SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back everyone. Today's guest is a special one. You've probably seen him on TikTok or the Sunday Times or on Facebook, Instagram, heard him on Lotus FM. Anywhere else I've missed out, I apologize. S A B C probably. He's no stranger to the camera or the mic. Uh Dr. Yasin Bismillah, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. It's an honor. Thank you so much for joining us, man. One of our previous guests, his name was Dr. Ib Patel. Yeah. And Yak cannot resist the temptation to make like a pun or a joke or whatever, right? So he You're a medical doctor, right? How much do you know about teeth? Very little. Okay, good. Because one of one of my colleagues, who's a well-respected maxillofacial surgeon, I'm not going to mention his name, but I really respect him and I want to get him on the show one day. He said he commented on one of the things I posted and said he tends to find that dentists know more about medicine as opposed to medics knowing about dentistry. So so I asked, like, you don't know much about teeth, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

There's a thing in the tooth called the root.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

And in and in that canal, we call it the pulp. So Yak introduced Dr. Ib Patel by calling him the Quintin Tarantino of Dentistry because Ib Patel works on the pulp and pulp fiction.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

So with that all that rambling is to say I'm going to say welcome to the Bruce Willis of medicine. And if you don't get that, just Google Bruce Willis and the Sixth Sense, and you'll know what I'm talking about. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

I am happy with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Yeah. How are you, man? What's happening? I'm good. I'm good.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

I'm good. Slightly anxious. Yeah. But um I'm here.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

I find it interesting that you're so anxious because I mean you got like I saw one of your videos has like 21 million views. Yeah. That's like more views than some pe some countries.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

It's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

And are you used to are you not like is this not second nature now?

SPEAKER_00 1:55

No, no, no, no. It's actually quite a shy, introverted person. And you know, with medicine and with life and everything, uh, it took me quite a while to be comfortable in front of the camera. It it it it takes a lot. Vulnerability, a lot of content creating, understanding. Um so those things took some while to come. And and we don't see that here when we when we see you on on 30 seconds, something that took two hours to record. And that was take time 100. But that one was take number one, one take. Easy going, fun in a morbid area. Describe the video briefly. It was um I was making fun of everything or anything that could be a cause of death in the mortuary at the back. So like a slip and trip injury, or like um being stabbed by the knife, or um being like um like your hair getting caught in the door as you're going past. So anything extremely morbid. And I kind of recreated those events, and I'm like everything going through my mind in the mortuary, you know. I think in death, I think uh in causes of death. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

And that was quite accurate. And that I think that's interesting because you I mean, that view, I mean, you got a lot of views for that. Yes. But you worked on it by yourself. I mean, it was just you and dead people, I'm just 100% and the camera. And now you're talking to two life of the friends love dark humor.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

They're a ratchet, to be a ratchet kind of people. They love that dark, morbid humor to talk to get down for like a second because they were not sure what the intention of it was. But purely for again, educating its aspects you'll never see at the back, also putting a bit of a humorous tinge to a very sensitive topic. So, Yasin, where do you come from? I am humbly from Pochestrum in the Northwest. Wow, Poch Boy, yes. Okay. It's a it's uh a magnificent metropolis town. No, it's a farm town in the Northwest. Um humble beginnings. I played cricket for Poch once.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

I played one match for Poch for Poch. I'm a Durban boy. Did you win? Uh I took a catch. That's all I remember because I was on tour for cricket and I was playing for Nattel, but the Poch team didn't have a they they were missing a player. Somebody got sick and they're like, Yesh, go there. Clearly, they didn't need me on my side. But okay, so what was what was it like growing up? I mean, sure. Did you tell us about Poch? What goes on?

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Again, a small, a small town. Um, you know, everyone knows everyone, a very conservative Indian community, our typical Indian um um gossiping aunties and drama. Um very Africana town. Fun fact, it's the town with most churches in the world. So um we are on the map for something. Um but very conservative, uh, very small, and two hours away from Joburg, Johannesburg was kind of like the place to be, the place to go, the place once you've made it. Um but yeah, quite conservative. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

I'm surprised to hear you even say that there was an Indian community there. I would never have thought. And um, okay, so did you go to like an Afrikan-speaking school or how it works?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

So so so a very good question. I went to uh an English school. It was the school in town. So again, segregated from our Indian school, which we had in our local community. There was a bunch of kids that went there, and um again, there was again that typical Indian mentality sometimes of you know going to a white school, for example, or the other school, for example. And my dad was the principal of the local Indian school. So you can imagine that dynamic. Um, and uh that was good. I had two older brothers also in poche. Uh I was the Latamiki, so they were eight and nine years older than me. Um, so um they had then also gone to the high school that I eventually had gone to as well, English speaking poach boys.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

And so you were doing well in school or yes, sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

So I was I was quite an academic. So um I throve in academia. It was my safe spot, my hiding spot. I was a different kid in a very conservative Muslim um uh small town not exposed to much, didn't know much myself as well. Um so it's it's different. It was difficult. It was, it was, it was it was difficult.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Well, why do you think there were so many churches in the town?

SPEAKER_00 6:17

In the central, we can then understand the amount of conservativeness that went into that. So being different, I kind of held on to my academics very well. Um my parents were principals, so they were extremely strict, they were extremely um, you can imagine, they were there was a hard influence on being studious, working hard. They also have had two boys before, and I was the last one, so they were almost like groomed me to be um they knew the mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

They're like 100%. So your mom was a principal as well. As well. Yes. And she owned that school.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Yak and I have lived in small towns. Yak lived in Folks Rest. I lived in Standerton. So I know about small town life. Uh I worked there. Everybody knows you also, everybody knows your stories.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

100%.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

And I always say to my cousins and them, all small towns in South Africa have three buildings in common. In my every small town. It's a church, a KFC, and a bottle store.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

100%.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

So 100%.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

And yours had all the time. So Africa literally much populous of all three.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

So did you know now with the strict parents and everything, did they tell you do medicine or what do your older brothers do? How did you get influenced?

SPEAKER_00 7:27

So my older brothers are orthopedic surgeons, so they went, they got into medicine. So early on, I was quite exposed to medicine in the family, you know. But uh I never sure, you know, to make a decision about your career, you know, is so difficult. You are a child at 16, 17, 18. You really don't know what to do, you know. You're again guided by your parents who who like groom you, train you to like study hard, work hard. My parents never said be a doctor, but there was that influence from my two older brothers who have made it again small town. It is the ultimate Indian community level, become a doctor. Um so I was a rebel in that slightly, but I knew I wanted to get into the sciences. I was very good in life science. I got the highest mark in the province in my year in metric, 98%. And I think I was robbed with that 2% somewhere, but another discussion for another day. But I knew I throve on um life and uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

So the brothers definitely by osmosis, you kind of like okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

100% passive diffusion straight into metal. And so you you just applied for medicine everywhere. Sure, my parents applied for me. Yeah, how come? Well you were you quite like sheltered. I really wasn't sure. So my mum was an art teacher as well. So I was uh I was very creative as well. So did very well in art, creative writing, uh I loved languages as well. So I wanted to do art, and I remember my mother specifically saying like hard no. Um she understanding the arts herself was, I guess, a very difficult industry. You know, you have the academics, you have the brain. You can go into something and do art as a side hustle and that's exactly what I'm doing now. You're an artist now, yeah. Yes, yes. And I do physical art. I do, I do art. I do art. I don't that's part of how I express myself. But I wanted to become an artist. Um, I went through a phase of um doing architecture and law as well. Also plays a part in my where I land up in my career now. So there were options, but my parents literally, without my consent, applied to if we left school for me. The whole country, right? References were my brothers. So um, yes. So um so that's how that happened. And by the grace of God, I got a where did you end up? At York's University of the Free State. So uh one small Afrikanse town to another. Wow, Afrikaans is buyer, buyer, buyer.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yeah. That's our you're our first guest that we have from University of Free State. Am I correct?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Sure, yeah. And the only university that offers medicine in five years. So you can you can front. I can buy a few. Once can work a bicycle, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

I can you snake on says bilingual. But can you speak any other languages? I know. It's English and also those TikToks that I've seen where you've got like is it Zulu and Zulu? It's overlaid. It's trained, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Oh, it's trained. Okay. It's trained, yeah, yeah, yeah. So um so it's almost like you lip sync the uh the the audio. But my mom can speak Zulu fluently.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

And don't you wish you could speak I I wish I could speak.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

That's what I said to you yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Same, same. It just breaks so many barriers as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Yeah, I started watching the series. It's a Zulu series, but it's a cartoon.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

But it's it's like the spoof version of current news. But it is so funny, but it's it's the the dialect that they use also, because they sometimes they use English. But 100%. It's it's so attractive.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

No, I I actually can't remember the name now, but it's something about the Zulus, and it's not just the language, it's even the way they express themselves. They make the most shocking remarks and commentary, and anything that comes out of a Zulu person's mouth is a trending TikTok audio. I'm going to say this again and again.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Well, I feel like you're giving I feel like you're giving us a nice clip for a short here. It's gonna get taken out of context.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

It's gonna get taken out of context. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Uh we need to get to all that stuff later.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

But I want to do the boring stuff and do the chronology. Yes. Like, okay, so you get into how what did they call it? Uofs. Uofs, yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Uofs. Uofs, almost like the booker, as you would know about from the poach. So yeah, Uofs and uh just a five-year course there. Is that in is that in free in a bloomfontein.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

So in Bloom in the free state. So you go to the big metropolis of Bloom to study. Sure guys, there's a lot of. How far is that from Poch?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

I don't even think there was a KFC there. Um yeah, there is, there is, there's a casino, a lot of churches as well. Five hours. Five hours uh they make it in the garage. Um uh it's a five-hour drive from Poch. So home was far enough for me to be a naughty boy, but also um close enough to go home for the holidays.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Okay, and how is it?

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Sure, again, very sheltered. So again, lived a very sheltered life. Med school was rough. Uh uh, I'm I'm not gonna lie, nothing prepares you for med school. You know, when I give advice to young people who are going to medicine, I almost want to scream, don't do it. Literally, don't do it. Nothing. You are you guys understand as a dentist as well, being uh doctors as well. It is absolute hell. It is hell on if in five years, if you didn't have the luxury of pre-med or these universities be doing maths and be doing psychosocial stuff, anatomy from day one, hard work, no rewrites, no second opportunities, strict as hell. Was five years of grueling hell. And then you graduate December like 29, and then you start working January the 1st. There's no buffer to anything. So very sheltered, but gave me the opportunity to work hard, study hard. Uh so big ups.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

But did you get that sense of feeling of like once you finish, you know, if you leave the home, right? And did you have that?

SPEAKER_00 13:13

I wish I could say yes. I wish I could say yes. My mum was very involved in community work. She was very in the community. She ran uh nursery schools from home and uh she made sure she produced the best students from the best schools and of all uh professionals today. I was the first one in her school. Um and uh I knew I wanted to make that impact, and I knew medicine was a great platform for that. And I loved, I loved life sciences, I loved bio a lot, I loved anatomy. I always had a morbid fixation about things. Um so medicine felt like a good opportunity for that. And in five years, that got swallowed up completely. You're in med school, you just have to pass the next test, the next exam, next test, next exam, holidays again, next year, next year, next year, next year. Then all of a sudden you're an intern.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Were you partying much or anything? No.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Sure, bloom, sure, bloom. There's one street in bloom, and people know it's called uh long street. Yeah, and it is your it is long. Yeah. It is long, it is long. They party every single night, every single night.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

And did you have like lots of friends there and stuff?

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Uh we I had a uh yeah, I had a click, I had a click. Again, uh we were we were the the misfits of medicine. The ones that always scraped through, always sat in the like the middle, the middle part of the class. We were not too smart in front, we were not too naughty at the back. Um so yes, we had quite a good friendship.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Okay, I was the guy at the back that never had any notes and knew what knew what was going on. Always getting a sub every year.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

I was the only guy, so didn't I was at the back and front. But yeah, we'll give you context about that later. But you said that, you know, there it seemed like there was a passion about medicine there, you know, before you started.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Do you think that the actual academia of it detracted away from it and it you lost some hope because I mean you are where you are right now.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

You know, that academia that got me through high school, I was an academic. I loved to study. I could open up a textbook, I'm not afraid of a book. Give one to me. I want to highlight it, I want to I want to uh understand it, I want to recognitate it to you almost. So the academia didn't really um buffer me there. And then I have very good people skills, so I'm very clinical as well. So I'm also Gemini. So I feel like I have those two faces of the quieter academic side, and I also have this uh uh I'm very people embracing and talking. And so so no, the the academia almost fused with the clinical side of being a doctor. And I think that's like a beautiful way to put it. What did you hate in school, like growing up? God, I hated sport. That was one thing I hated completely. Um I hated maths. I'm that Indian person that cannot count. Uh, if you give me one plus one, I need my uh my phone to work that out. So accounting was I actually dropped accounting in grade 10 because I could not, I could not count. Um and I didn't like business stuff at all. Business studies. Oh god. Yeah. And did you think I want to be an autopot one day or no, not at all? Too again, industrial for me. Um, yeah, no, no, no. I want to bone breakers. I want to break bones in other ways. Any horror stories from med school? Sure, med school um uh deliveries I think were always rough. Rough things um uh projectiles that come at you from that activity that women have to go through. Um obstetrics was rough. Um yeah, horror, horror, horror, horror. Not really. I think it's trauma just erased that uh yeah, I I I handled quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

And you didn't think that it wasn't like I've made a big mistake by studying medicine.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

No, you know, sure, no, no. At least thank goodness that that that no, I know, no, I never felt like that. Um I enjoyed learning about about the human body a lot.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

I really did. Well the reason why I asked my previous question is because you said that you were just scraping past.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Right. Yeah. Why do you think that is? I mean, usually people that do have a passion for it, they I mean, they wouldn't be just scraping past. 100% past. Do you think that the actual and when I call it academia, I mean like the the teachers and the departments, did they play a role in you not like fulfilling that aspect of uh of getting those grades to be uh high flyer?

SPEAKER_00 17:54

No, that makes sense. That makes sense. So we had an English and uh Afrikaans class that was gonna be another class. Is it still that way? It's still that way. Still works, but then again, different lecturers, different examiners. I remember in our final exam, I was like, there's a grammatical area here, but I'm not and then I I would read Afrikaans parts just to make sure that you know the is and the are and the one thing or two things. Um so I think that did play a bit of a role. The English class, I sometimes were a bit of a disadvantage, but not but not starkly.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Um you had to be proficient in Afrikaans to basically get by.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

I made a small dictionary that I had an English Afrikaans dictionary because medicine in Afrikaans is actual hell. It's like worse than Dutch at its core. Uh the words are like literally 28 syllables. Um so it was a very difficult thing. And not again, lots of Indians are demographically challenged as well. Um Afrikaans was rough. It didn't help me that much.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

And did you did you take Afrikaans at high school? Like how did you sure noticed the first additional home?

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Uh you know, no, no. Afrikaans was not, was I was not good or proficient in Afrikaans at all. So it was a a very new experience for me. But again, I took it in my stride. Took it in my stride. Funnily enough, sure, to think of where I came now, anatomy I nearly failed. Um, histology I nearly failed. Physical because of the I nearly failed. Um because of the bang language barrier. No, I I I I just it was not one of my strong points. Okay. It was not, and now I specialize in attacking. I know, yeah. But strange that I think yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah. No, that's interesting. But I I mean I can identify with that. I studied in Mauritius and we had to take French as one of our like first languages there paralleled with anatomy. Imagine learning anatomy and then going after learn anatomy in French. It was absolutely terrible. Managed to get by it, but eventually I could see the value in it because you're actually treating patients that are French spoken. So you need to have this like medical conversational sort of language.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Rapport. You don't mean your exam and uh translator. Exactly. Uh you wanna you you you wanna gauge the yar and the near. You you can kind of gauge what a patient is saying when you've also broken that language barrier.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

So a life lesson, I think, um, in bloom as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

So when did you get start getting good at anatomy?

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Sure, sure. No, no, no. So then anatomy took a back burner, again, traumatic erasure. Um and then then medicine becomes very super clinical and it's all about treating, it's all about management, it's all about and um yeah, I loved that aspect. I left all the all the pure medical basic stuff in first year and kind of got swooped up into you know the exit level of what uh basic GP should be able to do all the flags.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

That's what excited you, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. I I I I I'm still not scared of a trauma unit so much.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Um cadavers by a GP.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

We did dissection in second year. With the with the medics, that's all.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

I nearly failed that. We had a whole cadaver. Yeah, we had a skeleton we took home, which I had a lot of fun with. Anatomy. I used to play with the bodies a lot. I I remember that. But then anatomy is like low-key triggering. Yeah. It's it's a lot. It's every single aspect of your body has a point, has a name. Ooh, Lord, it was a lot. Yeah, it was a lot.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah, no, no. And what uh I mean, from what what I had a problem with with that, because I also kind of failed anatomy, um, is that you're kind of creating an average of where something should be like per hundred individuals. 100%. And then you gotta like work on oh, is this is this nub actually meant to be running there, or is this that one? Person where there's gonna be like an anomaly. And then 100%. What's the point?

SPEAKER_00 22:04

100%. And it's also that visualization of the lungs are actually peaking up here. You know, you have to know anatomy.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

So I kind of but we also had textbooks, you know. I don't know when you qualified, but we had textbooks, right? I would have benefited with an iPad and like seeing things in three years.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

100%. 100%. And now I use my iPad in autopsy now. When were you in that season?

SPEAKER_02 22:29

When were you studying? Yeah, from 2010. 2010. That's when I qualified. Okay, sure. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

So I think we completely jumped ahead with everything with your joke. Um, because for people who didn't get that, um well, Bruce Willis works for dead people. So what what w not for? Yes. So may maybe in your own words you can explain to the audience what is it that you actually do? What is your job right now?

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Wow. In one sentence. As many as you want, yeah. I cut up dead bodies for a living and I determine the cause of death.

unknown 23:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

CSI, CSI vibe. CSI-esque, but very different. So I'm a forensic pathologist, which is a specialization after medicine, after internship, after you uh after comserve, and it'll be like obstetrics or surgery, for example. It'll be forensic pathology, its own field of specialization, specializing in dead people.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Something must have must have built up to this. Or was it yeah did you figure it out in internship? Where did you even do internships? Sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

I did it at Job Gym, Charlotte Montreke, Academic Hospital? Sure. Internship broke me, I'm not gonna lie. Sure. I don't think sure.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

You moved from Bloom to now to a proper big city.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

People could speak English. How was it? It was numbers in a different load, it was a different academic atmosphere, it was rough, it was long hours, it was a lot. When I tell you, I went through every rotation, unsure. And this doom in my gut being like, I just don't feel it. I just don't feel it. People are doing small courses here and there because they know after Compsol, they know exactly where they're going, they have ideas for their masters, they have ideas for this, and I could, you know, doctors are really forced. There's that fire beneath you to excel, to be good. All our all our seniors were profs and they wrote the books that we studied in Bloom. I'm like, you're the guy, you're the actual guy, and I'm on this world round with you. So at the end of internship, I was absolutely crushed. I think I was I was so finished, and the doom felt in of holy crap, have I made the correct decision in this career or not? You can be good at something, but damn, can you do that for the rest of your life? Damn, how do you how do you explain that to a matriculant who is shadowing for a day?

SPEAKER_02 24:58

So you have had that moment. Hey, have I have I made a big mistake? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

It was your first paycheck. Yeah, oh yeah. And how is that? Okay, oh goodness, see money, my account, my goodness. When I got it, I withdrew it almost all and I gave it to my parents in cash. I was like, this, this, this, this is I'm getting goosebumps. This is everything. I'm also getting goosebumps. This is everything. It's like five years of my you know how it is. Yeah. I'm getting I'm getting tax evasion. Like what? What gives them in cash? Um, it was it was it was it was good earning. And I think I loved just to travel. Um, I love to travel and I loved um paycheck to paycheck. Love the work I did. Um, I will say that um I did love, I did love the work I did. I loved my patients. I I I I went all out. I was a very hard worker, but the burnout was real. We don't speak of it enough, enough at all. And there's no support, no actual physical built-in support systems for interns. You are left and you are dropped the hospital. I don't care how accepting people say it is, it is rough.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

No, I'm actually like I wouldn't say mentoring, but we're part of this program where we, you know, we gotta advise people from a from a mental health wellness perspective. And a lot of them are interns. And it's this whole thing that you know shit rolls downhill vibe. So you get the consultant that comes and, you know, he's this just there on call, and then he sort of takes off with a reg, but the reg is subcontracting what is meant to be his work to an MO, and the MO is then giving the shit to the intern. So again, this it stops with the intern.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Actually, it's a generational curse, which I have in my department broke that completely. Um, and I I know I think you spoke of a shaving incident that also shaped your experience of either a student or either a working environment. I really think you can m make or break a potential someone, a young, inspiring doctor in a field by just treating them like an actual human being. Do that, be on call for a hundred hours on end and cry afterwards. But damn, I'm gonna be nice to you, damn, I'm gonna bring you food, damn, you wanna be me when you grow up one day.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

That is the seniors we need to inspire with. So that was you. I'm getting that you broke them with the city.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Shame, shame, your shame. I'm trying now, I'm trying a lot. I'm trying a lot. It's rap it's ra.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Yeah. Yeah. So so internship done.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

You were struggling with that. Then trauma number two hit, cum serve, Zuma here. That word Zuma is just spot on because it's uh When was this, by the way? What this were we talking about? So after internships, you have to do a one year ComServe.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

I mean like a time frame. Oh like year.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

It's a year.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

No, no, what year?

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Oh gosh. Um How long ago are we talking? 2018. 2018. Okay, so fast forwarding a little bit, right? So yeah, so 2015 and then two years um internship, um, 2018, ComServe. Obviously, there is no paid post available for me. I'm one of those post interns, like thousands in our country. No job, what to do. Going HR to HR, hospital, to hospital. There's a book of waiting lists of other unemployed doctors who are waiting for a list at head office. And again, I almost want to cry because I was unemployed. I was not getting paid. And you gave your salary away? I have a damn degree which broke my soul. So I didn't hear you. I said, and you gave your salary away to your parents. 100%. I want yeah, well, well, they were paying my bills for two months. Um, and then I came across, I went to HR, a specific HR, and they were like, hey, we have a post that nobody really wants. It starts tomorrow. Are you ready? I'm like, sign down. Hell yes. And that was at a Tutuzela Crisis Center, also known as a rape center. We have a few of them, they're quite large. They're uh part of state tutuzela. Tutuzela, um, it needs to come together, and um, it's run by NGOs and it's run by state, and um, it's where you examine rape victims, assault victims, quite a morbid field of medicine. Didn't think twice. I signed that contract up completely, and I started my forensic journey from that first day. So where is this? But no, hold on, hold on.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

We have to pause here. So you you are part of that generation of doctors that couldn't get a job. The early, early batch, because now that's like a norm almost.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Completely normal. Yeah. Normal. I just saw on the Western Cape two days ago, they've frozen all MO posts.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Yeah. 100%. But this is not even this is a ComSurf post. It's one of those ones which you you think are given, a guarantee. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

You're supposed to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

You're supposed to be. So you go to two to zero.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

And then I got, because you give your five options, so I didn't get any of those five. Or I think it's the top three options, I didn't get any of those three. So then you are put by default on a waiting list, which is hell. Imagine. Because it was troubling. It was like mentally, it was honestly troubling. It was troubling, troubling, troubling.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Yeah, you go through all of that thinking I'm gonna be a doctor and then you can't get a job.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Imagine 100%. And I think just by luck, by again the grace of God, damn. Um, those churches in Poch were they were coming around.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

It was con all those churches concentrated.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

And she came back into my soul and was like, sure, can you start tomorrow? And I I thank that lady, Mahta, I thank you every yo, Shame. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I was buying her wine like once a month. I was like, Shout out to Musta. You're a hundred percent, a hundred percent. And you just need that one person in HR to be like, I got you. I I got you, I'm gonna try my best. And she did.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

But like a rape center sounds really depressing. How are you sure? Yeah. But you just get numbed to it, or what sure, guys.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

You're I'm even just walking in, and I still remember because you're that place it you it gives me vibes. If you're um bad vibes, uh bad juju, bad aura, it is sure. It is, it is, it is, it is, it is uh not made for the weak. It is built for uh for the strong. It is built for the emotionally strong. And I had begun, I was a I was placed in a very conservative Indian community in Pretoria, and um I'm now confronted as the most senior um doctor there. Firstly, secondly, I'm doing rape kits, um, examining children, elders, um kind of cool, kinda cool, um, kind of cool. Um, and I am not exposed to this at all. It was two weeks in in mid school, two weeks that we were exposed to forensics and that was more tree-based. I didn't even know how a rape kit looked, I didn't know how to document something, I didn't know how to examine, I was examining small children. I don't know what was going on. And it was the first time in my head where the despair, I felt it. I felt the despair. I I still remember the first case I did that broke me. Broke me, but damn. When I realized that I'm gonna go to court for this and I'm gonna have to speak up on this examination, and these findings are for the law, they are not for this clinic, they're not for this center. I am representing the medical findings for this human being. I then was like, I need to know more, I need to learn more, I need to empower myself to do this job for this year. So, what do you do? I did a diploma in clinical forensic medicine. So, you know, like a postgraduate diploma is a baby, it's a baby qualification in a big field. Right? So forensic pathology is half-living, half-dead. This is the half-living section. And that equipped me to examine with precision, examine um um rape victims, assault victims, so injuries. Uh, if I see uh a bruise on your arm, I can, I can, um, I can I can give an idea of when and what caused that. And uh, you know, did you do it or not? I'm gonna be looking at um at your first or at your whatever. So it it it started me off with that, oh my goodness, this does not feel like medicine anymore. Like this is feeling like something else. And I was very excited about it.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Do they teach you about like how to deal with these victims with empathy and like dignity and stuff, or do that you just figure it out yourself?

SPEAKER_00 33:28

So I had to- How is that? I had to learn the hard way. You're I had to learn the hard way. You're it's poker face, right? You can't be shocked, right? You you you also have to calm down the patient in front of you. I remember having a woman who was assaulted by an Indian man who looked just like me. And it shook me, and I got another doctor there so fast to sort out this woman because we also now we need to take DNA superly duply fast. Um, but being exposed, my goodness, then the local newspaper flashing in the window outside. You know, being placed in photos, people, you know, they put you in the the community. Hey, you are living in a community. So I also gained some understanding of this is bigger than me. I am placed in a community. They are now, I I understand the norms of this community, I understand the cultural beliefs of this community, I understand that we don't speak about GPV, we don't speak about child abuse. We actually sometimes normalize it, we actually sometimes enable it. We're not actually 100% sure, but there was media from then because they knew this person was brought in by the police. So it was a lot of um, a lot of a lot of putting on poker faces and uh dealing uh with empathy in the correct way and holding in those feelings in in a way that you express it later on.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

No, that sounds so difficult. Rough. They don't teach you that in the degree or in the diploma or anything. Nothing teaches you that.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Nothing teaches you that.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

I mean, I spoke about this before, like uh the whole GBV thing, and and that sparked my interest in it. But especially when you're doing an examination on a patient when the perpetrator is in the room with the person. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Does it happen often?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Yes. What's a rape kit? Very, very um, so it is essentially swabs. So we are gonna swap any part of the body that we find that we can get DNA from because we're trying to link this assaulted victim who was allegedly sexually assaulted or raped to a particular perpetrator or perpetrators. So we will then swap for semen, we'll swap for saliva if there's a bite mark, for example, we'll take uh hair samples for DNA, we it's a full, fully equipped, one of the best rape kits, I would say, the best and most complaints rape kids in the world. And so to add on, that comes in with a form that we have to fill out completely. So the entire examination, what we found, what we swapped. And you kind of want to wanna gauge the history and you want to gauge your findings, and then that final, the final thing is do they match? Does what the alleged say is what you saw? Yes or no?

SPEAKER_02 36:14

You said something interesting. You said it's one of the best rape kits in the world. So that tells me that we've got a bespoke tailored South African rape kit. Is this a thing? Like internationally, they call it a rape kit? Uh yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Um and um And we've tailored ours, our government all Yeah, our government went all out because we have such a high number. We have such a high number, so it's tailored for every assault as well. So also um your um punch, for example, or say he butt you out of uh I don't know, an anger bite or something. Um we can use that same kit to swab you as well. So it is a sexual assault kit, but it can be used for other assaults as well. It is beyond comprehensive. But are patients comfortable to come in and say, Doc I've been assaulted? Shame. So, you know, sure. So does it work like practically? 100%. So um, okay, so say I've just been um assaulted, sexually or not, I will report that to the police, right? The police will then uh first make sure I'm safe and then I'm not going back to the alleged uh area or the alleged perpetrator. So the police will come in with it's usually a female, um, with a with a case number that's been opened up with the police and a special um form called uh 308A form. And this allows me to examine this patient for the law. So I had I have to break doctor-patient confidentiality then in that case, and uh that allows me to examine um the patient. And this or these crisis centers offer a safe space for women. It is um we uh I'm assisted by two assistants. They help me with all the um admin and all the things, nurses, they are trained forensic nurses, and they yeah, they help me. And they can stay there. They they stay there. I make sure I always have a chaperone there with me, and they assist me and they assist um the alleged victim as well. And again, we try to be very sensitive of who is in the room, who can be there, who can't be there. Um, the police is there, thank goodness, because this is done very um effectively and quickly under ideal circumstances. Not always the case, right? This can be in a busy hospital casualty as well, but I was placed in a specialty um crisis center. And uh once I am done, back to the police, and the police will then handle the situation from there. There's a social worker that works 24 hours there as well, and we have a child therapist there as well that have like child play and uh little um uh dolls, etc. as well, just to assist us, also uh stationed there 24-7.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

But take us further. Let's just say now, so you are only examining the victim whose responsibility it is, is it to go and get samples from the alleged Oh, mine as well. Yours as well.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Ours as well, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

So but I am very objective, right? I am not there, I'm not uh judging anything or anyone. I treat every case like the same, so I will swap purely for the sake of. Oh no, not the sake of, I will um um I will swap um no, no, for the sake of the of the law. Because you just gotta provide the facts and then it that gets interpreted by this man, I sure because there was uh um um He brought in a guy from jail, um uh prison guy, massive, massive, massive, massive. And I was like, there is no way I'm gonna take a blood from this human being in a room alone with one police officer bringing the entire damn force. Comes in with chains, right? On the on the ankles. They are cuffs, but you're I'm not going near your arm, I'm not going near your body, you're you're gonna give me one cup and I'm gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

But yes, but yes, I've got a needle in my hand. You are you were at pains to say you've done it, you do this objectively, but you're a human, right? I mean as a human, if I see a guy coming in handcuffed big size muscles, tattoos all over, whatever, looking like he he done it. How do you how do you maintain objectivity there? And also, I mean on the flip side, how do you like stop yourself from breaking down if like a young kid comes? Do you ever do you ever do that? Do you ever go and have a cry in the corner or something?

SPEAKER_00 40:13

You know, in my young day, I was, I hate to say the word horny, but I was, yo, I loved the academia and the medicalness band. Stimulated. When I look at when I look at my notes now, because I get called to court now for those cases, say, which is like eight, nine years ago, and I'm like, damn, who is this um doctor? He wrote everything out to perfection. And I had a very medical eye for it. I want to see your injury, I want to see your wound, I want to hear your story, I wanna um um, I wanna um I wanna put the puzzle together kind of way. So you're into it? You really are into it? Wow, we're doing roadblocks on highways, taking blood trim-alleged drunken drivers. What? Like toxic used to say that. Can I say and I'm on call? That's like wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Like your passion about it comes, shines through in the TikTok videos and all the stuff I see. And I think that's what people believe because it's very hard to fake stuff, and people can tell when somebody's been faked online.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

And I'm I'm I didn't answer your question about empathy. It's very difficult to feel empathy and sympathy for a dead body who's not your family member who you don't know. It's very different in an alive victim who comes there. I sure you I can still hear the screams sometimes. And I would kindly step out, go to my car, cry it out, make sure the nursing staff are aware that I'll I'll be gone for a minute or two and come back and um you get the work done. And I wasn't debriefed well enough back then. I think also just the excitement of medical legal work and different kind of work. And I was working towards my um diploma as well. So every night they had my notes. Um I took my whole um printed to the um rape center, printing out notes, two in the morning, working, studying, enjoying it. So that that kind of really jogged me in into getting. And there's only like I think 13 or 14 doctors in other country that have this clinical diploma. So I almost become a specialist in uh uh uh examining clinical victim of uh victims for the for the law, for court. Sure. And this is all just a comserve here, yeah? It's the comserve. Right. So you can see how my my life kind of changed around by chance, just by pure chance, just by saying yes, just by grabbing that opportunity. And maybe we'll get into it, but what I've learned in my career is you do that. That is the advice I give to people now. You say yes and you take it. Yes, you take what it's given to you.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

And the fact that you couldn't get a job ended up becoming a blessing because it took you to your calling, right? Yeah, uh career. Ibizo, they're saying, Zulu, you're calling.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Yes, you're calling. What what happens after ComServe then? So, ComSurf, sure. So shame. So they kind of like me a lot. You comserv and I became very uh very confident in uh my role now in a society. Um I wanted to stay on at the clinic, I wanted to kind of invest in it. I I wanted to be, and um, I went towards to Prof. Velema, who was the HOD of Forensics back then, and she was like, there's no one here in this country to drive that. Maybe you could be that person. The doctor who did that actually immigrated to um to Australia and where they have that as a separate specialty. We don't have that speciality in South Africa. So I was like, so what do I do from here? Do I stay and become an expert on uh a medical officer level? Of course not. I have an opportunity to specialize in forensic pathology, and that is dealing with the dead, which I then shadowed at Hillbro um uh autopsies um uh sections, which I was not used to at the time.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

And there's a lot of dead bodies in Joburg, eh? Sure, guys, sure.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Yeah, they are. Yeah, people are dying, but they're massive. Disasters, urban trauma, floods, trauma, families, it's a whole different dynamic, a different world. At the time, I'm still linking up the same wound on you I can tell on a dead body, the same criminology, same mindset kind of setting in, still forensic medicine. I'm still going to court. That just a different aspect of it. And they even offered me to do my overtime in a rape center still, if I still do have that back and forth. So that was where the bridge kind of came in from living to dead.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Yeah, I was gonna ask earlier to take us like even further, right? I mean, you you're gathering all of this evidence per se, because that's what it is. Um but then what happens after that? You hand it over to the police. There's an investigation of the case goes on for months probably at a time. Yeah. And then do you get called to court at at any given stage to what, like testify?

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Yeah. Testify? Usually for the prosecution, usually for state uh on behalf of states. So your notes have to be like uh yes, yeah. My handwriting here, uh cross-examination on the defense, how is it? Oh, defense attorneys. Uh do you see them on a day, like a regular basis? No, they know you thank God I don't. Um they can be rough on doctors. Lawyers are rough on doctors. Yeah, I had a defense attorney come straight to my face being like, your university is not even a registered university to become a doctor. In court to say this. So again, you have to have a tough skin. Hey, I was unrattled, unfazed completely. They and again, like you remember we are doctors, we're not used to this, we're not used to court at all. But again, that little matriculant me who wanted to do law also came in a little bit. Law and order came in a little bit, so I'm very unfazed in court. I realize I'm a doctor and I own it. I'm an expert witness in my field. Bring even bring in a defense pathologist. I can defend my autopsy report, I can defense, I can defend that examination I did on that to rape a victim, for example, with scientific confidence.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

So you never got into like an argument in court with a lawyer? Because they're like they try to attack your credibility and stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:14

They trouble me. They break your confidence. They trouble me. They like they actually trouble me. And then there's like someone transcribing and there's someone translating. I've also taken an oath on a holy book. It's a lot happening, especially high court. High court here, but remember a golden rule that you are there to explain to the judge. The court. So I so uh so I and they're usually very sweet to us, they're extremely sweet to us. So the last defense attorney I had um sure spoke in negatives, triple negatives. And I honestly, I was I haven't said I can speak English very well. I do not understand the question. That's a lawyer for you. Speaking in like you're speaking in so many negatives, I actually forget what the question was. And so it's so I've learned to become very controlled in a court environment, but that learned. Um, I remember my first time I told the judge, the sweet Indian auntie, and I told her, like, it's my first time. Please be gentle. And shame. Job she, uh, I know, Victoria, one of the magistrate courts, okay. And shame. She didn't even shame. She didn't even know like the brain was in the skull. Shame. Like I actually had to like explain the basic anatomy, but again to the court, right? Um, and so so so I started off understanding the court system and where I where I fit it in, but it took me a minute. They say, Yeah, those attorneys are there to rock you, hey?

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Okay, so you're shadowing in Hillbrow.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Then when do you get into the program? Sure. Yeah, so no, so so Hillbrow hit me, hey. So I have I hadn't seen autopsies like that in my life. What before? Tell us why. What do you mean? Uh so it was that time when I don't know if you remember, they were under strike. The um the forensic officers around that time were on strike and they had stopped collecting bodies at some point. Jeez. So sure, there was this pile of sure, I'll never forget the amount of flies that were there, of bodies piled up outside this morti. And um, I understood under the circumstances it was rough, it was an extremely rough time. So sure, I was already like no refrigeration, just you must have been excited.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

You must have been excited. So I I again, I'm like, yo, like what is going on? Like, sure. Like, like, you know, like like what is going on? This is crazy. It's absolutely crazy. And again, a bit of excitement, a bit of excitement and morbidity. It's very morbid, everything was very, very um morbid. But um, taken with a pinch of salt, um, prof was very sweet. Um, she took me through the whole um process. My first case was a decomposed case. So it's a screen, bloated party in front of me. And again, mouth breathing, taking it in, um, being present. But can you but you mouth breathing are those assault victims now? Like I really just I really miss them. It's just it's you know, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

I feel like mouth breathing is a bad strategy. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

It would precipitate on your throat. Or what you're perceiving to be looking at in front of you. What was the cause of death? But I was actually uh I was actually stabbed in the yokeskay and was found drowned um in there. So seeing that autopsy, I was like, wow, wow, you can tell a lot from that. And wow, like this actually feels like CSI, it feels like it. We're taking samples, we're doing things, we're compiling comprehensive reports, which I was used to coming in from the clinical side. And um, I was like, Yeah, I I I think I could do this and specialize in this for four years. And that's when I applied for forensic. Pathology did not the clinic wanted me to stay ashamed. They were like, You're the only person we've had in a long time who actually has a passion for this. Would you and I was I enjoy teaching a lot. So they were like, Would you teach the students who are rotating with us?

SPEAKER_02 50:02

And um Yeah, and clearly uh you strike me as somebody who gets along with their colleagues. Yeah. Yeah. They wouldn't say tell you to stay if they were like glad to see you go.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Oh yeah. And I I was so scared of not having a job. I almost groomed the entire department to keep me in case I did not get a job.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

And I was asynchronous, so I wouldn't start on the 1st of Jan anyway. So I again was not guaranteed a post at a time. So I again just had to play my cards correctly. Got this diploma, and that's what got me into forensic medicine. There was no hype around it.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

And nobody no nobody's dying to get in.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Yeah. You guys missed. Um, so how do you get it? Where do you go? So I applied. So uh every uh every university has a specialization uh that is linked to an academic hospitals, just like surgery, just like pediatrics, and it's a forensic pathology department. So um there was one in Pretoria where I applied and I got the post. And I promise you for that interview, Shame. I think I posted it on um social media recently. Uh yo, oh the way I did not know a lot about how autopsies actually work in that interview. But I think that what I learned from clinical medicine, and they almost asked me what you asked me. Where does that empathy, where does it come from? What where does that come from? Because we want to see that. We want to see that anyone can cut open a body and proud of your organs and make a diagnosis, but you need a lot of grit, a lot of emotional resilience, a lot of support. So you need a lot for this job. And I think I'm I I think that's what actually set me apart. Okay, so you get into tax first time. So it it it wasn't tax. Um, it's another university in Vitoria. Oh, but SMU. SMU. Okay. Excellent. My wife specialized in that excellent, excellent, excellent, excellent.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

Close to my heart, SMU, yeah. Same, same, same, same. And my sister also specialized there. Yeah. Really?

SPEAKER_00 52:02

See, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So big respect, big respect. And then it's just four years of of cutting up. Four years of rich time, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

What's the difference between an autopsy and a post-mortem? Is it a difference?

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Same thing, same thing, same thing. Some would argue, um, so a post-mortem um um um could be like you could be in the post-mortem interval, you could be in the post-mortem, I wouldn't say postmortem era, it's very general, but um, you could be in the postmortem phase of life, right? Um, I can also do different kinds of post-mortem. So I can do one with my eyes, I can do one where I open the body up, and those have different names. Autopsy specifically is the examination of the body internally and externally.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

So that's the one where you have to cut.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Is the 100%. I give a postmortem report, but it's actually an autopsy report. It's also very uh stupid. Uh they're used interchangeably and uh they have the same illegal weight. So I use a post-mortem.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

And uh you you probably play an integral role in inquests. That's when inquest is like when nobody knows who's what the cause of death is. You know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean I work for medical protection, so one thing that Graham Howard taught me, because he loved autopsies. I mean, he loved deaths and registration of deaths. And he he he also tends to think that a lot of um deaths are marked as natural in South Africa when they are not natural. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why is that? I don't why is that?

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Like why do we just do the doctors just say natural cover things up or sinister? It's like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are are sometimes GPs in communities, in societies. People are gonna say this, people are gonna say that. There's a stigma behind unnatural death.

SPEAKER_03 53:43

So it's not ignorance. It's not just ignorance.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

So uh that's why uh med school, if it teaches anyone anything, and what I try and teach our medical students is to have that third eye, to have it mmm, the second you feel phone us, phone us, phone forensics and find out. Give us the story. We are here for the people.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

But who's actually legislated to like pronounce the cause of death?

SPEAKER_00 54:14

The doctor. Any any any doctor. Any doctor. Um so even by examining the body, I don't know this person from a bar of soap. Um I have the authority to sign that body off or to sign the death certificate off, and I get to independently make that decision whether it's natural or unnatural. And the paramedics? Period. Paramedics can certify death. They can't fill out the death certification or the death authentication.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

Oh, that's another thing. Graham was very big on. Big one. The difference between certifying and a death certificate. Two different things, right? Or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

High professionals, high profile cases, uh on that small time, uh, technicality can be uh a cause of death in uh could be a time of death in that minute or two. So something that again paranoies me at times. Yeah, but um I stick to the EMS, they are part of Allied Health, big respect. And uh the work they do in C is even more traumatizing. So huge respect. Yeah. So we're getting one on. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my goodness. My colleague. Another they need to uh yeah. Yeah, they deserve their own awards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to build churches for them.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

So when when do you specialize? Where do you finish?

SPEAKER_00 55:25

So I specialized and finished in five years, not four years. I did my masters in that time as well. I did it in gender-based violence, um, again from that passion seeping in from my clinical years. Um in 2023, so that was two years ago. Uh uh three years ago. Two and a year ago. The math is not mathing, but yeah. Yeah, that's the right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Uh when does the all the social does the social media stuff happen while you're student, or when does that get into life?

SPEAKER_00 55:54

No, no, no. So yours, so Rich Time was also yours. Yours, it was a lot. It was a lot, a lot, a lot. You can imagine the burden we have of unnatural deaths. Um, around 70 to 80 pathologists, specialized forensic pathologists in the country. Seven zero only. Seven zero in sixty million of us. Uh sixty years. I didn't know that's less than one in a million, I guess. Uh we are yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So um and then the workload is done by medical officers who have who have the um diploma. So I did the second diploma, which is in forensic pathology, that allows me to do autopsies. And so there's a lot of medical officers, but uh specialists is very difficult. We spend a year in anatomical pathology learning all the natural causes of death. If you have a heart attack right now and fall dead, did you poison him or did you have a heart attack? I should be able to do that in an autopsy and take a sample of your heart and look under the microscope. So it is pathology, anatomy on steroids. So the social media didn't come in back then at all. I sure I was actually in a regressive mode. Um time, it's hell time, it's rich time, right? Um, and then after that, my life changed significantly. Gosh, significantly. Um so you also know you walk, you walk up those steps and you take that. You know, when you join um the College of Forensic Pathologists, you want to cry, and I almost do want to cry because no one understands what it takes to walk up that stage and take that thing. There is no speech that you can give, there is no anything you can give when you're not. I'm sure even in your super specializations, it is only 80 people in this country know it know what it feels like. It's such a small college chamber, such everyone knows everyone. Um so so it was that feeling of sure. I found I found my thing. I found my my it thing in my life, and very thankful, very thankful to God for that.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

Yeah, I'm getting goosebumps hearing that that story. So you took your parents with you to to grad, obviously. Yeah, obviously. Yeah, they took me. They took you, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

Shame, no, no, no. I went, I went. My brothers, um, surgeons have to sh have to humble themselves, you know, educationally, not as high as pathologists, but um a different podcast, a different day. Um, so my whole family was there supporting me, uh, rooting with me. I'm also still the baby on the light family key. So I followed in footsteps but took a completely different uh a different um different direction. Beautiful, man. It's so beautiful. So uh at the time I didn't see it. It kind of like hits you now, it kind of hits you in retrospect. When you look back, like even looking at the name of your um podcast, I was telling my partner, I don't know. He asked me like why did you become a doctor? And I could not answer. I could not answer. It's not something that you can just give an answer to. Saving lives was a literally a 20 year-ago answer, and it's not what I do. So, how do you describe that? But I think you guys understand that.

SPEAKER_02 59:00

Exactly. Yeah, all these multiple factors that just influence you subtly.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

The brother makes me a proud doctor.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

The community, exactly. I think this is the answer. It's not one particular thing.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

This is the answer, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

Yeah, I um I was gonna go back and talk about like, you know, once upon a time I came across forensic pathology when we did um pathology in in university. I don't know if you guys had that segment, but it it was a toxicology sort of segment. Yeah. And I found it super interesting because it was snakes in a jar and I sorry in Mauritius, so we had things lit. Um but and like poisoning.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Yeah, different dynamics, demographics.

SPEAKER_01 59:46

Exactly. But then it came down to the actual like pathophysiology of chemicals and how chemicals affect the body. I was like, no way to teeth is so fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

It can last for what, up to years, it it it survives incineration, the pulp sits in the molars for how long? It's a Tully Mark answer on what you can get from teeth from the pulp that it holds DNA for years. Have you ever used that to identify uh yes, forensic odontology at SMU? Uh heads up. Uh they are excellent department, very passionate. Forensic odontology.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:23

Forensic Don't we know someone that's doing that? Yes, yes, I have a friend, Vumbai. She actually just went overseas and came back to get something. Yeah, so a liners, if you're wearing a liners, you can get away with like bite injuries. Is it?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

Yeah, yeah. Is it am I right that a lot of criminals get caught because they bite cheese at somebody's house?

unknown 1:00:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

And then there's like a bite mark. It's a myth or something. But they take bites of like the food in the house and then the forensic people.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

No, no, no, no. No, we've had like um dentists come with a mold where um suspects bite into, and uh we also call them to take accurate um uh pictures of the bite wounds. Because sure, there was at one point, I wasn't sure it was a human bite or dog bite. I was not educated in molars, and I I still don't know the human teeth at all. I look at that chart every time, like central incisor media guys, and because identification a veneer. What the hell is a veneer? Why the metal, why the porcelain, why the dust this? They come out in x-rays and like we need to identify. Um, so um, so the odontologists come out a lot and they help us here and help us um quite a lot. And it was a human bite turned out to be intense. It was a self-inflicted human bite from someone who was undertacked.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:41

Okay, so so after you've gone up those stairs at SMU and you've graduated and your whole family is there, yeah, you need to look for a job, or is it just easy?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

Sure. So um thankfully, so yeah, so thankfully I stayed on it. SMU um got my master's sorted out, published. Um, so that was quite a big achievement. Um, and I'm waiting for a consultant post. Okay. Sometimes from a senior registrar. Oh, lovely, lovely. I've been a specialist on paper.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

Now tell us, yeah, where does the social media come in? Like sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

So after I qualified, she was on a I was in a I was in a very good space for the first time in a long time. It's that it's that ball drops. That's uh being a doctor, it the ball drops. And I advise to doctors who are specializing wait for that moment. The ball will drop, and uh you will feel your worth. What 15 years down the line? You will feel it if you haven't dealt it yet. Um, I met my partner who is a huge social media influencer, and um again, sure, such a different mind game, different ball game. I'm sure you guys are still learning about it. Algorithms, lighting, audio, everything. Trolls. Sure, trolls, trolls. How do you deal with that? Trolls, our brown people, trolls. Get me started.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

I want to get you started on that because uh look, I'm new to the social media game, and because of the pod, I'm on TikTok. Let's be ready. And it's people have called me autistic on the spectrum, have shouted about me. So how do you, who've had 21 million views on one video?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

I hate to use the term uh pew pew, but you uh you you've got to be not to shoot back, to have a strong, strong member. Treat it like I would treat it in court. They can say what they want to say. Ain't no forensic pathologists like me that you're gonna see on your page. And by the way, I came up on your page, and by the way, you are commenting and causing traction on my postal jokes on you, Troll.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:40

Yeah, but you see, we as professionals, right, we've also got that other aspect to worry about, which is our colleagues. Um, we know that professional jealousy is a thing that happens. We are regulated by the HPCSA. Are you not afraid that one day somebody's gonna say something?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

Yeah, so I always make sure I get consent first, I always make sure I do things legally, especially coming from the medical legal department. Everything is um in set. And I also, I'm not the only forensic pathologist on social media. So uh there's two others who are in the public eye and media, and I consulted them with my partner first. Just what are the yeses, what are the no's, what are the big no-nos, what are the big yeses? And uh touch wood. Um the trolls have been quite calm and tame under um under my social media. But I think the hardest thing of social media is to actually get in front of a camera. It's a lot. Oh my goodness, you're exposing yourself, exposing your good parts, your bad parts, you're talking to yourself, you're talking to people. You know, it it it's a quite a big change, quite a big change. So I went the only route I knew, which was academia. I was the smartest. I I was at the peak, shame. I've it declined quite significantly after that, but I just passed my exam. So I was like, I am the smartest that I am now. I'll ever be. I will ever be, 100%. And um I could give knowledge in that way um on a social platform, and hopefully someone can learn something from it. Where did you start on? Which platform? On TikTok. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:13

I've been I've been afraid of TikTok, but yeah, it gets the views.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

No, no, I lie. I start on Instagram. Sorry, I start on Instagram. Yeah. Um, and then slowly morphed into TikTok. So a different field game, a different uh target audience, it I say. Um so um, yeah, yeah. So that's where I started, and that's when the different aspect of work uh came out through social media.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:40

It's also it's also a lot of work, it's hard work. Content creation.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I mean, you mentioned your partner, right? And he's also big, you know. Tell us more about that because it sounds like there was an intention you intended to have uh good social media standing and following with the curatorship of I'm assuming if you're part pointing because he's he's over yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:02

My support system is right right here. Um and uh, you know, he knew the ins and outs, he knew what to say, what not to say. Cancel culture. Um, what is okay? He understood the the TikTok generation, the Gen Z, we're dealing with a different generation. Um, what are the safe things to say? Also look at other doctors in the field. What are they doing? How are they doing it right? Play it safe. Play it safe, see who your audience is, see who your people are. And how did he know it? He curated me very well. He has been in the industry for what 10, uh, uh six, seven years as well. And also humble uh beginnings, now you know, you know, a whole income from that. So knew the system very well. So he would sit with me and actually narrate to me and teach me how to talk, how to look. That's where the lighting, everything. Um, so we don't have that reason. Such uh such because and there's quite a negative stigma around social media. Um it it it it really is. You're either on a WhatsApp group that is going ratchet or that is going okay, and you're not sure which side you're gonna land up on, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

Can you give me some advice uh on how to deal with negative comments? Uh don't uh without saying just be thick skinned. I mean, how do you do you speak to people?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

Do you like No, so I do not entertain at all. I actually reached a point there was a very targeted comment, very targeted, and uh I kind of actually knew who it was. And I was And then you knew the person. I knew I knew the alleged person, and I was like, I know every like content, uh uh contact in the SAPS field, in the uh um in the in the community, that same one I did the rape center in where I knew the comment came from, and I phoned that person. I think no, I realized sure it's draining me so much, it's not worth it. So I delete or I remove that some comment completely, and I do not entertain it at all. And you'll be surprised. Um my followers know this, they defend me, they they come up for me, and I keep I do not entertain those kind of trades.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

So it's a pro tip to if if there's trolls or negative comments, just delete it and move on.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:17

100%. And that works 100%, especially in the beginning, especially when you still are learning who your followers are. Your people, I haven't had one uh follower say, I came here to look for the negative comments, and I didn't find it. Already there to have your back. So you have to have a thick skin, remove any unwanted things. We uh r regulated heavily, things go viral very quickly and get taken out of context with a short text very quickly, very, very, very quickly. So I I go through every comment with love and care and I remove sure. Oh, there's uh our people.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:53

Yeah, no, definitely our people. But can I ask you why, in your opinion, why do you think people are like this in the first place? Are they looking for attention? Do they think there's anonymity?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

Like, they live, they breathe, they're alive, they must come on my table one of the days and I can spring them how it works. But as in your I think on my mortery table, um not your house, like dinner table. And you snow. No, no, no, no, no, and uh and with no knives around, they can definitely come over. Um but I I honestly think that um and it's those profiles with um no pictures, they don't they follow what two people or or or or they have it's it's a very odd, very odd account. You can see it at the burner account, right? So um I have actually a friend who's a troll of notes, love her, um, and she she's a queen of trolls, right? So she has like six, seven TikTok accounts, and she knows who to troll on what to count, and when things go sour, delete that account, starts a new one. Adds onwards. You do have insight into the underworld. It's okay. And I was like, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn. They love it. I don't know if it's uh a culture, but people love to be trolls. They love to be the negative, the they love to be the negative comments. Um I I sure it's that that's like a professional troll. Professional that's troll culture. Oh my goodness, they paid for it to one. The green profile picks that were against them, people were like, again, this is proper trolls. They know what to say, how to say it, how to create a stir up, you know? And then um again, now I see it as you're creating traction for something that I'm very passionate about. Um and I hope that comes through. So it's you have to have a thick skin. But also to not entertain them.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:48

Like the trolls, they think that because you you've decided to put yourself out there, you must get the good with the bad. They feel that way. But it's weird, hey, because in real life, nobody comes up to you and just talks crap to your face.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

100%, 100%. And sometimes what hurts me the most, and I said about it, people who know me, it is an inside comment. It is not a ugh from here or there, or are you a real doctor? Uh no, no, no. These are personal attacks. Even at times I was like, who in my family? I was like, literally, who in my family? You know, you are coming from my career like this, you know, I'm putting a lot out there, very intimidating. Um, I've learned now, thankfully, to get past that. I delete accounts. Instagram. Instagram is Trollhaven, TikTok as well. Uh the shame, they don't come for me so much. Um, lots of love. But uh your in your Instagram guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:41

Facebook is also with our people, as we said earlier, our people on Facebook. I've come to learn all the generation who I don't think understand how it works.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:49

They don't understand what goes on. It's not this dud uh with blue hair or uh other kinds of hair. Welcome from the document. I mean, if he was on your table, how would you document his hair? Disheveled very truly um you know in keeping with in keeping with culture, I would I would I would hopefully say. Um or a living psychiatric patient, I would always put you one of the same. Indicative of somebody from Peter Mannesburg.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:21

He's not just knee's hair chow in the in the additional comments. But you know what you were saying just now, like it's the our people, older community. I think it's the ignorance surrounding the fact that they think it's they're coming from a place of anonymity. One yet they'll have their profile picture at probably their home address in the background.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:42

And also they project their insecurities because when they say, look at that Indian guy, he's out there, he's doing well.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Let's bring him down. The thing is, I also don't fit the mold. I don't fit the mold of a doctor, I don't fit the mold of what I should be saying, I don't fit the mold of um, you know, you're supposed to be uh politically correct, you're supposed to not offend every single kind of society out there. Of course I'm gonna correct people, of course I'm gonna be myself, originally myself. So it's again that vulnerability of being a different and putting yourself out there. Um and sure. You see, I'd advise for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:19

Okay, well, I'll consult with you later. But but we are relatively on this podcast, yeah. Can I we're relatively conservative, right? And we're relatives. And we're relations. And I get trolled in real life, yeah. I don't need online trolls. Even with our conservative content, we know we've had a professional who was one of those John Doe types accounts, burner accounts, who said they're going to report a guest to the HP CSA for X, Y, and Z with our very conservative-ish. Now, like some of your content, uh especially the more recent one, is not as conservative as as us. And I tell my colleagues, every day I tell my colleagues at where I work, I mentioned it earlier. I said, it's only a matter of time before somebody reports me to the HPCSA because they just don't like me. Yeah. That's the reality. I mean, do you don't post blow up?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:10

It's it's it's scary because I deal with medical legal issues. I deal with something so sensitive, who has even seen how mortuary looks, who can even see what the environment is, who can even see blood in a concept like that, and make it presentable, make it academic. And I don't think it's ever been done in such a way before. And again, I'm appealing to the younger generation. These are the people who are going to change the future. The people we are molding, that doctor that was on that um TikTok will be something I want to aspire to, not the troll that made that comment. And it is uh sure, you know, especially these old and they circulate on groups. I once had in court a defense attorney say something about my social media to uh to the effect of how credible am I in terms of what I'm saying versus sensationalism, which is what a lot of uh creators do. Um I do it. I'm a lot away, you know. I mean, I mean I mean you have to get a hype around around something. And again, that is not court related, it's not legal, it's irrelevant why I'm here. If you're accusing me of something, please come to me in a civil court, not in an inquest um um court. Like the word people will come for you, they will come for your career. Yeah, basically be steadfast. Be steadfast and do things right. Even as much as you want to post it, my partner will tell you sometimes there's a leg in the background, or there's a there's a foot, or there's something, there's an identification feature in the background, like this was done so well. I will not post that.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:48

I mean basically ethical law uh language or that that lawyer was essentially saying because this guy is like all like hype on social media, you can't trust the credits. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:58

They come for any kind of aspect. So even now when I send my videos to my parents, shame, God bless them, it's a difficult it's difficult for them to digest. Difficult. Their friends are talking, even they're on the dental group. I don't know if you know my my uncle, Dr. Dr. Hafigy. He was quite well known in the um in the surgery. No, dentist. Okay. Um when uh when he passed away as well. Um then this I did a thing on forensic um odontology, and it was quite a sensitive issue in my family. Seeing me uh, you know, with uh blue hair, seeing me very alternative, nail polish, um, I'm going for it. But at the same time at work, I am not this person.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:42

Yeah, I mean our and our communities are quite conservative still, I mean to this day in 2015.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:46

Very so it's and we respect that. Respect that completely. There those communities raised us. Yeah. They raised us. We can't be blatant about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:54

We respect that. Yeah, we're not disparaging them, yeah. At all. You read my mind almost because the next comment I was about to make when you were talking about inspiring young people is that I feel personally, I love your content. The reason why I love it is because you're giving medicine good PR. And I feel like medicine needs good PR, all the PR it can get right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:15

100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:15

Nobody wants to study medicine anymore because they hear that there's unemployed doctors, they hear that you guys get paid peanuts relatively, you go through the most and there's no support systems. So I feel like you know you're making it cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:30

True. And and from my side, it's uh it's authentic. You the most recent post I think you had uh last week was you asked your dad if he knows what you do. And that's such an important question for for I know we're speaking about our people a lot, but it's not just uh you get into medicine and you study and you do what you need to do. It's it's this understanding to kind of unlearn and relearn, especially our older generation. I don't know if you're getting emotional or oh sorry. Yeah, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:03

I I sent that post um to Yak and I said, This is wholesome. We need to get this guy on.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:09

Um well done to you. Yeah, like we appreciate that was hard doing it for us. It was hard, it was hard, um especially yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:15

And it's good to make our parents proud, eh? Like yeah, 200%, too, that's hard. And and I haven't been on the best terms with my dad. So um again, and even to ask him to like, you know, with um with like a fancy light, and it was taken in one take, okay, in two, because my mum had to put her two cents in. Um but it was set so honestly, it was not pre-recorded, it was not planned, and it was purely something someone asked me, and I was like, hey dad. And I don't know if you guys experienced it, but I I've never heard my father say those things to me explicitly. You know, and I play that post over and over again, and it it it sparks joy in me.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:53

Yeah, it's good. There's a you must watch a clip on YouTube. It's it's about Asian parents in general. You've seen it proud parents. Yeah, about the proud thing. They they they'll do everything else but say I'm proud of you.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:04

And that is the love language of I'm proud of you.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:06

They even send you a sticker on WhatsApp saying proud instead of saying I'm proud of you.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:10

Every human being was over it. When I was a doctor when I I missed my graduation. We went overseas for for for a holiday. They were like, we don't care about another. It honestly was that uh exactly as you're saying it. And also understood what I do, understood what I am doing for the community, being a principal himself, understands what a community goes through, how they mourn, how they view doctors, how they view political issues, current issues. You raise many controversial issues, and sometimes we don't have to address it. The beauty of South Africa, and you guys had Riyadh Musa here, is humor. Humor breaks, uh, it breaks it connects all of us. It breaks all of us, it breaks barriers, all of us. And as I said, the Zulus, I think they they they invented it. Uh it's it it really is something we can connect on for a split second, and then we can go back to hating each other, it's fine. I tried to, I tried to get that South African Mzanzi spark. Uh we've lost it. We've lost it. Our doctors in state, shame.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:19

They're going through it. Look, I'm proud of you, and I I know your parents are and everything. You you're inspiring another generation of doctors and and healthcare needs it. Yes. And go on. And if you do get complaints, I hope you've got indemnity. I've got to have my own company because they're not paying me for this. But yeah, just just have some sort of indemnity. Of course. Yeah, yeah. What's what's next?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:37

I mean, what's the sure? Yeah. So so at the moment I'm enjoying the exposure. I think um I've been given a um platform now where I can actually make a change and make a difference. I feel like that bridge, especially in the field I work. It's such a morbid field, it's such an unknown field, it's such a taboo field. We don't think we don't talk about uh death in a at at all almost. Um, you know, so I think the next step from here is definitely I'm going to continue training and educating. Um I'm part of the examination um for the new upcoming forensic pathologists. Um and I hopefully will expand in the media um aspect. I'm not um I'm like nervously excited about where this will take me.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:31

We look forward to that and that authenticity. But just a step back a little bit. Um what about private sector? I mean, we've only spoken about state and the what the possibilities are for like your scope of practice. But private? Like is there anything that exists there?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. At least there's also a private pathologist, Dr. Um Dr. Fermel, for example, who did reverse and camp. Rich Permal. Um he's a very known um private pathologist. There is work. Uh our doctors are are doing private work in Joburg, Victoria. Um, we are available. It's not our main bread and uh butter of our scope. We still are forensic pathologists, but that private work will only happen once you experience in state. So, how experienced are you? How much have you seen? You know, can I pay you to give a credible report as a defense pathologist? You remember the state autopsy is always the first autopsy. You you were not there, no one else was there. I am getting paid by state, but uh it it it it's also it's my everyday job. So there is a scope for it, it's upcoming, and um hopefully again a scope I can hopefully tap into as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:51

Yeah, because I mean look, when everyone like assimilates themselves to what you do, it's probably through CSI, which is the series. But that is like that's private sector, right? That's not that's not state. They don't have that equipment to.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:11

It's a fancy a coroner in high heels, hair, hair out, giving a one-word diagnosis, slaying off. We don't we don't do that at all. Just just watch one of my videos. It it it it it it it's it's a lot that's happening behind the scenes. Well it looks like you're slaying though. I mean, I've seen more. Oh no, shame. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, shame. Uh uh you're seeing uh this up. It is it is actual it is actual um chaos at the back. And then we have mourning f families out front. And I think it's built our work morale a lot. Um, you know, I I don't ever want to bring down state. Um I don't ever want to show upset HR. Um but um you know I want to enjoy work and I think this is a beautiful avenue um in doing so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:59

I mean you come across as very passionate about uh it doesn't even matter whether it's it's private or 100%. Someone dies, I guess. That's what it is all about getting announcement.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:12

We always suspect poisoning or chardu or booty or uh black magic. It's always an issue. Um so sometimes you do need a private opinion when you said that um doctor who signs off that death certificate, that GP for the past 60 years. Don't know what's happening in that household. And you need that forensic eye sometimes. And there are pathologists who are available and who will do that. So what do you do for fun?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:41

Well, apart from your fun job.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:45

So um I love art. I've always had a very artifacty side, and um, I've taken the advice of my mom. Um What sort of art? Like painting help things? Painting, drawing some more um things on the canvas. I love acrylics a lot, hate watercolor, um anything, anatomy as well, anatomy art. My body is covered with anatomy um art as well. So I'm embracing my artifati um side as well. It kind of also takes the edge off my morbid um field a lot. I love to travel, sure. I travel four to five times a year, I would say, on average, with my parents or average travelers as well. So learning the world, seeing the world. I've even done a few um posts internationally on acute cause of death that I've come across of some king or queen, you know, um historically, and you know, that could be a fun, interesting fact. So um I um That's cool. That could be a segment. It's cool. It's very, very cool. We learned so much more. We learned so much more. Uh we were in Saudi recently, and my mom was like, just go and peep in the mock and just see how we do it. And I'm like, no, no, no, mother, this is on TV. Holy lands, only lands.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:56

No, no, no. I don't think I'll just try and pop in. But you made me think of something. I mean, is your workload high compared to like the UK or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:05

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I so I so I think the the the international cap um which was set in the US, um the US Cardinal Association is 250 bodies a year per doctor. So I'm easily seeing three or four times that amount. Sure. You know, and that's just me, and I'm not in the most busy um area. So you can imagine our doctors are loaded, the pathologists are loaded. It is insane. That's crazy. Again, we're at the bottom of health. You know, when you think of health, the bottom of health, and it makes sense. You should prioritize those who are alive first. Who gets to mop up what's left? Who gets to give closure to that family? I'm often the last doctor to see that person, you know, not the surgeon. So um uh hopefully this creates a bit more awareness of that. And I'm an optimistic human being. I appreciate life and the work I do. Beautiful, man. Oh, so art travel close to your parents still. And um my partner, biggest rock, biggest support system. Gosh, you know, you know, when you can come home and you can um you can make a joke of what you didn't of what you've seen in autopsy and someone really gets it and they yeah, yeah. Or they vomitaris, and you're kind of like, yes, it's out of my system. You know, it's even that's there's things you can't even tell a therapist sometimes. It's triggers that I've had. Um on a personal note, I was um held up at uh in an armed robbery um th three, four years ago, and I couldn't go back to work. I could not see a dead body on the table after you know, after a violent killing, and I took, sure, I was admitted for two weeks in a hospital and I needed to reboot. I needed to understand. I think from then I've taken my mental health very seriously. I understand or I need to. check in with myself if I'm not feeling okay. I we are human. We are human.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:05

Yeah, because you doctors don't have automatic access to counseling or therapy or anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:10

We're the highest we have the highest number of um doctors who are desensitized in the world. So it's if we rank in the world and this is across all specialities or across the medical field. So we almost come into it like that. And we cannot be emotional. We have to be objective. But Haibo, you must have a love for what you're doing. When you tell that family Hibo, it must pull that string in your heart. You know? So it it's that thing that um drives us.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:46

Yeah it's it's gonna take its toll on you as life goes on. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:49

And the older we get, I don't know, I'm we feel things a bit more things are a bit more emotional. The excitement of medicine is died down. Now I'm actually understanding what's happening. I'm going to court and I'm looking alleged criminals uh in the eye I'm hearing the story I'm not just seeing the body it it is sure yeah I don't know work work is work.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:13

Yeah so I mean might be a loaded question but but you've done the work and you mentioned art is you know something that you you channel and your partner but what what other things like for example people who don't have art or or partner how would what advice would you give to those people to to emphasize and prioritize their mental health in an otherwise stressful work environment even if it's not what you do which is one of the most stressful.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:45

Such an intuitive question um and I think forensics itself is isolating we are working in isolated offices we work in isolated environments it's very quiet dare I say deadly quiet environments um you know it's also the things we see we can't legally speak about so we also can't you know these are open cases there's been very isolated cases that come out in the news today's date and I'm like oh shoot I did that body you know um so sure advice for those people it's very difficult find what grounds you the most um and stick to that a I think B have a have a person have your go-to person almost like you know um um your emergency contacts have that person phone that person up and tell them what is troubling you on your mind you will probably find that you will come up with a solution you need someone to be like hey sounding board you know there's 100% something more and it as you said partners won't understand perhaps they work in the police force perhaps they also are doctors as well perhaps they are suffering as well um so find a person and seek help don't be afraid to seek help um there are wonderful wellness um state offers forensics wellness and when I was admitted it was um at state's cost they look after us we have a good wellness um department that looks after us very well do you listen to any podcasts uh not not you need to subscribe to other he's talking about this you must plug us tell your people to to to subscribe and follow me enjoy it did you enjoy this conversation very very lovely I started off very nervous I'm not gonna lie and uh I'm usually the nervous one here ask yak always oh my goodness I was yeah I was hydrating peeing yeah I was doing the most also um it is a lot to come up and speak about my personal stuff asking about work I can give you a syllabus in like two hours but ask me about myself how often do we actually speak about it and then link it you'll find the answers and I think that's the common thread my partner said you're not going to speak about forensics or dead bodies at all. We want to see what's behind the phase. We want to see what's happening behind.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:12

We want that spark in that follower that is watching this to think twice and be I said it I said it earlier but when I'm getting goosebumps again you can actually see them right? There we go. But but it's important you mentioned the nervous thing because people watching this will think oh yeah that guy is big on social media he loves talking about himself and putting himself out there but I can vouch for it you were really nervous and I know it's not it's not easy to come up and speak in our reflections episode where we gave gratitude to all our guests one of the things we said was thank you for the courage of coming up here because it's it doesn't just end here. This is just the three of the four of us in a room here the partner in the background but it's gonna go it's gonna go online people are gonna watch it 100 it takes courage.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:58

And thank you for saying that I think also what's going to your mind is the time and content creating and your day and everything I'm at work I'm recording these things late I have things to do I'm going home look pretty look presentable get your SHIT together it takes a lot of effort and people don't see what a one second scroll or to watch something to the end. But I promise you and I think I see it and I can feel it there is authenticity here. You guys are real and there's a lot of fake on social media there's not enough real and there is real in this circle and I feel almost part of a a community already so I think that is excellent work.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:42

Appreciate you guys we always feel like after we had the conversation with our guests I feel like I've known them for so long that feels like a therapy series. I want to take you guys home literally for uh yeah take us you know Riyadh Moose I I I the one thing I regretted from the Riyadh You were serious hey yes I was like when is this guy gonna get a joke? I also I'm serious I don't know I I thought it was gonna be a laugh a minute but I was like after that I felt oh my gosh did we did he not like us or something? I'm glad you said it because I felt it me too but what I regretted about because I love the Riyadh Musa episode I regretted not ending it off by saying thanks Riyadh you must come home because that's his line right that's you must come home but yeah you can you can take us and that's how we can have all the notes out and you put everything yeah but sincerely uh Yassin thank you so much for uh sharing with us and taking the time out of it's your weekend you could have been doing anything and but wait we didn't ask the question. Uh yeah do we want to do you want to ask? Because I've got the answer. You want to ask you I think he's important yeah go for it go the answer's yes. You go no the question we usually always ask I'm thinking of of retiring this question because it's becoming a bit but like I always say if somebody comes to you and says Doc I I'm inspired by your posts and stuff I want to be a forensic pathologist or just a doctor what uh what advice do you have for me?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:01

What would you tell them? You need to have a tough skin right and I think it's also the advice I gave you guys as well the world is rough forensics is uh is exposing the underbelly of society the autopsy is one tiny little fragment of social media is an even smaller fragment than that. You need to have a tough skin know yourself be yourself and um hone in on your strengths and that's what makes you uniquely you so have a tough skin no one can come for you and your accomplishments full stop.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:36

And it's not just what you see on TikTok it's all the other stuff complete opposite yeah yeah okay well sincerely again thank you so much man I appreciate it very appreciate it we're proud of you also so yeah thanks thanks for coming on thank you so much later shot thank you