then you then you are the third one and you have two vehicles after you uh yeah right there's five vehicles so I was almost shot so the vehicle before me was was shot in bullets the they sprayed the bullets into that vehicle they thought that's a vehicle carried uh the underground fugitives as in you yeah as a as in me but uh but it it wasn't me uh right we that was the empty vehicle yeah that's right yeah were there other people with you which are no no no I was alone so you were the target yeah yeah you must have been quite like uh important quite an important person in this movie yeah yeah yeah I was I was involved with we were we were uh we were part of the organizing the underground student network you should write a book Doug yeah yeah I'm writing a book okay good good because yeah we could have done with reading it before we had the I'm as surprised as you are and I thought I knew Doc most people don't know even my own family family my own family but wait take this they all I'm the they suspect something about it isn't but then take us okay so you've heard it here first exclusive that's why I needed to make sure everything was recording carefully um then you go to Mozambique and then yeah yeah so so then so so then I go to the uh uh the the border post in uh right in uh Namasha is a wait wait wait left that so this vehicle gets shot and I'm I'm assuming people die in that car no no no there's no one there was no nobody there's the open the vehicle vehicle no the driver's there drivers in the front of this of this um of the of the small truck right the driver's run but they they should the people behind the uh on the so-called uh cabin or of the truck they uh it looks like a a truck that carries cows yeah yeah but there's nothing in that in that vehicle okay then everybody keeps on moving and they then they they come here and they they they then they check open open the thing with the torch yeah uh the uh these they could security forces the security forces in those days had freedom in Swaziland Swaziland was got was virtually controlled by the African whites and they they looked inside with the torch they couldn't find so you can see this light this torch light going around you you're parking quiet there among the house yeah and the others yeah at the I I was quite I had I I I was totally in black right I was totally in black crazy this is this is amazing yeah yeah right imagine if you had cell phones those days you're so you see this torch coming and then you like you're obviously now panicking you yeah yeah but but you're so quiet you're you're almost like you can't even whisper you can't even get your heart rate up uh right and right fortunately right what age are you at this time? Uh what what is it? I was 20 yeah 20 so and you peak fitness and everything so yeah yeah yeah but you must have been sweating crazy no you don't you don't believe it right it's an uncanny thing if I tell you the calmness and the coolness and because I was always in the I grew up in a spiritual light in the divine society and part of the salonization so we were involved in pranayama yoga and and meditation so during this whole journey of mine what kept me grounded is my spirituality. Okay right and I was unusually calm I can't even tell you uh right I was not even sweating if I tell you you asked me if I was sweating no I believe that I totally believe it yeah right so and I get to the border post in right in uh in uh Namasha right and uh on uh this is almost like on uh dawn uh right here you go dawn so so they drop you off not at the border post but before the border post and they and they and they they is somebody there from the NC underground uh from the border to pick you up yeah it's a black guy yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah one of the one of the senior black guys uh from the from the underground movement and you'd never met them before never met them before right right so they knew that I I was coming what an amazing system and obviously a big system of trust right oh yes trust trust that that might be a a spy and exactly because that's what the apartheid government started to do they started paying people tricking exactly exactly but you had to take it you know on for the word yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so you meet this guy and then they they uh then just across about um we when the when I when I got where the where we are uh not not even about three kilometers uh away and we and we and we could hear guys the African guys uh and black guys talking Afrikaans right about three kilometers away and we had to sit in this big grass still uh for for about an hour and a half without even moving uh moving a grass because they were about a kilometer away from a kilometer half around us where they were going. And right and uh so they this uh you know I felt that they felt something was on. So we had away for an hour and a half. So so we got there in the morning about say about about uh 430 in the morning and only about six o'clock then we had a creep across the the border to my to Namasha border took us two hours uh right uh creeping creeping on the grass and moving uh right virtually on the grass but once you got through there I mean Mozambique was less regulated than Swazi yeah then we got then then the another set of guys took over from the guy that who uh who took who escorted me from the Swaziland body to the Mozambique bar there was another set of guys took me across but when you're crawling and creeping and crawling I mean you could just be shot dead. Yes absolutely shot you dead. Yeah yeah okay get to Mozam then what else then then the then the nut set of ANC uh underground movement uh uh to take you there. Yeah and then then from there that you go to a place called uh uh Namaasha that's a border post as a border so it's so there's another underground house there so it's a double sort of house there's another underground house there uh like you know in the basement where you can stay and literally underground yeah underground so how long do you say that was I was there for there for two days. Yeah and then from two days there then they move you to another then they move you uh to another house to another house to the north moving up yeah yeah you're moving up then they moved to move us to Maputu and then uh from about Maputu then you then you stay there for five days Maputu. And then they there I met about all the big ANC brass techs from from Zuma to the Taboombecky to um to name it Botlante and the Joe Slovo. Yeah yeah yeah Joe Slovo. Then they then they ask you the stories and uh exactly uh you give them a narrative of what's happening internally the internal ANC situation who's involved so they were in exile as well yeah yeah they were they were in exile but hold on I mean this is fascinating so they're all located there and you just you you speak to it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but but they they they come in drive in there and they drive out because the different people the different units of the ANC Slovo was running once Zumo was running the underground intelligence Tabombeki was involved in something you know you know I mean and uh the late uh uh what do you call it um uh uh Tambo Oliver Tambo you know you know all those different people will they know you if they see this show will they recognize you do you think what do you think uh I don't know Macmaraj and Indres Naido you know you know you know Indres Naido from from from Linesia and Indrais Mudli from Dublin was now late you know involved with them. So Indres Indus uh Mudli I he I I lived with him in uh Swaziland and we were in a house of bats but there were just bats living in the house yeah yeah yeah we I was there for the two two for two days within uh right over there we had to move in you know I mean no this is what constantly moving yeah yeah and what happens after Mozambique yeah so after Mozambique and then I went to Tanzania yeah right right in Tanzania we went to a place called Morogoro with the AMC camp and often there they there they take you to a place called Mavimbu. Mavimbu uh m Mazimbu. Mazimbu is where the uh people that they want to send out to for education that's training yeah it was a training center yeah yeah the Morogoro is a training center and and uh and and uh and and Mazimbu is where the people go for education so when you're too hot property they tell you you can't join the uh the the active contour you have to do education how do you know all this yeah I read about it okay yeah you did history in school no so how do you know interests I want to hear it from the actual person so so we we so we so we went to the Majimbu camp was it what was the goal of all this movement okay yeah why would they be so so what the move because of safety and security yeah so the ANC uh in Morugoro it was almost like an ANC colony then the from there the all the education people would send them to school to study uh with the political education dentistry medicine so the ANC developed a cadre of people uh across the spectrum from engineers to medical dental oh uh people all right so mazimbu was the uh the camp where the people used to go in transit for education this is all making sense so basically there were the the end goal of this was to get you educated yeah in dentistry well whatever you choose uh it has nothing to do with dentistry I don't know no no no no okay so what so uh Mazimbo score yeah yeah what happens day after yeah so so so from there and so I I told them that we want to get I'm gonna do I want to do education because uh otherwise you you you you'll be you either gotta you could give you choices like I use like military sciences you you can choose a lot of kids but I chose them that I I want involved in the health sector it's amazing and who are all the people that are here like at this camp who do you see all different people from all of the country all over the all of South Africa yeah all of the country all of Tanzania yeah and so what's that like all the do you see anybody you recognize no no no nobody I recognize because our unit from Durban yeah uh I was only one that came out of the unit from from from Durban. The other people we had gone to Zambia some people gone to Zimbabwe uh right right but I I went through some people to Botswana route so it's a camp full of political activists that are coming to be either educated or putsa that's that's fascinating. Were there any whites? Uh yeah we're in exam yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah they they were the there were the whites in in uh Tanzania the whites whites it's amazing even when the NC structure right the whites and they were in a different camp oh wow it's crazy it's it's so bizarre right uh right right it's so it's so bizarre they would have thought they could have been spies even yeah yeah yeah they but but the NC were very smart they cemented people you know I mean you know and they also monitored you monitored people as well with the women because remember what women were separate as well women so women were there yeah yeah okay because remember what Aaron um um the manager said when he was interested in all of these speakers and and whatnot but the only the only um time that he went and listened was when it was the professor from the university who was a white person yeah who was speaking out against apartheid. Yes and yeah but okay so it's fascinating there were white people there but they were also separated yes crazy crazy crazy even though it's the same political end political goal right yes yes so the goal is obviously to over overthrow the apartheid government and to get yes yes yes yes okay so you tell yeah yeah and the whites were very well organized and uh and uh you know I mean Slova had this all uh Jewish uh segment of people heavily involved in the NC and and and they they were uh obviously obviously high powered fluent in terms of influencing United Nations influencing governments throughout the whole world so the the they were they were throughout Africa or wherever you went to the and once you get to this Mazimbo place now is it a camp or whatever yeah yeah yeah it's a camp it's a big farm camp but also they got uh uh they want people to study education see everybody there as well that the older people will st teach the younger one is go on like that. Oh in the camp in the camp camp and how long do you but did you feel safe there once you get there very safe no longer crawling and creeping no no no no hiding with the cows and all that you in a safe place safe place safe place to do that and how long do you stay there? Yeah yeah so so I was there for a month there. Right? Yeah yeah and from there and then then they gave you a choice in the world uh uh United there's a guy uh Mendy and Samang Mendy Samang was the uh was the one of the first ambassadors from the NC Post apart in London so he was in charge of the education portfolio so at the camp yeah yeah yeah they're there at the camp you he was in charge so he would facilitate your uh um uh devolution of responsibility of where you want to study and what you want to do and then then they give you a choice eventually right and then then then they then they send you to transit in London. Uh this is this is what to study in Europe you transit London Australia.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:45

So London was the transit point of the main hub yeah the heathrow for um activists that are going to study elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

Yeah yeah so you get sent to London after a month yeah yeah yeah London first time you you're going over overseas like literally over the sea yeah in your life or not really yes yes and you go on a plane obviously yeah first time on a plane yes no no no I went to Princewaziland you remember oh yeah yeah yeah sorry but a first international flight yeah yeah not as but you're not treated like how does that work so when you get onto that plane you're you're not like a treated as different yeah so so basically you the you you have two passports you have your United Nations passport and you have your South African passport which you smuggled your South African passport will keep with you and then you get a nation passport and and so you have to throw one passport away you have to throw your nation passport away they tell you that where where where in the in the in the in the plane you have to throw it away what to get you have you have to destroy.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

So to get on the plane you need the UN passport yeah yeah to get on the plane and then you you destroy it on the plane and there's a group of you all going to to London.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:51

Um yeah but you all not even known each other uh yeah that's how it is so it's secret but it's not crazy man and then you Yeah, you have to get to get you get to London and then uh um somebody meets different people. The uh and you don't don't meet all the people together. Oh, so it's not like you're all on an excursion and you all get there. No, no, no, no point. Yeah, because security forces everywhere. The whole world was security forces. So who do you meet? Yeah, yeah. So so I so I meet uh Indaris Budli, who was originally from Durban, was Professor Juke Zedden in the pot pharmacy. And that he was then. He so he was in London, so he was he wasn't ready, he was in exile in London. Right. And he greets you and then what do you do? He said, yeah, so I met him, I met him, so I meet him in London, and then and he gave tells me then I met uh uh what's his name, uh Fatih Fatim Fatima Mir's son. Uh what's his name now? I just um Who Fatimami's son? Yeah, son. Uh the the the what the the the the the one who died in an accident. Um I just forget his name now. Uh Rashid? Yeah, yeah. Rashid Mr. I just Google that now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rashid and I got him very well.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

He was an activist who went into exile in London for nearly 14 years during the departed era. Correct, correct, correct, correct. Yeah, yeah. You should meet him?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

Yes, yeah, yeah. So I meet Rashid, and then uh then we speak about what we want to do and do and everything. And then uh then uh Indres said that, you know, mate, why don't we bring your parents over? Because Indres's wife is from Grimwrk, uh Kriba. So so they knew my parents, we so we could manage to connect up with them, then they came over over over uh to to London. Your folks. Yeah, yeah, right? Uh uh over over there at that time. So we're uh after so many months you met them, and then they then we looked at different options to study. And then uh Mendy and Simang gave you the option to the United Nations to study what you want to do dentistry in London, where you want to do. Then they give you a choice. You go to India, you go to Australia, you go to Russia, you go to Germany, whatever it is. So my philosophy was that uh I mean divine destiny. Uh wherever it may be, I'm supposed to be go, I'll I'll go. And so so uh so uh Mendy uh Samang and Indressist said, I mean, I mean he's got a brother in India, so it's always me, why don't you send him to India uh to study, to the ANC office there? And this is how it happened. So I I just left it openly. I didn't say I must do this. I always believe my destiny must be such that uh wherever I'm supposed to be, I'll go. But that's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:11

You could have chosen anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

I could have chosen I could I could have chosen anywhere. You there was still a prerequisite that you needed to like what how would you apply for that? They would do the applications, everything for you. Yeah. Yeah. They would they would facilitate through United Nations through through through the UNESCO office. They were out the ANC guys could facilitate it. Very good. I could have gone anywhere, basically to Canada I could have gone. I could have gone to I mean all of this is ANC funded. Not not ANC funded, United Nations.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:40

No, but this travel, like getting your parents over and No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:45

Oh, they had to pay themselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:47

And when you were doing this whole trick across countries and stuff, were you carrying a backpack or how did you take clothes with you? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:56

I had a I had a backpack with me, right? Just a backpack. Yeah, yeah, I had a backpack with me.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:59

Doc still carries a backpack till it is big. But all those countries, you you cross in with the cows, you got the backpack. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I always wondered what's in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:11

Amazing. What did you have in the backpack? I said, just had some had some clothes, right? Uh much later on, uh they managed to get uh when my parents came, they got some clothes all the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:21

Toothbrush? Did you carry a toothbrush?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:23

Did you carry a toothbrush plus?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:25

No, seriously.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:26

No, no, I had a toothbrush with me. Wow. You don't need to carry a cell phone charger.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:33

But then how luck now? Like how did you choose? That's far. Lucknow is in India.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

Yeah, yeah. So so so when I got to the when I got to got to uh to to India, right? So so said to me India that uh you know um that you have to spend some time time in India to decide what you want to do. So so then so I got to India at a time where my uh the term had f uh I couldn't enroll for the year, uh, you know, I mean because it was already in uh uh in August and the and the uh university starts in July.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:00

Uh uh in July. So I got into the term. So they said to me, let's say, listen, you gotta you can go wherever you want to. And so my so much so my brother, he studied in a place called uh Udaypur in Rajasthan. Uh right. He did his BSC there. So this he said to me, I mean, why didn't you think of Rajasthan? So I said, no, I mean I'm I'm ready to go anywhere. Uh I mean, uh I was quite adventurous in the world. Because it's no longer Moodli now, you're ready, I guess. Yeah, yeah. So I as you know, I'm always adventurous. So I was ready for this unknown challenge, right? And so I learned the school debut for one year, and then afterwards then they did then apply uh uh where you want to go. So give me a choice to study in Bangalore, in Delhi, in Calcutta. Wait, what did you do for one year then? Uh I did uh I I I did a BSC, I learned Hindi, I learned uh, you know, I mean, uh bit of agriculture and botany, and I did some interesting things I did. Back to the roots. You didn't have fun. Like you didn't do anything fun there.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:55

No, no, no, I I enjoyed it. What that was the fun idea. Yeah, but I love Rajasthan. I cycled beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:02

I saw all of Rajasthan and uh from Jodpur to the deserts and all that, and Jaipur and Ajme. I enjoyed every bit of it. Actually, it's not only academics that you do. No, no, no. It helped me to absorb India. Yeah and uh for the first time in my life, you know, to enter India and I was fascinated with culture, music, traditions. I learned Hindi and you know, and uh the first time you're going to the land of your grandparents. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it felt like you're home. Yeah, and I I really took to it. And people were surprised, you, you know, I mean, how how you took to it. This is 1978. Yeah, yeah. 1978. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, for me, I enjoyed it. I I I I I it was a it was a revelation in my life for me on it for me, going to an unknown area, and uh I love culture, I love tradition, I love learning. And nobody's chasing you, nobody's trying to lock you up, right? No, no, I'm uh I come to that, right? To the two stage, right? So what happened is that when I got to uh uh uh I would say, so there's a guy called a guy called Sykes from uh from the police force security, and he was in uh he was from Vader, and uh there was another guy with him. So he infiltrated the student movement in India and he studied in a place called uh uh one of them studied in Puba in uh Pune Pune, other one studied in Indore. And they k they came as students, but they were part of the government.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:21

Part of the party governor.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:23

Part of the security force.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:24

Oh, like as in as in like the uh people that were trying to fight find you security force. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So they infiltrated.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

Yeah, so they infiltrated the student student movement there. There were spies like spies for the party. The inflated the NC NC office there. In in Delhi, it was the NC office. They they're they're they're right. Twice, twice, this, twice, they ran some room and showed my passports. Sikh. Twice, twice, twice it happened.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:54

Twice. And you don't believe it. I only knew about him when I came back to South Africa. Uh much later, much later. Why did they take your passport? So you can't what's the point of getting it back? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, they're basically making life miserable for your passport, chilling your things. This made your life difficult, basically making your life unbearable. You know, that's what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:15

Okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:16

And how's dental school? Where where and what so so so then they gave me a choice. So eventually eventually they said to me, uh, you know, Mindy Samong said to me, Your brother studied in Lakno, why don't you go study in Lakno? But I wouldn't go to Bangalore, right? This is what I were, but I have to put a party near Bangalore. This was my idea. Well, do you want to take us on that journey now, parallel to all of this? Yeah, right. From the Tsai organization. Yeah. How did you start? How did you get involved with that? And when? Okay, so okay, okay, okay, so let's let's break on this part here. We come back to this journey here, right? So I grew up, we grew up in the Devanai Society. Uh right, where when we were in Grimal Park. So my dad was always very spiritual in his life, but he was not very ritualistic. He didn't like us to do a cavity, for example. He didn't like to do all this uh things happening in his pingo temple, chicken, whatever. Anything ritualistic, he was anti-literatistic. Everything was to be very scientific for him and very spiritual. So he taught us in that way. And all the psalmis that came from the divine life, the Ramakrishna uh society or um um whatever it was. We went to uh and I I was very young. I was I was like, you know, literally, you know, I mean, I was six years old. But for my two brothers, you used to find me like an irritant with them around, so they were older than me. So uh they take me to this uh lectures and even oriental, I could remember these places, right? But you know, I actually fall asleep, but I could remember these things, falling asleep, and remember this thing subconsciously. So we we were in the divine life society, right, from young. Then eventually that the divine life and the psy organization merge in Greenwood Park. And which organization? Yeah, the psych organization, yeah. The both organizations merged in Greenwood Park together. And then, you know, they begin to teach us what we taught in divine life, meditation, yoga, bavika, so that they begin to teach us this sort of thing. That is my first early entry into this organization, right? And and and then uh eventually that, you know, so we were very conscious of this, uh, you know, uh yeah, but we were um we loved divine life because it was it was non-ritualistic. So my dad always said to me, that's the way we should all be grew up with understand religion, but understand the science behind it. I said, Why are you doing it? Uh right, and not so and we attracted divine life and the Southization because it's very universal. And my dad said, Always try to embrace universality. And our neighborhood as well was Muslims, Christians, everybody was very universal. So we grew up in that kind of consciousness. And though my grandfather was very ritualistic when he was alive, but my dad told us don't follow this. Okay, right. He said, just understand what you do. Don't do if you don't understand.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:50

So this I got into this uh universal thinking of the Sadhist organization. So when I was in India in Lakna, so my cousin of mine was engineering, he studied in Chandika. So when I went to visit him once in once in my afternoon, first year to visit him in Chandika, so there was this uh big sigh uh function on a Thursday, and I was uh I was astounded, everybody listened to white and huge crowds, about 100 people in this hall on a Thursday, Thursday uh yeah. What what was a wasn't an awe and wonder? 100 people are so quiet, right? In this hall and having this sort of called uh uh program of devotion, everything, all that. That's my first entry into a big side gathering. Okay. That's the first time.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:32

Right? And then I was fascinated about uh but then I began to really re read about it for the first time when I was in India. Then I then I then I did the full course on uh the youth program on some working on this youth program uh in India uh when I was in Lakna. I was very fortunate uh because he he again was very universal in his thinking. And you know, he was a young monk and uh went to the West and you know at the World Parliament of religion. So I was fascinated with him. Um when when Sataba quoted him, I could relate to all the teachings.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:03

And so this is now, so Yak actually his question has provided some useful in uh context. So Mendin Simang says to you, you can study where you want. Yeah. And you say, I want to go to?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:14

No, no, I I said wherever you think I think I should go, I'll go, I'll accept it. Right. And then they said to me, but you've got a brother in India, and what is and then I said, fine, I'll go to India. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:24

No, but then you said you chose somewhere because you were close to Purapati. The dental school.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:28

Oh, yeah, I want to go to Bangalore.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:30

Oh, so you wanted to go to dental school in Bangalore? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:32

Because it's close to the you know why Bangalore. No. That's what I'm trying to get at. Okay, well, let's talk explain.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:38

Yeah, yeah. Uh Bangalore is the nearest uh town, uh a big, big city that near near Japuta Party. And that is organized. It's the the the uh the Satisababa uh uh uh organization center, the ashtram is there. Isn't that okay? Yeah, yeah, and I know of this, but I want to give context to understand. Yeah, yeah. And Shatis Hebba was born there. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:04

So you wanted to be close to your spiritual yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:07

Because we were orientated already from the divine. So I thought it was a good place to be. And I then I big then I read about Bangalore. It was a garden city and was a very friendly city, and while there was a city of lakes. So something told me uh and I'm gonna give me a choice. I I liked it. So did you go there? No, no. And then no, no, no. Then they told me Manny Simong told me would uh then where Mozim Mula was the ANC head over there. Then they said to me, But but you've got a bought a brother in luck, no, and and he's gonna be studying that he's gonna be finishing off uh uh soon. I mean why don't you go there and help it set up? Then I said, okay, no problem. I I was very easy-spirited about it, I was never fixated uh about something, you know. I mean as you said, you you were leaving it in their hands. Yeah, yeah. I said there's a higher force to steer. I always believed that your destiny must be in that principle. Yeah. And it was your luck now to go there.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:00

Luck then. Yes, yes. Tell us about dental school in India. What's that like? What get a taste of dental school in India, even though you studied in Mauritius.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:06

Yes, yes, I know that. Yeah. Yeah, I I think that's why I I got a very well react uh uh from uh personality perspective. I I you know uh I think I connected up with him, you know, with uh I think one of my best people that I connected up with him uh from um from a mentoring perspective was Yak. Uh, you know, um uh you know when he came and I think because people who studied, I'm not saying with people who don't study other uh um you can say it, huh? But there's a big gulf of people who studied overseas in India and in Mauritius, and the people who studied here.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:42

But so basically what you're saying is the India run places were different to him. Yeah, yeah. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:47

Yeah, yeah, right, because actually because the culture of education and study is you're mainly focused on reverence and respect and very simplicity. Okay. All right, and and you're very communicative and you're almost like uh very respectful in terms of you come across game and your culture, your traditions, your parenthood, your familyhood, everything comes into play as a graduate when you're when you call it for that. It's almost it almost becomes part of your DNA, and you begin to relate this to where you relate to your colleagues and then to relate to your patients. And uh also that because your the levels of education were were higher than year, uh in terms of the volume of of work, right? And so we always uh when I came back when a conference year, it was almost like a refresher course for me, right? Over there, because they would tell us like those volumes of uh archer, for example, you know, your room archer, right? Those maxolo facial uh books, right? Uh as as uh dental graduates, those who post graduate will study that, but they give you finding a student to study, study those kinds of things, right? Over there. So, so but it's a culture that you have in your DNA of foreign graduates of Indian Mauritius, and makes you more humble and more simple and more reverential in every aspect. Relationship with colleagues, relation to your peers, listen to your lecturers, um, in relation to your patients, and you know, uh you go back to your roots as our culture from the Indian perspective, how we how we learn to our grandfather, our our parents, and dental schools teach you that. Right? For example, in Lakno, I could never walk in front of uh uh the second-year student or the third year student or the final year students either walking walking in front of me. I can never overtake them. Why? Right? That's the respect we have. Uh right? Oh, you mean so your seniors? Yes, you can't walk in front of your seniors. You can't walk behind them. Yeah, yeah, behind them. Right? Right? And every lecturer Who told you this? Who teaches you? It was an unwritten rule, you're like no. It's an unwritten rule. And and the app will tell you the lecturers as well. You can never walk in front of your lecturer.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:43

But if it's an unwritten rule, surely you would have made a mistake one day and then somebody would have said, Hey, what are you doing? Or how did you figure that out?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:49

No, no, I I it just happens naturally. Uh the people around you, the colleagues will teach you that. It's a natural process. You know, some somebody would tell you, right, right. If you have no every lecturer, and there is this thing called in the in the in the in the in the nob culture, it it's called adab. So you have to greet your lecturer like this. Right?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:12

The listeners would tell us what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so basically you you would you would you would put your head down and you take your hand and you would far from your forehead and you would relate to the lecturer's heart. That's how you greet a lecturer. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you never would walk in front of a lecturer. No chance you've got. And you have to sit in your class. Nobody can go into the classroom. The yak will tell you that well uh right uh after the lecturer enters. You can't enter.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:38

Oh, okay, so you can't come in late. You can't come in late. You can't come in late.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:41

You've got no chance of coming late. You've got no chance. Uh and and the students, we couldn't wear, you only were allowed to wear a a white shirt, right? Uh right, uh, or a or a or a or a black or or a grey pants and a black or brown shoes.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:57

And any other foreigners there? Were you the only foreigners?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:01

No, no, no. Lakna had lots of foreign all over the world. In your class? Yeah, all over the world. So then, you know, a class, you know, there was one from Nepal, there was one from West Indies, uh, there was one from the Middle East, but not many. But we thought all of India there's India, India was a country of confluence of they took students from all over the world. You know, India's even now they still do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:19

Yeah, but I'm saying your class, and were you the only South African?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:21

Uh yeah, I was only I was the only only South African, only South African. And how many years is the degree there? Uh five and a half years. Five and a half. Yeah. Was it difficult? Uh yeah, because the standards were so high and the competition, and Yak will tell you this amongst the students. I mean, they're very competitive. And you, I mean, you you have to just do you and Yak, you know, know that. There's no choice, but you have to rise to the standard. Did you fail anything? What's it? Yeah, in my in my first year I got sick in my uh when I when I had amiobiosis. So so on on pharmacology. So I I I I I got sick, so I I I couldn't uh finish my exam, my practical. And you got no chance, whether you're sick or not, they make they put you for six months that you must go and then you entered the following year, but you must finish that other other course. And did you make friends? Oh, yeah, lots of friends. I loved India. I up to now. I we we've got alumini, we've we've got friends together, and uh, you know, I mean I learned the language and the culture. From your dental school. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And was it only was it only men? No, no, no. Both both men actually.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:22

The stories Yak and them used to tell us like you know, you can't speak to spot-on.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:26

Absolutely, absolutely spot on, spot on. You couldn't speak to women. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You can you can't do that. You can't socialize. What you know?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:33

Not cosmic woman, come on.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:35

But but if you go, you go as a group, you go as a groom, but you can't go like as Yaku go and date his classmate. Yeah, you can't no class beauty. You can't you can't do that. Uh, you know, I mean you know it's not known to do that. Yeah, but you go as a group together to have coffee together, you know, something like that. So there's no fun in university then in India.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:53

Uh what do you guys do for fun?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:55

No, no, you play sports, play fun, play music, play whatever you then they have this festival, they have this face, you know, no, they have this in a group, Pudima, they'll have these things, you know, they have this different festival. Every quarter, there's something going on, as you know that. Something, something's going on somewhere along the line.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:10

Yeah, they're very cultural.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:10

They're very cultural. Oh, yeah, lots of things happening. But did you get to see your parents? Yeah. Uh they came to visit me India, India once, once. Once. The whole time you're staying in India, you don't get to go back to the I couldn't come back to Zahraga. Oh, so you didn't go to the house. I I couldn't come back. Wow, five hours. Yeah, I couldn't. I had to do my internship in India, I had to wait for the uh everything to settle down there, then I came back. So it was like exile. And uh, how do you communicate with patients at the time? I know I learned Indie. I learned Hindi. So you can speak Hindi fluently. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now not as much as I used to. But like I said, if you put me in the situation, I go to India, I can talk. Wow. If I'm there for a few days, I can quickly listen to it. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:47

But but Hindi wasn't the thing you you that was spoken in your home.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:50

No, no, no, never, never. Never. You learnt there. You learnt it there when you learn the India. Yeah, you have to speak with patience. It's mandatory to learn Hindi. Before I forget, you know, you said you're into you're very into English and stuff, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:00

Yeah. There's a podcast called the History of English Podcast. Oh, lovely. I must I'll share you the link with you. Yeah. It's really, really cool. It starts from like old English and tells you how the language developed. You'll you'll love it. I'll I'll send it to you. Okay, so you do your internship there it's one year. Yeah. And then what happens?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:19

Yeah. Then and which will which will which they'd give me a signal to come back home. So so if I didn't. Who has to give you a signal? Uh the ANZ guys. Uh whether you can come back home or you can't. So I was going to go to Ireland to study uh uh masters and masters in community dentistry. So my dean, uh Professor Chien Chaola, uh, he was an international renowned dean, and he lectured on the whole world. And he picks up the phone, he tells you, take the student, you have to take the students. So most of the foreign students all studied uh all over the world. So he so he wanted me to go to Ireland because community dentistry was very new at that time. Comdent, yeah, this is 1980 uh 1986 it was, right? Yeah, so so he so he wanted me to go to uh study in Cork. While you're waiting, so Cork or Ireland, while you're waiting for mama to send you a signal from home or the ANC.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:05

Yeah, what happened?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, then I worked part-time at the hospital in Lucknow. Yeah, yeah, I was there.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:12

But so you didn't go to Ireland, you didn't end up going to Ireland?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:15

No, no. I was I wasn't I wasn't going to Ireland. I I was good my papers, everything was done, my scholarships, my funding, everything was go to Ireland. And then the NC guy said I could come back home. Okay. Uh right, come come come I'll come back to South Africa. 1980? Uh 86, right? I came back to South Africa was a big epic episode because they miscalculated that. What? Uh my coming back home.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:35

Explain?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:36

Yeah, and that's so what happened. The NC said that everything is everything because at that time uh the dialogue was taking place. If you remember history, the the ANC and the nationalist government uh through the uh through the business with Oppenheimers involved, they had this uh big in Daba in Zambia and in Livingston uh that is taking place. So they thought that everything everything was clear. Uh right, the first dialogue. opened up at that time. So they thought that they can come back home. So people like myself came home. But when we came home, they allowed us to come back home, but after thick, after after I'm not not even three months, right? So they decided to decide to lock me out. Oh, so you did get locked up. How the lockup did happen, right? So what happened? So when I came back home, so they thought they then the guy said no, you'll be fine. You've been back to the system and everything will be clear. But they miscalculated it over there, right? So it is big that they said to me, then they wanted to smoke me out of the country again, right? And they couldn't smoke me out of the country because already I was they were I was 24 by seven under under surveillance. Surveillance, right? So in the Sierra SWAT, you know Sierra SWAT in in uh in Durban, right? Sierra SWAT is where the um uh with the old driving you know the old drive in is okay uh in Durban North like by town uh town by Argyle Road and uh dagging across is Sierra SWAT Sierra SWAT so um Sier SWAT is the police station okay uh it's it's a high level police station uh with these where the uh intelligence is there right so uh Zimbabwe used to have what they call the old at the Silas Scouts Silus Scouts were equivalent to um a security branch where what you call the S the uh security branch the the SB people security branch so they have the equivalent of the Sila Scouts so Sila Scouts and uh the security branch were virtually one and one uh in the Zambian border Zimbabwe Swaziland all together okay so the Sila Scout again the guy called Alexander he he interviewed me interviewed you for what we're coming to that right so so he they decided to um to to to arrest me and to take to a SWAT so and um so then we used uh some of the influence within the underground structure uh so uh you know so the ANC also also infiltrated the security branch also right uh over there right so so so the so the interview so the guy said listen you don't uh don't uh don't interview this guy interview him but you have to let him out every day take him in let him out every day that he had to go home because he wasn't involved in uh in quota seaswear he wasn't involved in this so that so they were not convinced by what this guy was saying from the security branch. Right um so uh the that guy was working on a on a dual property he worked for the ANCA and worked for the security branch okay you know this is how it was so um I saw I was there on the 11th floor right a few times they threatened to drop me on the 11th floor uh right you mean like push over yeah push me over and yeah you remember I'm uh Timol Timol fell on the they reopened the inquest yeah yeah from John Foster right so then I had this kind of vision of Timol you know you know Timol was a dentist right okay right uh fell right so I had this vision of another dentist falling on the thing right and the first time I felt my life was like you know in danger yeah it was in danger the first time I felt so so I was that I was there I was there for there for 14 days every day just being interviewed yeah interviewed yeah going to the finest of detail what were they gonna what were they trying to get from this about the underground movement where am I in the underground movement where the uh the structures involved do they torture you uh no no no no they virtually torture you by your mental strength they virtually almost demoralize you by like uh uh uh interrogating you they'll keep you there with no food uh for 14 hours uh right um that you're not not not even water to drink yeah right uh literally you know I mean uh over there yeah and they tell you that if we if you speak about it you're gonna be in trouble they tell you openly crazy so what happens after the first day right 14 days there 14 days then they then they they let me go but uh but uh but I but I wasn't I wasn't surveillance for for five five years how do you know uh because it was just um uh the guy from the uh the ANC guys within the branch uh told me just just be out of the circuit to don't contact any of the guys you knew so aren't you just like living your life for five years just thinking there's somebody watching over here yeah all the time all the time all the time and what do you do so you get back from India after you get arrested yeah then you these two weeks of interrogation yeah but are you then practicing or no no no then I go to Western Cape I I go back to Western Cape Cape over there and I uh then they then want me to redo the internship there and do the board exam in Western Cape. Yeah that's what I wanted to find out was a conversion exam to register yeah yeah I did I did at Western Cape so so I did I did something very clever at Western Cape. So I so so so I so I enrolled for a postgraduate program in the autumn periodon text and I enrolled for the for the examination at the same time. So I did two things together.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:40

So you had to do an exam just to explain to the listeners and viewers that don't know you had to do an exam to show the South African regulator that you are equivalently trained and skilled and all that you have to write and study. Yes, yes and how long does that take a year it takes a whole year.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:58

So even though you've gone to luck now you still come back for a year yeah but so so I so I I I so I decided to enroll for the for the top automation period at the same time. So I use it one year in Cape Town and I did that.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:08

So you didn't waste a year but yeah but then you pass both exams and then you start practicing. Yes. What year is this?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:13

Yeah yeah yeah then uh no what happen no no what happened then I did my then I had to do another internship oh uh uh uh after that uh right yeah they would you you do one year of of of public service so you have to give public service and then I did the circuit in Soweto Circuit Soweto this is a long time before you can start practicing in South Africa yes yes yes so you got a paid job yeah yeah yeah yeah and how I did the old circuit uh the Joburg Gen the old Joburg Gen uh Barragon Hospital then the clinics in Soweto which year is this it was uh 1889 but but but but it was fantastic because uh what I learned uh because I worked with with uh Yusuf Bamji and company and uh uh Afiskola and uh the those guys I worked so I learned a lot you know in terms of uh work practical and then I got more involved with Ruben Scheer Ruben Scheer was involved in the AIDS program uh Prof. Rubenscheer he was in at Witz University he was about the first guys at AIDS program so I did the first uh first the first study with him 120 patients sampling with him when when I was at uh at uh Joburg Gen. Okay in your internship yeah yeah yeah yeah what happens next yeah no no that was just after my internship yeah I did one year did six months extra or almost eight months extra yeah no I did by choice I did it because I was got got involved with Ruben Share and joined that program with him. Do you get paid for internship? Yeah yeah yeah yeah this is the first time you're earning money in your life yeah and who do you send the money to what do you do with it Can you remember your first paycheck? Yeah yeah I don't remember after now what did you do? Yeah yeah so the first paycheck I think the first thing I did I I I think I I bought some something for my mom and dad I think the first thing that I did. Can you remember what? Yeah right and um so uh so I I bought a watch for my dad and I bought my mum um I think I bought a bottle watches yeah watches was it good money those days no no no no no no it was 2400 eight hundred yeah but that's 1988 uh 19 uh yeah yeah yeah 8089 yes 200 nothing uh I I don't know what is what's 2000 worth in those days yeah it was equivalent it was equivalent to today's 60,000 Rand oh that's not bad wow that's actually okay yeah yeah yeah so it's good money yeah your first job and one thing I was I was always prudent about saving so you give me two thousand hand I'll save you I'll save you always save uh so from young I'll I always save money from my three brothers I had the most money even though because you were I always save you knew how to save and yeah yeah yeah and what do you do after in that one and a half years of internship what happened so so I wanted to I wanted to do a postgraduate uh right so anyway I was do a postgraduate I went to I went to VITS uh if the interviews postgraduate then I did my patron at the board exam uh right I did uh at the College of Medicine what's that exam so you know you know when you specialize you do you you you do a college of medicine exams uh anatomy physiology and all that C MSA what did you want to specialize in yeah yeah yeah so I so I want to do uh auto medicine and uh period I thought I'd do postodontic after I thought I'd do either one of them why I always interested in automatic and periodonics also because my because I did diploma in automatic and period in uh Western Cape So I thought I thought I'd carry on and I specialize in that uh I'll I'll I'll I will do that. Anyway so what happened so I want to do uh the prosodontic uh then the postodontic relationship came out first then the one in Western Cape So I go after the interview over there to the postonic relationship then I get then I get accepted that the problem happened there then uh Dr. Adam Mormon in Durban uh had an accident. So my friend uh Rad Somaro the one he was in school with me and we went for the same speech speech lesson to Rajithu in terms of the stamina class with him right so um then he phoned me and said listen you know what you I know you accepted the post registration but we got an issue here and one of the senior dentists in in Durban accidentally lost his three girls and he had his back and he can he can't work for six months. Right? And he says that you know Durban is not a very sharing community and he says somebody needs to help and assist and the only person I reach out to you to you to help. So I leave my registration and thinking I'll get back into it and I I can't I can't come to Durban. And I and I will private practice. Yeah so I don't think private practice I told myself I don't need private practice somebody needs to teach me. Right so my friend Ratsamore teaches me about private practice what to do and all those kinds of things and my first induction into private practice. But how are you going to help? What help were you providing treatment of patients? Oh yeah taking over the practice yeah yeah yeah yeah you had one silver and one in one in Pinetown right to Durban. Yeah yeah yeah so I was thrown into the pr thrown into the deep and literally unfortunately my friend Ratsumaro he helped me to meander meander my way through and your parents did they did they come live with you or no no no no they they were in Greenwood Park.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:59

Yeah yeah and then um then what happened when I finished that right then I then I wanted to get into Pedio and Orun Med at uh at Witz University and then then I couldn't get back into President they gave it to uh Katrada I said uh what's the near Cathry one of them in Western Cape They gave it to one of the guys there the post then losses that is he still alive now I I'm not sure right so they want they gave the post somebody else in Cape Town then there was a post at Wits came on uh then then then then I then then I came to Janiceburg uh right uh over there for what uh for auto medicine period right and then I met Mike Mike Rudolph from the Department of Common Community so Mike said to me listen yeah you know but you get into the circuit if you don't get into our automated period and he said uh and I like your personality and he said we're starting this comedian get into comedy anyway so I so I so I get into um the automated and part-time you know and I got back into the old Job gen because the whole Illum hospital was I got into that circuit there and the thinking that I get into automated period anyway so they so they give you a test for all the of all the guys who applied and tests there. So John Lemmer was the uh was the head of the head at that time. So I called him one of my tests 94% right so so John Lemmer said that's not possible not possible if anybody in uh for your private post and this random test I said send your person something does not sound right. Anyway so you so they were making my life a bit uh uncomfortable and difficult about uh said telling me you can get into you can't get into and then the point is somebody said no you wait for six months you get into the next one then I realized something is funny and funny and not then somebody said to him listen yeah why are you getting frustrated with yourself and upset that the the spring needs a family dentist they need to maybe do children dentists go to springs I I didn't know where Springs was yeah so I I I so the Southization network so one Siegel said to sit there he had a flower shop in town in Springs and then said said uh come come to Spring I'll show you the shop and you can open up surgery there they landed in Springs. Springs when is this what which which year?

SPEAKER_03 1:40:05

1990 Wow we've been there long and when do you when do you meet um I'll I'll tell you why I'm gonna ask this question before I even ask the question is Andha no no the first time the first time that I I think I'd ever seen you I don't think you knew of me at the time but you were giving a speech at uh Dr. Raven Kisten's wedding so I'm I'm assuming that you are known to the family of the Kisten. Yeah when do you meet meet Dr Tony Kisten?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:35

Yeah yeah so so when I came when I came to Springs in 1990. Yeah yeah so I knew about you through Yakshin. Right. So Yakshyan Yakshin told me you're gonna be at the wedding yes yes yes yes so this is how I knew that uh I knew of you through through this but so when you moved to Springs in 1990 you know nobody no no and how do you have to infiltrate that community through the through the that's a good one yeah yeah it's through salmonization okay so I joined the science center then I met Tony Kirston through the salonization and that's how we became friends. And then um then um lots of his patients became my patients that because he started practice long before me. I think it was in 1880 he started springs. Right and I came there in 1990. So you you find found it easy to assimilate into the Springs community through religious yeah yeah through the salonization and also that through through the through the Muslim community so the same thing that Muslim Muslim became those are the Muslim Dennis in Springs of Jewa not so Muslim patient became a patient because I because I should play bridge you see so the Muslim Muslim community used to play bridge. Okay and is this a thing is this a thing that in Springs it was it was a thing in Springs play bridge. As a card game card game play bridge right so so so I I learned to play bridge years ago and then I relearned it then Dr. Lehay um the Dr. Adam's friend so was there so he told me to come uh come me join the bridge club so every every Friday night uh bridge chat at seven o'clock the the guy didn't know where time to finish so you used to go play bridge on Friday night Friday night you finished at two in the morning you alone oh wow yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah sure yeah play bridge and then uh so two in the morning you're sure you're playing bridge are you sure oh and the problem with card plays and chess plays right I play chess but I stopped playing cunny and thaw and chess and all because the guys don't know when they went to stop right like like like the golfers golfers don't know when they went to stop right there's the danger of getting into the circus with people right so I stopped playing bridge and chess and all because guys get upset you you know you you know you know why are you stopping to play and now to Yak's question? Yeah the when did you meet and disanta how did you meet so so 189 right so what happened uh 189 yeah 189 so uh the so doctor Singh goes to India so I was happy not not to get married and all that like like uh like yak right right hike hiking and traveling and doing all this weird things right I was a bit like that so I could relate to him yeah right although I'm in this free spirit right yeah and uh no I'm not in the world worrying right now about anything and also yak was sent to uh on exile yeah a lot in common yeah Robin Mauritius right definitely definitely right right so anyway so yeah he said so he went to India right or uh when he went to India for India and then uh he went for the India at an interview with Swami with with with Baba Baba interview so Baba Baba told him listen yeah you you guys you got a certain person that in the South organization you want him to involve in in uh the in to do some official work in the sub organization but he can't get involved in official organization if he's not married not stable right so but who was Dr. Singh Singh Rasing was the head in the Southization in South at the that that that time right so Rasing uh comes come to the airport and he and he this was in uh 88 uh right like that 88 i i just came back now uh 189 into this into the wits thing i was uh uh working in the into the uh circle and then he then he phones me back from the airport right and to say that uh right he's come back from from the afterm then he wants to meet me but how did you know that swami was talking about you uh he he he said to me oh let's hear the story let's hear the story yeah yeah so so he said to me that swami said to him that there's a certain person that you must go back to Africa and and tell him that he must get married he must phone his mother and tell his mother find a girlfriend so so so I was la I was laughing right like he's laughing I thought I thought this was a joke right he said he he said to me no it's not a joke he said you must do it now maybe Dr. Singh uh your mom didn't didn't speak to Dr. Singh tell this uh so words anyway so so so Dr. Singh said no you can't take a joke you must phone your mother now yeah I said not yeah I'll phone her I'll phone her you know the uh during the week he said he said no I got the instruction yeah he said with somebody's instruction you must do it the same time right so I go I phone my mom the same my mom the mom gets shocked yeah right sudden I'm getting I want to get married yeah right and then through the family situation that my um my dad's brother's um wife that uh that the one the the the one who the one who's the dentist yeah so his wife's um uh family so Anisanta's um uh uh father and uh uh her mother are cousins okay and so so so the family network so it was arranged yeah yeah they arranged marriage yeah yeah and uh so sort of divine arrangement just said the ANC didn't know but uh but did your sign an ANC okay now anyway that's cool so you get married in 1990 or 1980 yeah 1990 okay very cool yeah yeah yeah 3rd of February yeah and you've been in private practice ever since yeah yeah in the 1990s yeah july 1990 could go go to Punima Day wow in the in the springs community from the late 80s yeah yeah for the first 18 months springs I was dentist I'm 26 in Springs sure yeah uh yeah yeah there were so too too manists in Springs right and you tend to it was it was a white community and there was only uh three of color the Mukafe then Chiwa then I was the third one to enter and right so I came there uh so everybody said to me so I so I went to I went to Parkton's clinic so I went if he was totally white there was never a person of colour uh ever uh entered the theatre so so I said to them I want to do theatre work right for children because I for the first 18 months everybody's doing a dozen nobody's doing children so I see all the children of the town in springs so so the guy said to me what's the guy how come this guy is so busy right how come this guy in six six months and people say in Parkland he's so busy and he's seeing so many people and all that right so everybody was curious to know can I say I'm only seeing children right because I I was taking those days it takes about 10 children to be to theatre. So people say how come suddenly now the new kid of the block you're taking me out to theater right and furthermore I blocked Buster Mm-Trader didn't want to allow me in theater so I said I said give me a reason why you want to allow meat they said I'm gonna go tell children to Benoni. I said no the people live in springs the right they're coming from my activist background and uh and uh so I put everything writing to them eventually they had to concede.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:06

Okay, okay so I mean you're still because it again you've reminded us that it's still a party at times in 1990.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:15

In 1990 and uh but now it's what 30 years later and uh you still are you still there or no no no I I have uh exited Springs now and my and and I've exited private practice now officially okay and this is my last few days in private practice in Springs over there right over there. Like literally now is yeah yeah yeah yeah literally this month is my last time of private practice officially as as a as a private practitioner. We're in February 2026 yes this this is going to be released yeah yeah yeah so so uh uh last year so uh two years ago I join I I I joined a consultancy on on wellness development which I told you about so they they're a global consultants agency uh consisting of people who are in the wellness field but they're not medical people and so they got they got uh they got exposure internationally in Belgium and Netherlands and then in then in South Africa. What are they called? Uh healing leaf okay yeah yeah so it's a group of charter accountants, economists, host of business but they have the interest in health space in integrated medicine. So uh so I so I worked with them now on a project for four years with them or developing what they call the wellness concept on how to bring integrated processes because always interested in integrated health the I could tell you that that is always my forte and during uh just pre-COVID I did a course on uh the Academy of Autosystemic health the American course I did on on autosystemic so that gave me a a um a threshold in terms of a plat a platform to uh to forage into the into the international fraternity of connectivity okay so it all comes it like circles back to Comdet which was what you were initially yes yes yes yes so so the so the wellness centers about developing wellness how we get people to heal yourself instead of lying totally allopathic but using allopathic sciences in terms of diagnostics whether it's blood tests whether it's x-rays uh so you're not gonna do dentistry anymore yeah yeah yeah are you not doing dentistry anymore no no no no I'm gonna do developing on wellness centers but how do they get people to heal? Where? So we they've got a project 50 global centers and 50 South African centers.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:16

Oh so you're gonna do it in South Africa?

SPEAKER_01 1:49:18

Yeah yeah yeah so initially they wanted to do it purely uh internationally but then uh they but they overseas investors uh found that uh uh from a European perspective because they've got collaboration with overseas market money and local market overseas people feel that they're not getting enough returns on the European investments because of the the markets are down in Europe. So they felt that the South African market is ripe for it. Uh health isn't problems Africa NHS is you know is is not going to work um you know if you look at the trajectory of well wellness warehouse wellness warehouse is buying every independent health store in the country okay uh right at the moment uh right and wellness for the whole world in South Africa is becoming A big thing about healing, how to bring about uh whether it's moringa, whether it's uh cannabides, and host of natural things, whether it's echinacea, all these kinds of things. And you know that that uh the Native has launched a medical range now with uh with nappi codes now, right? In terms of integrated medicine. So everything is moving towards integrated medicine. So now we open integrated wellness centers where there'll be a medical doctor, um uh IV bar, pathological lab, dentist, uh sponsored rehabilitation, uh, integrated dispensary. And what's your role going to be in all of that? Yeah, yeah. So I'm consulting with my friend of mine, uh Vinesh Modri. He's he's a family medicine specialist. So he and I, we got we knew each other for, I don't know whether Yak met him previously. Uh you maybe heard of him. So he practiced in midrance. So he and I, we uh we helped patients together to heal for many, many years. Uh all the so-called off-the-beaten track patients who cannot get healed normally by our chronic medication. For example, like uh if you have chronic back pains or medication, you cannot be on cataphragm for life. So, how do we integrate you with a chiropractor, with a bit of uh natural pain medication, all that together? So he and I worked on many, many patients integratively, but using also some specialist uh interventions as required. So we have this good cynicism together. So when I told him about this project together, so we've come together now to consult full-term on through healing leave and this global entity uh to drive wellness centers in South Africa. So we obviously want to get want to get it regulated uh through SAPRA, through the government, and to bring about uh this concept in South Africa to make health more accessible to population. Okay, so you're not gonna be doing any patient-phasing work? Uh use. Yeah, yeah, only on a consultancy, but not per se. For example, that uh in Briffer View, for example, that if Yak wants to drive into a wellness center, how can I be with Yak here? Facilitated. Yeah, facilitated this whole thing like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:52

Okay. Yak, when you're getting report. What was it like having Yak as a mentee and uh as an employee? Well you were an employee, but contractor.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:01

How did that happen? Where did you go and work, Yak? Uh I was in uh Springs. Springs and Santin. And Santon.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:06

Yeah. So you should remember tying up to my story of my episode when I got frustrated with government and Pumalanga, uh, Doc was offering me a space.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:15

I think you offered it to me for some time, and then eventually I pulled the trigger with it and I came here and it was between Springs and Santon, and I Googled where's a place to stay between Springs and Santin. It said Breck Pen or Boxburg. And I thought, oh, okay, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:31

And then my uncle told me, no, you do a bit more research, and that's when I ended up in bed with you.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:36

But you travel from here to Springs, it was against traffic.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:39

Yeah, yeah, and then then Santon uh was Yak was very good in surgery.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:43

So you avoid oh, you I thought you were gonna avoid the question there. How how was Yak uh?

SPEAKER_01 1:52:48

Oh you he was excellent. I mean, and then the biggest trajectory in Yak's career was uh doing the course with uh on implantology, and that changed his whole uh demeanor and his I think he became very responsible after that.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:02

What's this what's his name? Um there was a transition. Prof. Fan Zer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh Andre Andre Fanzeel. Andre Fan Zer. And and Andre Lovjak. He used to be at Tucs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andre Andre and Andre uh Love Yak, I think. How did you know this? Uh when Andre used to come here, Yak to pick him up and do conferences and everything. Yak used to be the person uh there for him all the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:25

Now now my question at Yak, what was it like working for Dr. Red here?

SPEAKER_01 1:53:28

Yeah, I think uh I owe a lot to Dr.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:30

Red, like whatever you see here at the practice. I mean, you know there's there's the word you like to use, which is synergism. Yes, synergism, synergistic. And it's not just dentistry, it's uh it's everything how a patient feels when they walk through the door.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:45

I saw light in the morning, I go and do artient for um for kinesha with my agribati there in the morning. But it's all practices I learned uh through you. So it's not just the dentistry part of it, it's very holistic. So yeah, when I said when I saw the lavender here and he said and spring the lavender going all over the place. And you know, you know, and so this is why it's part of healing, you know, and uh all those things, you know. And also Yak was very adaptable to the integrated medicine concept, you know, and he was very he was very open-minded. I think that was a big, big thing. I think his open-mindedness was a big factor, I think. You know. Okay, so you'd employ him again if you if you had a choice. Maybe he'll employ me.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:28

That'd be the adventure consultant. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what a fascinating story, don't. Yeah. Well, we're not I I do one more thing I wanted to ask before Yash ties up is I mean, eventually you superseded, succeeded. Dr.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:42

Singh and the Psy organization, you became president of the C. Yeah. So so what happened? So I after I got married, right? So this is this is what so so Baba had said that before you give me a post of responsibility and organization of leadership, you must be married. Why? I don't know why. So I became the uh uh the uh the uh the uh the head of the uh the Gauteng region of the coordinate committee for a year and a half. Then I became the national server convener for the country. So I I I I took um what's server? Uh server uh service the community. So something I did very interesting there, I took the um the organization from a service of convenience to a service of need. So I changed them from merely feeding to become uh how to teach them to fish, how to teach and empower them on mind, body, soul, and how to teach them from uh recycling, agriculture. Who's the dem?

SPEAKER_03 1:55:33

Who's the dem?

SPEAKER_01 1:55:33

Uh the the organization. Uh we have we are side we had we had 122 size centers in the country.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:38

Uh so I traveled the whole country from Matuboto to Port Chepson, Island, Cape Town, every corner of the country I traveled with a server convener. Then uh then our then uh there was a server convener there uh for four years, and then I became the national national president of the country in in 2000, 2006. Then I took over from Dr. Singh as the national president, and then the national president as well, and uh and um then Jack could know from his parents, everybody, his aunt from your aunt and all together, right? So I met everybody from Peter Marisburg to wherever it may be, and to Sabita, everywhere, and the whole country. So I was um the thing is that what I grounded from my early childhood from divine life and salmonization, and also learned in dental school of purely respect and servitude, it carried forth into the salmonization and from the salonization teaching into practice. I think Yak and I got in well as well in terms of even now uh with the Gauteng South, our relationships it just flows together in terms of what we do, how we do things based on human values and spirituality.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:42

Yeah, I mean I get the sense that community and and um service is a big thing in your life from childhood. Yes, yes, yes. Whether it be in the political spectrum or in the spiritual sphere. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:58

Um community and service plays a big role in your life. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my dad, uh, you know, when he took over the shop in Brighton, so there was a very disadvantaged community there. And so my dad's uh brother-in-law used to work there. And so dad always said you must give people a chance to live. And he always said we must give people accounts and credit. So we had about 300 people creditors uh every month, uh give them groceries and every month they'll pay a certain time. So he taught us that in life you must serve and you must give and you must share, and you must trust people. Uh, right, and he said to you, and you must give people a chance. That's why I always love to mentor people. I love to take them, you know. And even now, you know, I've got some of the some of the young witch graduates, and uh, some of the older graduates tell me that, you know, they they are they have literally chased some of those young graduates out of the practice, say that, and you and you don't know anything, and you must go and learn and then come back, come back and work for me. So I saw some of them now, I've taken them and I'm now wing, I'm teaching them, I'm giving them confidence to know that they can do things. I'm uh and I'm like on Wednesday, I've taken two of them to theater just to show them that you can do this thing. Don't tell you you can't do it. Okay. Right? How do you build confidence? To know that we were dead once upon a time in a first-year student, not necessarily a final-year student. They're teaching them as in first year. I believe people in life must give them a chance. I believe that every scene dentist must mentor other graduates. Doc.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:21

Forgive me for going off topic, but when you were telling the story about your dad having lots of creditors' accounts, just got me thinking of dentistry and like the career. Was it good money? Is it good money as a dentist in private practice?

SPEAKER_01 1:58:33

Uh, I think I think it was it was exceptional at one point, one point in time. Uh talking to my senior practitioners who were in the 80s. And uh I don't know, I don't know whether you know the story that from uh 1972 till 1987, uh the dentistry was the top earners in the country. We were in the top nine.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:53

I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Up to up to 87. 87 to 94, we were in the top 20. Right? And I I'm I'm not sure, I'm not sure the test uh uh after that. So at least you made it into the top 20 at one stage in your life. Uh for for three years. Uh for three years. Right. So the problems that did um problems that I think then you could still still make a lot of money. I still but you can't make money as fast as you did as you did 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think yes, by God's grace, I think he brought you to Betterview. I believe it's divine intervention uh to sell the community better view. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Betterview is an older community, and you find that they trust you more and and they value you more. And that's my experience with older communities, like in Springs as well. Springs, you know, we've got a huge uh patient bill, 25,000 patients left there. Uh you know, I mean one of the largest practice bases of patients. When they did a study at the practice, uh a friend of mine, mine actually in 2023, uh, we had a retention base of 78%. Uh right. Now that you mentioned this, so if you're retiring, what happens to your practice? So uh I I a corporate has bought it over. Uh good or bad, but next time if I have a practice, I'll never sell it to a corporate again. Okay. I always sell it to a fellow colleague uh or dentist because corporates are very uh they they they want quick money turnover quickly and they don't realize that yeah for the long haul. But can you tell us more about this?

SPEAKER_03 2:00:22

Because uh you're in a unique position of having lived this whole career, yeah. Now you're about to sell. Yeah. And I asked this question of one of our guests, so I mentioned it in one of our previous shows, that you work 30, 40 years to get to this, and then it all just ends in you having to sell your practice for like a figure.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:38

Like, how do you quantify what that whole thing is worth? You can't quantify it. You can't quantify. Uh right, I I sold my practice for for f the building, which has got business rights in Springs. And uh, you know, you may know may or may not know this. Springs is going through a bit of an uh upscale revolution in terms of the economy of Springs. Okay. And because the Chinese have invested one billion Rand in a steel mill, just outside Springs, right? And outside and uh PG Glass has invested a billion Rand in the last five years. In terms of a lot of good things are happening in terms of uh right. So I so I sold it virtually at a normal cost when I valued uh the practice. So I think I was a bit of a hurry. Uh intercare and uh and NHC wanted to come to Springs and they wanted to take over the world practices. So I so the corporate I sold it to is by accident. They were helping me to separate out the books between Santin and Springs, and because Intercare and NHC wanted to look at it separately, got their accountants into evaluation into three entities, the building, the springs, which has got business rights, the practice and Santin separately. And then these corporate guys said to me, it's near, they are they are keen about it, and will you allow us to look at the practice and give us terms to pay? So I didn't look at the money stage, so I just said I said I just said yes. I don't dare I didn't even uh you know, because I just felt because I knew them. And uh but in that respect I felt that I should sell it to a practice, a practitioner who's got a vested interest in the patients. Uh right. Uh you know, especially uh Springs it's got you know it's an older practice and but you need somebody as the acquiring know that uh spring only thing is out of the way. Aren't they gonna miss you? Yeah, it's yeah, yeah, it's built up relationships over years. Yeah, yeah, because you know, if I wanted my tire to fix, I found the guy to pick up the cuff. The dog knows the guy. Right? You want my laundry to be fixed, pick up my laundry, right? That's how it is in these smaller towns. Yeah. Everybody knows you. So when you go shopping, people know that I do. I found the mic guy, I said I want the paint delivery home, right? They said pay him later. You know, I mean, that's how you know, you know, small towns, right? You know, you know, uh this is how how we tease. But do you feel shortchange now that you've sold it for that amount? No, no, I uh for me it wasn't with the money. I'm not doing concept with the money. I just feel it's that the patient care, I'm I think is it's an issue. I think Yak would know that from a family practice like Befford View. I think it's a family practice here. I'm almost certain it is.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:04

But what so what advice would you give to like young dentists who who are the practice on the other side of the city of the city?

SPEAKER_01 2:03:08

Yeah, yeah, but but but uh I said this at the uh when Prof. Garage was there, I think with you were there at the uh conversation we had at the Mildrose clinic. You're not there. So I said to them that I believe that practitioners need to plan from day one then to practice when you're gonna exit.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:25

From the first day of starting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:27

If I were to give advice to somebody and s and start then, right? There's definitely and I believe as well that you need to induct practitioners from day one in uh every three years you need to bring one practitioner into your practice.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:39

Why?

SPEAKER_01 2:03:40

Right? Because you because you grow there's a there there's a there's a formula that every three years you tend to grow three types.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:47

Right? That's what's happening.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:49

But it is like for a succession planning, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:03:50

Succession planning. So you bring one new dentist each time. But also you also that uh I learned this from my uh from my colleagues in the UK, that you bring in specialists from from day one into the practice. Multidisciplinary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're running multipli from day one. If I would give anybody advice, I would say definitely you're bringing endodontists to do endodontics, right? The orthodontists only do orthodontists, right? And but how do you manage the situation? Like Yak, for example, uh is is is is he's trying running a multi-bilitary practice. How do you manage that? That's the critical having a conversation with the uh specialist practices, having a conversation with your patients, why are we doing this? What's the reason? We want the best for the patients, I would do this, right? But definitely I would plan an exit strategy from day one, right? Uh definitely. And you see, um, the UK's got a brilliant model. Uh right here, right? I worked temporary in the UK some years ago. Uh I did a locum there. So the UK guys have got a practice manager and they've got practitioners who are part of the system. So, like for example, let's say he quantifies this practice now worth 10 million, for example, right? So he's got practitioner number one. There's a book, you can see it openly, right? That practice is worth 10 million, right? I'm I'm getting you into the practice here. I'm asking you, right? You pay a sum of royalty as a commitment to the practice. So let's say you pay 200,000. That means you've got a vested interest. And the balance of money I'm asking you to pay out of your earnings. Right? So you you so give me a chance to pay off the practice, but you've got a vested interest from day one. I would advise to you. Tenders in Africa, unfortunately, they're not good at sharing. The yakwa yak will tell you that in private practice. Right? We don't see the collegianism, you know, amongst our our collegians of sharing and caring, realizing that we're here altogether for the long haul. Yeah, well, maybe it's because they just don't get exposed to this kind of conversation. Or what do you think is no absolutely. Uh you see, communication is a big breakdown, uh, right? I find that in amongst colleagues and being openness and having the conversation. I think that uh as a GPL, for example, uh right, uh we we figured the uh big role. You mean Sada? Uh no, no, no, DPL, the GPL per se. Yeah, uh, right. Why I'm saying GPL per se, because you have said you're involved in it and I come to SADA now. Uh the DPL needs to play a big role in getting the dentist to equal like the emotional quotient. Dentists are highly stressed. You talk about them, they always complain. Right? And I I one of the people never come ask me, I'm busy, I'm happy, I'm happy. I never one day saying to myself, I'm quite unhappy about something, right? Why do you think that? Why do you think you're like is it because you're part of a community? No, I I think I'm a very content individual. Uh right, I'm uh Yaku Chari said, right? I I don't worry about whether I should buy a new cartridge or buy a new shoe. I'm I'm I'm just content, you know, I'm just happy, you know, whatever I go. I have to buy it, I'll buy it. But it's just not about priority in life, but priority is we should be happy and served to make other people happy. And by the happiness you generate, get other people you feel happy. Life is about being happy. How do you get yourself in the spirit of giving and sharing? There's only one thing that does that. It's a it's a love of yourself and love, love of your profession, having a passion of giving. Why do you study dentistry? Dentistry is a subset of health. It's about getting people in a healthy space, getting a good smile, a good emotional caution. So it's a lot of things. I had a beautiful story the other day on Friday. I wanted to see a patient, I didn't think 18 years ago, I don't think each of her teeth. She used to show she was drinking Coca-Cola, she's a cook addict, right? Over there. She had breaking of her teeth, right? I used to play with her, just stick the teeth out of her in her mouth. So she came now, waited for me for six months to get an appointment with me to do her teeth now. Sick of her skills of her teeth, right? Because she remembers a good story, right? How I took care of her daughter when she was pregnant, how I cared for her. Just your empathy, your communication skills. But knowing that your colleagues also need that, besides your patient needs that. I think we need to need to have this. Why I'm seeing GPL is important. How do we set up programs on ETU, emotional coaching from a psychotherapy, psychological treatment, neurolinguistic programming? How do we get them to communicate better? Dentists do not communicate in a more congenial way, in a more patient way. I think we need to build we need to build a community, a tightened community. Yes, yes, yes. And for example, no, no, I I agree with you wholeheartedly. And for example, that yeah, I could tell you that uh he was not there for the painting program. First time in the history of SADA, uh I I've been involved, people didn't want to leave the painting program. What that tells you. There was a therapy happened there. Yeah, and the laughing, the collaboration, the jokes, and you asked Yuvati, Yuvati did, you know, she did she did so well, right? Uh I went to Yuvati to sit to tell her how well she did, right? Because she she needed that. She was the first time, first time on stage. To give her that confidence, you know, that she can do even better. I gave confidence eye contact was there, modulation was that though it talk was a bit long. How can she make it shorter? How can she make it a little more gay? But a constructive thing, but to know that she can do it again. But the painting therapy shows that what therapy you can do by your hands, you know. So I think we need to build that closer community, a more engaging community, but also that to know that I think older patients need to we need to be continuously mentoring people.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:12

Right? But I think we need to have more conversations and more lectures. Right? And I think we shouldn't underestimate the impact of the most quotient.

SPEAKER_03 2:09:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:20

I think I think we underestimate that.

SPEAKER_03 2:09:21

Yeah, and community.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:22

Yeah, yeah, and the cocoa. And also the realities of life. What what prof did there at the conversation in Melrose? I I'm not I'm not punting the prof because he's he's yeah, right, as uh from a business perspective, but what value he can give because he's a spiritual individual, what value he can give give to the uh health profession, medical dental doctors, right, in terms of planning wise. I think he is um is there for the long haul. Uh, right. Yeah, Yak will tell you successfully is helping Yak to do that, how many more people he can do. Yeah. And I believe that dentists uh need to bring him into play uh much earlier. But also that I think we need to need to teach dentists, like say like Yak will tell you with relationship with Sky Vision or what what good is done for you, all right? Uh what relationship we can build with companies, how we can how we can build with uh people like um the countants and uh also that I think uh what's lacking in Yakshan is that the uh spirit of learning. Dentists think that I think in dental school I'm stopping learning. But I I my experience is that you're almost beginning of learning. I think on life needs a thirst of learning. Uh, not only of dentistry, but I have this thing in my life. Every month I must learn something new.

SPEAKER_03 2:10:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:34

One thing every month. No matter how small it may be, whether it's a plant, whether it's whatever.

SPEAKER_03 2:10:40

Yeah, well speaking of community, also this podcast, we're creating a community here. And yes, thank you for joining that community and like sharing with our community your experiences and your fascinating story and all the in-between. And you know, it's it's you you could have easily just spent your Sunday afternoon at home, you know, learning that new thing for the money. Whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:02

Decided to share. No, no, I no, I I no I believe this podcast, right? I believe when Jesus told me first when I met him in um in the in the in uh Santin at the um at the at the at the Balo Park, and the first conversation we had in that we had in his uh we had in the boot. They balo park. I and and I told him, you know, yeah, you will you will do it. I'm not sure. I said, Jack, believe in yourself and you're gonna do this. Uh right. I I said You're gonna confuse the listeners, yeah, because you're talking about yes.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:33

You say yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, right. Yeah, yes. So I thought, yes, you're gonna do this. You believe in yourself. I said, there's no doubt you're gonna succeed. I said, take this step and open your heart to it and you'll succeed. And he said, but I'm not sure. I said, don't do I told him eradicate the doubt in your mind.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:50

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:51

We always ask this one question to our guests. Well, we often do. If somebody comes to you now, Doc, and says, I want, I'm thinking of doing dentistry, I'm not sure. Do you have any advice for me?

SPEAKER_01 2:12:03

What advice would you give somebody like that? I said, I said, I love you to be a dentist. I want you to become the best unique dentist. This is what I told from my own self, right? And I will guide and assist you to be a South Africa needs dentists. The world needs good dentists, the world needs integrated mind thinkers, but do not become the run-of-the-mull dentist. Become the unique dentist and contribute to the profession. Also contribute to the population. South Africa is a young democracy. We think that 30 years is an old democracy, but uh but uh we're still very, very much young as a country, democracy. I said uh dentistry as a part of the subsect of the help of the profession, subsect of humanity in South Africa. We need good dentists, we need people who are good, selfless individuals, but the most important thing, become the beacon of light and hope to the country. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:52

You said something interesting, contribute to the population, right? Yes. I mean, yak, I think we need to get him um motivated to contribute more to the population. I mean, first you're talking about having children. You need to find him children.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:04

Yeah, I must tell him the uh I must tell him uh I must tell Yak a uh Yak a real story, right? And the Santa, uh without him even in knowing the story, tell tell people who's Auntie Santa, because not everybody knows that. Uh yeah, yeah. So Santa is my wife, right? And uh she she actually loves Yak to be even though she doesn't speak to him uh uh often, yeah but uh she she's got this thing about Yak, she prays for him. Uh I don't know, uh right almost every week she tells me the story, and she told me that why is he not getting married, right? I'm praying for him uh to add the population to the world, and uh, and and she believes that uh Yak must get married, and she says, I must I must take Yak to hairdresser. Right? Uh and she said, Yeah, Yak deserved to be a groomed and step number one, yes. Right? But uh but Yesh told me something very important, uh uh Yak, um uh which I must tell you this uh two and a half years ago. Uh you had the accident two and a half years ago on your hands? Yeah, yeah. So, and yeah, he and I met somewhere and he said to me that you know Yak doesn't realize that the responsibility he has to himself, to his parents and everybody, right? And to his patients, and by having this daredevil approach of going to going to going to them, and he says he's doing it for himself. But but in this world where what Yash told me, we're not here for ourselves. I'll always remember this, and we told me we're here to together as a family of society. I remember those words from Yesh uh very, very fondly, right? Uh I even forgot that. Uh right, and he said it to me, but it made me think not only for you, but it gave me a reflection of kind of person what Yash is. And I think that uh without meeting Yash at the very first time, and uh because uh because heaker myself had good, and he always spoke about uh Yashi and Senator. Yeah. Right? And he said he said you must meet you, you must meet him, right? All the time he spoke about getting married to Yubati and all this story. And but he didn't speak about as as your cousin, he spoke about your humanity. Uh right, and for me, that touched me and I and and uh and a lot, right? And somebody could leave dentistry and do something like law, and besides doing law and getting to DPR, and uh, you know, and because I have family and and people that are in the legal fraternity who do what Yes has done, could be earning 10 times more what he's doing in DPR. For somebody to do me that, there must be something unique. So it's not about the money, it's it's about doing something for humanity, doing something with the profession, taking health and fusion together. And I think that we need um conversation like this, I think, at a greater forum. I think this is just a start of many things. And I think the beauty in this thing here of uh three individuals coming together to knowing that we have some sort of cynicism from a value perspective of life, our way our parents brought up, our grandparents brought up, and being from a from a common community of of spirituality transcends religious barriers and the most important thing, transcend differences, but there's unity process today. I feel the warmth and the love of the two of you and togetherness. I think that there's a lot to be must give. And I believe that through the wellness consultancy I'm doing and through what you're doing in a greater perspective, we must see the condoms to contribute to humanity. And I believe if we live in this country, there's something that we have to do. Like, you know, I had a choice when I had this uh consultancy available to be based full-time in Belgium, Netherlands, right? And I could I could I would have earned, I think, almost four times the money I'm earning now. I'm going to earn the consultancy. I chose to do this now in South Africa and they told me what you do in South Africa and be based here. I was very happy to do it. I realized that, you know what, I could take the easy way out of being being Belgium and Netherlands do the the uh in the first world, or being like you here today, together as a community today, giving back to South Africa. I think South African South Africa needs us, profession needs us, and the most important thing is that we have a role to play to build the democracy. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 2:17:14

Really well said. Doc, two things I'll take away from that. Yak needs a haircut, and DPL needs to pay me more.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:19

Thank you so much. Thanks so much, Doug. Pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 2:17:23

Thanks. I'm glad you didn't stay on the farm all those years ago. I don't think you would have made a good farmer, but uh yeah, uh thanks. Thank you so much. That was fine. Yeah, appreciate it. No, great. Wow.