SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome back everybody. Today we'll start off this episode by reading some questions from the geriatric part of the audience. Question number one. How many fish are there in the sea?

SPEAKER_00 0:20

A lot less than there were before.

SPEAKER_05 0:23

Okay. Question number two When a young naughty Hindu boy becomes of age and he goes to the priest, why is he prevented from going into the ocean?

SPEAKER_02 0:40

I was supposed to know that.

SPEAKER_05 0:42

Well, you don't? So we'll move swiftly. They didn't teach us that at UC So just kidding, those are not real questions from uh the audience. But there's a point to why I asked all of this and we'll come about it later.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:00

Sergio Pramlow Seagull, as I call you, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Thanks. Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_05 1:08

And I think in this at the onset in a seashell, I'm gonna try and get all the puns out of the way so we we don't have to carry on with this. You wanna tell us in a seashell, a nutshell, what is it that you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Uh so I'm a oceanographer and I use satellites to study the water quality and productivity of the oceans.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

Okay. Sejl, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for joining us. The funny thing is, my cousin Yak, he's been discussing this podcast with me the last few days, and he tells me, yes, we need to make the introductions shorter. And then he goes ahead with like this random long intro. Uh welcome. Thanks for joining us. But there's a point to it that I'll uh it'll come about later. And and I I believe it's Sejil, so not Segil, but that that's we asked you off camera. Uh Sejil, why didn't you become a doctor? But also you're a doctoral student, right? So you're gonna be a real doctor soon. Well when when is it?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Uh in three years.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

So I've done one and a bit years of my PhD so far. So it's not the doctor that I think my parents would have liked me to be, but it's a loophole. So I'll be a doctor now.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

I'm glad we said that. So you you think your parents wanted you to be a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yeah, well, actually I did want to be a doctor myself. Um, like in high school, you know, in life orientation, they'll say, you know, what you want to be, and then you need to do a project based on on what you want to be when you're older. And then I gave it some thought. And then there was also an incident where this guy got injured on his bicycle and I felt very hopeless, and I thought, oh, you know, I'm I'm scared of the situation because I don't know what to do. And then that's when I decided I wanted to be a doctor so that I could know what to do in situations where people are hurt and help people, and then that would make me feel feel good. So yeah, I actually wanted to be a doctor, and I even wanted to specialize in cardiothoracic surgery.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

That's very specific.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah, so I really did want to. So it wasn't just pressure, and my parents were very happy.

SPEAKER_04 3:03

Where did the cardiothoracic surgery thing come in?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Because I thought the heart and the lungs are the most vital organs. So that's like the teeth?

SPEAKER_05 3:10

No relevance.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

No, you can live without teeth. True.

SPEAKER_05 3:14

I think the brain is the most vital too. Well, not really. We had a guest on the show. Um, his uh name was Faisal, and he brought that. Yeah. And what's that thing that he brought? It was like this homunculus. And it it's this like statue, but some parts of it are more emphasized than others. Almost looks like a caricature. But it's an order of importance as to what is needed for survival. And the mouth, believe it or not, was the b almost the biggest part of it. It's the mouth and the hands. Because if you don't have hands, you can't feed yourself. If you don't have teeth and lips and functional structures, you also can't like you know, take care of yourself nutritionally and you die.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Yeah. Unless you have someone making a smoothie for you.

SPEAKER_05 3:56

Yeah, exactly. That that homunkiness needed a bra. So Sejo, what is it that you think your or your parents think that you do? Um and your grandparents especially.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Okay. Yeah, I think my grandparents a bit it's a bit different. I don't think they think that I have a real job. Because yeah, a few years ago my grandfather's like, when are you gonna get a real job? And I was like, I do have a real job. Um yeah, but I was saying to you the once my grandmother, I got sick, and she was like, How are you gonna work now? You have the flu. And I'm like, it's fine, I can still function. I said, Yeah, but how are you gonna swim with the dolphins if you have the flu? And I was like, that's not at all what I do.

SPEAKER_05 4:38

You see, that's why I I I emphasized those questions at the beginning, and I mentioned the geriatric part of our audience, because generally people don't know what oceanography is. I mean, even in my layman's interpretation, I thought you maybe work with sea animals. Or, you know, you you're doing stuff that is otherwise considered humanitarian because you you're doing everything to kind of be preventative so humanity doesn't end at some stage. Am I somewhat incorrect by assuming that?

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yeah, I guess that's it's broad. It's very broad, the overall arching point of it. But um, I mean the ocean, 70% of the earth is ocean. So that's the heart and lungs of our planet, basically. Um so if we don't know what's happening in the oceans, that yeah, it impacts so many things, both on climate perspective, oxygen, like every second breath you take, that oxygen was produced by phytoplankton in the sea. So it's yeah, in a in the biggest sense, and also it creates food for for us. A lot of people eat seafood and rely on that. So there's many aspects where the ocean is more important than people think. Even living inland, you still are benefiting from the resources that the ocean provides.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

So, what's a day in the life of an oceanographer? What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Like, yeah, I'm behind my computer coding most of the time, reading articles, writing, coding, data analysis. Um, and then we enjoy the part where we get to go to sea and collect data. Um, that's like I think what people think we do most of the time, but that doesn't happen as often as people think. Um, most of the time is spent like analyzing that data, processing that data, and then yeah, looking at the results.

SPEAKER_04 6:24

And what do you do with that data?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

So we we analyze it and so we have specific questions before we go to sea. Um, so mine was to validate the satellites. So satellites measure light coming from the ocean, so the light sunlight reflects water into the ocean. And inside the ocean, the light is absorbed and scattered by the water itself and also all the constituents in the water. So that could be sediments, it could be living matter, and the living matters um, you know, waste. So all of those things create the signal that leaves the water and that the satellites measure. So satellites can measure that water-leaving reflectance, is what we call it. And we I basically create algorithms to measure like what that is. So I can say, okay, that's how much phytoplankton there is based on the chlorophyll use as a proxy, because they have these pigments in them, um, and that's what creates the colour and changes the colour of the water.

SPEAKER_04 7:25

So it'd be like greener if it is more chlorophyll.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Exactly. So you can see like with a beer, you can see different colours and that would have more sediments in it. Even just by looking at water, you won't drink water that's like brown or green, because you know that that has dirt and sediments or living things in it.

SPEAKER_05 7:39

So do Nani understand this when you explained it to her?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 7:43

But also what's the what's the point of it? Like why do you do why do they want to know this?

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Because satellites cover the earth like on a daily basis sometimes. Um so that helps management, like water quality management, um, fisheries management to just have a daily understanding of what's happening. Otherwise, you'll have to go to sea all the time and take the water and analyze it in a lab. That's expensive, takes a lot of time. But with satellites, you can see this on a daily basis and over large areas. So you can see how almost have a global picture of the oceans every day using satellites.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

Who wants to know about like you you you get what I'm saying? Like are big companies interested in this?

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Governments, uh private companies, fisheries, um, weather forecasting. Um yeah. I guess coming in Joe Burger's like a bit far-fetched, but uh yeah, like fishermen need to know. So, like, is there a bloom, like harmful algal blooms, tourism, uh if you want to go diving, if you want to go surfing, you want to know what the wind forecast is, um especially people at sea. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:49

So But if you had to break it down like into categories, right? One is it would be commercial interests, such as fisheries and you know, governments with regards to you know, plotting their strategies and things like that. But then there's a huge humanitarian component to it, isn't it? Because what's happening in the oceans now with global warming and you know the the the decrease in oxygenation in certain parts and like weather pattern shifting, would you say that those are the two biggest categories you could break it down into?

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah. So I for me I think climate change uh is one of the biggest topics to see what's happening like with respect to like ocean acidification, because that impacts the coral reefs, um habitats for fish, fish, and uh yeah, and but climate change is the overarching thing to see can we see the last 20 years what's been happening and what's been changing now? So that's what I did in my my master's. I use like a 20-year time series and said, okay, let's break these into groups, simplify it a bit so that it's more understandable for fisheries management, but also local populations that rely on the ocean. Um but yeah, ocean change, uh habitat destruction, loss of biodiversity, those are all things that are um overarching that maybe people don't directly look at, but need to monitor on a long time series to see that are we having the stocks that we used to. That's why I said we have a lot less than we used to, because we're getting used to having less. But if you look at a long time ago, it used to be a lot more. So we are overfishing our oceans. Um, you know, deep sea mining is a big topic now. That's also something new that countries are trying to do, but we don't even know what uh species are there, what consequences are they're gonna have, you know.

SPEAKER_05 10:41

So those are all things that are yeah, it's that's so interesting because I mean from a layman's perspective, it's almost hypothetical. It's almost like us trying to tell a patient, uh like a like a toddler, you need to brush your teeth so you're not gonna end up with DK over that lifespan of his. But you gotta kind of like educate someone. And I say hypothetical because there's a longitudinal studies, am I correct? You're doing it over like patterns of millennium, probably.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Well, we don't have that much data. So as much data that we can span back from. Um there's a lot of data that goes back maybe from the nine early 1990s or late 1880s, but that oceanographers collected, but satellites only started, at least ocean colour, from the late 1990s. Yeah. Yeah. So take us back.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

Take us back, Sejel. Um firstly I love the analogy you used with the ocean being the heart and the lungs of the planet. So I mean you al you wanted to work on the heart, and you ended up working on the heart of the whole continent. I mean the whole countr uh what's it, globe planet. And it's where Rose lost her heart as well. Oh, yes, Rose. Yeah, maybe you'll find Rose's pendant, whatever you call it, one day. Like take us back to childhood. Where are you from?

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

What did you do when you were growing up?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Um so I was born in Durban, actually, but then the next day, so I was one un one day old when my mom flew to Joburg. Sure. Yeah, so she just gave birth to me in Durban. Is it allowed even? I don't think so. The even the air hostesses are like, wow, we've never seen such a young baby on the plane. Yeah, I don't know. I was concerned about uh the pressure, but my mom was fine.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

So you were Durban born and fled?

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah. Born in Britain. Fled. One day old, yeah, I was in Joburg. And then I grew up here. Um but we used to obviously visit family in Durban, and my dad for the first year he used to live in Durban, finishing his degree. Um, yeah. And then I went to school uh here in the East Strand, and I left when I was 18 to the University of Cape Town. And that's when I did my Bachelor of Science in Marine Biology, Oceanography and Environmental Science.

SPEAKER_04 12:51

Wait, you're going to you jump. Wait, you're going to Far Segel. Like you your dad was what degree? What does he do? What are your parents doing?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

He did marketing.

SPEAKER_04 12:57

Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

And my mom, um she did like economics and worked in the family business.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yeah. So I come from a family like my grandfather's an accountant. My uncles also were like in business. So yeah, very like family that oriented in business and No doctors in the fam, huh? No doctors. Yeah. But they were very happy when I said I wanted to be a doctor. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

And then how did that dream just not happen? What happened there?

SPEAKER_00 13:23

So we went to Durban uh for a wedding. And um yeah, so my mom said, Do you want to go dive in the shark tank at Ushaka? And I was like, Yeah, okay, that sounds fun.

SPEAKER_04 13:33

When is the cinematic or no?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

It was I think I was like 16.

SPEAKER_04 13:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Um and yeah, so I thought, okay, that sounds fun. I like doing like adventurous random things. So but I didn't think much of it. But when I was in the tank and my dad was with me and there were just these sharks swimming around, and you know, I was just making eye contact with these sharks, and I just thought, wow, this is what I want to dedicate my life to. You know, protecting these these animals. Like it just, yeah, just like the the eye contact. And that was a moment I think that uh was a distinct change in me where I decided. And I came up and I said, you know what to even call someone who studies the ocean or things that live in the ocean? And they said, Oh, it's a marine biologist. And I said, Well, that's what I want to be. And they were all so disappointed.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

My grandparents and my parents are like, Oh no.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

You shouldn't have taken her to that wedding. That's why you don't go to wedding exactly. You might lose your career. That wedding might have changed your life, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:27

So then you apply every where where where do they do marine biology?

SPEAKER_00 14:30

So I only applied to UCT.

SPEAKER_04 14:33

Why?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Because it's the furthest from Joe Burg.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

Okay. No, it's a good, nice, honest answer, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

But they actually do offer it also at Vitz and UK ZN.

SPEAKER_04 14:44

Okay. So why did you want to get away from Joe Burg?

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Um, for freedom.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

The long flight to freedom. Yeah. Just because I mean, yeah, I'm I was at the stage I was the only daughter in the or granddaughter in the family, and I was very like there were my parents and very overprotective.

SPEAKER_04 15:00

Yeah. So typical Indian household family. Yeah. Okay. We know about that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah. So I think it's quite common, especially in South Africa.

SPEAKER_04 15:08

I don't blame them because yeah, there's Imagine Yak went all the way to Mauritius for a year, went back onto another now, but uh mine was exile. It wasn't like choice. The parents got rid of him, not the other way around. Yeah. Okay. So then how was UCT? Did you get in?

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Well, yeah. So I only applied to UCT uh because I was like, I want to go there. That's and it's the best, I think, in Africa for oceanography as well. And my mom didn't tell me, but she applied for me for medicine at Pretoria.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Without you knowing.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Without me knowing. She just came one day and she's like, Congrats, you got into tux. Really? Okay. And then I was like, but I didn't apply. She's like, yeah, I applied for you.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

Um You see, this this whole time, l let me just tell you, I was thinking you just didn't get into medicine.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

No, yeah, I could have. I yeah, I could have done medicine. I but I didn't even want to apply because I was like, um, so they thought that I would change my mind, I think. Because when I told them I want to do marine biology, they thought, oh, you know, she'll change her mind eventually. Uh and then uh trick came and I got like, I don't know, eight A's or something, and then they said, you know, you can't waste your A's. You have to do medicine or arterial science or engineering, anything else, not um marine biology.

SPEAKER_05 16:21

Yeah. So this is the second time your mom kind of threw you in the deep pen without your conflict. Yeah, the first time Day one of you caused it. A baby and then well, medicine now. Because you didn't know about it.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

No, I didn't know about her applying.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

So tell us about that day she comes to you and says, Congrats, here's a acceptance letter.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

And I said, But I didn't apply to that. And she said, Yeah, I applied for you because, you know, I thought you'd change your mind and you had to have a backup plan because they thought they could convince me to to change my mind back to medicine. But I was like, sus, you know, dead hold dead fast on the doing marine biology and and only at UCT.

SPEAKER_04 16:57

Um did that cause any trouble at home?

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Yeah, it was hard. I mean, that period was like a really hard period. Um because they really were, it was like important times to decide what you're gonna do for the rest of your life. And you know, we had talks on my dad was like, Yeah, but what if you want a family one day? You know, you're not gonna be able to support them. Um and I was like, Well, I don't even know if I want a family. I'm 18. Well, I was 17 actually. And I was like, well, I'm not gonna live my life for kids that I don't even know that I want. Um and yeah, I also everyone kind of told me not to do it. Like even my teachers who were teaching me about geography and I really loved the class. And I said, Yeah, I want to, you know, do I want to study environmental science and marine biology at UCT because that's what you did. And he said, Don't do it. You know, there's Why there's gonna be a reason. Because it is really hard to get a job afterwards, and it the jobs are very limited and limiting. And you kind of, I don't know, to be successful, you have to really be the best. It's a very competitive.

SPEAKER_05 17:59

Why did you do that? What did you what do you mean by successful?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Is defined by I don't know, everyone's idea of success is different.

SPEAKER_05 18:06

So what is yours?

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Mine is happiness. If you're happy, I think you're successful. Yeah. But happiness doesn't put food on the table, as my family says. So yeah. But yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

But that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah. It's a waste to do a BSC. Yeah, don't waste your time on it. You only get to do a BSC if you can't get into medicine. And uh but I didn't know this.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

So this episode we'll call it Why Did I Not Become a Doctor? Because you you had the choice and you just didn't. Yeah. And then surely, like, if you if you persist with this BSC thing, are the folks now starting to say, okay, well, who's gonna pay for it and things like that?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Or Well, yeah, he did say that. He said, Okay, well, did you save for UCT? Who's he? My dad.

SPEAKER_04 18:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

And then he wrote down, you know, this is the cost of staying there, the food, all the time.

SPEAKER_04 18:54

But if it was medicine, you wouldn't have had that talk. You would have gotten a car even. And a submarine.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

I'm sorry why I didn't get a car. I got punished with things.

SPEAKER_04 19:04

Okay, so you had that talk with you, and you and what w what do you do then?

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Like, so I yeah, I gave it a lot of thought because then I said, Yeah, you know, I guess that makes sense. And and uh yeah, I I do want to be financially stable at one point, but I thought I'm not gonna live my life like doing a job to get money so that I can have two weeks of nice vacation. Yeah, my mom said, Oh, you can do this and do marine biology as a hobby. And I'm like, that's that's not a thing. Yeah, you can't do marine biology as a hobby. Um so yeah, I gave it a lot of thought and and I I did say I was like, you know, I've I've been very fortunate to be in the position where like my parents didn't grow up so well off, and especially my grandparents, they worked really hard. And I guess I understood that perspective of, you know, my parents working hard to give me everything that they didn't have growing up. And I grew up quite comfortable, and that's why maybe I have the the privilege of saying I want to do something I enjoy, because that is a privileged position to be in. And I think that's also why they pushed for me to do something so that I could be financially stable, and especially since my dad's saying if you have kids one day, you want to be able to support them, because that's what he did for me. Um so I did feel a bit selfish choosing to do marine biology. Um, but I said I want to do something that I love every day. You know, I don't want to be doing something that to get the money to do something that I love. Um and eventually I said to them, you know, I can do uh m medicine or actual science. Um, and then I'll be financially stable, but I'll be doing it for you. I'll be doing it for you, you, mom and dad. And I'm I'll be happy doing that because that's another type of service that is worth it.

SPEAKER_05 20:53

Is that a reverse guilt trip?

SPEAKER_04 20:55

No, because people you you're a really mature kid. How old were you in mature? Yeah, I was just really good at guilt tripping. No, because you had a lot of foresight, man. You're thinking ahead. Seventeen, huh?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah, I was seventeen. Because I always thought um, yeah, you know, with all these projects in life orientation, they say, Oh, what's your 10-year plan?

SPEAKER_04 21:14

And then I, you know, drew out a 20-year plan of Okay, I didn't know we didn't do life orientation when we were in school. You didn't take it.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

It was uh kind of a waste of time, but it was fun.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

No, but clearly it wasn't because you think of these things. Yeah, like so then you you reverse guild trip your parents and then they say fine, go, we'll pay.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Yeah, they said, Oh shit, I don't want to, you know, be if if she's unhappy, then it'll be our fault.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

Blame us and we curse for the rest of our lives and she'll leave us and go to the ocean. She'll invite us to the wedding and all these things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Let her be poor and happy, it's fine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

So I think, yeah, I think that also they thought, okay, she'll figure it out, you know, let her make this decision. And then they said, Yeah, we're sorry, do what makes you happy. That's the most important thing. But they also got a lot of other people to speak to me, like they told my uncle, speak to her, knock some sense into her. This is a big decision. And um I did think of what they said a lot, you know, like whenever there were challenges in my career, I thought, oh crap, they were right. You know, what if they're right? And it also maybe drove me to be more successful because like yeah, to do my best, because I was like, I can't let them be right. Yes, yes. And then I, you know, struggle. So it almost like drove me to try my best to make it work out.

SPEAKER_05 22:24

Because I didn't know you can't say told you so.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 22:27

But if we if we were to explore, because we've spoken about this a lot as well, but if we had to explore that broader theme, and I know I'm asking you something now that is hypothetical again, it's not like there's a right or wrong, isn't there? Or is there with regards to with regards to what the intention was for you? I mean all of those motivating factors w were are things that they want for you as a kid to be as successful as you possibly can be. But it was just with the information that they had because they grew up that way. And they knew that you needed to get into a job that will assure some form of employment and you know, well-rounded structure of life as you know, what it is to be having quality of life and your financial stability and all of that stuff. Those are the factors that they had.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 23:16

And then we exposed to a whole new aspect that also then they put us into because we went to like private schools and we exposed to different cultures and stuff. So what is what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

No, that's I think that's true.

SPEAKER_05 23:30

Um What I'm also just getting at is um Mrs. Promlock, I'm no way Taking sides.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Yeah, taking sides. Yeah, no, I think I do understand that perspective um for my parents. And and I think for everyone when they choose a career. A lot of people choose a career for financial security, and there's nothing wrong with that. You know, like and there's points in my career where I'm like, oh, maybe I should have actually chosen something where I can be a bit more financially stable because it was it is hard. Um but it's yeah, it's not wrong to choose uh anything based on the as the only parent in this at this table.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

I can tell you, I've because I thought about this recently, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:14

I I think uh look, I can totally understand your your folks. They want the best for their kid and in their experience that would give you the best.

unknown 24:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

You know, it's not like they wanted you to be a doctor so they could go and tell their friends, hey, my daughter's a doctor.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:28

You know, f to to show off or something. They really were thinking about you. And I always thought to myself that I want my daughter when she grows up to be happy, right? But then I I was also asking myself, well, what is happiness?

SPEAKER_05 24:41

You know, does it is is job security happiness or is doing what you want happiness, or what if she wants to be a podcaster and have absolutely no sponsorship, so she's doing it for free. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

She might end up like me. That's not that's that's well, that's happy. I'm happy. But yeah, so I can just say, like, you know, big ups to your parents and also well done to them for clearly they supported you afterwards. So tell us about that. What happens? You go to you go for freedom, how's the freedom?

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Um it was initially I was like very excited, you know, UCT.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

From Boxburg to UCT. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Uh and then Boxburg. Unboxed. No.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

A boxed bird. But what no, but weren't you in Boxburgh or something? No. Where were you? That was prof from yesterday. No, but didn't you? Where did you fly from from Durban to at the age of one? To Joebook. To Joeburg, and then where were you staying?

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Uh we stayed in Bears Valley.

SPEAKER_05 25:29

Oh, why did I hear Boxburg? Okay, that's weird.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah. No. Bears Valley.

SPEAKER_05 25:33

Bears Valley is like not too far from Bedford View, it's down the road.

SPEAKER_04 25:37

Gosh, man. Okay. That's so weird. Okay, but anyway, go on.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:41

Um caged bird to uh UCT.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

But maybe I should also mention um yeah, you know, you said uh my parents wanted the best for me.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Um, so they wanted me to be okay when they weren't around anymore. But I also got told by my teacher and also people who know someone who tried marine biology and said, Yeah, it's impossible, you can't get a job. But just m one person supported me, and that was my best friend's mom. And she said, That's a great idea, you know, do it. Um and I just needed one person to say yeah. Like what did she?

SPEAKER_04 26:14

Was she white? She must be a white lady.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

It's funny. We all get that joke, right? Like you'd have to be a white lady. Yeah. Just follow your dreams and do what you want. Yeah. But that's the goal. That's the dream. That's my dream, to be able to tell my kid, just do what you want. Do what you want. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

And be more like a white parent.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Yeah, because you know you know and use it as expressed in this episode.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, tell us about Cape Town.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

So yeah, Cape Town first year I was at Tugwell residence. So I had like, you know, very comfortable here, have my own room, Tagwell res, you know, sharing a room, very small room with another person.

SPEAKER_05 26:52

And then that's on main campus, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Uh lower campus. Yeah. And then there's like 20 other girls in the corridor, sharing one shower and two toilets. You know, like I went from comfort to like, yeah, you know, this is in student life. And first year was was tough, I think. That was a big adjustment for me, not having my own space and only being able to study at the library. And yeah. But in the beginning I was very happy with yeah, freedom. But then you notice, okay, I should actually be more careful because maybe taking that taxi to the old Piscamal wasn't the best idea, you know, because then you get an email from the university saying girls were kidnapped, so please don't use the taxis. Maybe taking the train to Misenberg to go surfing it was fun, but maybe it wasn't the best idea because the next day on the news someone got stabbed on the train. You know, things like that. So I realized, okay, I have all my freedom. So you were surfing, were you Yeah, that's yeah, that's also why I wanted to go to where did you learn how to surf? When in Durban, whenever we'd go visits and uh weddings and stuff.

SPEAKER_05 27:51

That that morning before she left my baby.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

It was a water bird. We would go often for for family things and I would just squeeze in uh uh surfing lessons and stuff. So while I was in high school, I was learning how to surf in Durban. But then it's hard when you don't get to practice every day. And also did my scuba diving course in Joburg. Yeah. So like I still tried to, you know, have that link with doing ocean things even though I grew up in the world. The fun part of the ocean. Yeah. Yeah. Even though I lived here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:23

How was the BSE degree then?

SPEAKER_00 28:25

It was good. I loved it. I actually enjoyed every single part of second, third, and fourth year. So my my parents said, okay, fine, go study um marine biology on condition that you do environmental and geographical science also. So then I was like, okay, fine, I'll do that if that's the condition.

SPEAKER_05 28:43

Compromise? Yeah, wait, where did that come from?

SPEAKER_00 28:46

That's the only one where they thought you could get a job.

SPEAKER_05 28:48

Like, so they did their research as well then.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

They applied for her to study medicine.

SPEAKER_04 28:52

Clearly they would have done their research and this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Yeah, because then you could do environmental impact assessments for businesses or work and companies and do things that are like, you know, work for a corporate still. But I wanted to do marine biology and ocean and atmosphere science. So then I was like, okay, well, then I have to triple major. So then I did that over for four years.

SPEAKER_04 29:12

And then so when you're doing the degree, what it what is it called? Like what's the course called?

SPEAKER_00 29:17

BSc in marine biology, oceanography, and environmental science.

SPEAKER_04 29:21

Okay, and then do you do go on like field trips or excursions and stuff?

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yeah, yeah. We used to go to rock pools around Cape Town, and I also volunteered at the To Oceans Aquarium. So I also like learned some things there. And then what like you know, it's nice to also communicate to kids because they get so excited. So you also remember that kids are so excited about.

SPEAKER_04 29:40

You've got to give talks at the aquarium and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah, well, you at the I was at the touch pool.

SPEAKER_04 29:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

And then you say, Oh, this is a sea urchin, this is an ananme, and then you explain about that and the different algae and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 29:51

Cool, man. That's pretty awesome. And the weekends. So it's got a hole in it. Um Yeah. Anything you hated in or didn't like in the degree?

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Uh I didn't really like the first year subjects because that was very broad. So it was like one year of chemistry, one year of like pure physics. Um But then as you got if you got through that, then second, third year you could do oceanography principles, you know, zoology, and then the things that I was really interested in. And that's what I really liked. Um and I also did like a semester abroad to California, to Santa Barbara. Because also I and then how I chose which university to go to, I just measured Sorry, that's Seaworld, right? No. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 30:36

I was in Florida. No, that's in Orlando.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

They have, yeah, but I was at the University of California. Okay. So I got to choose which university in California to go to. So they have like UC Berkeley, UC Santa Cruz, San Diego, Santa Barbara, UCLA. Um so I just measured the distance between the university and the beach, and then the one with the shortest distance I chose that.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

Which was Santa Barbara.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:00

And how was that?

SPEAKER_00 31:01

That's also pays for that. The university.

SPEAKER_04 31:04

Nice. Nice exchange program. That's so cool. Yeah. Is that your first time in the in the States or not? No.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

It wasn't my first time, but it f um it felt like a movie. You know, it was exactly like the movies with the sorority houses. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:18

There's a there's a series, Santa Barbara. Well, tell us of our lives. Yeah. Yeah, but we want to know the real life yet. Not yet. So tell us.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Well, um yeah, I when I did my exchange, I tried to find someone who was also on exchange so that I can get like a three-month um contract. And she didn't tell me that she was actually living in a house with 13 other well, I knew that 13 other goals, but they were sorority goals. So I got thrown into like I wanted the full experience, the full California experience. So it was, you know, most of the house were sorority goals and I used to buy pop ones.

SPEAKER_05 31:53

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:55

Like house parties and things.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Yeah. One day I just got home from gym and then there's just full like people overflowing out of our driveway. And I was like, oh, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_04 32:04

So it really is like the movies.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Really, yeah. Really, really like that. Exactly like bad neighbors. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:10

Okay. What happens after that?

SPEAKER_00 32:13

After that, I came back to UCT for my final my final year. And um I actually w wanted to get a job straight after my degree. So I didn't think like I thought, yeah, you know, studying further, but I really was itching to get hands-on experience. So before I finished my finals at UCT, I I got a job in the Maldives as a marine biologist at a resort. Wow. And yeah. But not a dream job. Yeah, you think so. You think so. Um I was supposed to go there and do coral propagation. So, like, you know, taking corals and growing more corals and then replanting those corals so that you can help uh the the coral propagation.

SPEAKER_05 32:54

But funded by the resort, obviously. So there was like a commercial interest behind it.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Yes, exactly. But I didn't think of that because, you know, I didn't think about commercial aspects to things.

SPEAKER_05 33:04

Um Well, they were paying you a salary.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 33:06

What if the corals died? And then they're like, no, this Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

So it was funded by the resort. Um but and then they also said, you know, you need also need to have give talk to the guest and educate a bit. Um but when I got there, it the job turned out to be a bit different to what I expected. So it was less coral propagation, but more like renting out snorkeling equipment and um things like that. And then also with the corals.

SPEAKER_04 33:31

Like a glorified tour guide almost.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Pretty much, yeah. Yeah. And then also, like I was like, you know, can we tell the guests to use the sunblock that's better for the corals and not? And they're like, nope, you can't, these people are on holiday, you can't tell them what to do or what to buy. I was like, okay, well, I don't know why exactly I'm here. And every time, you know, I would want to do the coral, they said, Oh no, someone has to buy a frame like for you to do the coral propagation. So then I felt like, yeah, a lot of the aspects were a bit of greenwashing, which so I was exposed to that of like using marine biology but for a commercial interest and not just purely to um propagate the corals.

SPEAKER_05 34:12

I'm sure that was because in Mauritius they have these programs as well. So government mandated um like propagation that the resorts have to abide by. And yeah, it's all like whitewashed, so they'll get someone in to do the paperwork, but it's not actually being done.

unknown 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:28

Greenwashing, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Greenwashing, yeah. So it was uh yeah. So I was a bit disappointed by that.

SPEAKER_05 34:33

Did it pay well?

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Um no.

SPEAKER_05 34:35

Okay, not really Australia.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

I just did it, yeah, for because it sounds like the dream job.

SPEAKER_05 34:39

Yeah, and you could stay at the resort, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

No, actually. No, so we were under it was an island next to the like a more local island next to the resort. And I was staying in a hostel with 70 men.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

Seven zero.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Yeah. So they didn't tell me that actually. They said you'd be in a house. Are you okay being the only female in a house with other men? And I was like, yeah, house maximum, like, you know, 13. I've done that in Santa Barbara. And now I was living in a hostel with 70 men, and so it was like a a bit of, you know, like harassment stuff. I didn't tell my parents about that. Yeah. Um until I wanted to quit. And then it was also next to the only prison in the Maldives. That's where I was living. Yeah. So I didn't say any of this. I was like, if the job is good, you know, I'll I wouldn't mind putting up.

SPEAKER_05 35:22

So that's at the bar low. You could only do better from there.

SPEAKER_04 35:25

Yeah. But you told them afterwards, right? Or they're gonna hear this the first time on this show.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Yeah, yeah, I told them eventually when I wanted to like I was like not feeling fulfilled in this job, and I actually felt like I was contributing more, something I don't want to be involved in. Um so I told them, yeah, I think I'm gonna quit my job. These are all the reasons why. And so I yeah, I quit my first job after like two months.

SPEAKER_04 35:47

Two months or two.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

And then I I came back to South Africa and uh did my honours at UCT in Ocean and Atmosphere Science, and that's one year.

SPEAKER_05 35:56

Is it difficult to get into the honours program?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Um it wasn't no, not really. Not not uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:05

You did well though, probably in your undergrad. I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

So I just emailed the you know head of department and said, Oh, this is what happened, and uh, you know, can I come back next year? And she's like, Of course, yeah. You know, they wanted me to stay on and not leave, so so I went back and yeah, it was very nice. And that's when I got to go to Antarctica, because we get to choose like many projects to do as part of your honors, and I chose look like monitoring polar cyclones that crossed the Antarctic marginal ice zone. And then part of that you get to go to to Antarctica.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

Well the gallus, eh?

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Yeah, the S.A. Gallus 2.

SPEAKER_04 36:39

What? Tell me about I don't know all these things.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Yeah, what yeah. So South Africa has this amazing icebreaker um called the SA Gallus 2, dedicated to Miriam McKinney.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

Exactly, it's dedicated and it's only it's only one.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Yeah, we had uh one before. Yeah, but it's I think it was made in the middle Sweden.

SPEAKER_04 36:56

Trying. I want to hear for the person who went there, please. Tell us very far. Tell us about what is the icebreaker? It breaks ice. Like what is it?

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yeah, you can't really take a normal ship to Antarctica because then the ship will get stuck and or break or damaged. So an icebreaker has like a reinforced front so it can ram into the ice, reverse ram into the ice.

SPEAKER_04 37:17

So you sail on this from where to where from Cape Town?

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Cape Town to yeah, to the Antarctic marginal ice zone, so like 60 degrees south is where How long does that take? We so that was for me was six weeks. But it if you go directly and don't stop, it'll take much quicker. Um but uh we stopped along the way, so that's where Marion Island.

SPEAKER_05 37:36

Yeah, did you go there? No.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

I'll ask this again. Tell us Yeah, we just stopped you know to take ocean samples.

SPEAKER_04 37:42

Who's we? Like who do you go with?

SPEAKER_00 37:44

The ship full of scientists. So I was on the 70 men again. No, and this was a bit more of a mix, and uh it was called the scale cruise. It was a seasonal like ocean experiment. So we had groups of biogeochemical oceanographers, birders, whalers, sealers. I was part of the sea ice team. Um you had physical oceanographers looking at like waves, people looking at ice engineers looking at yeah, chemical ocean chemical engineers and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:14

Jokes aside though, what's the demographics like? Like is it mostly smaller?

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Well, it was South African mostly, and there were some internationals. And women men. Um Woman, there's a lot more women in marine biology and oceanography than there were before. So that's really cool. And my honors class was almost fifty-four. Well, actually, I think we had more women than men in that year. So this field used to be predominantly like male dominated, but now there's there's more women.

SPEAKER_05 38:40

So that was a good mix. And especially Indian women, do you are there anyone else like you that's out there?

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Yeah, there was another Indian woman on the ship, South African lady. Um cousin.

SPEAKER_04 38:52

And black woman, any black woman? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

I loved my cabin. We became very close friends, so very diverse. We had a white girl, me, and two black girls, and we became so close.

SPEAKER_05 39:02

We were like, we should be the advert for when I say our cousin, we actually have a cousin that's um she did geology. Okay. And she's at in Stavanger at the moment in Norway, which we'll get to.

SPEAKER_04 39:14

Yeah, we'll get her on the show, yeah. We'll talk about her sometime.

SPEAKER_05 39:17

No, no, not I mean we'll get to Norway. Sake part of it.

SPEAKER_04 39:21

Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. No, so tell me about this Antarctica this six-week uh is it like uh what is it was it the first time you've traveled that long on a fun cruise?

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Yeah, it wasn't uh toyright. It was like uh my first scientific expedition was that. Um so I was part of the sea ice team, so I my job was to do sea ice observations. So I only really started working once we got to the sea ice. And uh so this involved sea ice observations, which you'd be looking at the sea ice like 24-7. So we do different shifts of saying, okay, what type of ice we see, how big it is, how thick it is, so that you kind of have um a record of what was seen to validate the satellite measurements. But the main job was to do sea ice coring.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

What's that?

SPEAKER_00 40:10

So you take like a drill and you touch it to the cylinder, and that kind of spins down, so you drill it into the ice and you bring it back up and you have an ice core. So this ice core has the different levels of like the ice. So obviously the different levels of sea ice formation. And that's interesting for like chemic chemistry, so you can tell. Yeah, lots of different chemical things. Structural, yeah. So like different people wanted this, but I was just doing the physical act of collecting these cores for different projects.

SPEAKER_04 40:41

It goes all the way down to like the the the Yeah, until it ends the ice.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Well, as as long as your ice core is. So that we had like one meter, two meter.

SPEAKER_05 40:49

Okay. Yeah. And what about like um like data sampling from a historic perspective? Can you tell, I mean, each each ice layer per depth, does it tell a story like about what happened back then?

SPEAKER_00 41:04

So I guess in in Antarctica, whose responsibility is that? Yeah, the whoever's analyzing it. So for me, I was just collecting this data. But in Antarctica, I I guess you have the different ages of ice, just like a sediment core. You know, like you can age the sediment the deeper it is, and then you can tell, oh, the oxygen concentration has changed from this steps to that. Um, but that could be meant to different properties, like yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:29

So what do you eat in Antarctica?

SPEAKER_00 41:30

We had such nice food on the SA Gallus. Yeah, it was really it was the best uh science expedition I've got.

SPEAKER_05 41:37

So it's like normal food.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Yeah. Normal food.

SPEAKER_05 41:38

We had like There's a gym and stuff on the gym.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

It's a really nice ship. There's a sauna, there's a gym, there's an auditorium, library. When you get there, what do you do?

SPEAKER_04 41:46

Where do you stay? Two bars, okay, yeah?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

So I was I just stayed on the ship. We didn't go to the base. Okay. So I just went to the the marginal ice zone. So the lowest was sixty degrees south, just the Antarctic circle, and then we went back. So we wanted to see the the the area where the ice was like moving, you know, and forming, and not like the not too deep.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

And this is all uh well, you pay for your honors degree, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Uh I got a scholarship for it.

SPEAKER_05 42:11

Uh yeah. Because that's what that's a good question. Who funds all of this?

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Aaron Ross Powell So the NRF, the National Research Foundation. Um the South African government also funded part of it.

SPEAKER_05 42:21

That's not NSRF, is it? That's different.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 42:24

National Sea Rescue. No, no.

unknown 42:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:27

This is research. National Research Foundation mainly.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:30

Yeah. So there was no opportunity to actually go and anchor there at in Antarctica.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Um not on the one like I was on for specifically for this experiment, the seasonal sea ice experiment. And that's why we had a variety of other scientists on board as well, that were looking at birds along the way, whales. Um the guys also had had like tagging seals, so they'd be out with us while we're looking at ice, looking for seals, and then they'd say, Oh, there's a rust, rust seal, we need to stop, and then they'd run off. Well, get put off the ship and then go and tag the seal. So it was a variety, it was just an experiment, a seasonal experiment that was.

SPEAKER_05 43:05

Because it seems like such a way it's going all the way then, like, okay, it's been a lot of data. Looking at ice.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Yeah, ice and animals and biojacchies.

SPEAKER_05 43:14

My one of my friends, uh he's he's a fellow climber, his name is Satish Goghani. Uh, shout out to him because he's actually just became the first India Indian to solo cross Antarctic by himself. Um and I think he was on that ship, but it's it's uh it's a very unforgiving territory. Yeah. Like with you maybe not even four or five kilometers onto the shelf and you can't see where you came from. So your disorientation is like a real thing. But um also one more question about the Antarctica before we move on. There's is it correct that there's no polar bears there?

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Yes, that's correct. Yeah. That's the nor that's the Arctic.

SPEAKER_05 43:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

But we have penguins.

SPEAKER_05 43:56

We have penguins in Cape Town.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Spoiled.

SPEAKER_05 43:58

Yeah. And what happens after that? Like you say you you do this expedition, it's part of the the research. You gotta come back and now publish and put all of this data together.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Well, not for you not for my honors. So th that was what was nice, um, because they gave honors students the opportunity to get field work experience. So all the cores we collected kind of got distributed to different people who were analyzing it for PhDs or research and things like that. Um so after that cruise, I kind of did my honors presentation on the ship, and that was like the end of my honors, my thesis submitted and everything, and now was that.

SPEAKER_04 44:36

Two years.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Was one year.

SPEAKER_04 44:37

One year. What's the name of it? Do you remember the name of your thesis? Yeah, it was um probably something boring, but don't tell us.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Yeah. I was I was comparing the the the there's these products, re-analysis products that use satellite data, in situ data, and models, so that you have like a nice product to use for like mean sea level pressure. So I was using that and the sea ice concentration, sea surface temperature of the oceans to um yeah, compare the different the old product and the new product, if how much we have to change in this algorithm to track cyclones.

SPEAKER_04 45:19

Sure. Sounds so scientific. It's really cool. It's intricate.

SPEAKER_05 45:23

But then that was, to be honest, very boring. Up until you mentioned the worlds, the word cyclone.

SPEAKER_04 45:29

But imagine if you're like Imagine if you did medicine, you'd be on call treating patients, putting drips up. I'd rather be going to Antarctica. Yeah, I was happy with my choice. Well done. Okay, so what happens after honors?

SPEAKER_00 45:40

After honors, then okay, so while I was on the ship, this is yeah, a full truth. I expected that I was gonna do my masters afterwards. Um both my colleague and I, we thought, okay, we're gonna continue our masters with our supervisor. And while we were on the ship, you know, I applied for two different masters, a one-year master's program that was more catered towards going into um to get a job afterwards, or a two-year masters with the same supervisor. And uh I kind of expected that I would have the two two-year masters. And he said, Oh, I actually can't take both of you for for a master's, so you know you have to find something else.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

Find something else, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

So this was and while we're on the ship, it was November, and then you need to start in January.

SPEAKER_04 46:20

Oh, is that for an icebreaker? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

So that was very limited internet, you can't really apply for other things or look for other things.

SPEAKER_04 46:29

I hope you'll appreciate my icebreaker part. Yeah. Okay, yeah, thank God. Because it seemed to have sailed over your head. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

So used to. Yeah, go on. Um yeah, so that was very stressful. So then I went into like, you know, applying mode as soon as I got back to Cape Town and I was applying to as many relevant things as I could find. And then I also got an email from our department saying that there's an opportunity in Canada for a master's project to look at phytoplankton productivity using satellites. And that looked like amazing, and it was fully funded as well. Because I actually, when I quitted the the job in the Maldives, I applied for master's programs in Australia and Norway. And and I got them. And I thought, perfect, but then I didn't get funding to go with it. I didn't realize I chose the two most expensive countries in the world to do a master's program. So that didn't work out, and that's why I went back to UCT.

SPEAKER_05 47:23

Can you tell us more about that while we're talking about it? Well, how does it work with regards to okay, you're doing your honours, you're gonna do your masters? Yeah. That's fine. The institute will will will pay for that for you to come and and do work there. It's not but is it like you're getting a salary or you've got to get further funding?

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Yeah, it's it's a scholarship. Yeah, and it's not always a given to get your masters funded or even uh honours, you know. Usually and in in South Africa you pay for that and in other countries if you're a foreigner. And when you're a foreigner, it's even more expensive to do a master's. Um so Australia, I wanted to go to Queensland, and that yeah, it was almost like two or three times the price the locals would pay for fees for a master's. So that was out of the question. In Bergen, um it was yeah, Norway as a whole, you didn't have to pay fees, but obviously your living expenses. So the living expenses to do a master's in Bergen was more than paying fees and living in Cape Town. Sure.

SPEAKER_05 48:22

Wow. So that's believable, yeah. So they do fund it.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

So I mean, for those you need funding. So I I did an interview with FNB, because they were at the time doing um scholarships for like various various things. Um, but obviously I was competing with people like engineers and economics and things that were more directly applicable to humans. Um, so it was a bit competitive. And I only applied to one thing. So one funding. And because before, I only applied to one thing and I'd get it. So this was the first thing that I applied for and didn't get. And so I was a bit like, oh, okay. You can't just apply for one thing and and get it. That's kind of part of real life.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

Should have told your mom to start applying for other things. I would have sorted it out. Yeah. Okay, so Canada then.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Yeah. Then I did my master's in Canada.

SPEAKER_04 49:11

Where?

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Uh in Victoria. Okay. So that's um Vancouver Island. So there's an island next to Vancouver and the University of Victoria in the spectral remote sensing lab.

SPEAKER_04 49:22

Is it cold and uh Canada's huge and cold, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:24

It's uh it's well, where I was was apparently the warmest place in Canada, which for me was very cold. But it was just rainy all the time. So it was very, very rainy place.

SPEAKER_05 49:36

Unlike Bergen weather, actually.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Well, yeah, so that's where the irony comes in, because I left um after my master's, my supervisor said, you know, why don't you stay on and do a PhD with me? And I said, Oh, I just want to go somewhere warmer, you know, with nice weather and the sun, it's too cold and rainy here. So she laughs at me now when I ended up along the long journey to be in Bergen, which is the only place more rainy than Victoria.

SPEAKER_05 50:00

That is true. And then how long was Canada then?

SPEAKER_00 50:03

That was two years. But yeah, that was during COVID.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

So there there came a lot of other challenges because I was supposed to start in April 2020, and then lockdown happened in yeah, May. So I got stuck and we pushed it to start in September. And even Oh, you got stuck here? Yeah, I got stuck here. Couldn't even go. And then I was I started my masters remotely. So doing my classes from 1 to 4 a.m. in the mornings here. So I took sleeping tablets, you know, at like 3 p.m. try to get enough sleep because you have to interact with the the class. And yeah, it was and I said, you know, I just want to be in any time zone.

SPEAKER_05 50:41

Other students up from around the world.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Yeah. There were some internationals, but mainly in Canada. Most of them were in Canada, and I think me and maybe another student were stuck somewhere else. So yeah, that was challenging work starting a master's remotely. And I just kind of wanted to go anywhere in the same time zone just to have like a normal life. But eventually I got to go in October 2020 to to Canada. But then it was difficult because with all the laws there, it was very strict. You couldn't go to university, you stay in your household and only you could go for walks outside into a restaurant, but only with the people you lived with. So I became very good friends with my landlady and her friend who lived alone so she could come with us. So my landlady was like 65 and her friend was like 70, 75. So they became my my best friends in Canada.

SPEAKER_05 51:30

And that's very interesting because then now you you're there, but you're still the same situation as here where you're not actually meeting your classmates.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But just being in the same time zone was good. Yeah, of course. So that I could but yeah, it was very isolating because also having a the nine-hour time difference with South Africa. It's like I couldn't just pick up the phone whenever I wanted to speak to my friends and family. So not only was I isolated from making new friends in Canada, but also contacting people back home was hard.

SPEAKER_05 51:58

So And then you mentioned what you did in your masters. I think you heard spectrometry uh somewhere along the line. Do you want to just like I'm not gonna use the dumb it down? Yeah, unbore it for us. Dig a hole.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Yeah. So um yeah, during my masters, that's when I got introduced to using satellite imagery to study um ocean color. So that's yeah, that was when I first used satellite images. So I used that to look at phytoplankton, which is these microscopic plants in the ocean, and that's the primary productivity level. It's like our grass and forests on on land. Um, so I was looking at the timing of those blooms because one of the factors was climate change with a warming ocean, changing winds, that affects the the timing of when these blooms happen. And when the timing of these blooms change, it impacts the rest of the food web so that the, you know, the fish also evolved to um s spawn at a certain time. So when this bloom happens earlier or later than you expect, then it doesn't match with when the fish spawn. So then they don't have enough food basically, and it has a cascading effect on the rest of the food web. So that's what I was looking at in my my masters. I was looking at the entire British Columbia coast and southeast Alaska and uh yeah, looking at all these different timing indices and how it's changed over the last 20 years.

SPEAKER_05 53:22

Yeah. And the one other question that I want to ask, I mean, you're doing all of these degrees in various parts of the world. How recognized is it like if you want to move somewhere else? Or is it quite re let's just say INJ approaches you, they're like, okay, come work for us. You got a master's there from Canada. Is it really gonna be applicable to you? And I asked this because it's an important question for aspiring marine biologists to know. For us, it's so difficult. Yeah. We gotta go and get our degrees accredited in other places, you know, with with certain regulations regulators and things. Yeah. Do you?

SPEAKER_00 53:59

No. So I know it's it's har it's hard for doctors, you guys, lawyers, but for us, I think it's even better when you get degrees from different institutes because it's still applicable. Like in science and academia. It's yeah, I think a lot of people advised me to not stay at the same institute with the same supervisor, because you every time you move to a different place, you learn different ways of thinking. And that's I guess with the university, but also specifically the supervisors. Um so you kind of become more well-rounded with different views and different viewpoints because also the way people manage things in different countries is different. So yeah, I think it's more of a plus to to travel and get degrees at different places with different supervisors. It's the opposite of of for you.

SPEAKER_05 54:48

Yeah, exactly. It's so unfair. Like, you know, an Asian tooth has a different anatomy to like an African. Why is it unfair?

SPEAKER_04 54:54

Do you want to leave a country, yeah? No, yeah. Um to Canada, how was Canada? Cool, like you enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Yeah, besides lockdown and COVID, it was yeah, it was really beautiful. Um I got to, yeah, this really cool opportunity to go to uh Calvert Island. It's this small island a bit north of Vancouver Island, so it's very isolated. Um, and this was working with the Hakai Institute. Um, so it was this privately funded marine biology and oceanography institute where this um philanthropist bought an island to do oceanographic research. So that was amazing.

SPEAKER_04 55:31

Wasn't Epstein?

SPEAKER_00 55:32

No, it wasn't Epstein. But yeah, it was amazing. Um you just researchers and people who worked on Calvert Island. So I got to see really beautiful parts of Canada that like the raw and natural beauty. Yeah. Um so I used to we used to take a small boat out, and that's also where I learned a lot. Um a small boat out to sea, and then you collect all the same samples. So it's a lot more difficult than in a big ship because you have to actually be pulling the ropes and while a small and a small ship moves a small boat moves a lot more than a big ship.

SPEAKER_04 56:06

Do you take photos in like a GoPro and all that stuff? Do you have all this documents?

SPEAKER_00 56:10

I have so much footage and I wanted to make videos and I need to get to it. So yeah, you can advise me on uh video editing stuff.

SPEAKER_04 56:18

Yak's got so much footage also, he never he never puts it out there. So uh please do that, man. Yeah Sounds like you'd have so much amazing stuff. Yeah, really beautiful places. So what happens after Canada then?

SPEAKER_00 56:29

Um after Canada. Yeah, that was a long yeah. And then I came back to South Africa. Um and right after I finished my like I defended my masters, then I went on a ship uh because I did this course over like four or five months um with the European Space Agency. So it was an online course, but then as soon as I finished my masters, we went to sea and it was convenient that it was from Mozambique to Cape Town. So we did a like yeah, an at-sea component of this course, and it was on a tall sailing ship from Bergen called the Stadstrad Lemkol. Um so that's what I did immediately after I finished my master's, and it was a 10-day sailing.

SPEAKER_04 57:11

Why'd you do it?

SPEAKER_00 57:12

Because it's part of this course. So you spend four months learning about the theory of using satellites to study the ocean, and then you go to sea to collect validation data and also to see how to use the satellite data in real time.

SPEAKER_04 57:25

So they teach you about the satellites and stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:27

There's specific courses like run by the European Space Agency because they launch satellites and uh Who launches it?

SPEAKER_04 57:34

The Europeans?

SPEAKER_00 57:35

Yeah, European Space Agency.

SPEAKER_04 57:37

Okay, so it's not like SpaceX and all those things. The specific things. To take the satellites up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

Yeah. And also NASA has a lot of these satellites, NASA, ESA.

SPEAKER_04 57:48

Did you ever go look at one of these satellites or the launch? Yeah, anything. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

I mean, there's um no, not really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:55

But are you interested in that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_00 57:57

Yeah, yeah, I really like it. Like that's uh for me it was a combination. Because I always loved space as well. Um so when I was thinking, I was like, should I do astrophysics? But I I love marine biology, but I've always been interested in space. So for me, when I found out you could use satellites to the ocean, I was like, this is perfect because I get to be involved with like a bit of the space industry, but also um for oceanographic.

SPEAKER_04 58:18

So those satellites are just like they orbit the earth and all they're doing is taking images. I'm saying all they're doing, but what they're doing is taking images of the ocean.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

Yeah. Some of them have um sensors. Yeah, they have sensors and also for altimetry they use radars.

SPEAKER_04 58:33

So yeah, those are Can it live stream or Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Yeah, you can download data now from like the most recent day or hour. But it's not it's not it takes time to process, but you have near real time and then reprocessed. So but near real time can be like a day later.

SPEAKER_04 58:49

But but not anybody can just go on some website. Yeah, you can. Really? Yeah. How? Like what do you do? How how would I go and do it?

SPEAKER_00 58:55

Oh, okay. I I can show you the website. Yeah. You just need to create a profile with like Copper Nicos Marine Services, and then there's all these different satellite products. But it's openly available to anyone, not just scientists, because it's run by government agencies. So because it's run by like NASA and ESA, it's available to anyone. But obviously, private companies can also launch satellites for more specific monitoring for like insurance companies, for hurricanes, and the art there's one article that I read is it's not everyone thinks that a satellite is so dedicated.

SPEAKER_05 59:28

Like I want to know about like hair colour around the world, and they'll launch a satellite for that. But no, I think you've got to actually go and apply for patents for the satellite usage, and it's gotta be a multi-use patent. So your satellite is not really dedicated to just studying that specific thing. No, that is. There's people that rent from it.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

Yeah, and there's also different sensors on the satellite that measure different things. So you'd have the ocean colour instruments, but you'd have the sea level, like a s yeah, ocean this sea surface temperature um sensor. So one satellite hosts different sensors to measure different things.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:02

Yeah. And how like how how big how strong is the zoom on these things? Can it be like zoom it?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Can you so for mine, like the best, I think uh it's the ocean colour one specifically, can be 300 meters, like a pixel. Yeah. One kilometer, four kilometer, and then you have to land ones which can be like thirty meters.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:21

Thirty meters, that's level of um detail.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

You kind of have a you leverage, you know, if you have more detail, you have less spatial coverage.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

So you kind of have to weigh up, do I want to see a low resolution over a big area, or do I want to look at this like more detail but less coverage globally?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:39

Okay. Speaking of the ocean, I saw this on Twitter recently, but there's like a place in the ocean where there's like a red thing that's in the middle of the ocean, and apparently that's that's the furthest away from land anywhere in in in the ocean. Do you know of this place? Miss Google, it's it sounds really scary.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

But is there a south atlantic?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:56

There's like a red beacon somewhere in the ocean. Okay. And you know if you if you land there, you know you're screwed because you're the furthest away from humans.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:04

Any human red beacon? Okay. Yeah. Well, it's like a beacon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:08

Some sort of beacon thing. I don't know. No, no, it's it's an actual island. And it's um island. It's between Africa and South America. Um yeah, anyway. Uh why did you bring that up? No, I just it just it just came up on if you want to talk about like things interesting in the ocean, the Mariana trade. It's called Point Nemo. Oh, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:27

Well, Point Nemo is where the older like uh space shuttles shuttles go and land.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

Yeah. And funny enough.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:35

I'm seeing Tristan DeCuna uh located in the South Atlantic Ocean, is widely recognized as the most remote inhabited place in the world. And I think there was a dental study done there on the anyway. On the people that the people there uh looking at because I don't think they used to brush their teeth, but they never used to get cavities because their diet was uh high in fat and things like that. You didn't do this in epidemiology.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:57

We digress. So where were we?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

We were at Long story, eh? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:02

No, I like the story. It's fascinating. I'm really in I'm really interested. But yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:07

Uh I think we finished with my master's. Yeah, oh yeah. So I went on this um ten day yeah, sailing.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:12

Cape Town to Mozambique.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

Mozambique to Cape Town, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

But it was uh so that was my second time doing like a field work experience. But that was m more challenging because it was a sailing ship. So we were actually sailing. So our main priority was sailing. Yeah. Like we slept in hammocks and we had sailing shifts, so like two, four-hour sailing shifts every day. Uh so like from eight to midday and then eight p.m. to midnight, and then between twelve and eight, we would do like the science and collect some data. But then there's also shifts from midnight to four a.m., four a.m. to eight, eight to twelve.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:47

So how do you handle emotion sickness in in an environment like that?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:51

I've been lucky. I haven't been seasick before because I'm really scared of vomiting. So I think that has to do with my fear that motivates. But it peop yeah, it's normal and I think it shows healthy bodily functioning if you get seasick. Is it not scary? You do get seasick. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:07

Is this not scary doing all this? Because I I'm like afraid of the ocean. There's like some sort of phobia. There's some sort of phobia that has to do with uh like being afraid of things that that you can't see. You know, I can't remember what it's called.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

Well, remember I told you how like I was scared when someone got hurt and now scared because I didn't know how to handle it. So I think that's also the what made me interested in the ocean. Because it is very scary. It's so vast and you don't know what's out there.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:32

But there's also a spiritual component. Because you know the question at the beginning when I was saying like uh if a naughty child goes to a priest and he says, Don't go into the ocean. That was Yash.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:41

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:42

Didn't the priest tell you you're not allowed to go by the beach or the other. Not me.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:45

I don't know. I I don't know that story. That's a true story. That's a true story. It is a true story, but I don't know about it. But no, but it's scary. The ocean is is scary, and TikTok has been serving me all sorts of like creepy ocean things because it it obviously the algorithm knows you, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:00

And I just can't stop watching it because there's so much so much happening underneath. So why I thought about this is because when you were talking about sailing, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

Did you like ever see like sharks or Yeah, we actually did see a shark on that trip. Like uh just off uh Cape of Good Hope, we saw uh baby great white shark. That was the first time I saw a shark.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:19

Like Do you see the fun coming up and you could see the whole thing I was so And you are you the type that you like you love that you want to go closer and stuff?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean that's the reason why I went in because of the sharks.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:30

Hectic concept.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:32

So it was really yeah, really beautiful. And great and like killer whales, you see them quite a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

And you go for like even in Antarctica. Apparently they they're like They're super intelligent.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:44

Yeah, but somebody said they're the like that they're the assholes of the ocean, they're like making a humans of the ocean.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:49

Okay. I'd say.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:51

Same thing, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

Apex predator.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:54

Yeah. Go on then, tell us take us further on this journey.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Yeah. Uh so you sailing shifts, all of that.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:01

It was And how long did it take the whole journey?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

That was ten days. So it wasn't too long. Yeah. So it was doable in ten days, you know, doing and then um because it was a sailing ship, it was quite like we only had one Niskin bottle, which is these bottles where you can close at whatever depth you want. So it's just a big cylindric bottle that you tie to a rope and you send it down and you want water from ten meters or twenty meters, things like that. So then we'd filter that water. But we just had one hand pump, so it was very like early stages. It was more of a teaching thing. But after that, the the organizers wanted to do it again. Um and that's what I'll I did last year. So but that I can get to later. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:46

Yeah, tell us what's and I also want to hear about that Neskin cylinder thing. What's it called? It's a Neskin bottom. It'd be useful for when you when you take a trip to Durban and people say bring the ocean water back.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:58

We should ask what depth. So after that, then um you know then I had to think of what am I doing next. I think that's the most challenging part with this career is is what everyone warned me about is that I will not get a job. So I was like, okay, now what? Um so I got offered a job well, I had an interview in Canada for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans um for a job there. And so I but everything was online because I was back in South Africa already. So I was waiting for like paperwork to and like visas and things so that I can go back and work in Canada for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. But while I was waiting, I found on Twitter an advert for a PhD position at the University of Stockholm in Sweden. And so I I thought, okay, let me just apply for that because it sounds right down my alley, like using satellites to look at um ocean productivity, water quality for like and climate change. I thought, wow, that's perfect for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:58

And on Twitter of all places, your algorithm must be yeah, really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:02

It's a great place, yeah, for finding opportunities and I would have thought maybe LinkedIn or something, but Twitter. Yeah fascinating. As long as you follow the right people who share these things. Yeah. So it was and then I applied for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:13

Elon Musk is good for something, yeah. Go on.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:17

Um and then yeah, then I got it. And the day after I got that position, I got my visa to go to Canada got rejected for some reason. I don't know. So then I was like, wow, that worked out because I wouldn't have been able to go to Canada anyway. So let me go to Sweden. And I was also applying for other things while I was waiting. So I applied for this NASA course uh in the US. It was for calibrating and validating satellites. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:42

So you're really into satellites, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

Yeah, because it's like um, you know, I got trained in marine biology and physical oceanography, and then now using satellites, that's a different ball game. Um, because you it's more of a tool to apply it to monitoring and using proxies and algorithms. So it's like you do need You need to know about it. You need to know that it's better if you studied physics and went into satellites. But I did it the other way around. So there was a lot that I needed to learn to actually understand everything about it. Because when I did my masters, I was like, okay, cool, I'm using this chlorophyll data as a proxy for phytoplankton and biomass. But what how does this product get made? Like, how can how much can I trust this data that I'm using from the satellites? And then like it's a rabbit hole, you know, that you go down and you're like, oh, there's so many different ways to do this and different decisions to be made to make this product, and that can affect the quality of the data. So yeah, it's a big, just a big rabbit hole using satellite data, and then that's how I went down that rabbit hole for my PhD.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:42

And that's why you applied to NASA.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:44

Yeah, for that course. It was like a four-week intensive, well, like one of the best courses I think I did for the case.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:49

Oh, so you did it also?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:51

So you didn't just apply.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

No, yeah. So I I was lucky. First I got on the waiting list, and then they said, okay, you can actually come someone.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:58

Where? This is in Houston.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:59

No, in Maine. Okay. It's at the yeah. So it was hosted by so in this field, it's like a lot of the professors do this voluntarily to do these courses. It's almost like community service to make the next generation proficient. Um, so it was out of their own good will to do this course. So it was funded by NASA, University of Maine, um, and uh Bowdoin College and had like lecturers from NASA and different yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:27

So you do that before you go to Stockholm.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:29

Yeah. Sure. So I and then I got the Stockholm position, so it was like, and I said, Oh, well, I'm already going for this course, and they were like, Oh, that's that's great. So that was also like uh yeah, I started my PhD in Stockholm when I was not in Stockholm yet. So I was in the US doing this course in Maine. Yeah, in Maine. And I started my PhD when I started doing that course, and then straight after that course I went to um Estonia. So my co-supervisor was is from Estonia, so I stayed there for a few days because we were going on a cruise from Estonia to Germany, Kiel. So that was when I met my supervisor in person and like everyone else we were working with, and we did a research cruise there. So that's yeah, how I started my PhD. And then after that I also had a conference in the UK. So there was just a lot of traveling while I started, yeah, when I started my PhD.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:24

Or you could have been on core in a hospital putting up. Wow, huh? Yeah. Fascinating. Stockholm, uh how long are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:33

I was there for well, I guess not exactly a year, but the PhD, I was a year in Stockholm. Um, and I just had some challenges and differences of opinions with my supervisor. So I ended up quitting that PhD, which was a really, really hard decision.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:48

Yeah. Um doesn't sound like something you you you take lightly or you done like you Yeah, it made me question a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:55

So I'm like actually grateful for that happening because at the time it was one of the hardest things I think I had ever had to go through. But there were a lot of lessons in that, and it also made me like question why am I doing this, you know? Because the the person who made the decision for marine biology was 17-year-old Sage, and now I'm like 27 and having a really tough time. And you know, I always um structured my life around like my career in marine biology was like my f my biggest love, and everything else kind of came second. Um so when that was attacked and I was like, this is a challenging situation, then it made me question like why am I doing this? Is this the right thing? Yeah, just a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:38

But that's so good to hear because as I'm listening to your story, I'm thinking, this is so cool. She's found what she wants, she knows what she's doing, passionate about it. But even you like a decade later, you still find yourself questioning you know that's so cool. And to hear not nice, not nice, but cool to hear. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:55

Because there's there's always no matter what the trajectory of your career is, there's always going to be stumbling blocks. And uh it's also a common reoccurrence of a theme in the podcast that and we don't have to get into it, but we'll get your opinion. But uh people who are really good at academia are not necessarily teachers or should be teachers. And I n I know your story because we've previously spoken about it, but for from what I just said, how applicable w is that to what your situation was at that stage in Stockholm?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:28

That's that's very true because you get a lot of people who are really good at what they do and research, and you know that you get specific type of people who really are good at that, but it doesn't mean that they are good teachers or good supervisors. And that's like a totally different field by itself is teaching and pedagogy. Um so I don't know why in academia they just assume if you're a good researcher you should be teaching, but it really shouldn't be like that. And I think um if they focus more on like, yeah. Because I also did a pedagogy course during my master's before I became like a teaching assistant.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:01

I know Yash is googling the word pedagogy, I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:04

I was about-I was about to uh what I was gonna do is I was gonna show the screen to Yak and say this is uh because I know Yak. I know he doesn't know what this means, right? Yeah. And I know that I want to know because I can use it incorrectly. I know my cousin well. We live together. And he always gets words wrong. But it's good.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:19

Yeah, it's like the more specific term for teaching.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:21

It's like I mean, I would have if I had to break that down, uh PED is like foot. And then yeah, but so it's a method and practice of teaching, especially as an academic.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:31

Go on. Yeah, no, you see, I I forgot what I was talking about. Um But just like well done to you. I mean, I as I said, I I do know the story, but the whole undertone of that was that you prioritised your mental health over just continuing in a toxic environment.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:48

Yeah. And I also, yeah, like I did I went into this because I love marine biology and oceanography. And um yeah, a lot of the reasons behind like was was more academic reasons. And I was like, well, if that's how academia works, then so be it. But I'm here for the love of this. Um and it was hard deciding to quit because I especially in academia, you rely a lot on reference letters and things like that and the opinions of other people. Um and obviously everyone struggles with opinions of other people, but thinking that your whole career lies on, you know, this if you see on your CV that you've quit something, then that doesn't look good. You'd have to explain that gap and yeah. And then it always goes into why did you quit? And then I thought, oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:34

Exactly. And are you gonna get another opportunity like this again?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:37

And the reputation, like it, yeah, it can be that was also a very scary part to not be able to openly talk about, you know, the struggles um at that time, because you don't want to like talk about these things.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:51

Um when you say reputation, uh I'm thinking like if you're interviewing some somewhere else, the people might think, well, oh, this person's difficult to work with. As in you, you're difficult to work with.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:00

You'll always get questioned as are you the problem? Yes. Or you know, are they the problem? Or what what was the issue and the conflict? Why did you quit? It doesn't look good quitting. So I think a lot of I spoke to a lot of people during that process because that's what I'm good at, is research. Yeah. So I thought, okay, let me just research this situation and to best know how to handle it. And I spoke to so many people who and that was a bit scary to find out how many people actually have had similar situations where they've struggled, but because of the power dynamic and fear of your reputation being ruined, just stuck with it. Um but then that impacted their mental health for like a very long time, even after they finished their PhD and things like that. So then I yeah, I decided, uh, it's just better for me to to quit this and see what happens next.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:46

And it worked out. What happened next? So You could be a good mentor for some like you know, up-and-coming people you've gone through a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:52

It it kind of all happened at the same time. So when I was wanting to quit, I had a conversation with my supervisor because she was planning a cruise and I said, you know, I don't want to ruin the planning for the cruise, but you know, we know we've been having differences and I've been unhappy. So I'm not sure if I want to continue this PhD, and I don't want that to impact the the cruise planning. And um, you know, then she was like, Oh, it'll be fine, you know, I'm sorry, we'll work things out. But we had a I had a course coming up like a week or two later in Venice. So it was like um learning how to use these radiometers for satellite validation. And she's like, But what about this course? You're going on this course in a week, and I said, Yeah, but it's you know, it's fully funded by the institute that's hosting, so it, you know, it's fine. I'll even take holiday if I need to, so that I can go and it doesn't impact. So that kind of created a source of, you know, she was like, No, you can't go for this course if you're gonna quit your PhD. So that's yeah, there's a lot of bit of um yeah, things associated with that. So then I ended up quitting so that I can go for this course because I was like, I'm not gonna miss out on this amazing opportunity for something. Um, so I just I quit so that I was able to go for the course. But and the course organizers heard about about this and then they asked me to explain. And this is like also why I was like, oh, I'm scared of quitting, because then you know your reputation.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:19

The word got around to Venice, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:21

And then I spoke to them and I told them like, you know, the situation, and I quit so that I could come for the course because I was also scared with my visa. So that's also a difficulty being South African, because my right to be in Europe was attached to my employment at Stockholm University. So that's why I was very scared because I was like, I want to go for this course and it's in Venice, but I'm on my Schengen visa in Stockholm, and I called and they said, Yeah, you know, your visa can get revoked at any moment once you are not employed. And I was like, Don't you get a three-month grace period? And they said, No, with a PhD, you don't. It can be any day from one to three months that you you get a letter that you need to leave. So I was like very scared about that. Um so but yeah, I spoke to the the course organizers just because they asked. And then he actually offered me a PhD in Rome. He's like, if you want to do a PhD in Rome, and then everyone else at the course heard that, you know, I was like newly single, like a fresh, you know, quit PhD. Yeah. And I got a yeah. I got like uh a few offers from professors at the course. And yeah, so there were like four opportunities that arose from that.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:33

So clearly you had a good reputation uh in the field somehow. People wouldn't just be one, you know, headhunting.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:40

Yeah, I guess so. The and there was a lady, yeah, um, who I've worked with before and and she was also organizing the course and she like, you know, yeah, there was a lot of support, which I was really grateful for because as a student you have very little power and usually yeah, the professors would be like have preference of, you know, keeping in the community because you never know if the students are gonna stay or not. So you don't want to make anyone upset. But yeah, I was very grateful for all the support from and it's probably a small community. It is, it is. At the end of the day, yeah, it's not that many. So what happens in Venice and then Venice and then so then I also uh got the opportunity in Bergen. So I was weighing up these options, um, and then I eventually chose to go to Bergen and Norway. Yeah, Bergen, Norway, and it was right next door. So that also made it a bit easy for the move. Um so I just moved directly from Stockholm to Bergen, and there was like three months where I was like free. So I just used the time to finish up my papers from my masters, and then yeah, started in Bergen.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:40

And that's where you are now?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:41

Is that where you met Jak? No.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:43

No, we met like a few weeks ago. Oh, is it?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:45

Okay. Yeah. Okay, because Yak loves Norway, he's been there a few you know, we've got a cousin there also. So putting it uh lightly.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:56

Yeah, no. You really like your cousin.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:00

Uh wait, explain this, unpack this?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:02

What no I've uh you know that I've I've got an association with with Bergen specifically. Um well he does know it, but it's okay. We will get into that a little bit later. But so uh what made you choose Bergen of all places?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:22

Um And it's at University of Bergen.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:25

Yeah. So yeah, during the process where I was quitting my PhD, it made me question like what I value in life, and it was always been my career that always put that first. I was like, but then my career was being attacked and that might fall apart. And then I was like, but what am I if not my career? And that made me question what I really value, um like as a wholesome person. Because if yeah, if my career is everything and then it doesn't work out, then that's quite a fragile thing to base your happiness and your life on. So after that I said, okay, I need to prioritize other things. So I need to prioritize things that I like. So I was like, nature, that's important to me to be in areas around like that feels safe. Freedom is important to me, safety is important, um, family is important. So, you know, I need to be able to afford to travel home. And that's also where finance comes in, just to be able to afford a flight back to South Africa once a year. And so I put all these values down. And then I also looked at all the opportunities I had for different PhDs. And I would have loved to go to Rome. But if I ranked my values, the the most appropriate um option would have been Bergen, just based on the revolutions that I found from my Yeah, because you can't base everything on your career, is what I learned at that point. That's a very structured thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:44

Put a lot of thought into these things. Yeah, not like us.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:47

No, no, definitely not before. You don't even know how I ended up in Bergen. Anyways, um, how's Bergen? Like uh it's it's for me, it's not like ideal. It's not like a great place to to live, especially in the winter.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:01

Isn't Noy one of like the happiest countries in the world or something like that? I don't know. Yeah, sad.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:06

Well, good life what is it?

SPEAKER_05 1:22:08

Um quality life is great, but happiness it's it's very health because of the darkness. Yeah. So how are you adapting? This is how long? But you like a year ago. When did you move to the first time?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:22

Yeah, I moved in twenty twenty four. August. Uh yeah, July, August 2024.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:27

Okay, so almost going on in two years. The first thing that came up, which is I don't know whether it's reliable, but Finland's number one, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden, Israel, Netherlands, Norway is seventh. And then Luxembourg, Australia. Um this is the happiest countries in the world 2026 from a website called WorldPopulation Review.com. So I don't know how.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:48

Yeah, so how was it?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:50

Yeah, uh, I mean, I loved it. Um you moved there during the summer. Yeah. Yeah. So of course it was, you know, going into it was very beautiful. There was like mountains everywhere, there's the fjords. So you had kind of had everything similar to Cape Town. Um and then I also so my how I got the position is a friend of mine uh that I was on the ship with and I met on another course. She quit her PhD. So I contacted her and I said, Look, I need advice on this situation.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:18

PhD quit this club. Yeah. Why did she quit?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:21

Similar reasons, just difficulties with um supervisors.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:25

In Bergen?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:26

No. She was in Germany.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:28

Yeah. She was in Germany.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:30

But a PhD is hectic, right? Like people go through the most when they're doing this.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:33

Yeah, I think you need to hate yourself a little bit to do a PhD. Um Yeah. So she gave me advice. She said, Oh, but by the way, my supervisor's looking for someone. And when I got the position, then she said, Oh, and I have a room in my house, so you can just cut so she organized a PhD and a living situation for me. And so that was also really nice because it's a house with seven people. And I I like living alone. So I was a bit nervous to move with. Yeah, but I mean that's the choice. If I didn't have the money to live alone. So but then I thought, okay, that'll be nice because I'll get to meet people and I'll, you know, just be there for a few months and then I can find my own place. But then I it became like a family in that house. And I said, no, I can never leave these people, you know, they they're too nice. And so that also adds to Norway being like such a nice place because I felt like I had a good community almost instantly, which I think a lot of people struggle with in countries like Norway, especially coming from South Africa, where people are so friendly, and then you go to a country where people are more like reserved, but that's like their cultural.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:43

With Canada also like that. I heard Canada's a lot like that, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:46

People are just it's hard to it's hard to infiltrate, but people are more friendly in Canada. Okay. I feel yeah, more open, like smile at you and speak to a random person, but mm people don't speak to random people in Norway. Um but yeah, I r I loved it. And also going from such a a difficult or challenging situation to a Norway was like amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:06

You you used the past term loved. I mean, is it over now? Did you leave?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:10

No. Um no, but yeah, actually I've been I've been away a lot the past year. So I was I moved and then I uh yeah, started my PhD. And then I said, okay, well, I need data. I need to make a project, I need to find ways to get uh sea time and like uh ship uh ship opportunities. And so I contacted the organizers for the course that I mentioned, the European Space Agency course, um, that I was a student on two years before. And then I said, Look, I moved to Bergen, I'm a PhD student here. Can I come on the ship again? Because I see you hosting the same course, but you know, obviously I've I've been a student already, so can I come and help out with anything you need? And then he said, Yep, you I've added you as a lecturer, and uh you can come up, you know, come on board and help. So that was a nice experience to see the course from a perspective of like a lecturer and organizer and to see how much actually goes into it, and also that's voluntary from all the people who are lecturing. They don't get paid for all that extra work and and it's a lot of work. And uh yeah, it was really good to to be on that side of the table.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:19

And then we went to sea for like from April to June. Um and that was the same thing with the sailing, and but this time we had a lot more scientific equipment on board. So it was doing like more higher level scientific.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:32

How many bars were on the ship?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:34

Bars. This one was a dry ship. Oh, which means you can't drink at all. That's good.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:40

I just my my watch notified me today that I'm 175 days without alcohol. So congratulations. Thank you, thank you. But hungry on the ship.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:49

A dry life. And so how long left for your PhD?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:53

Three years.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:54

Yeah, three more years.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:56

And well, obviously all that time will be in Bergen. Well, is there an opportunity to swap over it?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:00

Yes, I should do a research stay at some point during my PhD. So it's like four months at a different institute. So somewhere that would add value if I need help with a specific aspect, then I can find experts in that and go there for four months.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:14

Yeah. 2025 was busy for you. I'm looking at your LinkedIn. So you you spoke about the ESA OTC Advanced Ocean Synergy Training Course. That was a lecturer. That was in April to June. One Ocean Science Congress in June in Nice. That's that's France, right? Yes, I was. Was it nice?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:31

Yeah, that was it's it's amazing there. Yeah, it's so beautiful. The partner.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:36

That was a nice joke. A Nice, nice joke. Was it nice? Uh United Nations Ocean Conference, also in Nice. Mm-hmm. A representative of the University of Bergen and seeing how ocean science forms in negotiations, that's cool stuff. L O V, what's Villefranche? I don't know how you pronounce it.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:51

It's just a lab in Villefranche, yeah. Vilfranche that does oceanographic.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:55

And what's Pace Hack Week in the USA?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:57

So that's another NASA satellite. Called PACE. Yeah. And so that got launched in 2024.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:04

So where do you go in in it?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:06

That was in the at the University of Maryland. But yeah, fully hosted by NASA. And they kind of teach people how all the tools to use this new data from this new satellite because it's so much more data than the previous satellites. So previous satellites are mainly multi-spectral, which means different spectra. And um so you get the color spectra, you know. So you can take a red band and a green band and a blue band. Um but with hyperspectral, it has as m like over yeah, so over the whole spectra. So it's a lot more data, a lot more gigabytes. So now you need to think of how your computer's gonna handle all this data. So they showed us how to do cloud computing and all these tools to Okay, so the cloud handles all the processing and then your computer can be less powerful. Yeah, so your computer's not processing. It is like doing it just, you know, uh cloud.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:56

Yeah. It's the first time Yesh has ever done this. He's like LinkedIn person in front of them.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:00

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah, because maybe because he knows all the other people. Yeah, maybe that is true.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:05

But before wait, no, this is a good interesting thing. Medics and doc you know, like healthcare workers, they don't know LinkedIn, eh? I only knew LinkedIn when I moved um career, when I changed careers and became an attorney. Because you know, you've got to be on LinkedIn for all these things. But the medics don't do it. They do Facebook and all the Tinder. Germany, wait, wait, we didn't we didn't finish uh Yeah, I heard the Tinder thing. Um Germany, that was in December. You ended that year with the ocean colour community at the I I mean what a year what a whirlwind you said whirlwind. That really is a whirlwind yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:39

I w I wanted to like post something on each thing and I was like, the year is gone. Oh, very good post. Well done.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:45

And there's cool photos and everything. Um I'm gonna add you on LinkedIn, you'll accept, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:29:48

Yeah, maybe. We'll see how you're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:51

Please, eh? Please. Yeah. I love LinkedIn, by the way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:54

Yeah. So anyway, before we go down the borehole of like what we need to talk about there. Um Do you think your parents are proud of you?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:04

Yeah. I think they, yeah. They've after they you know accepted my decision, they fully supported me and then also became so interested in everything that I do. And yeah, so it's it's really nice to see the Peter Peter.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:17

I'm not a b I'm not your parent and I'm proud of you, man. This is so proud.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:20

Very well done. Yeah. And and especially, I mean, when we previously spoke and and I spoke to them about getting you as a guest on the show, um, I found you super interesting because besides you being in a niche environment of science and oceanography, you're also an Indian female in this whole sphere of practice. And I don't know anybody else. I mean, it's apart from our cousin Um Tanusha, who's is a uh geologist, we d we don't know anyone that's actually pursued this sort of interest and has gotten this far and is ext like still excelling like this. So I mean from a proud perspective, like being a fellow Indian, but also just generally, this is like super awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:05

So I guess you have to fight your parents, you know, with that. Everyone has to go through the takeaway in the beginning when you're deciding your own.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:11

Negotiate, negotiate.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:13

But uh I have a lot of Indian female friends that also were in science. So it's uh But it is rare. And I also met um, you know, when I got into this new field of satellite oceanography, I kept read reading these papers on Sasyendranas et al. And I thought, wow, you know, that these papers are my favorite. I love reading these papers. And I automatically assumed it was a man. But then when I met her, it was a what's her name? Uh Shuba Satyendrana.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:40

And um yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:45

You think it's a man. You think it's a man, and then it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:50

And she was the only one, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:52

So when I met her, I was like, you know, it's also very funny because when you mentioned your first supervisor in this discussion that we just had, I'm thinking, okay, it's a man also, but it was Yeah, it's a woman, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:02

But yeah, it's it's uh so finally I found someone like you feel represented.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:07

Yeah, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:08

Um but I didn't think about that before you know I met her and I said, Oh, actually, you know, she looks like my nanny.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:13

Um and she's in science and doing all this amazing research and yeah, like real role model stuff because uh you don't look like everyone else that's um, you know, it leads to the right.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:31

Yeah, I should be able to do that. And South Africans in general, like do you deal with a lot of them or well moving around, it's I get very excited when I meet another South African. But um, like not I haven't met anyone in like Canada or the universities where I've studied. Um but at the big conferences, then I get to see other South Africans. Yeah. Um and also I try to find them, you know, at these conferences because it's not a big community, but I know there's like one or two or three other South Africans. And when I come back here, I try and find the like they're called um optic optical oceanographers because you're looking at light and how light interacts with the ocean. So it's more like physics and more like light physics.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:15

Aaron Powell There's probably not a lot of South Africans because they're all you know putting up trips or working for insurance companies or broadcasting. Calculating like life expectancy and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:24

So really well done for No, but uh there there's a lot of amazing things happening at UCT and the National Research Foundation and things. We obviously don't have as many resources as there is overseas. You know, there's not as much money going into science from governments, and uh even less so in South Africa, because that money needs to go to you know social needs, but social needs are environmental needs as well. But we have other things that need to be prioritized. So that's also why it's easier to find jobs and positions in this field overseas.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:54

Okay. Yeah. So um I know it's a hypothetical situation, but I watched Greenland too this week. Um should we be worried? What's what are the what's the data showing?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:10

Um For those of you who haven't watched Greenland or Greenland 2, it's about the way the world's changing, and we think that it's gonna be a long-term chronic process where there's gonna be change. And just like yesterday when we spoke up we we spoke to um Prof. Gray, and we're talking about like epidemics and pandemics, and all of a sud I mean HIV and AIDS was a long drawn-out thing, and then COVID happened and it was acute, and the world had to adjust. So Greenland is also about this a similar sort of sort of situation, but it happens acutely, like in a space of days, but the world changes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:45

And even like the day after tomorrow, that's like an older version of the same thing. And that's based on like physical oceanography principles where the weakening of one current causes freezing in Europe. And like it is an extreme case, but it physically, like based on the physics, it could happen and that could be the result of that. And I don't want to be like all doomsday because I guess it depends on the trip, but it's it's so broad and it depends on your really specific question because you have so many different aspects of impacts of climate change on the ocean. And if you go on each one, like generally it's it's demotivating and you know, things are getting worse. There's some cases where there's points of hope. Um, but I think the overall message is we should have been acting a long time ago. Is it too late? It's it's never too late to start something that needs to be done, you know, because then no one will do anything and it will get worse sooner. Um but I think like also attending the United Nations Ocean Decade, like that was a conference for the United Nations with governments and really like a high-level people. There were very few scientists in that room, but you get to see how the science is applied to decision making at a government level. And I think that was very interesting to see. Um, because as a scientist, you get so niche into a specific question that's so specific that it's microscopic and like you can't even see photons and uh light waves. Um so it's also important to look at the bigger picture and say, okay, are we doing everything that needs to be done? And it can't be only up to scientists because we're doing the research to see what's happening. But then that everyone actually needs to play a part. And that's what I found amazing at UNOC, because you had people um in government level, private industry, lawyers, just all different fields, where even artists, you know, where people are fighting for the same thing, which is ocean sustainability and protection, which isn't just for the ocean, it's for ourselves, actually. Just no dentists.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:54

There are probably no dentists there. Yeah, only it's like you've got to have uh you guys as scientists, it's your guys' responsibility to influence. Yeah. No, no, not really. Just to interpret that data, but get an influencer as a PR to translate your message now to the policy makers.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:11

Yes. So that's also what I think is an important part of science, is being able there's yes, science is an important aspect, but being able to communicate with science is even more important um to communities and private institutions to everyone, um, because we stay in our bubble of science usually and that's not really making as much impact as well And and look, it's it it's on the face of it, it sounds like very boring and scientific, but when you actually dig in like like we've done in the show, it's fascinating, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:39

Like I I really am interested. And I if I just had to look at what you know, all the words and things. Like seriously, scientists need to figure out how to, you know, like broaden their reach and make it sexy. Tell the story, tell a story, be be storytellers.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:54

Yeah, I've been thinking of doing that. And uh yeah, because communication is an important part of science.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:59

So And humans learn by storytelling.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:01

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:02

Exactly. Otherwise you just come across as like an anti-vaxxer and then it's like, oh no, the the plastic like strangling the turtles. And what is the exit? Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, uh one final question on that. You said if you know something if we start acting now, something, oh, we need to do something. What is that something? What what do people just generally need to do?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:23

Yeah. Well, i yeah, everyone can do something. It's mainly like, yes, of course, each individual has a responsibility, but also big industries and governments to make the right decisions. Um, but as an individual, you could make small differences, like, you know, using a cup instead of the single-use plastics when you go to a shop, take your mug instead of getting uh a mug from like a takeaway cup, things like that to reduce plastic. You saw my green water bottle, yeah. I mean very environmental. Things like that. You know, you when you eat fish, you try to see if it's endangered, or there's like um yeah, like a list of fish you that are green or not, and depends on the country you're from. If it's local, eat local instead of importing things and fish from other places. Um your car, like carbon dioxide, like yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:15

Emissions. Electric. Do you drive electric then?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:18

I don't drive. You don't drive. That's even better, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:20

Can you drive at all?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:22

You mean with a driver's license? Yeah, I have a driver's license.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:25

But there's no point having a car. In Bergen in Norway, I don't think it's affordable to drive. Yeah. It really is super hectic. But don't they all have electric cars and stuff too? They do. A lot of people. Like 90 something percent of it's electric. Yeah. Yeah. But also the public the public transport's like one of the best in the world there. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:42

Yes, I don't really need it.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:43

When was the last time you drove?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:44

Oh, it's been a while.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:45

Like you should drive here now.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:47

No, because it's not safe for me to drive alone.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:51

Overprotective parents.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:53

It's good. Are you still so you still your parents are still around, involved, proud of you? What's what's next? Any any ideas?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:58

Well, I need to do my PhD. Yeah. Once you're done with that, then we'll see that's the hard question. That's why I was telling you, it's like it's a journey, a long journey. And it I don't know if it's a success story yet, you know, because it's um It is It is a long journey. And uh in three years I'll be done with my PhD, and then I need to see if I can get a job or if I want to do a postdoc or become path of academia or go into yeah, industry or I actually I would love to work for like the European Space Agency or UMetSAT, which is the agency that processes the satellite data. Because I would use all my skills and I'd be really interested in that.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:39

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:40

But we'll see. You never know. For for a planner and a y you you tend not to plan like the next step or well I've learned that uh I've made a lot of plans and then life doesn't yeah, turn out that way. So maybe it's better to have fluid plans. You have hopes. Yeah. But yeah, just let it uh yeah. See what happens.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:01

What do you do for fun, like besides your work?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:04

Yeah, so I've had to get hobbies now, yeah. I like hiking and so that's also why Bergen was a great place to be up uh uh Ulriken, yeah. Yeah, of course. Ulriken and then also How do you know Yak's been to Norway?

SPEAKER_04 1:41:18

He'll tell you. He'll tell you. Cheers to that. Yeah. So hiking, what else?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:23

Hiking, uh sauna in Norway, that's the thing. Dry is it dry sauna or uh well you dip in the fjord. So yeah, sauna and then you swim in the fjord.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:32

Because apparently sauna is really good for longevity. Yeah, like this. LGBT very hot. Very hot, 90 something.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:39

But also I've heard like those studies were done on men mainly. Okay. So I don't know if cold plunging and extreme temperatures are as good for women, but yeah, apparently those studies were Do you look into longevity and things like that? Um I I don't mind dying.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:55

So I don't want to die.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:57

I don't want to.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:57

Yeah. I mean I'd uh life is great and I'd like to stay, but if uh death is inevitable.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:02

Quality of life is important. Health span. It's called health span.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:08

I don't want to be healthy as possible for as long as possible. But I don't have any intention of like unnaturally trying to live as long as possible.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:17

I do. I would I would like to live as long as possible.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:20

Why?

SPEAKER_04 1:42:21

It's gonna be a hundred and twenty-year-old podcast. Yeah. I mean it's good for the retirements.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:27

I think also people are just using so many resources, and the longer we live, the more resources we have kids, and then it's like a lot more.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:34

Sustainability of the planet.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:35

Yeah, then you need to make no, I I'm fine, I like Earth. There's no ocean.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:40

Yeah. Okay, anyway, so we're talking about you and uh like what else? Those seem like very traditional Norwegian things to do. That doesn't seem like hobby, a hobby too.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:49

Oh, I also love crocheting and knitting. That's very Norwegian also. So I it wasn't cool in in Joburg. Because I used to make everyone beanies and I'm like, oh, and in Norway, yeah, it's cool in Norway to crochet and knit. And I also did like a pottery class to do like makeups and bowls and things like that. But also love scuba diving. But it's very cold there, so I need to get like a dry suit. And that's all expensive too. So but I haven't done that yet. Yeah. And then also sports and swimming and running.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:21

You think you'll ever come back to South Africa?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:24

I I would love to come back to South Africa, but that's a loaded question. Yeah. It depends a lot if uh things change. Because one of the honest main reasons why I left is just because I like off safety and freedom. Like just because I didn't feel free when I lived here. I was always like worrying about safety and things like that. And it's especially as like a single female living in Cape Town. I was like, oh, there's Lion's Head right there, and but I can't just go hiking by myself, you know, and that kind of annoyed me. Whereas now in Norway, I have my female housemates are like, Oh, do you want to come sleep on the mountain tonight? And I was like, What do you mean, sleep? Just go hiking and sleep outside by yourself. Like those are things that I've never even imagined doing that are like the small things that I want in life. So that's the main reason why I left. Um so if I yeah, if it becomes safe and I can do all those things by myself.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:19

Don't worry, it's safe. Come back. We'll be good.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:22

But it'll be Cape Town.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:23

Cape Town, okay. Yeah. There's mountains there.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:25

Yeah, but it that's it's so unfortunate. Cape Town has everything that has to offer in to you and your career. The mountains, the ocean, the research. Yeah. Antarctica is not too far. Yeah, exactly. It's it's like the perfect place. Yeah. But it's yeah, those are South Africa, Habibi.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:46

Come, come. It's good here. Look at us, we're we're cool. But no, it's really look, I uh this was a fascinating conversation, man. Yeah. Like clearly there's no regrets of not of not doing medicine. Yeah, none at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:56

Especially during COVID. When because I have friends that I, you know, went through high school with and we said, Oh, we want to do this, and we both wanted to become cardiothoracic surgeons. But she actually did follow that path and it was tough during COVID, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:09

If anybody wants to like reach out to you and ask you for advice or stuff, can they find you on LinkedIn or Yeah, yeah, of course. You're quite difficult because you're not even sure if you're gonna accept me as a conking, of course.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:20

Of course I will. Yeah. And then well, since I started, the Jewel ended as well. Like if you had a child, would how would you steer your child into what career you'd want them to get into? I know we previously had this thing, right? And we were talking about um some other stuff. And like what if your child wanted to do something that you were not in favor of like oil, like yeah, like mining? Yeah, exactly. Like podcasting with no money.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:53

Um well I guess I'd try and raise that child in a way, like mold them with to to be as aligned with my morals as much as possible. Um but I think at the end of the day, it's like they are their own person and they c whatever makes them happy, I would and I wouldn't be able to support them financially anyway, so they should make their own decisions.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:18

It's almost like Yasha's philosophy, as long as they're happy.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:21

No, I've changed my philosophy from happiness to satisfaction because happiness is just like it's a moment. But being satisfied is like a a long like it's something that's sustainable. Because we can be happy now, and then after we have this happy conversation, go back to being miserable.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:40

But as long as you're satisfied like with what you're doing, and you sound very satisfied.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:43

Just Yeah, because there's challenges with everything and of course it's still a job at the end of the day. I'm still I'm not swimming with dolphins, you know, I'm coding at my desk.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:51

Yes, and when you when you said like we'll figure out what's happening next, it tells me that you're still satisfied and you're comfortable, that there will be something next that you'll you'll figure it out. You know what I mean? Yeah. You might not necessarily be happy throughout the whole time. And this is cool.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:04

Yeah. And just to answer like you two, I just thought about this now, in my opinion. My opinion, happiness should not come from your job. Like, why would you want to earn money to be happy? Like it should come from all the auxiliaries surrounding what it is that you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:22

But I think I can say the same with like, yeah, you're saying from the money aspect, but I I also like attached my identity to my career choice, which is the opposite of the money thing, but that's also not healthy. And also, like I've learned that that's not a great idea either, you know, to chase a career for money or even your identity, because that's not who you are, it's just what you do for as a career. So yeah, that's something I learned quite recently.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:50

Fully agreed. Yeah. So Jules, good luck with trying to convince Nani and your and your parents to not try and structure what your child's gonna do. You're still gonna be a doctor, I can promise you that. But thank you so much for giving us your time. And um, I know you're just on a short sabbatical in South Africa and you're back to Norway. And you had a busy schedule, but you still made time for us. So we really appreciate it. And one of the you actually I was talking to Yash earlier on, you're one of our youngest guests, I think, thus far.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:20

Yeah. And thanks for having me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:23

Really interesting. Yeah, very interesting. And to summarize, you asked me a question yesterday and you just mentioned it just now that are you, you know, are you successful? And then I was like, it's success is like not a place, it's the journey. But we see you as being a successful person in your field and your career because it's phenomenal. I didn't know the depth of what it is that we have previously spoken about, but it's phenomenal. Thank you. That's very well done. Wherever it goes, even if you end up working at INJ, being a fisher woman, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:56

Still feel like an imposter on the show, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:58

No, no, I'm glad we got you on, and it was fascinating and people are gonna learn a lot. Thank you so much, Segel. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thanks. I'm gonna first bump. Seriously. Yeah.