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This episode of Why Did I Become a Doctor is brought to you in partnership with Medical Brief, South Africa's leading daily healthcare news service.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Stay informed with trusted reporting, expert insights, and analysis that matters to healthcare professionals. Subscribe free at medicalbrief.co.za forward slash subscribe. Dr. Faroook Sata, how's it? Good and you? Good, good. Uh it's not the first time we've used your name on the show. You know this. No. Good. I'm glad you I I caught you unawares there. Um one of also means he's not watching the show. No, no. Okay. Gunther Strait. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He mentioned your name and at that time I'd never met or spoken with you. Okay. Um how do you know Gunter? I think he worked for you, hey. Or under you.

SPEAKER_06 0:51

Uh under me at uh Ermelo Hospital. Yeah, he was a conserved dentist.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Yeah. All right. So Farouk, where are you from? What do you do? Welcome. Welcome. Thanks for coming. But we're going back to roots or now current? Yeah, I'm tempted to do the dental pun, but yeah, no. Uh just tell us. Look, I know you're a dentist. Yeah. I haven't Googled much. We were sitting together off camera and and Googling your practice and seeing the all the good reviews and stuff. And the bad ones. Yeah. I mean, why'd you become a dentist, Ruk?

SPEAKER_06 1:28

That's uh yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. I never really gave a thought until you actually invited me for the show. Um and when you actually then sit and think about it, the psychological part of it is is intense. Um I think m the main reason for becoming a dentist is actually social conditioning. Uh from a young age, I mean, you know, we're told, okay, the the good uh careers like doctor, dentist, lawyer. And uh I can remember in preschool and they would ask, what do you what do you want to be? And I would say, I put up my hand and say, I want to be a doctor. But at that time, GP. And then as the years go by, things change, and then you realize, okay, now when I look back at it from the outside, I don't think that was m what I wanted.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

It was Who told you about because you you mentioned something. You said um they tell you that the good job. So the Indian community. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 2:25

Right? It it's like uh those careers of the top-notch guys who study and become something up on a pedestal. Right? Uh it's very rare that they'll they'll actually uh you know support you if you do something that's not part of the A-list. So I actually was you know surprised as to how much it made me realize because uh like I said, I didn't give it any thought until now. And um What's what's the community you came from? You said the Indian community, where about? So I grew up in Tongat. Tongat, okay. Grew up in Tongat. Uh obviously small Muslim community there, but everybody knows everyone. And I was born there. Really? Yeah. I was also I I I Victoria Hospital. Okay. Yeah. I went to Tongat Primary and then Victoria Primary, and that's when uh our family moved out. Then I matriculated in uh Orient. Okay. Yeah. Orient Islamic School. Yeah, OIS. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Is that in that's in Tongat as well?

SPEAKER_06 3:26

No. No, no, no. That's in uh near the race course. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Yak doesn't pay attention to our guests because Neeraj Mystery was on and he spoke about Orient. When you're talking about all the schools in Durban town, the Indian schools, Gandhi Desai, Orient, Anjuman, all those things were nearby. Anjuman is a school. Yeah, Anjuman is a school according to Yeah, it is. Okay. So so wait, so Tonga Boy, that means we probably know we we probably all have mutuals here. Because so am I. Um So that community, they they it was Was it an unspoken thing or was it a spoken you must do medicine or No, uh in fact there was actually no pressure from my parents.

SPEAKER_06 4:06

It's not like my parents planted the seed and so. What did they do? So my dad was a businessman. Uh like with most of the men in my family. My grandfather had uh a cycle shop, so like bicycles. And uh they actually come from the cycle family in uh Victoria Street in Durban.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Not Acos or something like that.

SPEAKER_06 4:23

No, Victoria Cycle.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 4:25

Yeah. And um so even my uncles and you know, everyone that I was close to in my family were all businessmen. Um they all had the opportunity to study and and and you know, do something. They showed no interest. So I was actually the first person to venture out in the family with uh tertiary education and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Your mom's what was she?

SPEAKER_06 4:46

My mom is a housewife, uh, she's always been from a young age.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

And then Yeah, so what was it like growing up in Tonga? I mean, I used to visit Yash all the time because he lived in Tonga. We're in Tessanaga, no.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

No, but we we w Yeah, well, I mean not for very long though, right? Because we moved. But anyway, let's Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

So how was your experience in Tonga? Where did you live in Tonga? Uh Watsonia. Okay, that's by the beach. That's the Bedford View. You think you're Westbrook. Oh, yes, Westbrook.

SPEAKER_06 5:17

No. Uh I I think it it had its crucial uh uh i attributions. Um but obviously I I don't think it's a conducive lifestyle. Uh I was glad, I think, that my family moved out of there when we did. And where did they move to? We moved to North Beach when I went to Audience Islamic School. Then I matriculated there, and then straight after matric, uh moved to Cape Town for UWC. But uh coming back to, you know, saying I want to be a doctor and blah, blah, blah. It was actually my grandfather, I can remember this conversation quite vaguely, but um he asked me, uh I was probably maybe about 12 or 13, and he said, uh, what what do you want to become? So I was like, no, I want to be a doctor. And he's like, What doctor? So I said, I'm a medical doctor, and he's like, uh, why? And that was the first time someone asked me why. Uh and I I didn't know. I was like, I just want to be a doctor. And he's like, Yeah, but you have to know why. Like, what about it? Is it is you like or because that's gonna be the work you're gonna be doing for the rest of your life. And then uh he says, Have you thought about other careers and stuff? And I'm like, no, I just want to be a doctor. And then he's like, okay. And then his dining room had some arch wall or whatever, and he says, Have you ever thought about how is this thing made? And he's like, no. And he's like, you know, that's that's something an architect would design or, you know, do or whatever. So have you considered something like that? And I'm like, no. And then he says, Okay, um, have you considered being a dentist? Then I was like, that was the first time. I mean, dentist was never anywhere in the picture.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

So he was giving you options then. It wasn't, it wasn't like he was steering you into one specific.

SPEAKER_06 7:01

No, he was he was poking. You know, it's kind of just challenging the the uh train of thought. And then he's like, uh dentist? And I was like, no. And then he says, Yeah, you must think about it carefully because uh it's it's not a nice life being a medical doctor. So I was like, how? And he's like, no, you have to work all the time. So it doesn't matter. You don't have time to yourself. You have to work. Whenever someone needs you, you have to work. And he's like, you can still be a doctor if you're a dentist, and uh it's more creative as well. And uh you choose your hours, and it's a nine-to-five job. You're not on call like medical doctors or you know. So you if you don't want to work on weekends, you don't have to work on weekends. So Where do you think he got this insight from? He was a very intelligent man. Uh and uh so uh that conversation I think was the the you know, the thing that actually planted the seed. And then I was very decisive as a kid, and by grade end of grade 10, I knew dentist. That's it. Then I started working toward that and putting all the uh everything in place in terms of choosing your subjects and stuff like that. I was that annoying person that was in every class just to test out the subject, and then after two weeks I'd be like, no, this is not for me. And then I would change uh and go. Oh can you could you do that? In grade 10, yes.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

You could just change.

SPEAKER_06 8:23

Yeah. But it had to be it was early in the year.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:26

So I remember, okay, I was struggling with physics. I was useless with physics, and I knew my goal was to get six A's. And the only way I can get six A's is if I took a seven subject. So I took on Arabic. So I did three languages. I kept physics and bio and then math. But math and physics, I don't know, I just never grasped it, and I was not, I was probably a C or B student in that. And I was like, this is not gonna work for me. I have to make it an A. So uh I phoned UWC and I was like, listen, I want to be a dentist, so what subjects do I need? And they're like, no, you need either physics or you need bio, one of the two. You don't need both, and you don't need math. So I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

That's interesting, because Yak always makes a comment that everywhere needs maths.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:20

And I always wondered why would you need math? No. So they said I just need one of the sciences, uh preferably bio. And uh math is not compulsory. But obviously in school it was compulsory. So I couldn't that was not an option. I couldn't drop it. But Really? You couldn't drop math? I couldn't what I did was I dropped it at standard grade.

SPEAKER_05 9:38

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06 9:39

And then it became an eight. So then the now the the last subject uh to compensate for physics, which I knew I was not gonna get an A, that was when I was testing out all the other, because it didn't for me it didn't matter. I had to choose another subject, but it wasn't important for my dental path. So I went, I did technical drawing, I did computer science, I did accounting, I did uh all all the options. All the all the options. And I was like, nah, no, even though I don't need the subject, I I I don't think it's for me. Did you ever do home economics?

SPEAKER_03 10:11

Did they offer that?

SPEAKER_06 10:12

I I think I actually I looked into it, but I I could be wrong, but at that time I think Audience was only offering it to the ladies. Okay. So um because I was like, listen, the seventh subject, I'm just gonna take it on. Anyway, I ended up in geography. And uh I liked it. I loved it. And I finished my uh grade 11 results, six A's, and then I sent uh one application to UWC. And then on that form you have to choose another, you know, backup, whatever. I think I chose optometry and physio. Um, but I never gave any thought to those careers. I knew I have to, you know, focus on dental school. And then they replied, and they're like, uh, we'll give you provisional acceptance on your grade 11 results. If you repeat that for metric, the seat is yours. But you must pay a 500 and deposit. This was what 2002, around there somewhere. And I mean, I'm a student I don't have 500 bucks lying around. And I didn't even tell my parents I did the application.

SPEAKER_05 11:15

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_06 11:15

Yeah. So uh when it's why why didn't you tell them? For some weird reason, like I was not um a kid that needed guidance. Like when I put my head to something, I did it without asking I had two elder brothers and my parents, but I didn't ask anyone for how do I do this or what do you think? I would just make up my mind and do it. How did you get to that level? Like do your parents give you a lot of independence growing up? Yeah. Yeah, they did. But uh that is a good question because I also I don't know how uh the psychological part of it works because if I think back, that is about 16, 15, 16 years old. I I don't understand how I was so uh independent.

SPEAKER_03 12:01

Yeah, because you obviously you were self-aware enough to know that there was a financial component of it. But when you got to that part, like you where did you think it was gonna come from?

SPEAKER_06 12:12

But that's this is this is the thing now. So so when it hit that part, I was like, shit, I don't have this. Now I have to speak to uh my parents. So I told them, I was like, listen, I sent this application and I got in and now I need to pay 500 bucks. And uh at that time, I don't think things were good financially, even for my parents. And they're like, listen, but my dad always made a plan. He's like, listen, don't worry, this is a good thing, we'll sort it out. And uh one of my mom's cousins was visiting at the time and he asked me, like, what are you doing? Blah, blah, blah. So I'm busy with school, but I sent this application and he's like, Oh yeah. And I said, Yeah, it gave me provisional acceptance, but I need to pay the deposit to secure the seat. And he's like, Okay, here's the money. So he paid for it for me. Um Mom's cousin. My mom's cousin. And then uh metric. Uh everything was going according to plan, and then final exams. And I still remember, I don't know if you know uh the Al-Ansar Fair. They normally have that. It's like a big Muslim Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh Muslim Fair. I think it's also a radio station. Alan, yeah, well, Al-An Sar. And they uh the whole Muslim community is there, and it's it used to be so big, they used to have it, I think, at the ICC in Durban. And uh at that time we had to wait for metric results. And I my my mom's someone phoned and they're like, listen, we're here at the Alan Sar fair, and they had those, you know, those those big boards where they put uh an Orient Islamic school decided to uh publish the metric results on that board. And he's like everyone's names and everything. Everyone's names and symbols and whether they pass. Yeah, hardcore. And uh so he says, no, no, no, and he says, like, no, he's waiting because obviously the names are changing, so he's just waiting to see if he can see my name. And she's like, Yeah, and then he says, Okay, yeah, it is. And it's and then he says, Okay, so yeah, Faru got five A's. And everyone's like, Oh, congratulations, you passed. Damn, I was upset. Because you wanted C. I uh I I was very upset. I uh and my mom's like listen, you passed, you know, five A's is still good. I'm like, that's not good enough. And um uh that was a holiday period, and then uh when you go fetch your metric certificate from school, I opened up bio 79. I was like, screw this shit. I'm gonna send this for remarking. Yeah. I sent it for remarking, it came back 84. Oh. So that's how I got my six A's. But after obviously, even for the remarking thing, uh, I did that myself. I I didn't it was uh if when I think about it, then I don't know what what did we use for like internet and stuff? How did we Matrick?

SPEAKER_03 14:54

I think you're the same year as me. Yeah. So we still had dialogue, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:57

It was dialogue, right? Because I'm thinking about how did I research those things? Like how did I know okay, I can send my paper for remarking to the uh department of education and but also you probably would have spoken to people like friends.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

No. No, not really.

SPEAKER_06 15:10

No, I think I actually just researched it. And I and I and I saw sorry, you're right. I think I asked um one of the teachers, obviously the bioteacher, and he's like, um, no, you should send it for remarking. But the school doesn't help you with that.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:25

So moved on.

SPEAKER_07 15:27

Yeah. They're like, here's your certificate. Yes, like and they're like this overachiever stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

They're like, you got five A's, just be happy with it and go, oh, but wait, why did you want the six A's?

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

Because it didn't matter, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:38

You've still got into the industry. Because you replicated the result.

SPEAKER_06 15:42

Yes. So they they uh uh they even with the five A's, they confirmed the seat is mine.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

So I wanted six then, just for yourself.

SPEAKER_06 15:48

Yeah. A personal challenge, you know?

SPEAKER_02 15:52

You can go tell everybody you got six A's.

SPEAKER_07 15:54

Yeah, but but also but I felt like I felt like a failure. Five A's is still good.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

But your parents are like proud of you and congratulate you.

SPEAKER_06 16:03

No, there was no resistance from them and no making me feel bad. Your brothers were older. Yeah, I'll go to Alabama.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Did they what did they do? They did well in high school. No. So it's not like you had some high bar that was set that you had to follow just for your own self. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:19

So it that that was i interesting because I think my father mentioned a couple times as well when yeah, he was very verbal about it, where he said that listen, your brothers had opportunities to go to university and whatnot, but they're useless. And uh I see potential in you, so I don't mind spending money on you for education. So it's like, if you're gonna do this, I'll invest it in you, uh you know, pay for your uh tertiary education or whatever, but you gotta excel, like get this degree. I was like, yeah, it can be done.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

And did you apply anywhere else or just that UWC bucket? Why? One application.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

Why?

SPEAKER_06 16:55

R Remember I made up my mind, right? Yeah. Grade 10. That was my decision. Yeah, but what about Wutz? What about Pretoria? No, I knew I wanted to do it in Cape Town. How come? The adventure aspect.

SPEAKER_05 17:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 17:07

You know, moving out of home, new city, new experiences. I mean you're students, you know?

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah, but but hold on, I mean Pretoria, Joburg, those are all new cities, new experiences.

SPEAKER_06 17:19

I think coastal. Uh I'm coming from Durban, I was used to coastal, and I thought that would still be nice to have, you know?

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Okay. Did you ever you've been in Cape Town before prior to that?

SPEAKER_06 17:28

Yes, but just for holidays. Okay. Yeah, and I and I enjoyed it. So but it worked out. I ended up getting there, and then when you get to dental school, no one prepares you for that. And that's a whole different story.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

But wait, I don't want to go to that story yet. Yes. I still didn't ask you, like what when did when you moved from Tonga to to Durban, what was that like? Did you did people how did people treat you? Like the Derby. Did you call you a farmer or this and that and all sorts of stuff?

SPEAKER_06 17:56

So it was it wasn't easy for me to settle in at Orient Islamic school because I was always exposed to multicultural co-ed schools.

SPEAKER_04 18:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 18:03

And now suddenly, bang, you're in an Islamic school. And um it for me it was uh listen, I'm here for a purpose. I'm gonna focus on that. Yes, I had friends, and they were some decent guys in terms of being on the same uh mentality. But then you get the extreme guys who are like very religious. And I don't come, I mean my family is religious, but we're not staunch. So that for me was a bit of uh uh an adaptation. Um and also uh I mean suddenly I think this was yeah, high school from grade from grade 10. They segregate you, so you uh there's only guys in your class, and obviously that the girls are separate. Um so it was something new to get used to. Do I, you know, uh regret those days or won't go through it again? No. I don't have an issue with that. But I just feel like for me, it was nice to come from a multicultural co-ed and then experience the opposite end of the spectrum. And I think it equipped me more for life. But the guys who were in audience from grade zero to Metric, it's it's shocking because they're not exposed to uh uh can you even say like the real world. Yeah, Western sort of influence. So they look um I would say our family was uh uh we weren't extremely wealthy. We we got through life, but Orient is full of wealthy students. And uh I think that as well made me realize In fact I was in Orient as a bursary, bursary student. Because of my results, they uh accepted me, and I think I was on a 50% bursary, but I had to keep producing results.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

But it's if I can ask, it's still predominantly Indian, right? Uh Orient. Orient, yeah. Yes. So it like from Tonga to Orient, you're still kind of keeping the undertone there of Indian culture. But you said you moved to Utah but north.

SPEAKER_06 20:14

Yeah. So we're now like oh but I remember obviously in Tonga you uh uh yes, uh, we had Muslim friends and whatnot, but you're also exposed to all the other religions. Christians, Hindus, Tamils, e everyone. And you all together, you I mean, we grew up together. Now this is like um complete segregation. Uh in the audience there's no I I think the actually it uh it was not the school policy not to accept anybody, but it was obviously an Islamic school, but I know there were a few non-Muslim students.

SPEAKER_05 20:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 20:42

Yeah. So exposed to rich kids now. So that's that's the thing. Yeah, right? Tell us about that. Yeah. So the exposure to the rich kids thing is uh and if you don't come from that as well, it is difficult for me to grasp because I used to I used to work on weekends, you know, for pocket money and stuff like that. And these guys just daddy gives them everything, you know? They've got money for everything, they've got cars at a young age, they've got um and I I didn't want to get involved in that kind of friendship circles, you know, where uh um you become almost like a tag along. So I was like, uh you know what? I have I have friends that are decent enough for me to have conversations with when I'm at school, but I really I don't have an issue being by myself. Um And what sort of work did you do on the weekends and things? Um the one I can remember that I did quite often was a pizza shop. Yeah. What is it called? J-Mo's. Okay, it still exists.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Yeah. That's an uh on the beach there.

SPEAKER_06 21:44

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Next to Milky Land. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. The exact one. So I used to work there on weekends.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Yeah, it clubs murky late. Yeah. Gone? What did you do? Did you like serve pizza and stuff? Yeah, I was behind the counter.

SPEAKER_06 21:55

Oh great. Taking orders and I worked one day as as that job.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

quit. Is it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:02

So I I I I didn't stay there very long, but I think it was a a nice experience as a uh uh kid to actually and I think that also kept you or gives you a bit of a business mind.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

Isn't it tough? Yeah. I was about to say, I thought you were going to say gives you a little bit of interest insight into dental coding because I worked at Debonese. Yeah. Worked at Debonese. And um the reason why I quit was if people said like no mushrooms or extra cheese, you can't just go and write there no mushrooms or extra cheese. There's a code for it. You know that you gotta punch in a code and press it. But no one gave me like a reference like type of good ex system that I could use. So I was like screwing up every single order. You didn't have the Sada dental code book the pizza code book.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

But I uh what did it teach you like working at a pizza like interacting with people, right?

SPEAKER_06 22:53

Yeah, yeah. Um and also system. Like it's very systematic. You take the order, you make sure it's logged, you put it in the kitchen, the receipt, the slip. Huh?

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Yeah you try it to yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:07

But I think that gives you uh sequence, you know? But I remember one weekend I wasn't working and my dad, there was a restaurant that opened uh below our apartment and the the owner he kind of they were friends or whatever and he's like listen she needs some help it's uh I think it was a Valentine's weekend they're gonna be busy um she wants some help can you please go as a waiter? So I was like okay cool. So I go and this night was busy eh that was freaking busy I worked my ass off and then go into her office and then she oh thank you so much for your help and then she tucked something into my top pocket. So I come out of the office and then I take it out 50 bucks. I was like this is bullshit. So I go back into her office and I was probably maybe like about I think 15 and she's like yeah and I'm like uh I think you underpaid me and she's like no I said did you discuss any rates with my father and she's like no he just said you're coming to help me out I was like yeah this is not okay you need to give me more and she's like okay and then she's like um yeah but you see you were just helping out I said no I did work quite a bit for you tonight and I think you should give me more and at that time like as a kid and you know also so many years ago how old were you at this stage? 15. 15 yeah and then uh she's like okay and then I was like yeah I think you should at least give me 200 and uh and then she gave it to me. Oh okay she gave me the 200 bucks and then I went and then my dad was like oh so how was it and I was like your friend is full of shit and he's like what do you mean? I was like no she tried to do me in and it's like how so I'm like no she gave me 50 bucks and he's like no that's not cool did you tell her? I said yeah I did and then she gave me 200. He's like okay good on you.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Yeah good on you so what do you think that taught you that uh from a business perspective?

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Know your worth know your worth but also stand up for yourself. But I don't think it taught you that because you knew it already like you knew to ask I would have just kept quiet and taken the 50 bucks and moved on.

SPEAKER_06 25:08

But that's the thing right and and uh I I'm actually curious to know how uh how how you get that mentality as a kid. I know I was a loner because I never used to ask anybody for help. I wasn't too close to my brothers. They were always together and I was the academic you know so I would do everything by myself and um I thought obviously if I don't stand up for myself who will? You know? So but then that also brings me to uh a story on actually uh in dental school and UWC.

SPEAKER_03 25:42

Well sorry before you get there I just wanted to point out something like so you said in Islamic school it was very difficult for you because you you just went there and you made kind of superficial friends, right?

SPEAKER_06 25:55

That must have been very alienating because I think what was nice is on the day that I actually uh uh my first day there um obviously my father's a dropped me off this was the other thing I think it was him actually he just he's like go do things you know like okay if this is what you need to do they never came with you to where you need to be and like help you. So you had your independence that's good.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

That's good.

SPEAKER_06 26:18

He was like okay so you're going to school okay cool this is your first day you're going to Orient okay you just literally drop me up on the driveway. Okay bye have a good day gone. I'm like okay make my way to the office sit there and then there was this guy Kabir sitting next to me and uh we coming from multicultural schools we had the uh the uniform grey school pants white shirt and I think at that time I can't remember the tie colour but obviously a school tie and orange is kurta so the the uniform is uh uh the robe and um so I see this guy's also wearing a tie so I'm like which school are you coming from? I can't remember the school but he's like yeah it's also his first day and then we got actually we got placed in the same class and we sat next to each other and then we became really good friends. He's also a dentist and he moved to Australia. Kabir what? Kabir what was he saying Khan but it it doesn't sound right.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Well maybe let's see if you watch the show put a comment Kabir do you remember the first day at Orient with uh Farouk?

SPEAKER_06 27:28

Yeah yeah with your time Kabir so he uh he and I became good friends and we sat next to each other in class and you know uh got through everything together and uh he was he's also you know quite an uh intelligent guy academic and so we got on quite well so I would say he he was you know a good whenever you needed a friend he was there.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

But my question was what was that actually like for you with regards to like did I suffer?

SPEAKER_06 27:56

Yeah it sounds alienating like you're going to school it's meant to be a little bit you know when you say alienating I love being by myself. I generally don't like people so I if I can be alone I'm in a happy place. So even as a kid like I would go sit you know in the sports ground or whatever under the tree, have my sandwich, mind my own business and I was happy.

SPEAKER_03 28:22

Would you call yourself an introvert? Because I mean look I I first met you through like uh a coffee shop actually when you know we used to uh I used to DJ there and you were doing your own thing. But it we have a mutual friend and it did not seem like you were an introvert unless that mutual friend was putting you out of your comfort zone and introducing you to people. Are you extroverted introvert?

SPEAKER_06 28:44

Yeah. Yeah I mean I mean part of the job is to speak to people. Yeah. Right? So you I think that forced yes uh and then working from a young age I don't think I had a problem interacting with people. And that never bothered me never made me anxious or anything like that. But if I have to choose between the two, I'd rather not speak to anyone. Yeah. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Thank you for discovering on this show.

SPEAKER_06 29:09

Yeah there was a story in dental school you were thinking of that's related to the 200 and so uh we're prose clinics uh I won't take any supervisor names every one of our stories with a dentist has something to do with prostitutes what is it with this speech so remember I don't know with you guys but uh we used to work in pairs at that time and uh we didn't we didn't but did it but we we did yeah go on and then they used to you would you would end up with someone according to your surname right because the groups and uh I had um my part my prostner and he wasn't too focused at the time but I mean now I you guys probably know him uh he's he's he's a very successful dentist now with the fancy practice in Cape Town and whatnot. But at that time so we come to the clinics and he just rushed from somewhere he was a bit late. So that was the first strike a couple of minutes late for the clinics. What do you mean first strike? With with our supervisor for that session, right? So she's like where's your partner? I'm like no he's on his way. Okay, fine. But my patient was there so I finished up what I needed to do. And my session went well. And then anyway so he rocks up and then he was doing I think try-in or whatever and I needed to adjust something and then he doesn't have his wax knife. So the supervisor's like don't you know that you're supposed to be prepared for your sessions and he's like yeah but it's just my wax knife. It's like just your wax knife. And then I'm like okay so I'm like listen I'm done with my session I can lend him mine. She's like no he must come prepared and he must have his own stuff. I'm like I don't know I I'm just minding my own business and I don't at this point I don't realize that I'm gonna get the short end of the stick as well. And then she says okay but anyway dismiss your patient you're gonna have to reschedule them and I'm failing you for the session. And she takes my book and she failed me as well. Oh your logbook that you need to get points indeed she failed she failed me as well. Why? So that's what I asked her. I was like why? And then she's like don't question me. I'm like why not? And then she's like you guys work as a team so you must make sure that your partner is uh ready you know I said that's bullshit yes he doesn't have his wax knife but also I mean he's still prepared to do his session and see his patient and I'm done with my stuff and I and everything's fine. You said it's fine. So I'm moving on to the next step. And she's like yeah but this is how I uh supervise and you both get zero for the session. Yes yeah I I I am a bit short tempered and I followed her out into the you know uh the you UWC as well no I no I was a Praetorian yeah but I I did not so you know the cubicle setup right yeah yeah and then suddenly you hear all the and no drills there but everything goes silent and I'm like I must try not to take her name so I chased her down the the the the corridor and I'm like I will not accept this and she says uh I am your supervisor and you will accept whatever I do I said is that your final in this conversation she's like yes so I went straight to the the um head of department for Pros I said this is how you run your department and she's like which supervisor was this I was like I told her she says go and bring her up now so I come back down I'm like the head uh head of department wants to see you so she looks at me and she says what do you mean I said she wants to see you come up with me now so we go we're both standing there in front of her uh uh desk and she says did you fail him for the session and she's like yeah and she's like why she says no his partner didn't have his wax knife so she says give me your logbook I gave the HOD my logbook and she gave me 75% and she said you go back downstairs and you continue with your work and since then obviously now I became targeted on your back yeah just with one supervisor probably with all of them so now obviously then when the supervisors have tea time yeah they talk about this now in every department I would get flak for oh are you gonna take me to the head of department so I'm like well if you give me reason to yes wow so I mean uh and then there were guys that were mistreated as well but they keep quiet. Yeah they don't say stand up for themselves they don't uh say listen this is wrong or or take it further you know and if I just accepted that that would have you know caused such a snowball effect with my uh quotas and then I'm stressed out as a student and and I had everything planned out I know okay you know I've I've got my cases I'm not in a bad position uh clinically I'm competent I'm seeing my patients I you know supervisor said everything is fine. That doesn't make sense. You can't fail me for the session just because he didn't bring his damn wax knife. But yeah you become you get targeted by the supervisors.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

It sounds very totalitarian I didn't expect that what does that mean South African university I mean I I was I was in a university in Mauritius and it was India Indian run. We would get failed for like having your top shirt button button like a little bit ridiculous.

SPEAKER_06 34:26

That seems a bit extreme.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Yeah I mean okay so totalitarian is a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete self-surfaction like it was very like like a dictatorial type of thing. Yeah. Was it like that?

SPEAKER_06 34:45

I didn't get that impression not I wouldn't say overall because I mean obviously the HOD stood up for me.

SPEAKER_05 34:50

Yeah right?

SPEAKER_06 34:51

Oh yeah so this is it's it's it's certain supervisors that take chances.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Okay. But can I ask the supervisor is are they like sessional people? They're in private practice or whatever and then they get paid like a small fee to sometimes sometimes they're not in private practice.

SPEAKER_06 35:05

They only do sessions. Oh really?

SPEAKER_03 35:06

Yeah but wait sorry but I can ask it's not like they trained to come and teach. They're just there for like a job.

SPEAKER_06 35:13

They have no training to teach some of them do because they stay in the department and then with their years of experience but uh as a qualified dentist that's all they're running on yeah but some are sessional and they have nothing to do with the actual Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

But then how is Cape Town? So moving from Derbs to Cape Town. Did you have fun? Was the freedom there? Did you have the freedom Because that's why you said Cape Town right you want freedom yeah but there wasn't any of that. How come?

SPEAKER_06 35:40

Dental school is like a prison You mean from first year? Yeah. I mean remember I was uh I mean first year I got free because I had six A's after I sent for remarking so they gave me my first year free. That's great yeah and then uh I had to produce results to uh to keep getting my bursaries to get through the other four years. And I did have a bursary from the Islamic development bank. So they would check my results and whatnot and give me money every year.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

Was there any catch to that?

SPEAKER_06 36:10

Like yeah no so uh when I say catch I mean strings attached nothing No none of that but um yeah I you know honestly uh when I visit Cape Town now or like when you're not a student, you realize how much of the city you actually don't know because you haven't actually explored you haven't done anything. At that time I used to drive but it's not like I knew the roads and I was you know going around there wasn't that luxury. It was uh dental school and then if you're not at dental school you're studying um I never used to go out much or you know where did you stay in Cape Town? Uh this area was called Craven B near Tiger Bug Hospital Yeah near the Tiger Bug. So you were close to campus or I was very close to campus yeah I was very close to campus.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

And um you know but so you had a goal you needed to pass you needed to make sure you're gonna get your funding done so you had your head screwed on and you can't mess around. Were you in the library often we weren't touching other people's hands and stuff in the I uh yeah yeah you can say that. And do you stay Oh you didn't stay red say okay so you ended up Yeah no I was uh boreding yeah any other dental school drama or stories if you go back to dent have you ever been back to dental school like after after I qualified yeah how would it feel though I I've been back to dental school yeah and I it gives me like you know hi jeebis. The hippie jeebies going it used to going back there because those halls are they bring back lots of memories traumatic memories yeah I I don't know how I would feel but how was then did you do well at dental school like you used to do in metric or or in a high school obviously the dynamics change when you get to university because it's uh a lot more difficult but you have to uh for me then I would a pass is a pass.

SPEAKER_06 38:07

I wouldn't uh put too much pressure on myself because uh I mean at one point we were doing what 25 modules a year and you have to pass every module. So if as long as it's passed, I'm happy.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

But how was that for you? Because you seem like you're very hard on yourself.

SPEAKER_06 38:26

I learned that in in first year the the first exams we wrote and then I realized no this is a different ballgame and I have to change my attitude otherwise I'm just gonna run myself down. And I said to myself listen just need to get through this get your degree that's it pass is a pass. And then after when you start working as well I mean density is a hands-on job there's so much of stuff we didn't learn that you're aiming to get 90% for that you actually learn on the job.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

So I don't I don't uh I don't did you ever feel like you made a huge mistake doing dentistry shouldn't have done anything else or not not really look I in dental school I while I was a dental dental student.

SPEAKER_06 39:06

No I never and it never crossed my mind at that time. It was only after uh being a dentist for many years that you realized shit. Yeah. And as a follow-up question to what he asked like can you remember what was your lowest point at dental school I hated author my I don't know it was like physics session I just never grasped it and uh I remember at one point it was very borderline like that was the module that was gonna like F things up for me. And then I went and spoke to head of department again and I'm like listen all the heads knew you're like listen you need to help me here what must I do? I'm willing to put in the effort but I'm just not grasping this shit. And he's like no okay come do some remedial sessions let's try and get you you know and he says and he as well said listen you just have to pass. Don't stress yourself out because clearly this is not something you want to do when you qualify so don't don't burn yourself out. Just pass the the course. It's like okay fine I can do that.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

So that was there's such a great lesson in this you know if you're suffering you go and speak to somebody and I would never suffer.

SPEAKER_06 40:16

I would never poor guys like now I've got to give a media blood but yeah I mean uh who else I think uh Faisal Mansoor similar thing you went to the the head of department or something and said I I need to what what do I need to do to because I mean uh i i it's calculated right you know what's going to happen the consequences you're passing everything but yes uh with dental school at that time if you fail one module they'll hold you back for the year and so I could see okay this is heading in that direction and I'm passing everything else so I was like listen if you're honest and vulnerable and you go and say listen I'm struggling with this please help me and they help you it it it sounds so obvious but I was one of those people that probably wouldn't have done that kind of thing. So okay So you don't generally like asking for help No not really that's absolutely not but how is it m is it just because you don't like getting help or is it a pride thing?

SPEAKER_02 41:15

It's probably just like I'm just I don't want to make some my my problems other people's I don't know actually I'm just I wasn't that type of person that would take the lecturer and say come outside let's go to the HOV You know what I mean? Okay. I'd probably go to my friends and complain and stuff and suffer in silence. Yeah or maybe tell my parents or something. Okay. But I guess maybe you knew okay I gotta do this myself fascinating. Friends in dental school did you make many? I didn't have that many dental friends eh?

SPEAKER_06 41:49

Uh I mean obviously you know uh on a daily basis yes there are people that you get on with and then you stick with those people but I think it only you only realize it after you qualified who are your actual friends. And I I I can't say I have dentist friends from that that qualified with me that I'm still in contact with like on a close base, you know? Obviously yes we we know of each other by name and we we we graduated together.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

Sarisha did she qualify in your year?

SPEAKER_06 42:20

I'm so bad with the because I used to just be by myself. I uh faces yes I know uh and we remember we were a big class 120 Wow what year was this uh 2000 and I started 2004 when I started dental school yeah yeah so 120 students but then you're also very only in contact with your group and then you're only all together in like lecture rooms and whatnot and then at that time you're not talking to anybody you're listening to the lecturer. So you don't really know each and every one um but so you finished when? 20? 2008 2008 yeah 2009 was my comms of yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Where was that? And what was the plan? Were you thinking uh like were you in finally at dental school like are you thinking okay one day I'm gonna go out there and make a have a big practice and fancy cheer. What what was your plan?

SPEAKER_06 43:14

I had no plan at that time. So when uh I actually had like a massive relief when I qualified you know when you got the degree then I was like shit at least I can breathe you know there's no stress to now keep studying and keep aiming for grades and blah blah blah. It felt it was the most uh relief I ever had in my life at that time. And went to Ermelo, I knew I a day as well was calculated. Uh single guy, they're gonna I'm not gonna aim for all the fancy spots because I'm not gonna get it and then I'm gonna be sitting with the rubbish spots. So I uh when they come to that time where you apply for your CommServe, actually let us just let the class play out what needs to be done and then they put a like a final list to show what places are still available. And then I saw Ermelo was still on their two spots. And I was like, uh, no one else wants this place. It's like two hours drive from Joburg. Let me just apply.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

And then I applied. And from Milan, eh? Yeah. So down the road from where we did our comp stuff. Where it was yours? Standard False.

SPEAKER_06 44:12

Yeah, Standard and False was so they they used to have the same C B D group. Yeah. Yeah. So um Dr.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Chutlal was a place. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 44:20

Yeah, yeah. Then uh ended up in in Ermelo. But wait, wait, wait, wait. You mentioned Joburg now. Yeah. What what did Joburg have to do with anything? Like city life. Like city life. Like uh I mean uh yes it's rural, but if I needed to, you know, take a drive or whatever just to get some city exposure, Joburg was two hours away. So you didn't want to go back to KZ inside by the folks? No. So I I've never never been back. I mean, obviously to visit family or whatever, but not uh to live. Um because straight after Ermelo, I moved to Chauten.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

And so you do ComServe Ermelo and you stay on.

SPEAKER_06 45:00

So Ermelo is an interesting story. Yeah. Uh I got there, I did um my first year Comserve. And then I realized okay, you know what? I wanna I furthered my studies in uh conscious sedation. The anesthesiology course uh UWC was offering at that time, they stopped it now because a lot of dentists were doing it to get into that. It was like a quick way, and then the anaesthetists were not happy, so they actually shut it down. So I think I I think I was the last group that got that qualification.

SPEAKER_04 45:34

Why did they shut it down?

SPEAKER_06 45:35

Because uh the proper way is to obviously as a GP, you do four years to become an anaesthetist. And this now as a conscious sedation two-year part-time course, you can do the same job.

SPEAKER_03 45:49

Wait, like intubating you're not intubating, you just guess using gas. IV. IV, yeah. Oh, okay. Sure.

SPEAKER_06 45:56

So that's why and it was uh Prof. Rulloff, sir that was running the course, he was running it here at UWC and uh I think King's College, London. Yeah. And then the and then uh the the U UWC one they stopped because of the controversy. But what do you feel about that? That they stopped it. I I I think it's fair. Yeah, because a lot of people uh were doing the course and it's just two year part-time. Yeah. It's uh it's a big uh I I I do a lot of sedation, but um legally now in South Africa you can only be one at a time, either the treating dentist or the sedationist. So I'm not one of those carboid dentists that will sedate my patient and treat. So when I'm doing sedations, I get in uh a colleague of mine, he does the sedation and does the monitoring, and then I just focus on the treatment. So it's nice to have that uh back background knowledge as to what he's doing at that time, you know? So I think that's uh it adds to the the practice services. Um but I did that for two years, and then I said, okay, if I'm gonna further my studies, I'll stay on at the hospital, at uh Ermelo Hospital, and then there's less pressure. Because it's easy to stay on and get a job there. So I asked them. I went and I said, listen, uh because every year they take in uh more comservs, and they're like, uh I said, uh I'd like to stay on. Uh do you have a position for me? And they're like, uh yeah, we'll make one for you.

SPEAKER_04 47:26

Oh, that's good.

SPEAKER_06 47:27

So I was like, okay. Then I didn't realize, I thought, okay, fine, I'm gonna stay on as a dentist. Um and then obviously when they apply for the new commserves, there was about two or three that came in. So eventually, I think we were about six dentists. But we used to do satellite clinics as well. So Ermelo, and then I can't even remember those little towns, but they were like a half an hour drive out of Ermelo.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Hermannskral, one of them. No. Hermanskral is Pretoria, dude.

SPEAKER_06 47:55

No, so but then yeah, we would we would drive out to those uh and prisons as well. And um so now I come back for the uh new year where this was after commser.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

No contract or anything. They didn't give you a.

SPEAKER_06 48:11

So this is the thing. I go I go in the new year for the contract. And I'm in HR, and they're like, the medical officer wants to speak to you. I'm like, okay. So I go to the medical officer and he's like, I heard that you asked to stay on. I said yes, and he says, Okay, here's your your appointment letter. It's like, okay, I'm underqualified for this. They they made me head of department.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Bob Com's out too.

SPEAKER_06 48:36

Yeah, I said, listen, there are two dentists under me that are my seniors. He says, Yeah, but they're not equipped for the job. So uh if you want it, it's yours. And I was like, uh, well, I I don't know how to navigate this, but um I'm I'll take it. And so I took the job. And then you learn behind the scenes stuff in uh the health department and how you actually uh we have money for lots of things that we don't use correctly. Yeah. So now as hell uh as HOD, I had to now go and figure out all these, you know, things and how to apply for equipment and whatnot. And then also I realized that uh the dentists at the rural hospitals are allowed to be on call. They don't tell you this. And uh so I go and I select and is this how it works? And they're like, yeah, you guys can be on call, but the HOD. Over time, yes. Yeah. I mean, because we were six people, we would share the um on call, but you get I think 15 to 20,000 extra.

SPEAKER_03 49:38

Wait, wait, sorry, before you carry on, how how did your colleagues take that?

SPEAKER_06 49:41

That you could stay from ComServe to So there were two that were there for uh uh longer than me and uh uh and and senior. Um they didn't take lightly to it, but um there's nothing they could do. It's like uh I didn't ask for this. I asked to just stay on as a general dentist, as you know, whatever junior dentist.

SPEAKER_03 50:05

And what happened to the previous guy?

SPEAKER_06 50:08

Uh retired. Oh. It was Dr. Packy at the time. He yeah, he was very old. He retired. And uh there was another dentist under him that was my supervisor. Yeah she she was very nice, Juanita. And uh she was she took over after him for a couple of months, but then she got married and she moved to Joburg. So now there's no uh so the guy who was next in position thought he's automatically going to get it, and then I got offered the position. Um I also didn't realize what a big jump it is in the pay. I mean, from junior dentist to HOD, at that time I think they were paying me like 100 grand a month.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Sure. Serious? Yeah, sure. She should have stayed there longer, dude.

SPEAKER_07 50:52

But then now I realize I should have just stayed there.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

But um that that's like 2000 in 2006.

SPEAKER_06 51:02

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Can't be 2011. Oh, 2011, sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:06

Yeah, 2011. So I stayed on for the two years. I finished the part-time course in um uh UWC, and then while I was there, I bought a property in four ways. And after I finished, I was like, listen, I can stay here and not progress, uh, or I can move back to Joburg without a plan and get my life rolling. So I did that. Uh but the last week that I was in Ermelo, I actually went to a brae with some friends, and there was this guy I met there, and he says, uh, so what are you doing? I'm like, no, I'm moving back to Joe Burg next year. And he's like, You have a job? I'm like, no, I have a house. I've got savings, and then I'll just see what needs to be done. And he's like, no, his cousin has a medical center, go and speak to him. I'm like, no, I don't want to work for someone. Uh I want to work for myself. And he's like, no, he doesn't know how it works. Just go see him. You've got nothing to lose. So I said, okay, fine, go visit this guy. And then he's like, uh, listen, the dental department, there were three or four dentists here already. They none of them were successful for more than a year. But the the section is empty and you don't work for me. We're multidisciplinary. It's the GP, physio, optom, and then dentist. So now that place is there, it's available. You just rent it, you get your own practice, you're your own boss, you do whatever you need to do. I was like, perfect. This it's ticking all the boxes. Um, and it was in Boxberg.

SPEAKER_05 52:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:31

So started with him, and then from day one, because he's been established there for 15 years when I started. From day one, my diary was full.

SPEAKER_05 52:39

Oh.

SPEAKER_06 52:40

Yeah. So after one year of being HOD, you Two years. Two years. Two years of HOD, putting the dentist on call, getting them all 20 grand extra a month. Yeah. I managed to get new equipment for the Ermelo hospitals, new chairs, uh, digital x-rays, blah, blah, blah. But then by the time I left, because to implement it, the process is a nightmare where you actually have to get um all the paperwork done for like the technician to just come and and set everything up. And it takes months. So I was like, listen, I can't stay on for this. Whoever's taking over next will have to s figure it out. But at the time they revamped to the hospital and they had a new dental department. So we had all new equipment and whatnot that I ordered.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

Um that's where Gunther came in in 2011.

SPEAKER_06 53:23

Uh I think he was still at the old clinic. Yeah, because he only stayed one year. I'm not yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:28

He was his comms, yeah. Comps up. So you were his head of department.

SPEAKER_06 53:31

Yes. Yes. And then uh well.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

Oh, Gunther?

SPEAKER_06 53:34

Yeah. Yeah, he's a he's a very nice guy. He's a very nice guy and hard work guy as well. Okay. Um So Boxburgh, tell us about Boxburg then.

SPEAKER_04 53:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 53:43

So then yeah, I I started the private practice there, and then that's that's where I've been now. Same place. Yeah. Well, I uh relocated because of the dynamics at so when I moved in, uh are you familiar with the area? No. Not really. So there's it used to be called the Easter End Galleria. And it was an old uh mall kind of setup, and the rent was dirt cheap. So it was nice for me to like actually, because I was busy, I used to travel quite often. Um and then when I got back, then the doctor's like, uh, I think it was the guy that owns Bedford Center. He's like, listen, this guy bought over the building, they're demolishing and they're rebuilding, but they'll keep us on as tenants. And then they put us in this like dingy temporary section for two years. And it was bad. And then um obviously now with moving into the new uh section, the rent I think tripled. Shh. Yeah. So and then my space as the dentist from the design, that's the space I have. Every year there's a 10% uh increase and I can't grow. So I relocated, I got a bigger premises just down the road though. So my patients uh the same patient base and uh in the area though now, I've been there for about 15, yeah, 15 years.

SPEAKER_03 55:02

What's your practice called?

SPEAKER_06 55:04

The health house. The health house. Yeah, we're at the Dubai Center.

SPEAKER_02 55:07

I'm gonna ask you a bit of uh intrusive question. You don't have to answer it. Like I mean, how long did it take you to earn that hundred grand that you used to earn when you were HOD?

SPEAKER_03 55:21

It's a good question because I mean why also I wouldn't say it's a cushy job, but you have surety of getting a hundred grand a month into something that you know you don't know. Yeah, and a pension. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:35

And sick leave? Yes, no, there were a lot of lots of perks, but I mean I was 23, 24, somewhere around there. I'm not a I'm a very ambitious person. I want to grow. I want to experience life. I want to if I stay there, what the hell am I gonna learn? In fact, the last year that I was, there were so many comms of dentists, I wasn't even working. So you wanted to learn.

SPEAKER_03 56:00

Learn, but also grow in life. Like From other aspects outside of dentistry. Yeah. Outside of Ermelo. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:09

That's the other thing is I wouldn't I wouldn't have stayed there forever. I mean, coming from Tongard, I've already experienced the one street town kind of thing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

At least Ermelo had uh Nando's and stuff. Oh sorted Tongard, yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_06 56:20

Now I think they do, yeah. But um Yeah, so I was like, no, I'm not gonna. So I moved to Four Ways, and then uh now this stuff happened in Boxburgh. So the first three years I was driving from Four Ways to uh Boxburg every day.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

That's against traffic. That's horrible. That's terrible.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

But the hundred grand?

SPEAKER_06 56:39

Oh yeah, coming back to your question. So now wait, you want to know in private practice how quick it took me to get the hundred grand that I was getting money.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

Okay, so if ever, this is because I don't know if everybody gets to that level.

SPEAKER_03 56:51

So I mean because your profit margin, not your turnout.

SPEAKER_06 56:54

Yeah. So because I joined uh an established practice, it was busy. All right. So I was I was uh I was making good money. So yes, I don't regret leaving the 100 grand to go into private practice. Um remember though, with the 100 grand, you you're getting that every month, but I was literally just drawing up timetables and delegating and telling which dentist to go to which clinic. Managing. Managing. Doing paperwork, signing stuff off. Well, to some people that sounds great. Yeah, but uh when you much older, I would say, right? Because now you're a young dentist. You don't know. Now, yes, if I sit back and I compare the two, yes, I should have stayed in our Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:34

I'm just thinking now, you know, before I left Folster, I was the chairman of the medical and allied board. Yeah. I wasn't just head of the department, I was head of all the departments. I never got a salary for that. You weren't doing an official role yet. What what is that what what the chairman of what? Medical and allied board. What on earth is that? Do we'd have like uh monthly meetings? Some medical. That's why you were getting paid to take minutes. No, I used to I used to make it fun. We used to play like 30 seconds at each department. Allied board. Oh, allied healthcare. Okay. Yeah, allied healthcare.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

No, that was something that wasn't an official capacity. Yeah. I have to go back and check where my 100 grand is. But yeah, I mean, look, it it it it sounds attractive. Like and obviously now it's not 100 grand, it's probably like 200 since then.

SPEAKER_06 58:17

Because it was years ago.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Yeah, uh, you know, and it would have been nice. And Elmelo's so bad, it's not far from Joelberg.

SPEAKER_06 58:22

Yeah, because I mean that was uh you do, yes, you grow every year because when you reach the senior dentist category in uh uh Oh yeah, you move over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So because I was still junior dentist, that was the like the lowest pay. But if you stay on and then you you know seven, eight years in, you get way more.

SPEAKER_03 58:39

All the comms of guys that are watching this are gonna start applying today. To Ermino. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 58:51

But um there was a time I can't remember, uh probably like yeah, maybe four or five years into private practice, and I phoned Ermino HR again. And I'm like, listen, don't you guys have a position? They're like, no, no, we've got too many dentists now. They had a lot to you.

SPEAKER_03 59:04

I mean six in your time. That's a lot.

SPEAKER_06 59:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:06

Which you did.

SPEAKER_06 59:07

You want to go back after I was just taking a shot.

unknown 59:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 59:10

You know, just to uh private was getting a bit much. And still is much. You know? It's it's it's Tell us.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

Tell us about private practice. Like what's i I I d no I do not want to do it. I don't know how people stay in private practice as dentists.

SPEAKER_06 59:26

I think you um you adapt. You become uh numb to certain things.

SPEAKER_03 59:32

Go ahead, ask him specific questions about private practice. Yeah, go for it. What's what's your biggest challenge at that stage when you wanted to go back to to comp 'cause that's a it's a big shift. Besides going from well, well, firstly, from public sector to private sector, right? There's a whole host of different challenges you overcome. And once you overcome it, you're like, I'll never go back to working for someone else. Yeah. So what made you want to go back?

SPEAKER_06 59:57

I think it was the the surety of the month-end uh finances. So obviously in private practice, no work, no pay. And you don't know whether you have that money at the end of the month to budget yourself or to plan or to say, listen, your stuff is going to be paid for.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:13

Did COVID have any sort of No, this was before.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

Before COVID. This was before COVID. We had rid one Hafagion, specialist postodontist, and when he mentioned that, it hit me. He said, like, as a dentist, you don't know if you've made it because the next month you might not be bullying. You know, you you month to month.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:30

Yeah. Month to month, and then that's where it comes to, you know, you say the surety of getting 100 grand a month. Yeah. You can plan yourself, you know. You can uh budget, and then there's no stress. Because you know, okay, at the end of the month I have X, I can only spend X amount. Now, when you grow, obviously, yes, there's properties involved, there's new cars involved, there's new equipment, stuff. Stuff, salaries, things are getting more and more expensive every m and you're like, shit, I gotta work now to get this wheel and to pay all the stuff at the end of the month.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

And patients reviewing you on Google and and and not always good reviews.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:06

Yeah. Yeah. They all say nonsense as well. Um but uh you have to have a thick skin with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:12

Yeah. But wait, let's unpack that a little bit more. Because yeah, you job surety, you wanted to go back to that, but why?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:19

Was something going on in private practice that Yeah, I mean for many years I struggled with the the dental team. Right? So It's in your team, your staff. Remember now if you go back to the school days, I was very independent. And if I'm gonna execute something, I want to do it properly. And then it came a time where I can't do everything by myself. This is not a one-man show. And then you start relying on people that drop the ball. And for me, I couldn't handle that. That is I mean, I'm not even an anxious person, but that used to give me uh and I wouldn't say anxiety, but like frustration.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

Stress, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:56

Stress, frustration, you know? And now because you aim for something and then you want everything to be to the book, and the execution must be perfect. There's no two ways about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:09

Isn't this isn't this interesting, right? Like dentistry, even though you can be a solo practitioner, it's a team sport still. Right?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:17

Very much so, definitely. And I wanted to ask you, like, did you ever at any given stage identify what that pizza auntie that gave you 50 bucks and be like, maybe that's why she gave you 50 bucks, because you're thinking the turnover you were so busy was so high, but if maybe that's what only what the pizza shop could have been. She was being a cheapskate.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:36

Yeah, it was 200. It was you got these 200 and worth.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:38

No, maybe she sacrificed someone else's salary to give to him. I don't think she was being a cheapskate.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:42

Yeah, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:45

Yeah, but you so what staff was an issue.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:48

Yeah, the dental team. Um struggle with that a lot in in uh private practice.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:55

Um I'm gonna ask you a specific question because you know I'm in private practice, but what like what about it?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:00

Was it more so colleagues, professional colleagues, or I I I I think though, the main thing for me was and and uh you as well, I think, it's our name on the door. That reputation was That reputation. So when your staff messes up, even after you've had a staff meeting and training and lectures and you're like, You're saying staff, like what? Receptionist, assistant, across the board other dentists? Across the board. Like someone would find something new every day to frustrate me. And and it's not like I I'm a very verbal person, and if there's a problem, we must nip it in the butt. Let's sit, let's talk. Okay, clearly you're having a problem with this. Let me train you on how it should be done. Do you understand? Yeah, I understand. Okay, I'm the patient. Talk to me. Come, let's let's act this out. Do it nicely.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:50

Then when the patient actually comes, did we not you're making me read between the lines here? So I'm assuming you're talking about another dentist at this specific example you're giving.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:02

No, no, no. Uh like support staff, deception or dental assistant. Okay. So just dealing with the patient.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:07

Stop digging. Why are you digging so much? Yeah, because uh, you're trying to look for that. Are you looking for like advice?

SPEAKER_06 1:04:14

But on that point, you know, uh that's something I'd like to discuss as well, where uh the dental fraternity. I I I I I don't think, and I think they still do it a lot where they badmouth each other, or like if a patient comes to you and the work is shit and then they say, oh, the dentist shouldn't have done that and he's useless or she's useless or whatever. I I don't condone that. Uh and I think people must stop doing that. It happens a lot. Um and and we should be friendlier to each other. We're not. I mean, I know I'm there for so many years now. Yes, there's been times where I was in a jam, like for example, maybe I needed an implant component or whatever, and then yes, me and my practice manager will quickly phone Eastern Dental Studio or whatever. I've never met the dentist. I'm not on a personal level with them or whatever, but we'll say, listen, we need this healing abutment or whatever. We don't have the size. Do you have it? We'll replace it. And they've been helpful. Right? But I I yeah maybe I'm also guilty. I should take some time out to go meet the guy, you know, and say, listen, introduce myself, okay, uh we're colleagues, you're down the road or whatever. But as dentists, I think because we're dealing with so much of shit on a daily basis and your own frustration, there's no time for that social uh well-being.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

There's um like Yek uh knows uh you know Anele, uh Anele in the club, 94.7. One day I was driving to the office in Pretoria and I had 94.7 on. And Anele says, Guys, I've had the best experience with my dentist ever. His name is Dr. Naido, and I started listening now because he's talking about dentists, right? And he's like, he's the first he or she, I can't remember, but Dr. Naido is the first dentist that I've ever been to where they complimented. The previous dentist's work. Because every dentist that I've gone to, they usually say, Oh, why did you do this? Why did you do that? And she said, hat off, hats off, hat off to Dr. Naidu, because he was actually complimentary. And the fact that she as a patient picks this up, it tells you that, you know, it's a common thing, right? And patients don't look like well on somebody that's that bad mouths, their colleague.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:24

So I've seen a lot of shit work, bad work. And some dentists telling the patient that they've done a root canal treatment, charge them root canal treatment, but no, it hasn't been done. Now the patient doesn't know any better. They're walking around, I take an X-ray, there's no obturation. And the patient says, no, I paid for a root canal treatment.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:43

Norman Kai told us about this. He said, if you want to lie, if you want to be able to lie, dentistry is for you because your patient believes anything. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:49

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So but I mean even in those situations, I don't bad mouth. I don't say, listen, you must go back and fight and whatever. Look, it is what it is now. Unfortunately, you don't have a root canal treatment, and if you want to, you have to do it. I don't do root canal treatments. I hate it actually. So but high five.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

But when I see uh like good work, or you use your left hand, but I I compliment it.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:13

You know? Like if you see a very nice sealed-off root canal, I say, wow, this is brilliant. You know, it's very nice. And I also like to compliment work if you can, but sometimes the work is really bad. Then you'd rather just not say anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:26

Yeah. Yeah. Or address it directly with the dentist if you've got if you're finding some unethical stuff. Professional courtesy. What's that go? Yeah, I guess so. Courtesy. I mean, just even a rule, I mean, um a guideline on this that the HPCSA says don't air it in public, but deal with it directly.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:44

But then that also becomes a problem because not everyone is uh receptive. Receptive or confrontational or can say, listen, let's have a conversation about it, or this is what happened. They start getting defensive immediately.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:54

It's human nature. It's human nature, but also uh not everybody also admits when they're wrong. But if you do, uh it makes things more uh conducive. Yeah. All right. Say, listen, okay, yeah, I stuffed up that patient or whatever, and uh w what can we do to sort it out?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:11

Yeah. Collaborate and work improve. Yeah. We've we've noticed that Yak and I a lot also just during the podcast, like some of the comments we see and that we get are obviously professionals that are just like having a go at another professional. But I don't understand why they do that. I also don't understand.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:30

There must be something, some psychological. Probably an insecurity that they have where they probably don't know what's best for themselves or for the patient, and they feel like they have to say this thing and like bring a colleague into distribute in order to acquire that patient.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:49

Aaron Powell Are you on a big WhatsApp group with all the dentists on it, like 800 plus? Okay, yeah, because we see that that kind of stuff happening there also. It's sad. But I'm trying to change that with SADA.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:01

Uh we're trying to get dentists to collaborate on a different space outside of dentists. That would be a good idea. We had a pedal event, we had uh it's it's it's basically just to give like as you said, you know, you ask for heating abutment to Eastern Dental or something, you don't know who the person is. Yeah. To create an environment and a space in order to familiarize yourself with your colleagues.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:22

So you're personified. Hold on, hold on. To stop using my podcast to promote your side hour sleeves. Well, stop, stop there. We have to pay for this. Anything further has to be yeah, remunerated.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:32

But yeah, that yeah, that's yeah, it's a it's a good uh we should do more stuff like that. More fun stuff. Exactly. Social, you know? But yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:39

Even this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:40

Well we do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

One of the one of the yeah, this podcast, just talking peer-to-peer.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:44

Yeah. It's cool. But I don't know why there's that disconnect among dentists. Do you also experience it?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:52

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I see it. Do you think it happens in other professions? No, I I know it does because on that show that I'm talking about. And the reason why I know about this this specific Annela in the club incident so l so like uh acutely is that I ended up writing an article about this for for my my day job, talking about and it's called Don't Bad Mouth Your Colleagues. But to Yak's point, they opened up the lines to the listeners. Okay. And they said, Have you noticed it in any other professions? And people were calling in, they said, electricians do this a lot. And you would have probably experienced that. Plumbers do it. Um a lot of the quite a few doctors caught the plaque. One ophthalmologist um was was fingered for saying, Well, why did you do the other thing? But but it so it's not it's a professional thing. Yeah, yak. You mean like ophthalmologists having it probed? Yak I I mean you're 40 now. Come on, yak. Please act like an adult, please. Yeah, but maybe we just need to talk more and you know get get things out in the open. But then what what else? I mean, what's what's next, Farouk? Like you you you seem to be a person that always wants to grow. Are you tired of growing now? You wanna k what's what's the plans next?

SPEAKER_06 1:11:06

So uh yeah, plans next now. Obviously the dental practice will still keep running.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:11

Yeah, you've been practicing now what, like 15 years now. Yeah. Almost 15 years.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:16

Uh it's been a long time now. But have you overcome those staff issues? Yeah. Well, you know what? Uh there I I think I I I put because I put pressure on myself, I put too much of pressure on my support staff, and I expect stuff from them that by human nature they're not going to produce.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:38

So you have unreasonable expectations. And wait, are you saying you're also lowering your expectations?

SPEAKER_06 1:11:43

I'm not lowering my expectations, but I need to be less um invasive in terms of like uh like I I have a zero tolerance for because it my mind doesn't fathom. Like for example, a patient walks through, hi ma'am, how can I help you? I w I want to see the dentist. Are you private or your medical aid? And then you you flow from there. You make the appointment, you give the consent form. I don't understand when suddenly uh the patient walks in and then you're buffering. What what are you doing here?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:20

As in a receptionist.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:21

Yeah, or anyone in the dental team for that matter. And this I can and then I can go further and say I can understand if you were not trained and if this was not discussed in staff meetings. But then what does I mean I take out my time to do have a staff meeting. I come even earlier than I should be there, just so that we can do staff meetings. But when we're talking to the walls, then anything I say in the staff meeting just goes in and out to the other side. Because when it comes to actually implementing it, I don't see that.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

Yeah. I would never want to be a practice owner here. You have to deal with all sorts of things.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:57

So the there was uh there was one one patient that actually got uh uh I mean, he's he's you know when you would identify a certain uh personality, right? And I think generally more so your A-type personalities where everything is in order. You can have a conversation, you can be abrupt, you can be frank, everyone's on the same page, you understand, blah, blah, blah. So this is one of those patients. And uh he was coming to me for implants. And now implants is already a luxury treatment. It's normally your affluent, you know, you're uh these uh corporate guys or you know in high positions. And um I was doing uh implant impression, and at that time I don't think I had my uh digital scanner, so I was doing analog. And I took a look to my sister, but I can see now already she's because and one of my staff members told me the other day something I need to work on is that I don't realize how unapproachable or scary I am.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:57

It's not my intention. I just want the work done. Right? But coming back to this, I put the impression coping on and I turn to her and I'm like, okay, let's check the foot of the tray and get the party and stuff ready for me. And I can see this woman, she's turning blue. And I'm I'm already now getting, you know, because this guy is uh, you know, I I don't want to f up anything on his case and I don't want to waste his time. So what she was underprepared, not ready. We didn't have lab party. And she didn't order. She could have told you before you started. Before I started. Or I mean this is the other thing. You see, it goes deeper. The patient was booked, not on the spot. His name has been in the diary for two or three days already. And you're supposed to prepare. We're seeing this patient. What is it, what is the patient coming in for? Let me have X, Y, and Z. Now I can't walk around and do all of that. That means I'm doing everybody's job. And I must treat the patient. So um now she tells me why while he's in the chair. And then he realizes shit something is not right here. And he's already uh uh an ANSI patient as he doesn't like sitting in the chair. He constantly, he's like that kid at the back seat. Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are you done? Are you done? And he sits up and he takes a walk, paces, and sits back in the chair. And then uh she says, uh, I don't have lab party. So I take the pressure coping off, I put the healing abutment on, and I'm like, listen, Mr. X, uh, I I can't move ahead with the next step for you. My staff unfortunately stuffed up, we're underprepared. I see this guy, he he he swung that tray from across him, he stood up and he looked me in the eyes, and he is like, Faruk, I do not have a problem with you. I have a problem with your staff, and you need to get this shit together. And he walked out. And now you see earlier when I told you, listen, my name is on the door. And this is the and then I start feeling like a failure because now I've got someone that's I can't even use the word, I don't know if I can use the word, incompetent. Because you've been given a job description, you're not working there for the first time, it's not your first day on the job, you know, okay, this needs to be done, and you still drop the ball. And and there's no skin off their teeth. They don't lose anything. They just get scared because now shit, I'm in trouble with the boss. But they don't realize the impact now that I have to suffer for that patient that we've inconvenienced.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:29

This is why I do not envy people in biod practice at all or any practice. Because it happens everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:36

Yeah, but you I mean you told the story. I'm getting chills when you said the patient woke up and flung the tray. Because I know what that feels like. Well, I don't know, not directly. Um, but I know when a patient is upset with you and you're not you've done everything you basically can just to make sure systems are in place. And are you taking on now the responsibility and the consequence for somebody else? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:59

Yeah, but ultimately the buck stops with you, as you said. Like it's your name. It doesn't matter whether it's just I mean, maybe that patient was actually maybe even being trying to be polite to you to say it's not you, it's them.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:08

I I can tell you that was his polite way of actually and he was And what happened? Did he come back and sort of I mean his whole family comes to me still for treatment, but and and we managed to sort it out. But that for me was an eye-opener because it made me realize I can't take these things for granted and I have to be zero tolerance with my staff. So that's when I just started firing people. I was like, listen, I can't do this anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:32

It escalated. Yeah, that escalated.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:34

Yeah, I was like, listen, I I look, I would give them a chance, and then we would follow a system where there were three verbal warnings, three written warnings, and then I'm sorry, I don't want to work with you anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:43

As long as you're getting proper advice from an employment lawyer and doing things like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:48

So I mean, I it's not like uh I'm not rational. I and I know I put in the effort. I would sit with them one-on-one and I'd say, listen, clearly something isn't you're not grasping something here. How can I help you to do your job better? Because I can't do your job for you. And then I realized as you go through private practice as well, unfortunately the harsh truth is you either cut out for a job or you're not. And if you can't do it, they're not miraculously going to change and start doing it. And then I was faced with the choice. You either stay in this shit show and you get frustrated day in, day out, or you start making changes. Uh yeah, at that point, I don't think there was a dental assistant that was with me for longer than six months at a time. And then I became that person. Like talking about groups. The dental assistants have groups, and they're like, uh, oh, you're going to work there. That guy's not like in his head. There's a nightmare, yeah. Yeah, he's a nightmare. I I can't now go and fight that because that's their opinion. Yeah. But at the end of the day, I need to make sure the job is getting done. And then so I juggled with this frustration in and out. And then I realized, okay, I need to start putting some structures into place. And then the one day I remember it was a Saturday. And Saturdays I'm there just half a day. And this patient, she's an old lady. She made plans for someone to bring her to her appointment. And uh I was 20 minutes late, and the patient has been sitting in the waiting room for 20 minutes, and it was denture delivery. So I come in, I walk straight to the treatment room, I take the file. At that time, the system wasn't digital, so it was a file. And I open up and I see denture delivery. So I turn to the assistants and I'm like, where's the denture? Um I said, uh it says here, and even on the diary, the patient is in for a denture delivery. Where is her denture? Oh, I don't know. But you're the dental assistant. Okay. Now I go, practice manager. This woman has been sitting in front of you for 20 minutes. Did you not realize that she's here for a denture delivery? And where is the denture? Oh, I don't know, the dental assistant must do that. Long story short, the denture is not there. The lab didn't deliver it.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:15

Gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:16

And the lady went out of her way to get assistance and all that?

SPEAKER_06 1:20:20

I had about, I think, 10 appointments after that lady. I I didn't even speak to any of them. I just went to the uh practice manager at that time and I told her, I said, listen, I'm done with the shit. I'm leaving. I don't care what you do with the other 10 patients, but I'm gone. Whoa. I switched my phone off and I left. And it's your practice. It's my practice. Yikes. So uh I don't I she obviously rescheduled or whatever. And uh and then on Sunday evening I get a message from the practice manager and she's like, listen, we need to talk. And I thought, okay, good, this is a good step. You know. Um they want to discuss because I'm tired of always being the one to collect everyone and say, listen, this is a problem, let's work through it. It's coming from her, there's effort. Okay, fine. She quit. No, no, no. So I go in, she's like, we need to talk. I said, yes, we do need to talk. There's lots of things to talk about. Yeah, I love it. And I'm glad that you, you know, uh put in that effort and said, listen, let's, let's, let's talk about this. And she says, uh, yeah, so I've discussed it with the team and uh we think you need help. That's like, uh, excuse me.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:37

She's like, no, sorry.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:39

No sorry, no apologies, no, I'm, you know, I feel so bad I messed up that patient's uh travels or whatever. We didn't give her attention, now we inconvenienced her for another week. No, uh let's set structures in place, let's talk about how this happened, what you need help, me.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:56

I was like, shit.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:00

Maybe she's right. I don't know. It's like, it's possible. I can't rule that out. I can't be a dictator and say, listen, I'm not the problem. I'm so glad you're saying this.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:09

Go on.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:09

Yeah. So I'm like, um, and then she's like, yeah, maybe you must consider some uh what, chill pills or anti-anxiety and blah, blah, blah, and you need to see a doctor or maybe a psychiatrist. And I was like, listen, I don't need health advice from you right now. What I need right now is for us to sort out the shit in the practice. And yes, I'm not ruling this out. Maybe I do need help. I know I need help right now with all the shit that's going on. But yes, let's, let's, you know, that's when I called in the external um that uh HR manager. So now she comes and sits with the team and she interviews each one. And at that time, they we we were eight, eight people. She did the interviews, and then she does the report, and then she came back to sit with me. And she's like, listen. She interviewed you as well. Yeah. And then she's like, listen, you are steering the ship the way it should be steered. You don't need help. What you need is a new team. So I'm like, how many of them? She's like, all of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:10

This who recruited these people?

SPEAKER_07 1:23:13

Well, she's talking about it.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:18

But this is you know, he's poking, but he's he's not wrong because this is something I used to say in the staff meetings. I say, you applied for the job, and on your resume, you have dental experience. I didn't go and call you from Roman's pizza and tell you to start suctioning for me. Or J Mo's. Or JMO's and tell you to start this whole suction here. You were a qualified dental assistant. Or you a qualified practice manager, you know? And and and yes, then I employed them, but now on the job, you see the problems. But I also know that, yes, compared to other practices, uh, they're a bit more chilled. Like if they f up with the patient or whatever, it doesn't become a big problem. They're like, ah, you know what it happened, just I can't do that because I wouldn't like it if it was done to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:05

So why do you treat you've got high standards for yourself?

SPEAKER_06 1:24:08

High standards, but uh it always treats someone the way you would want to be treated. And it's not difficult to put yourself in that position. But people uh and I mean by saying people, I mean my dental team at that time have that total disregard. They don't care. It's like, oh shit, stuffed up, this guy's losing his shit again. What can we do now?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:28

So take a jewel pull. I need help. Yeah. Look, not to labor the point, but I think Yeah, definitely. I mean, you you're telling us the story, Yash and I both listening to it independently. And it does sound like, you know, you're a hard person to please, definitely. But you are in that sphere of practice where you have to have that high standard. As practice owners, we're not just managing there. You're there as a clinician, you're there to see to the electricity, you're there. It's multifaceted. Yeah. But at the same time, like someone else will come and blame you, like, oh, you hired these people. So inevitably it's your fault. I I I wish that you know, people came into our practice, and even if they were inept at their jobs, that that have enough respect for you to even want to learn and do better. They there's room for mistakes. Yeah. But in able you to have trust in them, they are they would want to learn. They have this intrinsic drive to want to get and do better, not just for you, but like for themselves as well. And continuity of the practice. But it's difficult. I know we started this whole this whole conversation um, you know, in retrospect of how are you doing with that? And it sounds like it's a journey, like you're not there as yet. I don't know if there is gonna be.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:49

So no, no, no, no, no, now we are. Yeah. Now we now we are. Uh you replace the whole team. Yes. But I and that also came and yeah, I I think I reached I reached rock bottom at that time, which is when I walked out on that and not caring about the other.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:03

Definitely. I mean f to to just leave 10 patients. It's your own practice. You switch your phone off and you leave. I could understand what she's saying when she says, I think you need help.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:12

You know what I mean? So I just want to pause there and just acknowledge and thank you for telling us that story. Because I can imagine it's probably not an easy story to tell and have people listen to, because you know people are gonna judge you when they hear the story, right? Yeah. But it's the reality that you faced and you've been through, and I'm pretty sure there are gonna be thousands of people, dentists or whatever professionals watching this and being able to relate to you exactly. Because professionals to get to where they are have to be a certain type of personality in the first place, right? Um so thank you so much for sharing that story, even though it it's potentially it doesn't make you look great. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But go on now. So where are you now?

SPEAKER_06 1:26:54

So obviously uh I had to get rid of that team. And like you mentioned earlier, I had to speak to uh HR guy first. I can't just fire everybody.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:01

Where did you get that from, by the way? The HR was part of that that the bigger team of the practice you were. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:08

Where did I find her?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:10

Um someone referred her to me. I can't remember now, but um her name is Nikki. So it's external evaluation. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Um and they do that, uh is it the Enea? Some psychological testing thing. Oh, Enneagram. Yes. Yeah, there we go. And then they they put you into obviously uh color, they color code you according to your personality. And uh she said, unfortunately, I can stay and suffer. Or you need to wipe out etch and sketch. So this was, I think, probably like around June. And then I already had that team already a build up of the uh written warnings and f ups in a file. And uh so then I was like, listen, you guys, it's not this is not working. And um I've tried. I've tried, I did everything I possibly can. I can't go on like this anymore. And um I also don't even know if I want to come back to the practice next year. So this was around October, November, and I gave out a mass termination. Um and then I really didn't know at that time whether you know, uh but I didn't have anything to pervert to. This is my livelihood, this is my income. And I came back in January that year and opened up the practice without any staff, and I realized shit. I was Googling YouTube videos and how to switch on my sterilizer, and uh it made me realize okay, the small things that they were doing that I wasn't involved in that supports the system. And then the phone is ringing.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:51

Do you think as a practice owner, sorry? It was it's your responsibility to know that in the first place.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:59

Yes. And I uh I don't disregard that. I always I thank people even I'm not always just shouting when they make mistakes. Even when we if we're having a good streak, I acknowledge that and I say, listen, things are flowing well, you guys are doing well. But there's always inconsistency. And it reaches a point where I mean as the dentist or the treating dentist, you don't have that room for error. I'm working on someone. So you can't say, oh shit, it slipped.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:34

You always have to make-the consequences for us. You can't inject one side and remove the other side. Right. You have to be consistently consistent. So at our job.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:43

I understand the nature of that then doesn't really which is why I say yes, I am hard on them, because I I expect everything to be perfect. Um but then that day the phone is ringing, there's patients walking in, apparently it was appointments.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:59

And you were alone, because there's no one, no one will start.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:02

So now it made me realize like campus days as well. And the first two patients I saw myself suctioning myself, doing everything, and then as like cleaning instruments in between. And um, then I phoned my cousin Yasmin, and I said she was a stay-at-home mom at the time. And I said, Listen, uh, she left corporate and she was at home. And I said, uh, I just need you to come mend the front desk. That's it. And now almost four years later, she's the practice manager. So she came in that day, no dental background. Right? And uh she runs the place freaking well. She's always making those cool videos. Yeah. Is that just me? Yeah. Okay. Well, most of us, most of us in the team are involved. Um, and then I ended up finding Ellen, my dental assistant, who to date in my career has been the longest with me. No other dental assistant has ever worked, I think, longer than six months. Um, she's now also going on to four years. And then uh Pranisha also joined the practice, the dental therapist. She is also there now. So it's literally just four of us, which was half of the initial amount, but we're more efficient. We're more efficient and everyone knows what they're doing and the system is in place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:17

That's no couldn't, yeah. Congrats, man. Like uh I I know how hard it is. And for you to go all the way down to an Enneagram, you know, you know what an Enneagram is.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:27

I just looked at it in a personality test, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:29

Yeah. You went down to that level to see, no, besides the competence, how people are compatible with you. Yeah. And that's it, that's the homework. I think you did the homework to in order to figure out what was going wrong and to where you got to. So yeah, well done. You took that responsibility. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:46

Yeah. Because I mean it wasn't good news. I mean, apparently everyone on the team was pink, which is like kumbaya people. No confrontation, everything is okay, hippie lifestyle. And I was the only red driver. So she's like, you don't have any support in this team.

unknown 1:32:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:05

Well, it's good to hear it all it's it all worked itself out. And working, working. Is it work in progress still? I mean, I guess it's always a work in progress.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:14

But this is why I said there'll always be, but I can say now I don't have to be at the practice and I know that they will run it properly.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:20

That's great.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:21

Yeah. So that is uh you know a good thing, um, which gives me peace of mind to actually then if I want to travel or just take a couple of days off or whatever, they're very reliable in that regard. Would I do it with my previous team? Hell no.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:34

And so you didn't it's it's not like because you worked on yourself and said, I need to learn how to delegate or something. It's now you you you just know that they're going to maintain those standards that you've always expected.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:43

Trevor Burrus, Jr. But it's never been an issue about delegating.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:47

Because I know I can't do everybody's job, which is why I even had like proper job descriptions. And from the time you come in for the job, we talk about it in the first week. What what are you expected to do in this practice? What I expect from you.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:59

Aaron Powell Yeah, but then when everybody was gone and you went there that first day, you you did realize that there's a lot of stuff that you thought The small stuff. Yeah, you could just do and it you took for granted, right, that it that it happened.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:11

In all fairness, you're right there because uh I was so frustrated with the F ups that you you do re- uh you ignore the small important things that they do. Yeah. But at the end of the day, the practice doesn't run on you being able to switch my sterilizer on.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:27

It's it's coming together at once.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:29

Coming together at once, but you also uh for me the the the biggest thing was total disregard to the patient.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:38

You know, I I would feel nice also if if that m old lady that you effed up go to her and and apologize to her personally. Say, listen, uh it is our mistake. I'm sorry we inconvenienced you, but they don't even do that. Okay. They don't go the extra mile to say, listen, this is our fault. It's like uh you're screaming off your head, you need help.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:01

Okay, I get you. So what's next, book?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:05

What do you what do you need all this time for? What time? Well, to step out of the practice, put in such a good system that you Well, what are you doing out outside of the practice?

SPEAKER_06 1:34:16

So I'm venturing out into a business. Yeah, and I've started a high protein smoothie business called Protein Pig. Um so that's taking quite a bit of my time right now as well. What is that like supplements? Protein what? Protein pig. P-I-G. P-I-G. Okay. It's um so I think for me the the the way it uh came in is uh I enjoy eating healthy and exercising and whatnot. So nutrition is uh a part of that. And I couldn't find a decent smoothie here in Joeberg. Um and then obviously the only smoothie place that we do have that's the biggest yeah, is Kawaii. And I know on their app they have the pre-order feature. So I'd be at the gym and then like 20 minutes before I exit, I would use the pre-order option. Like come downstairs and not really. They haven't even looked at the order. And now you're standing there for another half an hour and your whole morning is getting thrown off. And then uh first time I was like, ah, you know what? I'm just gonna let it slide because this also ties in with me being too hard on everything. And then it happened again, third time. And then I just sent an email to head office and I'm like, listen, maybe you should remove the pre-order feature from your app. And they're like, why? I'm like, because it doesn't work. And they're like, well, how do you mean it doesn't work? I'm like, well, I've ordered three times already and the order is not ready when I want to exit. And they're like, oh, it's branch dependent, blah, blah, blah, but we'll look into it. And then they sent me a personalized mug. What did it say? Uh it just had my name. I need help. You need help. So they sent me a mug with my name on it. And I was like, okay. And then uh and I was like, you know what, stop this shit. I'm gonna make my own. So that's where the idea kind of built up. And then I went uh obviously with this IT guy into app development and developed the app, does have a pre-order feature. Oh, you have it's an app for it. So that was the plan for uh well, I launched it what about four months ago now, and my plan for this year was for it to be app-based. Unfortunately, I don't think that's a big culture in South Africa yet. People are not very keen on using their downloading apps for everything. Downloading apps, but also not very keen using their uh credit cards to pay online and blah, blah, blah. And I didn't know this. I mean, uh I consider myself quite streamlined and I like efficiency and convenience. And for me, that's not a problem. I mean, if yes, there's fraud, but then you just cancel the credit card. Right. But it's a real thing here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:03

That's the app. Well, it's cool. For the listeners, I just opened the I mean, uh it's on the app store. It's a nice color scheme.

unknown 1:37:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:10

And it says fuel your day with fresh, high protein smoothies delivered straight to your door. Protein Pig makes it easy to order nutritious, great tasting blends that fit your health and fitness calls all from a simple and seamless experience. Yeah. Yeah. Send us the check, yeah, for the admitters.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:29

This episode is not spawned. You just you just cut that out. It's like, have you watched the video? Yeah, we just hope nothing about the app.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:38

No, I can't I can't mention this this app's name on this uh haram name.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:43

This haram. We'll get into that. Yeah. Um, you want us wanna get into that now while we talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:50

Yeah, let's let's let's go for it. What are we getting into?

SPEAKER_03 1:37:53

Oh, I thought the haram. Yeah. Well, you didn't you haven't mentioned it to Yash yet. Uh problem you had with this. He's asking he's he's gonna ask me now.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:03

No, I didn't I didn't know I was I was I was just literally saying this because of the name. Yeah. And you're Muslim. It's got pig in it.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:08

So I just I was just making a So there is a backstory to that, which you can adapt to. Or if you want to, that is.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:16

Um We can cut it out if you want.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:18

Yeah, but obviously uh yes, the Muslim community is not taking too well to the name. Um but it's not the intention.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:26

Uh does it contain any porcine product? No.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:29

No. No. We don't even work with any meat. It's literally just whey protein.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:34

Uh just milk derivative, no. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:37

Your whey protein, and then everything else is fresh uh v uh fruit and vegetables and Greek yogurt and so there's no um there's no meat handled anywhere. But uh So why why then pig? Why protein pig? So lots of reasons. Uh I mean I was thinking about what to call it. Protein had to be part of the name, obviously, because it's a high protein smoothie service. And then uh I thought, okay, fine, I think pig sounds nice. And I like it. And I well, like I said earlier, we grew up with a lot of cousins, and if you don't, if you're not fast enough to eat something, it's gone, and then we would call each other pigs. Your pig or whatever you ate this, it's not yours, your pig. Um you do something filthy, call each other a pig. Um and then obviously the PP, protein pig. You know, it it kind of it flows, it's memorable, and it's not your average. Yeah, and it's not your I mean, usual uh everything with smoothies now, nutrition is leaves and organic and you know. So it's completely different, complete different direction. And the main thing for me is it's disruptive. I like that. I like it when people are irritated.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:52

But are you are you marketing it to a specific community only or well, active individuals.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:57

But yes, of course you get Muslim active people as well. People that are running or cycling or going to the gym. Yes, there's lots of Muslim people that do that. But what if I had to ask you, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:40:06

How are you attached to the name or you like being a destructive more than you're attached to the name? Because let's be honest, you just you just said it yourself. There are active Muslims. So you you you know you're gonna be excluding that audience from Yes, but see not just I can't I can't disrespect someone's stance.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:30

If you're an active uh Muslim and you tell me, listen, I think your smoothies have a good concept or whatever and they're nice high protein, but I I I really don't want to support your business because of the name. Okay, I need to respect that. That's your opinion. I can't force you now and tell you buy the damn thing or don't tell me what you think about my business name. I have to respect it. So uh on the flip side, uh it's been very receptive with my target audience. So they don't have an issue with it. It's flowing quite nicely. Um but this is now uh uh not specifically protein pig. This happens with everything in life. And especially on the internet.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:13

Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say, I mean, that's just it's when something is public, yeah. You uh at the mercy of the public.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:20

So they're all gonna have an opinion, they're all gonna troll, they're uh they're gonna hate. It's part of the territory. Yeah. Yeah. Look, uh uh uh uh to be a bit uh a bit more serious as well, as a business plan, this is going to be a constant problem. So for example, if I want to grow the business to a global level, obviously Saudi and places like Dubai are not gonna be receptive. Um you would think so in today's day and age because things are so westernized and modern that it shouldn't be a problem. But unfortunately, some cultures are a bit more sensitive to this. So then your business needs to adapt to that.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:56

But when it's established, then yes, I can look at changing the name. I mean, there's so many freaking animal names with pea. I can call it protein panda, protein pigeon, protein parrot, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:04

You think panda sounds nice. Like kung fu panda. Yeah. It's if yeah, you might get cancelled. Maybe people will think there's actual panda in it.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:12

But the but the thing is, uh for me, and yes, you're right, I want to stick with protein pig because it's disruptive.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:19

I get that. I get more of that undertone coming from.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:23

And uh once it's established, and then you know, uh for example, if we open in Dubai and I call it Protein Panda, you know it's from the same company. But now we're just changing the animal for comfort. There's still no meat involved anywhere. It's not logical. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:43

You could call it protein peacock. Peacock. Uh like S NP. Like a chickpea. Yeah, anyway. So we're just brainstorming there. So how's it doing actually? You said you're talking about it.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:58

That's why that's why I said um um uh the uh my plan was to have it app-based, but since we launched the app, I realized South African market is not there yet. So it's being s I wouldn't say growing fast, but I mean with any business, and I've just launched four months ago, it's it's it's getting there, but I need to give it the energy it needs, and I now have the opportunity for storefront, which was not part of my plan. This came to me. Um so now I'm following that project. But storefront is an actual location store.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:33

So we're busy with the design concept and whatnot for that. And it made me realize, after being told, because obviously I had to look into it like why are the sales not as fast as I would expect them to, because of the convenience factor. And uh it's because of the app culture in South Africa. Uh I I think the concept is a lot more conducive to Europe and USA. And South Africans are unfortunately not there yet. But for me, it's still confusing because they would trust, for example, Uber Eats. You're still paying with your credit card on there, you're still ordering online. Yeah. But I don't know, it is a misconception. It's uh there's somewhere there's a disconnect to the thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:10

No, I mean, uh look, I like I order pizza from Uber Eats, but I hardly use the Pizza P the Pizza Places app. Just because it's just more convenient for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:19

You know what I mean? It's all centralized. All centralized. You know, one you mentioned it to me previously, but then one of my patients asked me, where's the store? She thought of my thing. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think you told me about it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:32

She commented because we had at one one of our posts was uh to give a bit of background and say that Protein Pig was founded by a dentist. And uh she says, Oh, it's Dr. Lindy's.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:42

Yeah. And then then I then so after you telling me that, I don't know whether it was corrected or not, but then she has where's your store? And I was like, What's it I don't I don't have the store, correct? And uh told about your thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:55

Yeah. So it it we we're getting there. Uh is it gonna be? Bedford View. Uh uh Bedford View, yeah, but I can't disclose exact location right now. We're still busy with the lease and stuff like that. But uh design concept is flowing. Um so I think then obviously people will be more trustworthy when they see okay, it's an actual place and you know, as opposed to but then coming back to your thing about ordering on Uber Eats, from the business perspective, uh you uh I mean they take a percentage of your orders. Yeah. It's quite expensive.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:27

People need to look at what that markup is.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:29

Yes, which is why I have my own app, because I'm not sharing my profit with another company. But uh I mean, even our smoothies as well, we use premium ingredients. Uh the cost on making one smoothie is already high. So now you've got a small margin where you can make your profit and you've got to share it with a middleman. It doesn't really add up. But you're right. Uh for South Africa, some weird reason they don't mind uh Mr. D, Uber Eats, and stuff like that. But when it has to come to getting the actual stores up, that's Yeah. And you're in this alone. Do you have a partner or so my accountant is uh a business partner with me. And uh That's advantageous. Yeah, very because there's like a lot of stuff I don't understand coming from a dental background that he knows, especially with business registrations and stuff like that. So he handles all that kind of stuff and the finances. Um and then I'm basically the the brain behind the concept and the you know moving forward and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:31

So wait, wait, so uh as you can see, I don't go to gym now. So what don't so what are people that use your are gonna what are their customers gonna do with this? They're gonna what's the plan? Like order a protein shake. Order protein shake. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:44

Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:46

Yeah, yeah. So uh look, uh the we're gonna grow into a lot of other products, but the whole aim is to uh I mean you you I I think you're quite a smoothie guy as well. You have I've seen you a couple of times with your kawaii smoothie. I love, oh yeah, I love smooth. So what do you normally get from there? Plant peanut butter bum. Okay, and how much of protein is in it? I don't know. See? So calories as well. You didn't just did a workout. How many calories is that smoothie? How much protein are you getting out of it? So obviously, if you're maintaining it, he just does this for vibes, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:23

He gets the the Yeah, I'm gonna sorry about Bali actually.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:27

I mean I just I just came back from Bali like a month ago. Yeah. They've got their own, so Grab, it's a huge Asian market. Yeah. It's like an Uber Eats. Yeah. But they've got a specific um protein division. Yeah. So I mean, this you can order like a like a two pen plug of Grab, or you can order like anything, absolutely anything, but they've got their own protein like division. So it's a big market overseas.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:53

It is, but I mean, in uh overall, uh fitness lifestyle is still a big part of it. I mean, yes, people some people train and they at the gym religiously, but they're stuffing up the nutrition. And the nutrition is the important part. Yeah. So uh That's what Ryan says, Ryan Noch. Yeah, because it's it's uh you gotta um understand your macros. What you how much of protein you need for the day according to your weight. What are you doing? Are you bulking? Are you trying to cut? Are you maintaining? What exactly are you doing? Uh people are not going into the depth of it to say, okay, listen, uh for example, I'm 70 kilograms, I need uh what 1.5 grams of protein per uh kilogram. So at least 140, 150 uh grams of protein a day.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:40

So how how are you set differently to anybody else? Okay, you so let's just say I want to order advantage right now for protein pig. So what I do I give you all my details and then you structure a protein for me and then deliver it to me?

SPEAKER_06 1:48:54

How do we can do that, yes. Yeah. That's not uh that's not a problem. Um but that's why I'm saying this has so much potential to branch out into different departments. Um but I did uh I have um vetted by uh Lara Di Alessio. She's a registered clinic dietitian. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:12

She's pretty uh popular in the diet. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:15

But just explain to me, t what what's gonna happen? Like if I want to use protein pig, what do I say? I just want to I want your milkshake or I mean your shake or what what is it?

SPEAKER_06 1:49:25

So yeah, that's a good question because right now people still don't have that understanding. Yeah. They don't realize that it's a nutrition uh-based uh product, and you need to have that education or information. And we don't mind giving that to you, but you need to have a goal. And you can also reach out to Lara, who is our clin uh clinical dietitian, and she can draw up a whole nutrition plan for you. So, right now, though, we are getting a lot of people who are ordering because of flavor. They just want to taste, okay, this tastes nice, I'll drink that. Yeah, but why? Are you drinking it? How many how many grams of protein do you need for the day?

SPEAKER_02 1:50:04

Why do you have protein shakes, yeah?

SPEAKER_03 1:50:07

From muscle detention, more especially. Yes. I wouldn't say muscle growth because who told you to take it? Elton.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:18

Have this and you're like, okay, fine, let me have it.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:20

No, look, from a from a professional perspective, yeah, before Everest, I had to see a dietitian and all of that. And they were like, these are your goals. You need to actually have a certain amount of protein and carbs and macros and all of that. But it's showing you. But you can't. I mean, you live a lifestyle here in South Africa. You can't go measure everything and No, of course you can't.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:40

But right. You can. Why not? I measure Initially you can, but it does become nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:49

I still do one meal a day, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:51

Okay. You need to put on more muscle, actually. Yeah, but you're not resistance training.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:55

I don't do any I need to start. And I need But the point that Yak was making is you can't measure, but you can. Like there are people that measure things. You can. But you're making it convenient now. Convenient. I still want to hear how you're making it convenient because you're not telling me that part.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:09

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So it can't be convenient for you if you don't already have an understanding of your own nutrition.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:13

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:14

You have to know, okay, my my weight, what where am I going? What am I doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:51:18

Aaron Powell So I've got to be one of those people that are into protein checks before I come to you.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:22

No. Not not necessarily necessarily. Look, it's uh fitness is a lifestyle.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:28

It's not just rocking up the gym and saying, oh, I've trained for 30 minutes, now I can do whatever I want. No. The science behind it, okay. Um, for example, someone overweight once now go to the gym, they train for half an hour, but then they go and have two kawaii smoothies or kawaii breakfast or whatever, and then they don't track what they're eating for the rest of the day. But in their head, they exercised. And then two months later, why am I not losing weight?

SPEAKER_04 1:51:55

Yeah, get all that.

unknown 1:51:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:57

Get all that.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:58

So if you if you if you're initiating uh a fitness lifestyle for yourself, you have to start with your goal. So if you're saying, okay, I want to gain weight, I want to put on more muscle, okay, perfect. Let's let's sit and work out your um your what you need for the day without doing anything. And that's your baseline. And now you add 500 calories more. And you weight train.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:23

Is that what you guys do now? Like we can't do that for you. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:26

But the information is on the app. So if you already have this understanding, you will know which smoothie to order.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:31

Okay, okay. So the app gives you info into what exactly you're buying.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:35

Yes. Yeah. So it tells you how much of carbs is in there, how much of protein, how much of fat, how much of whatever, and then your total calories as well. Um and we meal replacement smoothies, so I don't I think the lowest is 400 calories. So that's a meal. Then that that brings me to our pricing. I mean, we are premium priced. One smoothie is 135 Rand. And people are like, shit, I'd rather go buy a Kohai one for 60 bucks. Okay, but what's in there? What are you getting out of that 60 bucks smoothie? Ice and syrup.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:06

Yeah, that's true. I see it as a as a tailored type of provision. Yes. And I always I always wonder, like, why in the if you're talking about like uh dietetics and stuff now, why isn't the multivitamin industry also based like this? Like you go and get your bloods done, they tell you what you are deficient in, and then you get a compounding pharmacy to make you exactly a concoction of a vitamin that you can take every day. Yeah. That's right. That throws out your deficiencies. Yeah, because everybody's different. Exactly. And this is what I'm I'm this is my thinking that you guys are kind of doing. I'll go see a dietitian, I'll tell her my goals or whatever. She'll give me a printout of exactly what it is that I need. I give it to you guys. You guys concoct as well.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:50

But this is exactly how we currently, what we're offering is that if someone goes to Lara, because remember, we can't box them. This uh these smoothies we currently have, I think, six flavors. It might not be for everybody, right? And it might not suit your goal or whatever. And sometimes the ingredients that are in certain smoothies you don't like. Like recently we've been getting a lot of people saying they don't like banana. And banana is in all the smoothies because it makes it nice and creamy. But then you go, you visit Lara. Lara will draw up a nutrition plan for you and you say, listen, okay, what you're currently offering on the app is not helping this patient. Please make this smoothie for them.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:26

So maybe we cover this, but what inspired this idea? Bad service from Kawhi. Yeah. That's it. It's it's amazing, eh? Isn't it amazing? Like, okay, I got bad services from a uh uh service provider. Let me start my own damn business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:54:45

And I enjoy it because it's uh it's way different to dentistry. And it's something I've been doing for many years now in terms of, I mean, yes, initially when I started, I was also just going to you know lift weights at the gym. I didn't realize that there's a whole nutrition aspect to it that ties in with what you're doing because I'm actually wasting my time at the gym if my nutrition is not matching it.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:04

I'll be thank goodness you didn't get bad service problems. Look, I'm a dentist. That's why I studied dentistry. Okay, so that's next. Exciting times. I mean, it's four months in. Yeah, I'm in. You're already getting hate uh about the name and all sorts of things. So cool, man. Let's see how it goes.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:24

Yeah. I'm looking forward to the storefront as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:27

Isn't it gonna take up your time?

SPEAKER_06 1:55:28

Like it it will. Um but then obviously just have to get uh managers and stuff like that to just do that. But I'm actually looking forward to once it's established, I I wanna um balance my time. I don't want to be at the practice full time. So I don't even mind being at the store selling smoothies.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:46

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, back to business. Business roots. It was in the family, yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. Is there anything else we didn't cover like that you would like to talk about? Um I really am grateful again for you sharing so openly. Uh yeah, that's we have to, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:56:05

I mean, yeah. There's the whole this is the the platform for it. Yeah. Right? Like you say, uh people can relate to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:10

If somebody comes to you and says they want to do dentistry, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_06 1:56:17

Why? Ask them why. And then if they have a valid reason, because yeah, some people look, it is their passion. And that's the other thing, is your colleagues in in dental school, you realize some of them are book dentists. They're not clinicians. They they'll ace every exam writing, you know, till the day ends, but and get 90, 100%, but then you put them in the in the clinic and ask them to treat a patient.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:44

But Hannah, how do you think they know it's their passion?

SPEAKER_06 1:56:46

Like, you know, you said some of them it's a passion, but like I think it's only when you normally have a positive dental experience yourself. It kind of triggers something for you to want to, you know, impart that on others. Aaron Powell Good point.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:00

We've had quite a few guests proof of the Peter Peter.

SPEAKER_06 1:57:03

Yeah, I can't say I've uh uh look, I've been genetically blessed with good teeth, but I we were not that family that was at the dentist every six months. Yeah. The first time I actually had I think it was in the c coming back to me doing my own shit when I was a uh a student, I was in high school and at ta uh oral hygiene week that time in September, the dentist will normally give you like a free consult or whatever. And I just went and he's like, Oh, you got nice teeth, you don't need anything, but just a cleaning. It's like, okay, cool, did a cleaning, and that's it. And then the next time I was exposed to it was when I was in school. I mean dental school. Yeah, to get my wisdoms removed.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:42

Flossing, when did you start flossing?

SPEAKER_06 1:57:43

First yeah. It's first year of dental school.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:47

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:57:47

Before that, it was not a thing. Wasn't a thing, yeah. Brushing, yes, my parents were like uh on that they were putting it.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:53

But of course, I'm assuming you brushed your teeth.

SPEAKER_06 1:57:55

No, but like they were very pedantic about it, like morning and evening.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:58

They probably uh got abrasion lesions all over the place.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:02

So they were like, you know, br brushing, yes, but no one enforced floss uh flossing or you know? Yeah. And then in the first day that lecture is like, oh shit, there's plaque sitting between the teeth.

SPEAKER_07 1:58:13

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:16

No, because we spoke about that last week with another guest, uh, and I asked Yak also like if he flossed growing up and it wasn't a thing, really.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:24

I don't know. And I I I never had author as well, so I was not exposed to in and out of the dentist's office. So for me it was definitely not from an experience that I want now, or I want to make people smile or make them happy.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:39

But I like to answer if somebody comes to you and says it, you ask them why, and then you take it from there.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:43

Yeah, I don't think I would say don't do it. Because everyone has different reasons. Do you regret doing it? No, because I am where I am today from becoming a dentist. So I have a lot to be grateful for. I do enjoy being a dentist. I like it. But it's just um uh certain circumstances, for example, as a private practice owner, that makes things a lot more difficult. I mean, you can like you say if I stayed for the 100 grand, I would have been a happy dentist.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And nobody tells you all these things. Like at least somebody watching this, some student that watches this will have so much greater insight into what it entails, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:59:24

Aaron Ross Powell Uh you know, I might be going uh out on a stretch here, but I think generally as dentists, we are very stubborn people.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:59:32

So even if there is a student watching this, they're still gonna do their own thing. Um to the point where they learn on the job. I don't think anyone is really gonna back away from dentistry from just hearing me saying something later in my career.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:49

Uh well, I disagree.

SPEAKER_06 1:59:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:51

I uh like just put yourself in the viewer's shoes and imagine you were grade 11 and remember imagine you didn't have that conversation with your grandfather or whatever. Yeah. You're watching a real life dentist telling you what it actually takes to to get there and what it's all about. And you might think to yourself, okay, maybe the architecture thing is. But this isn't my point is uh I think I'm talking about and I and I and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's deterred anybody, but I'm saying there's that uh the student that's on the fence has no idea what they want to do.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:38

Yeah, but then dentist is not for those kind of students.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:41

Why not? It was I mean I did it.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:42

Look, it's a it's uh doing it. This is a it's a it's a vicious industry in terms of what you need to bring out in your personality to be a successful dentist. And if you don't have that, if you're soft natured or you're on the fence, then yes, I would say do not do it because it will eat you alive.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:04

Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. So if somebody came to you and said, I want to be dentist, and and you said why, and I answered, I said, no, I don't know, because it's good money and I can run my own business and I don't have to go on call. And I mean those are all still right. Doctor title.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:18

I mean valid reasons. Right. Still valid reasons. Um I don't know. I've uh for me I feel it's it's a very uh experience-based kind of thing. Um like now, for example, late in my career, yes, I enjoy being a dentist, but would I love to just suddenly be something else? Of course. Tomorrow, if I could do something else, or just like if protein pig flies and I can not be at the practice anymore.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:44

That's only when pigs fly.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:45

Fly pig.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:46

Yeah. When pigs fly. Yeah, but what would you do if you if if you want a dentist? Uh we once at one of the law firms that I worked at, we were having like a team building or something. Right. And uh it was all a bunch of lawyers sitting around a table talking, making jokes and stuff, and some very senior like attorneys there, like all guys, all white guys with grey hair. Yeah. They've been in the game for decades. And so they went around the table saying, What would you be if you weren't uh a lawyer? And then when he got to me, everybody laughed at they said, Hey, dentist, because I was that dentist. Then we got to this very senior lawyer, and he says, We say to him, Hey, what would you do? He says, I'd be a giggler. It was just hilarious because it's probably like coming from an old man that's been there. Was he joking? No, probably not. I don't know whether he was joking, but everybody found it funny. So, what would you be if it wasn't a dentist? Like, what do you think would be your thing?

SPEAKER_06 2:02:50

I I think I would have liked being in the entertainment industry.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 2:02:54

A gigolo.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:55

Like what specific industry acting or theater or gigolo.

unknown 2:03:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:03:09

Comedy, you know, like the the the creative arts.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:15

Yeah, I I think but obviously, you know, uh that's generally now if you straight out out of metric and you're like, oh, I want to be this, and they're like, that's not gonna pay.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:24

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:25

Or what the hell, that's not a career. You're gonna struggle your whole life.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:29

That's not true.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:30

Now we know that. But yeah, I don't know. Something in the arts. Something in the arts, but it's also uh I don't know how you guys feel, but it's very difficult to undo being a dentist.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:45

No you're asking me.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:49

Yeah, how how yeah, no, I think it is. I think you can undo anything at all. Yeah. I think we're products of undoing. I don't know why he's laughing. Yeah, he's a dentist.

SPEAKER_07 2:03:59

Yeah, but you're currently practicing.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:01

But it's easy to undo it.

SPEAKER_07 2:04:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:04:03

I mean So what would you do tomorrow if you me?

SPEAKER_03 2:04:07

I I joked about this before. I'd be a patient if I wasn't a dentist. No, I'd be. I mean, I'm currently doing it. I mean I'm doing the DJing, we're sitting here podcasting. Okay. But you're still practicing as a dentist. Yeah. But it's easy. I'm not saying it's for the sake of not being able to undo. You can still undo it. So you also you enjoy being a dentist?

SPEAKER_02 2:04:27

No. I mean, I think it's I think the question is just misdirected because why would you want to undo it anyway? Like, you're a dentist. Why would you want to undo it? Like that's part of you, part of your life. I mean, I've changed careers. I became a lawyer. Totally different. So But I I don't want to undo it because that's like an important part of my life and it's um given me great experience.

SPEAKER_06 2:04:48

No, I mean, for for example, like I want to be more away from the practice, but I also don't want to be non-practicing. Like maybe one, two days a week. Because I do enjoy the hands-on part of dentistry. And uh obviously when you have so much of years under your belt as well, that makes you a better dentist. And you reach a point where you can do it. Does it though? I I for me, yes. I don't know about you.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:14

Yeah, definitely. I feel what if you've been doing the wrong thing for twenty da 20 years? That's possible. But then you would work.

SPEAKER_06 2:05:20

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So um because now, like, you know, branching out into mainly only doing implants, I enjoy that. Uh, you know, as opposed to uh the the bread and butter stuff like fillings and extraction, normal extractions and stuff like that. So um now every time, okay, come in and uh on the diary there's like a cleaning or filling or whatever, it doesn't give me joy. But if there's an implant patient, I'm like, okay, cool, let's do this. So there's still some joy in it. But it's just I don't like the way it consumes you. And a lot of dentists stay in that. Like this just becomes they're all and then they they die being like a miserable dentist.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:03

Yeah. On that bright note. On that bright note. Oh man, uh it's been it's been a really fun conversation. I hope you have to do that. Yeah, it was. Yeah. And thank you again for sharing. Yak, anything you want to say in closing?

SPEAKER_03 2:06:15

Yeah. Thank you for sharing, especially from that that personal angle of you being a practice manager.

SPEAKER_08 2:06:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:21

We uh yeah, practice owner. We haven't had any other practice owner, I think, on the show. And Norman? Yeah, yeah. Well, you're Norman. But I think you shared with us, you know, the truths behind it, what it actually takes, what's the dark part that we've got to overcome. And uh yeah, congratulations on that for putting in that effort and doing the homework for you to get to where you are. And uh yeah, we'll look forward to seeing what Protein Pig's all about. I'm gonna try and go order something on Monday.

SPEAKER_06 2:06:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:50

See if I become a fatty. You won't become a fatty. What happens. Because you you train every day, right?

SPEAKER_06 2:06:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:56

Yeah. We're not gonna And you?

SPEAKER_02 2:06:59

Do you train every day?

SPEAKER_06 2:07:01

Uh I realize now, when I'm getting older, that my body is responding to more rest. So I I would do like a a heavy session, and then I'll take like maybe two or three days rest. But in those three days, I'll monitor what I eat. And then I don't go over my calories for those days. And I feel that's been working better. So so do you like your calorie county like Yeah, but remember now, and uh when he said earlier, it does become cumbersome to always, you know, I mean I have a food scale, and you start off with that, but now you I'm at a point where I can eyeball. I can look at a meal and I can say, okay, on average that's about maybe 600 calories or whatever. And then I can see, okay, there's a piece of steak there that's probably like maybe 20, 25 grams of protein. So this comes with your experience and nutrition.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:47

You know, you're talking about food, and as I look at my thing, um oh I'm only 19 hours. Twenty hours fasted. But I think hours, forty-five minutes, check. Yeah, that's long. How do you do about 24-hour f fast? Yeah, yeah, one oh mad, one meal a day.

SPEAKER_03 2:08:02

I thought you were fasting with Shivaratri. Shivratri today.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:06

No. Yeah, it came from the temples.

SPEAKER_06 2:08:08

But how long are you doing the one meal a day now?

SPEAKER_02 2:08:10

It's been like since f it's probably been a year now.

SPEAKER_06 2:08:14

So But you re you reach a point where you're stagnant, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:08:17

Yeah, I think I'm there now. So I do switch to the phone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:08:19

Because you're obviously not eating enough. Your body gets used to not not just use, it starts going into survival mode. Yeah. So it starts storing protein.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:28

See, I need to start I need to get more protein in. I need to like look at what I'm eating properly. But you you don't exercise. I do, like six days a week. Well, what do you do? I do cardio. Like I just I do it for vitality points. I'm on like a hundred and some seventy-something weeks a week.

SPEAKER_06 2:08:44

That's bad because you're doing one meal a day and only cardio. It's gonna wither away.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:49

Yeah. I know. My my uncle is very concerned. He said, hey, you're getting too thin.

SPEAKER_06 2:08:56

Yeah. It's just something you can eat more. Unless you you know what, when you do the intermittent fasting as well, you feel the difference. Your body, even your your thinking, your focus. Uh it's I love it. Yeah, it's it's so it's not like, you know, someone shouldn't do that, but don't overdo it. Yeah, but there's also there's there's so many ways to skin a cat, right? And there's so many nutrition tools now we can use to also stay. I mean, like sometimes, yeah, uh the day get uh gets away from you and I eat a bit more than I should. I've got a walk pen in front of the TV, I'll put something on and then I walk for an hour. Then you burn like three, four hundred calories.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:32

Creatine?

SPEAKER_06 2:09:32

Yeah, creatine is creatine is brilliant, actually.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:36

Yeah, every every other person is saying creatine is the creatine is actually very good.

SPEAKER_06 2:09:41

But I've got quite sensitive kidneys. Yeah. So I don't overdo it. I'll probably have like maybe one teaspoon of creatine, like maybe four times a week. And who told you about all this? That uh to take creatine. Um research when you read up on it, like it's an add-on option for protein pig as well. Oh really? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:01

Um but when I uh Apparently crea pure is like the creatine to take. I don't know. Can you watch diary of a CEO? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:12

But when I did uh because when I started taking creatine, then I did the baseline kidney test, and then two months into using it, my kidney function dropped. But that could also then also be But what test was it?

SPEAKER_02 2:10:24

Do you know the specific test that you took? Just a blood test of the GP.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:28

And then they show you a kid.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:30

Yeah, but apparently so you must watch this latest episode of Diary of a CEO. Well, not latest, but it's a very recent one, where this like this woman she seems like an expert on this thing, and she said the usual test for for it's a creatinine test or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:44

You'd rather ask for some other test which is uh which is m better indicative of your plumel filtration rate. And I asked uh I asked a specialist about it and they said, yeah, that test is it's pretty expensive and it's like hard to come by. So it's more accurate.

SPEAKER_06 2:11:00

But it's better it gives you a better uh reading of your But the fact that my kidney function dropped after two months of being on it, then I just started taking it a bit more. But then it also you if you're not drinking enough water, that also affects Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:11

That's one thing I do with uh one meal a day, drink a lot of water. Well I'm always drinking water.

SPEAKER_06 2:11:16

Yeah. Yeah, which is a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:18

Yeah, okay. Speaking of water, I need to make some shishu. Yeah. Yeah. So I already said bye. No, but anyway, we're allowed to that's consult.

SPEAKER_07 2:11:26

The beauty of this thing is it's like we can do whatever we can in the driveway and say bye for 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:32

Yeah, like like typical Indians. But but the beauty of this thing is we can ramble on as much as we want. But thanks, Yak, for cutting us short. We were having a moment there. No, you guys need a phone. I just need to go what's going on. No, but anyway, no, no, it's it's time. It's time to to call it. We'll we'll we'll we'll get you back after Protein Pigs had uh at least a year spelt, and we'll see how it's going. But thank you so much again. Thanks, man. Sweet. Thank you. Shot, thank you so much. Appreciate it. I don't know.