SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back everyone. If you are a regular viewer and listener to our show, you might be a bit confused right now because, firstly, my co-host Yak, his hair is looking neat compared to what it usually looks like. Or I'll rather say less disheveled. I'm wearing a jacket for the first time on this show, a formal jacket. And we've got special mics on the table. The reason being is that we've got a V V V V V IP in studio with us today. You know, if if the president of the Republic is called the first citizen, I'm going to take a liberty and say that who we've got in this in the studio today is the first doctor in the country. Mr. Minister Arun Motswaleri, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much. I'm not sure, Minister, if you've watched any episode, but I if you if you haven't, I can break it down for you, right? No, I haven't. Okay. So here we don't talk politics, we don't talk anything like that. Our show is called Why Did I Become a Doctor, right? Yeah. And you know, the name gives it away, kind of, right? And we just speak to doctors, dentists, healthcare workers. We've even spoken to an accountant and and non-clinicians about their journey. Why did they do it? How did they get there? All that stuff. And because you're a VIP, I was planning now what is my introduction going to be. And I couldn't think of it until this morning when I was driving to the studio. As I drive to the studio, what I do is I put my iPhone on the car and I listen to my favorite music playlist. And there's an artist that came on. Her name is Tandiswa Mazwai. You know that of that artist, right? Yes, I do. And she's got a song that's called Nizalwa Ngubani. You know that song. If you don't, you'll you'll we'll we'll play it for you later. But the opening line of that is the world changes, revolutionaries die, and the children forget. Now I see Yak and Ile. We are millennials. We are the children, and we are forgetting. And what I hope that we can get out of this show is to hear your story and so that, you know, the children of now, that includes me and Yak, we won't forget. So with that, welcome. Thank you very much. So, Doc, take us all the way back, please. Can I call you Doctor?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Yes, what do we call you? Do we say Mr. Minister? Or they're all my titles. You choose whichever. He's unregistered. Sorry? You feel HPCSA registered?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

I was registered when I was a Minister of Health for 10 years. I was registering every year. Then I went to home affairs, I cut ties. When I want to go back, the amount of money they are goating, I don't have. No, I pause. Now they said when you want to restart registration, I thought I just start where I left. I pay them whatever they want. Now they are.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

I would have thought you would know a guy there.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Well, because they report to me, but they are an independent organization, a statutory body. Now, if if I can have that money which they are looking for, I'll have to register again. I always love to be a doctor at all material types.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

No, but the problem is if you register, then you are subject to their rules and regulations.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Of course I have to be. So you Do you know this is by the way, Dr. Yash and I do. He represents most of the private and public sector, medical and I work at medical protection, MPS.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

So he's an inside man.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Well, I am, but I'll be bound by their rules if I register, yes. I don't mind that. Yeah, don't worry, you know a guy. As I said, I I love being a doctor.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Yeah. So so so Doc, Mr. Minister, take us back, you know, to childhood. Where do you come from? What was it like? Why did you become a doctor?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah, I I come from Skukun District in Limpopo. In an area called Nebu, the the village called Pokwane. That's where I come from. Now, uh, why did I come a doctor? Uh I just loved it when I saw doctors working, but uh it so happened uh that when I was in standard five, it's called grade seven now. Yes, I was in standard five. I visited Johannesburg for the first time because my aunt, the eldest sister of my brother, is is is in Johannesburg in Soweto. I visited there. It so happened that one of her daughters, very much older than me, had just started nursing, you know, uh, at BBH Hospital, the former BBH Bragband Box Pet Binone Hospital, yes, which is now called O Artambo Memorial Hospital. She was from there, and she just told me that no, you need to come become a doctor. You are a wise young man, you'll become a doctor. I just loved the idea. But by that time I always enjoyed seeing doctors at work whenever I go to hospital.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

And that was all the way in grade seven, said it.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Yeah, and and that thing stuck in me. She said, Look, you can be a doctor. And I started having that dream that, oh, is that so? And she encouraged me. She said, No, you are smart enough to become a doctor. And so the idea just stuck with me. Uh I started living it. I started living that dream, the dream of becoming a doctor. And when I went to high school in Skukuna also, coincidentally in a school that was called Skucune Secondary School during that time, they told us that uh those who want to become doctors must choose mathematics as a subject. So I chose it because this dream uh was living on. I chose mathematics, which was very difficult at that time. But I still is difficult. I told on. And uh I went to a high school in a place called Stotolone, where most of the students, top students, also wanted to be doctors. But I must also add then at that time, as an African who was under bandwidth education, there were not many options. I must also add, there were not many options. Everybody who was doing well thought if I go to university, I gonna I've to become a doctor. So that also added to the impetus that were, because I was one of the students who were doing very well, there were not many options. Nowadays, you know, you hear children talking about becoming a CA. We didn't even know that there's something like that. Or becoming actual uh what do you call a scientist? We never knew. I I I I didn't even know that term, or to become an architect, you know. So what were the options in your days? Doctor, teacher? Yes. Or policeman? And abandon education, well, well, I'm talking about those who are regarded to be doing well, who have done mathematics and all that. Those who were regarded as the cream of the crop will only go to do medicine. And and and even abartheid system had planned it like that, because I know many people at the University of Natal, where I eventually went, who didn't want to become doctors. Uh, but they were forced into it because it so happened that Bang Education or the Apartheid system opened only a space in that direction, not in the others. What am I talking about? The University of Natal Medical School was called Black Section because it was a white, the University of Natal was a white university. In 1953, a faculty of medicine was opened for black people. That means Africans, Indians, and colored. That's why they call it black section. But there was still the white section where they were doing other courses, like as I'm telling you, engineering, artificial, and all that. To get into there, to get into medicine, you just have to apply to the university. But to get into all those other subjects, it goes beyond the university. You have got to apply to a minister of Bantu administration for a permission. I can't be sure of the title, whether it was a minister of Bantu Education, Bantu administration, or Bantu affairs, but some apartheid white minister who has to deal with uh the issues of black people. You have got to apply and give a permission and tell them why you want to be an engineer, or why do you want to be an architect? Yes, yes, or why do you want to do computer science? And and and and and and and there are quite a number of people who I know. Uh like uh the former MD of the Land Bank of South Africa, who eventually had to leave the country, had applied for that engineering. The university had told him that uh be continue while waiting for for the response from the minister so that you don't lose time, which means the university didn't mind him attending lectures while waiting for the permission from the minister. But the response came only in October, sorry, in September, and it was saying no, we can't do engineering. So he had to leave the country and go into exile. And when he arrived there, he changed course, he did economics, etc. That's why he eventually became a banker. So I do we do I do know of such people. And I know those who, the former DDG of health in Limpopo, who also come from my village, and and who left the country, by the way, and went outside the country, did not want to do engineering. But he found this whole thing because he knew figures, numbers. You know, so so he wanted to become an engineer, but the whole tedious job of applying for engineering was very difficult for him. So he opted for medicine. But somewhere towards the end of the year or so, he realized this is not for him. And he had to leave the country, you know, and and and join ANC in exile. Mr. Minister, what did your parents do? My parents, my mother was a housewife. Yeah. Yes. She only went up to standard four in her education, but she was very clever, I must add.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

My father was a school teacher.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Okay. So there there's teaching in the genes also there. You could have been a teacher, potentially. If if if you weren't that great at maths, maybe. I actually was.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah? Yes. What do you mean? Tell us? No, after after compl finishing metric, I didn't have money to go to medical school. My father, there were many of us at home. Even if my father was a teacher, a primary school teacher, there was no way you could cope. Uh there were many of us at home. I used to jokingly say we can form a football team.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

As in your brothers and sisters.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Yes, yes. We were 12 at home. And unfortunately, uh others passed away. By that time, we were nine at home, and uh, you couldn't cope. So he told me to go and try to raise money for one year. And there were no jobs in rural areas as becoming a teacher. So I went to a local high school and taught math there for the whole year. Wow. I was a privately paid teacher because I didn't train as a teacher. I taught mathematics. I enjoyed it very much. But the dream of becoming a doctor still lived on.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

So maths was difficult, but not just not for you.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

You were good at math. Uh I'll I'll tell you what. I think I was good at teaching because many of the kids I was teaching, they loved it. They loved me. But also at high school, I recognized something. There were maths buffins, people who were very good in meds. I was not one of them. I was just one of those. You know, I'm talking about A's during our time, because in Bantu education to get an A was next to a miracle. It was a very difficult thing. During that time, an entry to medical school means you had to get a C in English and in mathematics. That's all we're striving for. Yes, so so which uh one could achieve. But the the A's in maths, uh, who were very good, I discovered that they don't know how to teach the average students mathematics. So if I've understood the A's, I'll be able to explain the maths to the average student or the lower students much better. And that's what I enjoy the best. And even in teaching, it was like that. Yeah. Yeah, we've we've discussed. Somehow it means I was not a great mathematician. Great mathematicians are not good teachers of maths because they don't know what's what is that which you can't understand. But me, I knew that this part is difficult, this is how to explain it. And so that part of teaching I enjoyed. But I had to teach only for one year.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

We we had this discussion with our last guest where we said just because you're you're good academically doesn't necessarily mean you're good at teaching. So you're you're reinforcing it. Definitely. Um so what happens then after the one year of math tutoring, you make some money and apply to Natal.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

This is very funny. I was admitted to Natal, by the way. Uh uh and the only thing I didn't have is money. So the following year, when I thought I've raised a little bit of money as a private teacher, applying to Natal again, they said no, we no longer allow Africans to study here. What year was this? That was 1978. So they just changed the rules, though? They didn't just change the rules, it was the politics of the time, which is maybe yes, youngsters need to know. As I told you, Natal Medical School was the medical school was black section. It's called now Nelson Mandela School of Medicine. It was a black section where Africans, Indians, and colors were studying. No white was allowed. It was part of a partitry member. No white person was allowed. And you have got the University of Cape Town, you have got Vert University, you have got Pretoria, etc. So we were told that the white people in Natal complained why they are the only province where their children cannot study. Yet blacks, yet Africans, Indians, and colors are allowed to study, and their own children. They were they, you know, they were used to apartheid always favoring them. And they thought this time, this apartheid is now favoring. That's funny. Yes, black people. Uh uh. And they said, no, we want our children to study here. Now they can't allow Africans, Indians, color to study together and apartheid. So they started the process that all Indian students must go to the University of Depp and Westville. Deep and Westville was an Indian university, but there was no mathematics. I mean, there was no medicine, rather, not mathematics. So they started introducing it. At the time they reject me. Because uh medicine, pharmacy, BSC, optometry, first year courses are the same. Okay. Yeah, it's physics, chemistry, uh uh uh zoology or uh bottom or biological sciences. So they are the same. So those were there at Debian Westville. Then they introduced a second year, which is physiology and anatomy, which you only get at the medical school. Okay. Which means they were building up. Then the same thing of color students, they said, no, your universities dependen Westville in Cape Town. Not Deb and Westville rather, University of Western Cape. Westville is in Debian for Indian University of Western Cape. Western Cape. Yes, they said the colored people will go there. And they had also introduced anatomy in physiology to show that they were building up to that. Then at that time, they just started Medusa, Medical University of Southern Africa, which was meant for Africans only. So they were looking at your colors and say, Indian, go to Devon Westville. Colored, go to Western Cape. Wow. African, go to Medusa. So there's a lot of people. And so that's what that's what they told me over the phone and said, no, this time around, we're not admitting you. Go to your own.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

I can I can understand why you were a good teacher because I never knew this, yeah. And you you've you've explained that history for me so well. So Natal used to take blacks, colors, Indians. Yes. Suddenly they stopped. They said, Indians go to UDW. Yes. Uh, colors go to UWC, and blacks, you guys, you guys are going to Medoins. Medusa, yes. You would have just applied on the cusp of that change.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yes, I was on the cusp of that change. So I I then uh applied to University of the North, which was not the medical school, but they had a good size faculty. Right. For first year, I told you first year courses are the same. Yes. I did uh uh chemistry, physics, and biological sciences, and special English. Yes. So I studied there for a year. And there was a strike at University of North. The North. No, of the University of Natal. Medical students couldn't take it. Yeah. And the communities. That change of sales dividing people into racial groups, they couldn't take it. There was a strike, but it was also helped by the fact that most lecturers at the University of Natal Medical School were very progressive. I must add that. That also built my political career. They were very progressive. They never supported uh apartheid. So the students were on strike and it was very difficult for the apartheid government to handle it. So they abandoned. But also, something funny happened. The the what you call at that time, the the the Zululand was also a homeland. Just like Libova for Pedis, Zululand. I mean Zulu KwaZulu. KwaZulu, yes, it was also there. And and somehow the medical students went clever. Ingata party has just formed. It was not called Gengada Freedom Party, it was a cultural movement. They've just formed. And uh there was a sort of competition among the homeland leaders. And Medusa is in the area which was regarded F. Putwana under Mangwape, you know. So they went to tell Incata members, they said, look, you see, their party government undermines you. You know? They are undermining you. They are taking a medical school here and giving it to Mangwape, and you are folding your arms here, you know. It'll be very stupid to support that. And of course they fell into the trap and started fighting with the medical students when literally they used to be enemies. They fought together. But they could not handle that. So they dumped the plan and we continued studying.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

So where you moved to Natal then after?

SPEAKER_00 20:18

I finished my first year, then moved to Natal.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

And and then got into second year. Okay. But is did that also incorporate now the white students?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Or was it students results? They just wanted the state at school. The white students were incorporated after a part date.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Yes. It was they just let the state at school, they let poor Africans, Indians, and colors to continue as they were doing.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

So tell us, tell us, Mr. Minut, how was the Natal? Was it the first time you were surrounded by so many Indians?

SPEAKER_00 20:49

We don't got you some body shop. Look, I grew up in a rural area of Skukure, as I told you.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

In Limpopo. The nearest town was Pederspec, which was 120 kilometers from where I was. When you go to town, because in in my area, there was, I mean, I was born in the village of Pwana where I was born. There was an Indian family who were running a business, a big, in fact, the biggest business was run by that Indian family, the Abu brothers, who were regarded really as part of everybody else because everybody loved them. But they ran a business. And when I go to Pederspec, the Indian communities you see are also running business. So I got used to that that if you are Indian, you have to have a business and you are an employer at the same time. Now, yeah, I am. I'm going to Natal. By the way, I crossed the Transvaal for the first time in my life. I've never crossed the Transvaal in a train going to Natal. I arrived there. They told me you helped the station, look for a bus written oil refinery. There was an oil refinery just next door to the Alan Taylor residence where medical students were leaving. Then I told the driver's oil refinery, he stopped there, he knew the place very well. And he said, I looked at him, I said, hey, I want the university. You know, Alan Taylor residence where Indian colored and African students were staying, was not built as a university residence. It's in Beria. It was barracks. Barracks, okay. It was barracks built for soldiers to guard the Indian Ocean during the Second World War in 1945. So when those barracks were abandoned in 1953, they just said people will stay here. And it was part of Group Areas Ed, because in the main university in town, University of Natal, where white students were studying, there were residences, but no Indian colored or African student could be allowed there because Group Areas Ed did not allow it. So they had to go to Alan Taylor residence, which was in Wentworth, about 15 to 20 kilometers away from town. So they did not even have the decent of putting up a residence for them. They just said, oh, these parents are no longer used. In fact, the room in which I stayed was still the writings on the wall had not faded. The first room in Israel stayed had written stripping section. And uh my colleagues were staying at the ammunition center. Those letters were still there. So I stayed in the stripping section at Natal. So here I'm arriving, the bus driver showed me these barracks. I looked at him. I said, actually, I'm coming to study medicine. I wanted to. No, I didn't even know that they were barracks. They just look for inferior. Because you are used to university residences being multi-story buildings and you know. So he said, No, it is here. I said, Well, medical students study or stay. He said, It's here. I can tell you I was very disappointed. I thought about going back, man. This is not the place I was coming to anyway. I took my suitcases. I jumped out. Then I entered the gate. The first man, person I met, is one old Indian man doing the garden. That never happens in the transfer, I told you. All the Indian people are there running shops. So I put the suitcase again. I looked around and said, What country is this now? What not really what country? What SFI now entered it to?

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Because the foreign people don't realize this. My first my friend, when I took him to Durban for the first time, he said, Hey, yes, there's Indian taxi drivers here, man. Yeah, his name is Kefas. He's from Botswana.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah, okay. So yeah. So with me too, because I, you know, I stood and I looked around. I found it normal life. It was very funny for me. Yeah. I had to get used to the idea. But the friendliness there, yeah, everybody was very friendly. Okay. It was not like the University of, I think it's because there were very few. That hostel, uh, what do you call uh uh uh could carry only 400 people and so everybody knew each other, they became friendly to each other. Whereas at the University of the North, we are you are strangers to lots of people. Okay. And and some very unfriendly. So there I felt warmth and friendliness. And I also found the political atmosphere was was touched. How come? I think I'm not sure whether I could say I think it's many factors. One of them, as I said, uh the the the lecturers there, most of them, were strongly anti-apartheid. They didn't like what was happening. But secondly, you had people like uh Steve Biko who studied there. When I arrived, Steve Biko had just died, was had just been killed two years previously. Yes. So the and the because they were allowed political activity in other ways. So when you've got still what like Steve Biko, obviously, the politicization, because because on commemoration days you don't go to school, we had uh uh sessions, political sessions, where you invite speakers. For instance, at at that medical school, anybody who gets released from Robben Island, you can bring him there and and sit with him. So when I became the SRC president, I remember uh one of the first people who were released uh from Robben Island were the the what do you call the pro-Fraile Morale students who were arrested, black consciousness students who were arrested uh when they organized a pro-Fraile Morale in 1975. Uh one of them was Strenimutli. He's the first one who we invited to come. They address students in the evening. You get all the senior activists to sit with them and ask them, how is Robin Island, etc., etc. The other one was Seth Cooper. The other one was uh Terra Logot. All these were people who were arrested during that time who used to come. Then the old ANC style ones who who went there in the 60s when they started getting released, you call them. So the the the the political consciousness was very high. But one event I can't forget, the first week I arrived, uh they they they they had just established what we call release Mandela campaign, which was launched here in Gauti. And the a gentleman called Obremu Kwape, may his soul rest in peace. Uh, Obremukwena, not Mukwape, yes, came to Nadal to launch it. Now they were launching it at medical school. It's the campaign to release Mandela, remember. The only thing I knew about Mandela at that time was that he was arrested and sentenced at Drivania trial, together with Elias Mutua lady who happened to be my uncle.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

And when we spoke about it, they spoke in corners because look, they were supposed to be terrorists, you know. So now one of the speakers who was going to speak in that launch of Liz Mandela campaign is the dean of medical school, Professor Theodore Sakin. This was very funny for me because he's white, man. And he's a dean of a medical school. Back where I did my first year at the University of the North, and it's now called University of Limpope, a white person is an enemy. Especially if he's a lecturer, he's an enemy. The white person I know is a person like Johnson. Johnson was a lecturer in mathematics who clearly mentioned openly that black people have got the genetic incapacity to understand mathematics. He was teaching maths and said, no, any black students who come to do maths must know that genetically they are not wired to study mathematics. So when you fail, don't blame me. It's from God. So those are the white people you've been exposed to. Those are the white people I was exposed to. Yes, and and in biological scientists, gentlemen called Dener. Those were, you know, they were terrorizing you, not being being your lecturer. Now, that's the idea I've got of a white person at university. Now, here I am. There's a campaign to release Mandela, which definitely is a war against apartheid. And the speaker is the dean of medical school. This is another country.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

The garden is Indian and the speaker is white.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

This is another country. So I was inspired to go, very curious for that matter. Now look, at the University of the Northwest, I was because of the highest level of oppression was there, I must say. That's why eventually there was even the soldiers who came to park there and all that. During commemoration, like June the 16th, March 21st, etc., you just meet in a hall and somebody will shout, direction. And there will be an answer, police station. Then you all stand up, you march to a police station, then they shoot you, arrest other. What? I was used to that. That's hectic. Yeah? That is hectic. Yeah, it was hectic. But in Nadal, you sit and if you must go on strike, if you if you want to call a boycott, no strike, yes. You have to sit and debate in a student body meeting, and there's a democratic vote. Those who say yes, there must be a boycott if they win, you boycott, if you lose, your gradually go back. That's what it used to be. So this release Mandela campaign was one such meeting. Very peaceful. Then I was interested to hear, not Aubrey. Aubrey, I know he's an activist, he's a terrorist, and he's the one who's launching these insight people about releasing Mandela. So I know what to expect from him. He's one of us. The speaker who interested me was Professor Theodore Sakin. What the hell is he going to say? You know? And what he said was very simple. He just said, Look, I'm a professor of medicine in the university. He was an orthopedic head of department of speed. He said, I'm a professor of medicine working here at King Eighth Hospital. Sometimes he gets so overcrowded that some patients have to sleep below the bed of others. And if I must examine that patient, I must go down on my knee, drag them from under the bed, and examine them on the ground. He said, that's what I'm doing, because that's how it is. He then said, but five kilometers down the road, there is Aditel Hospital, which is a white hospital in terms of party. And he said, it's empty. The people you find there are mostly elderly white people who are there because of old age. Here in Kingard, you start even having young kids who suffer malnutrition because of hunger. And their peg likes are things. I must kneel down to examine them. And I simply cannot say there is space at Addington. It's not allowed under apartheid. You know? Then he said, my knowledge of medicine as a professor is not helping me to solve this obvious problem. Overcrowding in one place, a lot of space in the other, and we can't share. And yet we're living in the same country. And he said, I want Mandela to be released so that we start a new country and this problem gets solved. So I continue with what I know the best, medicine. So I don't have to fight these battles. And he said he believes that Mandela is a man who can bring that along. That appealed to me. Then I said, oh, so my study of medicine is not enough to help my people. I've got to get them free also. Even the white man who's teaching us believes so. That we're fighting whites, I know. I mean, we've been throwing stones. In June the 16th, in the high school where I was, I slept in a tree that night because a Colonel Fanzyl, Colonel Fanzale, came with an army of police to occupy our campus. So that one I'm used to, used to struggling. Now here is a new challenge. A professor said no. You got to make sure that Mandela is released. He will come and solve the problems we are experiencing here in this hospital. That appealed to me greatly, I must tell you.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Yeah, and you never never forget that, eh?

SPEAKER_00 34:54

I there's no way I can forget something like that. It was it was very instructive, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

But now, Mr. Minister, as a SRC president, right? How do you pass medicine doing all these other things? Did you pass? Of course I passed. No, I mean like oh, I mean, did you pass like in one goal? With flying colours.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Because surely you never not with flying colours. I didn't pass with flying colours, but I passed very comfortably. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

I I never failed any we managed to balance.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah. From look, since passing Medriga, I never had to repeat or fail or write a sub in any subject from University of Limpopo until Nata. I I I passed comfortably, but not with flying colours. That's amazing. That's still an achievement to just pass. I was from Bandu Education at the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

And also maths had nothing to do with medicine. So I'm not even sure why there's a prerequisite. Well, I'm asking the wrong person. Prerequisite of to do maths in order to get into medicine.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Look, they they said you have to get the C in maths and English pattern. In the University of Limpopo, I forgot. They forced us to do uh mathematics. Uh we we yeah we used to do calculus, we did algebra. It was called mathematical methods.

SPEAKER_03 36:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

You know? And they told us if you fail it, you're not gonna be admitted for medicine. So it was just a way to pull you back. Because you're right. Metric mathematics is enough. But fortunately, in Medusa, because most of the people who were teaching there were Africaners at that time, they seemed to have struck to that. In Natal, no. They they didn't. They said once we had passed your medicine, Matrigue is enough.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

It's an interesting, interesting observation by Yash. I mean, you were getting involved there at that stage politically, but also had to study medicine at the same time. I mean, they paralleled with one another. But how how do you think you managed both? How do you think you managed How did I manage what? Your career uh as just starting to be a doctor then at that stage. And also your political career starting to take.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

You mean after completing? Yeah. Well, look, there was no way during our era to be an activist and not get involved in one or the other with ANC affairs. It was part of, you know, the struggle at that time. So you grew knowing that you have got to keep them uh together. At that time, they they will tell you about the the the discipline that was imposed in the ANC, the the Communist Party, you know, and the and and and the South African uh trade unions, Congress of Trade Unions. You know, so you you grew up knowing about these legends, you know, and uh and and and Dr. Yusuf Dadu in the Indian Congress, Dr. Naika and Dr. Kuma, they called it the doctor's pact. They were all medical doctors, and they had this pact about liberation, so it inspires you, but it also forces you to be disciplined. So what do you do after you qualify? I did internship in Natal, and from there I left. I went to the the Bushpar to Bushparge, uh a hospital called Masana, which is is to in today's in Pumalanga. I went to work there. ComServe.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

There was no comsurf those days during our time.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

There was internship just for one year. No, I was going to work as a fool. I was a free doctor now. Independent. I worked there. Were you making money? Good money. Yeah. Was it good money? Uh yes, at that time it was good money. Because as an intern, I was earning 925 Rand. Yes. But you know, the W do when you go to the U.S. Mr.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Minister, when we speak to all our timers, they tell us no, in our day, five Rand, you could buy a loaf of bread, two Cokes, uh, come back with cheaper. Well, they were right.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Because I bought a car, a brand new Volkswagen Passat while I was doing internship. You see, but it was 100 cars. It was 10,000 Rand cash. Wow. And the I and the instalment was 250 Rand. So yeah, right. Do you remember what you did with your first salary? My first salary, I remember very well. It's something that can never be forgotten by any human being. Tell us, please. I told my father was an ordinary teacher. I had a younger brother who had just passed me a trick. He was going to Fort Hair to do a degree in biochemistry. And my father wrote to me to say, look, they need a thousand rand registration. And we don't have. You have just a little word, please help. Now it is, it was at the end of January when I got my first salary of 925 rand. And here is my younger brother who's looking for 1,000 rand. So I was short of 75 to help him. I went to a friend of mine who brought me 75 Rand. I added to my salary. The whole salary I pegged and sent to Ford Hay uh for his registration. And I said, I'll eat in the DQ. They were giving us food there. I don't need any other money. I'll see what I do with the next salary. So I sent my brother to Fort Hay with that first salary. Amazing. And guess what? He's a professor of medicine now. Wow. Wow. At at at at Sefakuma Hart. He pays you back there. We still help each other. We can't forget that. He's a professor of dermatology.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Yeah, at SMU. Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Amazing. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

SMU has a very special place in my heart because my sister specialized there and my wife specialized there.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Well, my brother is a professor there because when when he was now doing biochemistry in Fort H. Remember, I was doing internship, my first salary. Second year I went to my Masana. Then from there, 1986, I went to open a practice. And so all his fees were paid by me. So I sat down with him, I said, look, there was one good thing that was happening during that time. The issue of bazaries for medical students. They were also not very strict like now. So I told him, look, this biochemistry we are doing, it's going to be heavy for me. It's already heavy for me. Why don't you go to Medusa and do medicine? You'll get a bazar. And he thought, no, I never thought about it. I said, please try. He was already doing second year of biochemistry. So he went to Medusa the following year. And they admitted him in second year in medicine. And you got the bazaring. That's why he's a professor today.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

What an amazing. That's the best 925 you've spent in your life.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Yes, yes, absolutely. We need to get him on and get his version of it.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

But put in a word for us. We can get him on the show also. Mr. Merisan.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

My parada is not very talkative, but I'm sure he'll talk to you about it, yes. It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

I mean, I'm conscious that we only have limited time with you. So I have to speed up ahead here. Um, even though I would love to speak for another hour. What when was the last time you you've seen a patient or treated one? Mine was 10 years ago. Ew, me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Phew, me is 32 years ago. Do you miss it? Uh 1994. I didn't plan to get to. I was an activist, look. Very serious activist. Working with ANC underground structures. I opened my surgery in Gen First, and it so happened that around about 86, a lot of people were infiltrated by the ANC into the country in rural areas. And they used to come to my practice. When I asked them, they said no. We were told that when we stranded, we must come here. So I ended up joining one group of them who I came to prove later through Chris Hardy that actually they were known from outside. So I was very active. Now, when ANC was launched, my practice was visually an ANC office in Skukuri. Everybody was coming there. Then it so happened that you realized when you come from Natal, there's one thing you realize that your knowledge and understanding of life and politics is more than average, more than. People around Amastate. But when you are a GP, you also become everything. A social worker, a lawyer, a doctor, a psychologist, a counselor. So that happened to me. Now with ANC, it was added. The people there believe if you want to know anything about ANC, that's the place to go immediately after the unbanning. So I got very involved. I still remember one day, because then it's your job to become an activist. One day, the sister I was working with came running to my office. Doctor, Doctor, when I said they said, look outside. I found taxi people with their Jesses tied around their waist and all that, surrounding the practice. Said, what's going on? Then there was a taxi war, they were fighting. And they were coming to confront me that you know that you are fighting and you are not coming to what you call to separate us. It means you love money because you have got the skill to bring us together. In other words, they were demanding data must get you to their better. So whether I like it or not, then the traditional leaders in the area, when they fight for the throne, they come to me to mediate. So that's the type of life I sort of living. But immediately after the unbanning, I became the chairperson of the first ANC branch in Jenfest. End of that year, there was a conference. I was chosen the deputy chairperson of ANC in Limpopo. It was not yet Limpopo, it was called Northern Transvaal. I became a deputy to Joel Nechitenje, I'm sure you know him. Joel, he was the first chairperson. Okay. I debutized him. So I just couldn't stay in my practice. I had to go to ANC meetings and do all that. Then during elections, I took leave. I was in charge of some of the areas in Stukuno for elections. Then the following day, when they were counting, I mean at the end of that week, remember that election was run for a week. Okay. Yes, it was run for a week because it was complex. So at the end of that week, they said we must come to Petersburg. And I went there. They told me, no, you are going to parliament. Wow. What? I'm a doctor. They said, look, you are one of the people who are coming to parliament. The one in Limpopo, not Cape Town, the provincial legislature. And they said no. I said, no, but my apprentice, I said, look, ANC told us that you have to be part of the team that goes into the legislature. Now, this brother of mine, who is a professor, had just completed medicine just on time and internship. And I had asked him to go and run the practice while I went to Polo Kwan. He went there to to work for me while I went to Polo Kwan. And I never came back from Polo Kwan. So he never went back to the hospital. He never went back to the hospital. He took over the practice until he decided to go and specialize in me doing so. And that's when I had to sell the practice to somebody. So he ran it about, I think, for a year or two. And you don't miss practice at all. I do. Yeah? I do, because I used to love to. I definitely do. Well, I still enjoy being a doctor, that I must tell you.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

At least if politics doesn't work out, you can always go back. What's next, Mr.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

I'm very old. Not a small boy. I'm going to be 68 in August this year. So that's not a very young. I I see that as young. I see that as young. Okay, I'm still young. No.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

My dad is 78. So anybody younger than my father is still young.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

And you look very fit and healthy. And the way you remember, I mean, you you said you were you're good at math, but you just remember numbers just like that from this interview. You asked you how when last you saw a patient, I would have thought you would have had to think hard about that.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

I think it's just the manner in which God differentially gifted people. For some reason, I don't easily forget numbers. Okay. I easily forget sentences. The names, but not numbers. For some reason, they just tick. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Mr. Minister, we were talking to our last guest on Saturday, and I was telling him, because he's a he's quite a famous guy on social media, Dr. Bismillah, he's a forensic pathologist. Yes. He's one of his videos has 21 million views. Now, and I told him he is why I enjoy him is because he's making medicine popular again. Have you noticed that medicine has got bad, a bad reputation these days? Nobody wants to study it anymore. Medicine? I feel like I don't know from a professional. No ways. What do you think, though?

SPEAKER_00 48:59

No, that's this is my thoughts. What do you think? No ways. No ways. Medical students are fighting. I mean, from metrics students are fighting for positions in medical schools. That's why even a C can no longer enter medical school. Yeah. Because of sheer numbers. But partly, unfortunately, I must concede, is because again, it is the only area where you you I need to use a very appropriate word. Where you get a job. Yes. Many students will tell you, they were told, if you study medicine, you'll get a job. Unfortunately, that is now a little bit shaky because there are many, many doctors who are being produced. For instance, medicine used to be called a scarce skill. The scarce skill are skills that are needed in the country, socioeconomically. But where the the people in the supply is very low is a scarce skill, meaning what? That the minister of home affairs must gazette such skills every year. It used to be every year, sorry, every four years. Now it has changed to every year when I left home affairs. The Minister of Home Affairs will gazette and say this is a scarce skill. Any person from any part of the world, if you come with a TV kit on that, you automatically earn a work visa. Whereas others have to apply for a, you know, so you call it a scarce skill visa. When I was in home affairs, that was removed. Only a specialist in medicine is a scare skill, not an MBCHP. So you can see the success of the world is changing. Exactly. Sort of the profession. Because when we arrived, when I arrived in health in 2009, I agreed with the late Brave Gordon. I was very close to him.

SPEAKER_03 51:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Because I met him. He was a pharmacist in Natal and an activist. And our mentor, one of our mentors, Brave Gordon. So when he was a minister of finance, I had an agreement with him that we need to ratchet the training of doctors from 1,200 per annum to about 3,000. We haven't really achieved that, but we're somewhere at 2,800. A far cry from the 1,200, which was then in 2009 when I arrived. And also by 20, when the Cuban medical student training started, we used to send 60 students. We increased to 20. In 2011, we increased to 1,000. Sure. A thousand students leaving South Africa to go to Cuba. So all those numbers accumulated. The increase in medical schools and all that to produce even more and more doctors. But it is still popular, admittedly. Okay. All right. Yeah. You stand correct that the only thing that could maybe maybe let me say two things. There are many other avenues for students who are said to be doing very well. I don't want to say clever students. Students who are said to be brilliant. They can do it, go into actual nowadays, AI and all that. Can become podcasters. Yeah, can become a exactly so lots of things are open for them, definitely. But uh yeah, they are open for them, but also during my time, a doctor was regarded as the prestigious status. It's no longer like that. You see ten trainers who never went to school here driving Lamborghinis with money stolen from Timbiza's hospital. Oh, 100%, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yes. So so it's sort of a little bit changing, but I must tell you.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

It's no longer sexy. That's the thing. I'm saying it's no longer sexy.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Yeah, but still in demand. Yeah, maybe you you can say so. Yeah. It's no longer like that. Because during my time, I used to respect people who do engineering because they are mathematics buffins. Exactly. I was not very good in maths, as I told you. So when I see a guy doing engineering, this guy's mathematics or architect, you know. But they were still, those who were medical students were still regarded as prestigious. You know, it's a prestigious, what you call decree that even the engineers who I used to respect so much. One lady joked one day, uh I was sitting with a colleague who was doing engineering. He said, No, no, no, I won't be married by an engineer, I want the doctor. I said, no, but engineers are cleverer than us. He said, I at home there they believe it's a mechanic. Yes. My mother won't respect me. It's so true. Yeah, so yes, so it was a sexiness at that time, it's no longer like that now. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

But we're trying, we're trying to make it more popular. I think this country will always need doctors, and we need to make it safe.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Absolutely, but I forgot to add another fact, yes, which might be discouraging youngsters. And it's very serious. During my time, public health was the private health was a convenience store, sort of. Now things are tiny. All the resources are being thrown into private health care, which is taking care of only 14% of the population. There is a lot of very heavy disinvestment in public health. Very heavy disinvestment. Now, in pub private health, taking care of very few people and they've got everything. In public health, you still have all you know the medicine orphins. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 54:55

But that's why you got admitted to uh have you ever been in a public hospital, yeah? Yeah, I have. I've been admitted.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

Well, that's because of course I do go to Steve Pickle. I've been admitted three times.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

That that that's the place to go, because all the all the orphans are there.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Yes, yes. But I you are aware that I've just done my cataract at St. John's Hospital. Was it St. John's Hospital? Last September. And uh it was in the papers. It was a big thing. There's no patient confidentiality for a minister, yeah. No, no, no. It was a big thing, which should not be. Because during our time, that's how it used to be. You go to King Edward, you go to whatever hospital, RKAN, and that's why you used to get treatment. Now all those things have been washed off in favor of private health care, such that human beings believe the only best good quality healthcare is in private health. That's why some of the journalists even said, I I'm risking my eyesight by going to a public hospital. You know, I I laughed at them because uh the the the young lady who operated on me, uh uh Dr. Natasha Naidu, she's brilliant. She's lecturing people adverts, and and she's teaching people how to do cataract. But and and people she teaches go to private practice the following day, and and and now they believe they are better than her because the narrative is growing that if you want good health care, you can only go to a private hospital. That's not true. I'm running the system I know, and I've told that to the president. It's because resources, even government resources, are being thrown into the private sector. They said, no, no, no, you're lying. That's private money from medical aid scheme. That's not true. And there are people who think like that, even very highly educated people, even you might be thinking like that because information is not really available. The government subsidizes private health care for 70 billion rand every year. Because everybody who's on a medical aid working for the state, starting with the president, has got a subsidy. When you add that subsidy, it's 70 billion. It goes to private health care. On top of that, every person who's on a medical aid, regardless of who their employer is, has got tax credits or tax rebates. It's 83 billion, as I'm speaking. So you've got 103 billion rand every year moving from the government coffers to the private sector to take care of 14% of the population, leaving 86% to struggle. That's not doesn't sound right, eh? Yes, that's why that's why we insisting on this universal health coverage which you call NHI, and people don't understand it. It's not right. As I'm sitting here, there is a hospital, I'm not going to name it because I'm not here to name and shame everybody, but it's it's it's practical. There's a hospital in the center of Johannesburg, which name I won't give. They've got 57 gynecologists there, specialist gynecologists. What is the significance of that? Mpumalanga province, Limpopo province, Northwest province, all added together. They don't have 57 gynecologists. But one private clinic has got. How fair is that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

I I attended your webinar last week, so I remember.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Oh, you were there? Yeah, at the when uh the clinics group. Yes, clinics group. Oh, were you there? I was online, yeah. Uh that point really blew my mind. But didn't you notice something that was not good then? Right? On the screen, the people who were sending Oh, a lot a lot of hate.

SPEAKER_02 58:57

You know, a lot of hate message. Yeah. There were white people. Is it? I wasn't reading names.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

No, no, I was reading because I know, because why? The 14% of the population who are on medical scheme. If you go to the white population, 72% of white people have got medical aids. These subsidies go to them. But among blacks, it's only 10%. It covers only 10% of the population. So here, it is gross inequality. And yet when you call G20, which everybody agreed with, we said solidarity, equality, and sustainability. Yes. And we need to live that equality.

SPEAKER_03 59:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Equity. In fact, the South Africa is the most divided country in the whole world. That you know.

SPEAKER_03 59:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

If you want that division, you come to health. There is no aspect of South African life where you don't see that gross inequality. Then in the healthcare system. We've seen it, we worked in it. We worked in it first time. Because, yes, when a person with medical aid is sick, including me, I've got a very expensive medical aid. When you are sick, you know where to go and what's going to happen. But the rest of the population is a big struggle. I mean, where I was at St. John's, they see 700 people every day. 700. And they do 3,000 cataract operations and you had with Mika resources.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

Mr. Minister, you must do us a favor and put in a word with your ophthalmologist, Natasha Naidu, to come on the show, please. I'm going to get in trouble your speech also for making you in late for your next meeting. You want Natasha?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

Can you put in a word? I mean, we we we haven't had an ophthalmologist yet on the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

I will, and I told her because ever since I was there, and the media expected me to get blind. And yeah, I'm not getting any blind.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:53

She must have been so nervous. I feel sorry for Dr. Nido. She must have been so nervous operating on the No, no, she was relaxed.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

Yeah. She was relaxed and they were very happy. Now I am saying, while the media is still expecting me to get blind, ordinary people don't think so. They phone me every time. Even those who have done cataract operations everywhere, they still want to go and be checked by her. Two weeks ago, I was there for my last checkup. I said, Dr. Lade, you are in trouble now. People want to come. And there are colleague ministers who said, Hey, can you send us to that doctor of yours? So I said, get ready for I tell her, give her give her our details. I'll I'll give yeah, I'll give you the details. I think she'll love to what do you call it to talk to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

Yeah, if the minister says that you've got you got to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:45

We always ask this question in closing, Mr. Minister. Um, and I'd be interested to hear what you think. So we always say to some to our guests, if somebody comes to you, like your child or a young student and says to you, Mr. Minister, I'm thinking of doing medicine one day, do you have any advice for me? What would you tell those people?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:03

Oh, yes, I'll encourage them. By the way, my firstborn doctor is a is a specialist. In what specialty? Family medicine. She just qualified. When was it? Late last year, was it in October? Oh, congratulations. Yes. She yeah, she is now a big boss at a mining hospital there in Rastenberg. Nice. Yes, she is.

unknown 1:02:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

And as I told you, my my brother, the one I helped in forte, is a professor. Yes. And my younger sister is a specialist in microbiology.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:38

She was also in Medusa. So. So you didn't encourage it and said go for it? Oh, yes, I will. Definitely. Okay. At any time, at any material time, I would encourage it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

Is there anything else we didn't cover that you want to cover before you leave for your next meeting? It's late in the evening and you've got another meeting.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

Yes, no, no, no, no. I think I enjoyed this interview. I enjoyed it very much. I I'll definitely call uh Dr. Natasha Naitu for you. I'll ask my brother, but he's a very please, please do. Yeah, he's a very shy person. I'm not sure whether it'd be enthusiastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:12

And you must start listening. Like and subscribe to this podcast. It's free, Mr. Minister. Don't worry. No, it's not free. We're going to give you some body chow now because we got some for you. But thank you so much, Mr. Minister. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:23

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

Thank you. We'll see you later. Thank you. Ciao. Sure. How was that, Jens?