SPEAKER_00 0:00

Doctor Tsame Tse Muslamonyani.

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Just just call me Doc uh just call me Zamitse Muslamonyan.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Oh tsa. Can't I just call you Dr. T, like what we used to call you?

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Oh well, if yeah, I mean for you that's uh comfort, but I prefer T samitse.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Do you do you remember okay, firstly, for the viewers and the listeners, this is a doctor turned lawyer, turned doctor again. I don't know what's the next turn gonna happen, but that's our our guest for today. Is a doctor who became a lawyer, a proper lawyer, not just the LLB. He actually practiced and then went back to medicine. Do you remember when we met, Dr. T? Or how we met?

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Um yeah, it was uh for me, it was a blessing. It was wonderful. Yeah. Um, because it was uh that call that you had made from um Norton Rose, and where there was an investigation that was uh going on, and at the moment at the time, I think I was the uh chief investigator. So because of it was a high-profile case, we we had to mingle.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yes, okay, you're describing it exactly how I would have. I I'll never forget, yeah, it was a high-profile case. You were the chief investigator at the HPCSA at the time, right? Well, I won't get into details, obviously, for confidentiality reasons, so don't stress, I'm not gonna expose too much. But I remember being like dealing with you, because you know, I I was at Norton Rose, private law firm, right? And you get the HPCSA creature of statute, right? That's correct. And um I always look at people's names and what's on their signatures, and I see, hold on, this guy is a medical doctor, but he's also got an LLB. And I remember interacting with you on that case, and then towards the latter part of it, I said to my uh colleagues, hey, this guy's a doctor and a and uh lawyer, why don't we get him to work here? And I spoke to my people, and I think we also chatted on the phone. I'm like, aren't you interested in doing your articles or something? And then it just happened, eh? Within a month or two.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Yeah, I remember during that uh discussion, I had to like, no, yes, please, can we keep it separate? Can we pause this uh discussion so that we deal with the investigation? And um once this whole thing is water under the bridge, then we we can uh resume the communication.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, it's good. I think it's good you put it on the record. We dealt with it very professionally, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Yeah, no, um, I don't know what you what you heard uh during the conversation because I didn't know how you captured that it was from actually from the signature.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Yeah, I think uh where did I it must have been on your signature or something. How did I figure it out?

SPEAKER_03 2:34

No, because you asked me, Doc, are you a are you a lawyer as well?

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Um I'm like, no, I I've done my LLB, I've done my PLT, I've finished the the board exams, I'm just waiting for my break.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

I must have known it because my colleagues will know I do a lot of research. Research. So I probably knew it. I wouldn't have asked you if I didn't know the question, if I didn't know the answer. Okay, but anyway, we've we've skipped way ahead. Dr. T. Where are you from? How what was it like growing up? Where were you from? What led you to this path of choosing a few careers that a lot of people look at on TV and think is glamorous, but I I guess in reality it's a different story altogether. Take take us back to childhood, man.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Okay, um, what uh the 2000s regard as uh my 2000s, yeah. Yeah, my 2000 regard as uh the grandfathers. Um one of the the 80s, the very early 80s or the beginning of the 80s. Um was born in Dwane, that's Dennton, in now Limpopo. That's uh yeah, uh 789 kilometers from where we're at in Devon. And I was born in the family of uh seven. Um the fourth child, the so-called middle child. And both my parents are still alive. Uh, my grandmother, my maternal grandmother has been with us. Um, I think she's turning 108 next month.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

And yeah, we we grew up as that unit uh in the village. Then there was that uh state of emergency in 1986. Um then we had to move because my father was uh very active around that time. So we moved to Marble Hall. And where's Marble Hall? Marble Hall is also in Limpop. You know, when you go R25 from Kempton Park, you drive um to Khrobesdal. When you get to Khrobesdal, then you take a turn left, you go to Marble Hall. It's uh it's uh it's a farm, it's a farm area. Umblehall and that's uh their main um economic activity around that site. Then in 1988, my father bought um a property in Ekangana that's around Brong Spread. The Brong Spread on the way to Pretoria, between Pretoria and uh Middle uh and Widbank. So we we moved there, and that's where I think I was uh I had just passed my grade one or sub A. We call it sub A in Ghauteng or the Transvaal back in the day. Then we went to pre uh primary school there and uh high school, then 1998 completed uh my metric, then um I went to University of Kutore. Okay. And yeah, at the I think the first four days I was not um immediately admitted into medicine. So the first four days I was made to go and attend uh BSC. Right. Um then on Wednesday, I'm like, you know what, these guys uh I think they're going to waste my time because if Meduins accepted me, we went walk in at Vets and they accepted me, and these guys want me to do this uh bridging course. Then I called um one of my my my cousins that we grew up with, and I told him, you know what, I want you to accompany me to main campus, to medical campus, and uh the following day on a Thursday, I think on Wednesday or Thursday. This was 1999. 1999, um January or February, I think, yeah, around there. So we went there and with uh my broken English, we I got a meeting with uh Professor Somar Kre. Um she was responsible for students, and then I told her, you know what, I did not come here for what is going on. And uh I think you guys will be wasting my time if I have to spend the whole year sitting here when my peers are busy dissecting there or doing whatever they do. And uh I think just out of that, yeah, I think it was Wednesday, because on Thursday afternoon I received a call to say you can go join your peers tomorrow and uh do your do your medicine.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

But you took the initiative at least. Uh yes, it was both it. But hold on, hold on. But so you got accepted into WITS and Medunas and Meduns. So why did you still go to Pretoria?

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Um, you see, when you come from uh economically disadvantaged background, you you have limited um choices. Yeah. Now my father works in Pretoria and Pretoria is only about 57k away from home. So if things don't go well, you can always uh fall back to home. Okay. Now from there to VET it's about another 40K, and the support structure is not there. When you go into Medusa, it's another 40k. So I had to now make that uh calculation to say I think this is the this is the best bet. Then I stayed there. My father you uh worked at uh South African Preserve Bank and so it was like CBD versus uh being in Hatfield. Okay, and you either take a taxi there or you you walk, whichever way.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

And why did you choose medicine or this just out of the blue?

SPEAKER_03 8:15

No, uh okay, this is this is what happened. Um I think growing up, my academically, my father had an influence. Um, you know, when parents are involved in their children's lives and they can tell that this one, um his grades are good, and yes, my grades were good. And even my principals, uh my teachers uh developed interest. Um and then around I think when we're doing stun at five, um, then we were asked, principal came and asked individually uh what we wanted to do, and then I said, no, I want to do I want to do medicine. Um, I want to become a doctor because we had uh uh Dr. Mashlango um as our GP, so he was the only doctor there. I'm like, no, and you know the the neighbors, teachers, nurses, they're no, you must become a doctor, you're doing well. Then it also gets into your head that you Dr.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Mashlango was the inspiration.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Yes, he's he's he's one of those because he was uh he he is he was our local GP.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Where is that now? Which area? Ikang L it's called Ikang Lal, yes. E-K-A-N-G-A-L-A. That's correct. So you Limpopo born and bred, huh? Born and bred? Yeah. No, do you listen? Do you listen to Limpong in Chauteng? In Ghauteng, yes. Do you listen to uh Le Compo? Yes, I only heard about that recently.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Yeah, you you'd be surprised. I'm more I'm more I'm more uh more uh Mascandi guy. Okay, alright, because you move to KZRN. No, even even being so no le compo le compo is for my 2000. I'm I'm more into Mascandi and the the the rest of the general. But when the music comes because my daughter is 10 and uh even the cousins when they play music, you know you you go with the with the with the rhythm.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

But now don't they all listen to piano and all that stuff? That's the new the new generation.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

It's it's it's mixing. Remember, remember Lukombo comes on the footsteps of uh piano and but now this uh the the kids that especially that goes to this uh multiracial schools, they also have this funny European and American uh artist that they listen to, and then you you you you learn from them as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Everything just gets mixed. Yeah. So how was uh Tuck's University of Pretoria's uh student life? It was tough. Yeah. Um the first nine You look traumatized the way you you responded, but No, you you you see like having flashbacks.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Yeah, no, it was it was it was it was tough. People don't understand, and people will some you know there are some experiences that um the next person will never um even have the privilege of experiencing. My first night at Tex I slept uh like a soldier. I did not have anything. They just showed me a room in uh in Buchanan.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Oh, that's that's the main campus, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:16

Yeah, yes, and then Buchanan uh residence said you sleep here, and then I think a week later, then I was moved to Kolakteis College. Yeah, and uh then we're only about four years into the new uh dispensation democracy. So Africaners were still very Afrikaner and the treatment was unbecoming. Yeah. But you you are there and you are determined not to fade.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, I went there in 2005 and uh six, and I remember thinking, sure, I don't want to be in those main campus residences, it looks hectic.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Yeah, no, it it it was it was hectic. Did you wear a uniform and things like that? Did we have a uniform? No, I think with us, um, okay, fortunately I could not afford, so I couldn't buy those uh bunchy jumpy things or that uniform of theirs. But on Sundays, they would make us no um during the they called us Frame Delenge. You will learn later what Fremdelen is. What does it mean? Strangers.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

So we were we were strangers who have to wear pink name tags. Because you were first year, yes. Now, for some interesting reason, um I think my posture and my demeanor meant these other white kids to see me as a senior. Okay. So whenever they see me, it's more minere, and I'm like, okay, let me take advantage. Then I say more trech. And um until one time we met, now the real seniors and well while this uh white kids, African kids were greeting more miniere, and now there was a a point of confusion on how I'm going to respond. And then this other guy saw me, I think they called him Brahm or something. Then he told them, no, but this guy is not a senior, this guy is in your same as you. Yeah. Because I I refuse to to put that that that pink thing.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

So I what were you causing trouble there from first year?

SPEAKER_03 13:22

I was not causing trouble, I avoided trouble. You know, to to avoid trouble, you just gotta do what the people tell you to do. No, that there are the things. You see, um I'm a black man. Right. Not that anybody can be mistaken me for it. So the the initiations and stuff, I went through that um when I was 16. Okay. And then coming here and being initiated by white kids, that colonial background and the apartheid that we just experienced. People, you know, oftentimes people think the apartheid was a long time ago or that the kids didn't know. No, we we felt it. There were times in my village where the hippos, you know, this uh I don't know what the the the cars are called, the big ones that look like uh pigs. Oh, the Caspers and the Caspers, yeah. When they come, they will trauma traumatize you because then your parents, your uncles, everybody runs away. Now you are here with the the offsprings of those people and they want you to do things that they want. I'm not I didn't come here for that. Okay. I came here to study and I'm doing medicine, so it's tough because it's in Africans and those uh generals from uh uh one military hospital, they don't want to compromise. Yeah. We are in uh we are 250 in class, and we uh we only have like 48 uh black folks, and amongst them is also the the the the Indians and I think we had one or two um colored guys. Now, in that 200, give uh give it take, you have both Africaners and whites, okay, English, right? But the the the funny thing that um people don't know is that and you know as you grow, every now and then be told um don't trust Africaners, but don't trust the uh white people even more, meaning the the the English.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Is that what they say when you're growing up, yeah?

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah, yes, yeah, because um, yes, in uh I remember in fourth year we were 20 in a group. It's uh five uh black folks and then the seven English and the remainder uh are Africaners. Now, when an African register register comes and he asks Angers of Africans, yeah. Like English or Africans. Thank you for translating. No, it's not because because because when you when you when you when you say it in English, off it's it's different from uh in Africans. So they want us to choose, um he is asking for us to choose in which um language he needs to give us the uh tutorial. Then you see the eight um Africaners plus the seven uh English who know too damn well that we don't understand Africans. Okay. It's difficult for us, we don't know English, yeah, even but it's the better devil for us. We were more exposed to it. Africans, even at school, we we passed and because we needed to do it. But when you do Africans in English, you are not on you are not doing Africans. So then those white or English kids will choose Africans in support of the Africaner kids. So instead of being inclusive, then you are left out. You have they they show you and they tell you that you are not one of us.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

And you think it was it was like a deliberate no the the there's history to this, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:33

And I think even this government is taking things for granted. The union building, what is the union building? What does it symbolize? What is that union? It's a union of the Africaners and the English after the Anglo-Bur War. Okay, it's not ours, it's not by us, and it's not for us. Now that's solidarity. That's solidarity, it's there in the DA. So when when these things happened, even then, um you you you get to realize some of us we we we caught things very quickly, but for those kids who had been to multiracial schools, they they thought they were at class higher than us. You know, the the the psychological caste system. Right. Interesting. Yeah, the the villagers and the townships, yeah. You are there as the entry level, and then you have then you have those who went through the multiracials, then you have the the Indian folks and the colored folks, and then you have that solidarity of the Europeans. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Fascinating. What is your um mother tongue then? What what did you speak right now? Uh Tsuana. Tsuana. Yes. And they used to teach you guys in Afrikaans, eh? Yeah. They used to teach you guys in Afrikaans at university. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

Um it was expensive, it was painful, it was it was cumbersome to summarize it. Yeah. Because you will have uh there is this uh prof from physiology and anatomy. They will put um an um on the slide there, um anatomical uh uh arm, and then it's written in the is labeled in in in Latin. Yeah and then he says um introduction um because this is uh written in uh Latin, I guess none of us understand Latin, but it's more common, and then and as you leave it, uh the majority rules, there's more, there's 200 uh Afrikaners and there are 48 of you, so on scanning African Sprat for four hours, then get to learn there's the there's Alamboch, there's uh and the what antibrachi, you know, such things for four hours, and you can't leave because that is the head of the first year um class in general. So you have to sit there, have your time wasted. You also now have to go and buy, you know, the the the African are saveri, they say biatroats are very proud, yeah, and therefore they also produce their own books. They will go and translate um English books into Africans and then sell you those African books as if they have something uh special. But what they had done, because they you know the African children from grade one, just like the English children from grade one until university, until they do PhD, they don't have the struggle of having to learn any other language. So they translated the English books and put it in context for them and for their children so that they can be easily spoon-fed.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

So what did you guys do? They used to just hip on back to reason.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

No, you have to buy you have to buy two two textbooks because when you're tired with the he's like hey, the exams in three days, then you have to go and uh read the English textbook.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

And you could write in English or in Afrikaans if you wanted. Did you have a choice or was it all English? English English was there. No, they they they they they had they did everything in Afrikaans. Oh, so they wrote in Afrikaans also. Everything. If ever I'm trying to think if that if that happened in when I was there, probably. All I remember from see, I think it may be over time, because you you started in 99 and you would have finished off around 2004. 2004. Four. Okay. So I had just started in 2006. By then, things were getting a little m more progressive, but I still remember distinctly where we would sit in class in dental school. And the one half, there was a it was a not even an imagined divide. Like where the staircase is would divide the two halves of the lecture hall, and the one half would be Afrikaans speaking, and the other half would be English speaking. So that would be blacks, Indians, coloured, and English white speaking people on the one side, and the other side was very Afrikaans. But my recollection is that people wanted to learn in English because it could take you internationally. Whereas if you just limited yourself to Afrikaans, you were restricting yourself to this country. So then it was slightly different in your time, eh?

SPEAKER_03 22:37

No, with yeah, like I'm saying, with us there was zero transformation. Um and we faced hardcore.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

And were there any allies? Throughout this six-year allies from where? I d I don't know, that's the thing. So what was it all just white Africans, lecturers, everything?

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Yes, and the the unfortunate part is that at the time the the dean was uh Professor Tani Maribel. Okay. And after I think even after him, somebody asked, no, before there was this uh Deion Duplessis, Prophet uh Dion Duplessis, and but his term ended while we're still there, and then he was replaced by uh Professor Mariba. Okay. And few uh lecturers, um black professors from uh Medunsa also came in, but there was no it appeared as if there was no transformative agenda because they had no influence or they did not influence. Um one of those is the I think the anesthesiologist, um who is now I think is still in HPCSA. Um when we had morning meetings where there is an intake or the water round, and in the mornings, you will have the Africaners speak in Africans, and for you it's like no, everything is on mute, and then he speaks, he conducts the meeting in English, and then there is this other old Africaner um professor, and then you you don't get to gain anything, and anesthesiologists like phys uh pharmacology, if for us it was critical, and it was very important for us to grasp what is what is happening because once you switch on or off that anesthetic machine, the person's life depends on you. Now, when you are in an academic uh center where they deliberately deprive you of that information or knowledge, then you know that but this these are these are not good people.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

So you're not um did you not think I should have gone to Vitz or should have gone to Medwinza or something? Well, they're never those kind of thoughts. Hey, black don't crack.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

I stay, you stay the course. Once you pass your first year and a second year, all that you see is that uh graduation stance, and whoever threatens your peace to that, um if we were at war, I'd say you'd put them down, but we we had to put in the work.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

But that is so sad, man. Like you you are facing a battle every day where it should be the opposite. It should be like a nurturing environment where people are wanting you to learn.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

Yeah, no, they they did not. They did not.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Did you remember possibly? I w I mean I'm I would have I would expect at least a failure one or two years because of that.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

Again, again, when you when you come from where I come from, failure was not an option. Right. Failure wasn't was no was never an option. And because I think in my second year I got a government buzzary. Okay. And my my father's uh work provided a buzzer, but it was only for tuition. Okay. So the other difference, um, I think my first year I got uh NSFAS, then it was called TEFSA. And but in my second year, then I got the buzzery and I was able to pay my TEFSA in in the very second year from the the the surplus or the remainder of the of the buzzer. And then going forward, then the what is important is that you don't want to lose this opportunity because if you fail, then they take away your buzzery, and then you need to walk on your own. This is not Liverpool. You will work on your own and then come and catch up. So the if failing was not an option because I left my siblings and my mother at home, and I need even in my community, you you need to go back and uh say to them what I went to collect, uh I've got and this is it. Because then you were a model, a role model at school and high school, even while we are at the university, then the teachers keep telling them, Hey, there was a guy here from uh from here and he's now studying medicine. So watch the space, be like that guy and all that. Now that pressure is is precious on the one hand, and on the other hand, it's a it's it's it's a burden, but the burden that you are willing to carry to say I I cannot fail. That's fascinating. And I I I remember the first year, the first semester, uh, first semester was fire, first semester was lead. Yeah, chemistry, chemistry and all that stuff, chemistry and uh physics and bio and uh psychology. We had uh technical psychology and then community psychology and uh oh philosophy. Oh yes, yes. We have that prof Antonette speaking for two hours.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

You don't know where what is this guy saying? Did you guys have medical terminology also MTL? Yes, the the Latin stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

Yes, the that prof is it uh Kritzinger. Oh yeah yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Yeah I'm glad you can remember. I can't remember any of this stuff. Yeah, I tried.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

No, because he was also our our house father at uh at at Ipo. Oh, oh, of course, Kritzinger, Dr. Kritzinger. Yeah, he was a nice guy in joining. Nice guy. So yeah, we did we did we did all that. And the that first semester was the toughest because now you have to adjust to new ways of hearing English the whole day and staying in a residence where they want to force you to do things that you are not there for, that you are not even ready. And then there is then the issue of the the financing of your academics, and they admin they they don't know you, so they will treat you whichever way.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

I find it fascinating. You mentioned this thing about getting used to listening to English the whole day. So uh when you're growing up, what was what was spoken all the time? Was it Tsuana? No, we're from uh from a township. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

We Debele, Isizulu, Swati, Kosa, Tsuana, and the Uh, did you ever speak English? Like Shanghai, Venda?

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Who speak English, yeah? To who? For we never think about this, eh? It's amazing, huh?

SPEAKER_03 29:30

No, yes. Or you know, the the interesting part is that um our school had English and African teachers. Yeah. So that that was the only time. Like, you know, that 30 minutes um class, or we call it period. Uh, but now once you do medicine, then it means something else. So it was a 30-minute class or one hour to Africans and then, or you do meds, because our meds teacher was English, and then um no, if she was Africans, the English, it's uh English, and physics somewhere it was uh the English and yeah. Yeah, look at I mean look at those are the only times where you have to like uh break your tongue and then go go home.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Yeah, but now that I think of it, I'm just exposing my ignorance because I mean that's probably the case for most people in the country, right? English is spoken in very few s you know centers as a first language, right, in the country. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

Yeah. English English English is for us as as as Africans or as South Africans, let me be more specific, is not even a second language. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a necessity. It's like when you want to court a girl and you know that she does not understand your language, then you have to speak that language. But other than that, you revert to one of the you either speak Sisulu, Cinderella, Tsuana, Spedi, and you know, in Pretoria they've got their own lingo, Spittoria, and all that. Yeah. So English was it was it was not important. And that is why even here, sometimes I'm like, you know, at work, and I at some point I was uh when I was a manager, um, then we're sitting there, like eight uh members of executive, and seven or six are Zulu speaking. I can speak Isizulu. And then there's only one person who does not speak Isizulu. And then once we start uh the meeting, then the CEO will say, no, please let's speak in English to accommodate this one. Then I will raise an issue to say, but we are the majority. The case at N is got 80% of Zulu people. So Isisul is supposed to be the first language. I don't understand why you guys are advocating for a language of the minority to overrule what is democratically.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Yeah. How funny is that though, right? Because when you were in campus, it was the other way around.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

Yeah, no, they they you see they they implemented, but and I understood that when they say majority, then let let it rule. But it's a teaching institution. But here, the 80% or 90% of recipients of public service are Zulu speakers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, why are you even writing or publishing documents in in English because you are you are continuing this prejudice and the assumption that black people must learn other uh English in order for them to excel. But after graduating, I never had to speak English with uh patients. That's fascinating, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. The only time I think in Far Eastern uh or even in uh in South Coast, it was here and there when you have uh one Indian uh patient or two white folks very old who cannot afford medical aid. But the core, at the core, siakulum. So why why why then when we are having a meeting, we have now to change, now we have like um a room full of black people speaking English to accommodate the one guy. No, and and I've always said this when you speak any of the African languages and you are in a room with ten Afrikaners, yeah, they're going to prat all the way. And I I I think when you do that with even with the English, they'll do that. With the French, they will speak. You need to. And I'm like, no, but why do we always have to be the ones to who are supposed to be um flexible? I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't accept that. I think we we demean ourselves more than any other thing, especially in provinces where the majority language is known. Eastern Cape is close. It doesn't matter whether they differ in terms of the the locality or the Induna or the Incos, but it's close, it's close. When you come to KZ and Isizul, Isizul, whether it's from Natal or it's from uh the northern, it's Isizul.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

When you go to Northwest, it's Swan. But we get into a meeting and they said English. Why English? What is so important about English?

SPEAKER_00 34:32

And you made a good point. Also, the funny thing is if most of your patients are going to be not speaking English. No, it's your people. You need to, but you need to also be able to communicate with your patients, right, in a language that they understand. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

And that is why, you know, when I did um some of my work in the inland, and then you find uh Indian kids, or let me call not call them kids because they are adults, okay, junior doctors, or you have uh white uh junior doctors, and then when they conduct their clinical work, they expect the patient to speak their language. I'm like, no, why why why why is this the case? Because you are the service provider, this is the client. Why is it that they did not teach you the language of the of of the client? You cannot expect the client to now change in order to suit you. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

But it's it's it's it's it's still happy. And the funny thing is, like a lot of us are not even ashamed or embarrassed that we can't speak the local language, you know what I mean? Yeah, we should ban you. Yeah. I mean, I'm doing Zulu and duolingo, I'm learning trying to learn Zulu and Duolingo. Um but you'll find more a lot of South Africans will will be quick to go and learn French and Spanish and all these things to travel, but we are not as enthusiastic about learning local languages.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

Yes, because that that that is ingrained in people's minds that black people are inferior and therefore they must always come up. You know, when I jokingly said there is this cast hierarchy, like you always have to climb a ladder for us to be recognized. Even when we are recognized, there's still people that undermine you. It's uh it's it's it's not a a very nice thing. Yeah. But it also takes the political will to change things. And you know, politics is like uh it's not even a beauty contest because most of them are not pretty. But it's a it's a popularity contest more than brains.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

But you know what the beautiful thing is that soon there's gonna be no excuse to not be able to communicate with a patient in their own language with AI. It's amazing. Like you will be able to without any excuse. Like I can just speak into something, it'll automatically just happen almost on the fly. I mean, Apple are already doing that now, with but obviously they're starting with a very few languages, but you can get these the new ear pods.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Where it's called live translate, and you speak to a person, they will have it on also, and the AI automatically translates it as you're speaking. So now it's like we are in the at the United Nations Assembly. Exactly, but you've got it in your pocket. So there will soon be no excuse. I remember when I was doing comps, it probably wasn't even comserve. It was probably first or second year into being on permanently. There would be this Chinese patient that would come there once in a while. He couldn't speak English or anything. But even then, this was 2011, 12, 13, around there, I would use Google Translate and the guy would get fascinated and he would want to only see me, even though I was a junior doctor there, because I could connect with him. Because you you went an extra mile. Yeah, well, you see, I mean, not because I went the extra mile, but because I think he could just communicate with me. He could understand what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 37:47

Please don't play that. No, no, seriously, because I'm saying um not all your colleagues were able to creatively find that space to connect. And you were then said you then you became the go-to guy for that.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Yes. Yeah, but then also the the more important thing is that the patient can understand what you say exactly. You know, and you were making the point earlier, you know, why must they learn what you can understand? You should learn the other way around. Isn't KZN doing something like that? I saw it on TikTok recently where there's like you in first you have to pass Zulu or something like that in order to get any degree now. So there's baby steps or something happening. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

No, I think that um I've I've not I've not seen it. All that I know is that the I think most of the universities, they intro especially the in the health sciences, they're introducing the the language of that area. But the intensity, I guess it's it's something else.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Yeah, baby steps, it's like 30 years into demo democracy and we're still at that baby steps phase. Okay, but it'll happen. Uh I think things will change slowly and then suddenly it will happen fast. But we'll see. We'll be around to see it happen. I think. I believe. Because people are actually changing learning now. I mean honestly, a lot of it comes from ignorance. Uh as you said, a lot of it is ingrained in people growing up. Like that's superior, this is inferior. I think slowly the Machu Thousands and their kids will be able to.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

I like I like those ones. They they don't care a damn and they don't carry the the parents' burden. They just do their their own thing. And they I think they're more social and they mingle easier. But I guess it's because some of us we're still carrying the the pains of the past. When you relate to something you need first to go to your history.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

You're saying carrying the pains of the past, right? I never really experienced it until I started working in Comsa. Because I was I'm coming from a place where everybody spoke English around me, and I assumed that you know you must know my language. Working in Standerton Hospital, it was all white lady sitting on a chair in the dental chair. I walk in and she turns at me and she says, Doctor, I'm so glad uh I'm getting an Indian uh doctor, not a black doctor. Right? She tells me this straight, thinking like I must take it as a compliment or something, right? And I just got super pissed off with her. And I just said, Well, sorry, I'm a black doctor, and I walked out and I left. I just left her. And I've I've told a story at a couple of presentations I give to medical and dental students, and I asked them the question whether what I did was ethically correct or not. And it's interesting to see, you know, there's obviously two views here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um will say, yeah, it's good, you did the right thing. Others will say, no, no, you should have treated that patient. And the funny thing, then we get into this debate where where I will justify my actions. I'll say, no, look, it wasn't an emergency. So uh and it was like verbal abuse to me. And also, I knew that one of my white colleagues would eventually see this patient and treat her and give her the denture she needed. But that was the first time I experienced what you're talking about, and uh, you know, where you are seen as other and inferior and you know, all that kind of thing. And it can really affect you, eh?

SPEAKER_03 41:16

No, it it it it does. Like in like like we say, in in reality, um when you look at how the police or the community control police, whatever they they call them, they act when they are confronted with uh black uh protesters versus how they act when they're confronted with white protesters. It's different. You really have a situation where they use their their guns on the on the on the white protesters, but they're very quick to use it on their own. So that that that that mentality it it it becomes quite clear.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Yeah, even in 2025, it's still we've still got a long way to go. Did you have any good experiences in medical school, man? How was anything like positive?

SPEAKER_03 42:15

Um yeah, um one thing that was positive, uh say I think that uh Professor Khei was for me um the the the highlight, the the the good part. And even the Professor Lindic. Okay, um, he was the he was chairman of the of the academic for for the longest time. His obstetrician, right? Yes. And um because even in my final year, he I was working in his firm, and then we we discussed this thing. I played I played soccer. I played soccer from my first year to the even final year, I think I was left solo with the final year guy who still goes to to play because for me, fitness and uh to clear my mind, that was the go-to place. Um was very important. Um it was uh it was good. And uh Yeah, well done to you.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

I mean anatomy didn't take you out in the second year.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

No, in fact, we fought. We fought. We I went I went to this uh lecture because I remember, you know, when we're doing the spot test, what do they call it? Yeah, yeah. Where you could identify things, yeah. That one I'll sit and see it. We'll score way above the the 70s, and then when it comes to now the English and the expressions, then find that the marks are low, and then we had to negotiate getting that 60% with that guy, and he refused. I was pissed, but I'm like, I'm still going to to to do it. No, well done. So it was uh living at Hippo was uh was quite nice. You you make friends. Temporarily and their friends that are for life, even though you don't speak.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

But being there was uh for me the Yeah, Hippo is a senior race, right? It doesn't feel like a race. It's like more like a you've got your own kitchen, your own bathroom, everything. Yes, yes, the privacy and all that. No, it's it's it's it's it's quite nice. Did you do like house comm stuff for your hacker and all those types of things?

SPEAKER_03 44:24

You know, um I think it was in 2000. Yes, in 2000, because I got there. Um there was a fight in uh 1999, like I told you, with those guys who wanted us to wear ninths. Yeah, and then um I had to be moved. I spoke again with the the person who was uh a mentor, and then he discussed my case with uh Professor But not Prof.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Lombard was the mentor.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

No, Danny.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Do you remember Danny Lombard?

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Yes, no, I know that. I know I know I know prof uh prof Lombard. No, then then we were dealing directly. I think uh Lombard came later. We were dealing, we were dealing with uh Prof. Okay. So they arranged for me to move to to Hippo. That was a good move. Yeah, then it was a good move, and then the following year then we conversed for the position of the sports hugger. Then I got that, and then when we go went for the project, because you know they always give you money for project, then I swayed the the committee for us to spend the money on uh buying sports gears. Um, you know the Yasir, Yasir's uh brother-in-law. Okay. Um Priestley. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Then we got them uh with their volleyball kit, we got the netball kit, we got uh soccer kit. Oh, you did positive things from the from from that. Yeah, I think the the last one they had was ugly and old. So we we did that that year was uh it was a it was a positive change.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Yeah, I'm glad because if it it's a big contrast to my yeah, because I d they made me the social hacker. And I spent all the money on one party. So uh yeah, I I really uh didn't I abuse that position unfortunately, but well they got what they voted for. They got what they voted.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

Basically, yeah, yeah, no, that uh that was uh that was nice, like me solving problems here and there, but it was uh it was it was quite nice being at uh at HIPAA. And the fact that you know the the gym. We had the gym there at uh medical campus. Yes, and we me I there I had the this friend we were we were partnering, so we'll run from Hippo all the way to campus, then finish, then come back, then go to the basement, you know, the TV room and all that.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

So it does uh funny enough, you're not the first uh House Hippocrates sports hacker on the show. You know this? Um Capus Hofamodimo, he's a surgeon. I had him on a uh one of the first few episodes. He was also the sports hacker in my year. Him and I were very close friends. He even gave a speech at my wedding. Um yeah, he was a sports hacker. Yeah, yeah. I don't remember him doing too much, but anyway. I don't want it Yeah, he's not here to defend himself, so leave that. So what happens after campus? You then do internship two years. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 47:23

No. Um at the time, uh internship was one year. Okay. Um remember the I think for 50 years internship was one year. Okay. And they change to two years came um maybe a year after we we we left. Oh because there was a time where your crew, um, I think the yes, the Malifa Fox crew, they went to protest at HPCSA. Okay. Um I guess the the the the two years. So I went to Mbumalanga to do my one year um in Chongwe. Okay. And there we also, you know, when we faced with uh racist, then we we we battled out, then uh came out safe, then I went to do ComServe, then we got there, it was the four uh black folks, black guys, and then four Cuban uh guys, seniors. So there was just Where was this to Robert? Robert is 30 kilometers from my village. It was like I was I went I was sent back home basically. And then um So there was a lot of testosterone. Yeah, and uh so it's four, yeah, it's four four Cuban guys and then four Comsev South Africans and then um I think at some point they they test they they they would test us, send us to theater alone, and with the confidence we will just go there and go in, go out, and everything is done. But then somewhere along the way, then you you you you find, remember there was time in June where there was a confrontation between myself and the this guy was uh orthopedic uh trauma surgeon um from Cuba. The medical manager was uh from Cuba as well. And then I'm on call, he's the second on call, is my senior. And uh there is this person who comes in. Um I think he was uh had a tractor accident and then with the committed fracture of the foot. Now, the principles that you are taught uh at take is because they said we are teaching you the principles, the rest you'll have to apply your discretion. So the principle is that a debridement, you of that nature, open fracture, you need to take to theater. So now I'm attending to people in casualties, and then I have this one. So I call this guy and say, Hey, Doc, I have this situation and this person needs to be debrided in theater. And then he says to me, No, you can do it in uh in casualties, it's fine. I'm like, um, I cannot betray the the teachings of my my folks because they told us that our people don't know the difference, but it's us who must advocate for them. So I'm sorry, I'm not going to do what you are asking for. Then he started throwing profanities, and then I I lost it on the phone as well. I'm like, before you do what you're saying you're going to do to me, I'll ship you back to Cuba. Yeah. Within five minutes, yeah, that guy was there. And then for you or for the patient? For me, or for me, obviously. But by that time, I I had resolved that if he lays his hands on me, I uh we are in the hospital, so there's no need to call ambulance, but things are going to things are going to happen. Gosh. So he came and then he said, come. Then we went into an x-ray and he went in. Then I stood by the door and closed and switched combat mode. Yeah. Then I thought, I think he gauged that hey, I might uh have proposed, but I might not win. Yeah, yeah. So we spoke and then he took the patient, he did the patient there, but I told him, I'm not, I'm not going to come. These are my people. These are my people, and there is no way I'm going to deliberately and intentionally compromise their health. So that was uh concept. Then from there I I came to KZN. To do what? Um HIV. Right? Yeah. I started doing HIV in 2007 until 2011. But is what is that? Like what are you what are you doing? HIV medicine. Um there was an NG there's an NGO that uh recruited me um around October towards the end of my uh my ComSav because I I called the the province that sponsored my my bazary and I asked them where am I supposed to go? And because around that time I think there was this uh cross-border um exchanges. Okay. All those areas that were on the border between Bumalanga or Limpopo or KZ and in Eastern Cape, there was a confusion as to what's going to happen now to the institutions and especially with regard to the the Bazaro obligations. So when they kept quiet, and then I told them, okay, fine, since you guys don't know where I'm supposed to be, let me go find myself a job. So I got my job from uh at uh an NGO. Then they they sent me to stuff was post uh here in KZN. Then I spent, I think I spent a year there. Then I went to Stenga. Um yes, I got a promotional promotional post uh to be a principal uh medical officer in HIV as well. In Stenga. Yeah, 2008. And we we did I stayed there just for six months. You know, we're getting the the clinics and the CHCs uh ready for rollout because around that time, 2006, uh I think 2006 and 2010, people died. Um whereas people died a lot between 2000 and 2006. From 2006 and 2010, people now were dying from the HIV drugs, and this is one reality that nobody wants to talk about. People just uh point paint a picture as if this uh HIV drugs were Panache. They were they were not. The the DDIs, the D4Ts, the Neverapines, the Favirens, and those back trims, people developed anaphylactic uh reactions, people people literally died. Their lungs, their kidneys, their livers reacted and uh people died during that period. But yeah, um I think it was my my contribution in that in that field.

SPEAKER_00 54:28

Okay. But we we we went ahead too quickly because I forgot to ask you. When you finish med school, obviously then you go into internship, and that's I'm assuming that's the first time you start earning money. Was that the first time you were you were getting paid in your life? Um you're doing other jobs on the side?

SPEAKER_03 54:47

No, I've never I had never held a job, but uh my buzzary was uh I I organized things in such a way that I was getting enough money through my buzzary. Okay. But yeah, that was my first way.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

You come again. Was it so it was your first paycheck, like? Yes. And was it pre-OSD or post-OSD? Was it good money or pre-OSD?

SPEAKER_03 55:10

Yeah, my first uh my first salary, I went home and bought my mother a stove.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

I was gonna ask you, what okay, that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

Yeah, um it was just uh because I started working on the 15th of December. Was it 15th? Yeah, I think 15th, no, yeah, first this 1st of December or 15th, because we took an oath on the 24th, on the 25th of November 2004. And then from there we were released in November. And then December you start working. December, yeah, we get the no the you know the beauty of um text of next is that by the time the last 18 months of the training you do it's called student internship, but it is basically internship. Oh yeah. Because we used to see guys who graduated or the interns, the actual interns from uh UCT and Vets, they they they they were there bleeding people to almost death. Like, what are these guys doing? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

So they used to tell us. Look at these tax, these arrogant tax guys.

SPEAKER_03 56:22

No, it's no, it was not now, now it was practical. Yeah, yeah. Because we say no, and then when they're consoling us, like, no, look, you can know everything the textbook, but here's the patient, it's time for resource, then you need to call a tax. So you think the tax students were the most equipped? Or is it they they they beg then. I I'm not sure about now, um, because there they've been there've been changes. But then you you could take uh a tax student to anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

And how was it like um your first paycheck? Were was it a special thing or not really? You were getting money anyway from the birthday.

SPEAKER_03 57:00

Yeah, for me, it it it it it it didn't mean much except for the fact that now I will be able to do things for my family. Yes. I need I needed to go home, and then for that Christmas, my mother must get uh the stove and then she'll pick us uh cookies, and my father is a chef, so they will start using that stove, and on Christmas they lay the big table. That's why I've got uh big dining table.

SPEAKER_00 57:27

So you're the first doctor in the family, or yes. Sure. So a lot of people must be collecting from you.

SPEAKER_03 57:37

No, the one thing that I I I did, I think when we sat with my parents, I said I I know my responsibilities, don't worry about uh many things. My first priority is I need to get to make sure that my siblings get the the support in terms of schooling. My father's buzzary covers tuition, but tuition is not life. It's it's it's the conditions at at school that will determine how how good you do. So um I think for the five, six years I need I rented uh an apartment for for them and for Lasborn, Lasbourne was in uh UJ, so I had to pay that because that it was it was later. So for me that was important and you try to improve things here and there. And the first year, the whole first year, excuse me, um, I was a pedestrian. Luckily, uh there was a a friend as a dentist, you know, as you guys you come through all the way to Comseve, you don't have to do the intention and again. So you had a car and then we drive around um month end to go and at least thank ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Yeah. So you didn't do the you didn't party much as a student, eh? Or did you?

SPEAKER_03 59:00

I no. Yeah, no. I even even even as a as a hacker. Yeah. Even as a hacker, remember there was this uh tour, the bus tour where you go to all the those uh night labs. Yes, yes, and uh I I was heavily religious. I'm a very religious person. Okay, so I told them, um, and at my church, um on Saturday night, we normally do a virgin, we pray, we go to church.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

Are you seven-day Adventist?

SPEAKER_03 59:36

No. Yeah, I I was born in the family, um uh my father and my mother were ZCC. Okay, and that's how they indoctrinated us. So, you know, you know then when these guys said they used to call me snipes because we were of the exercising and stuff, so and said, hey snipes, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

I'm like, Oh like Wesley Snipes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:56

Yeah, I said, no, I I can't join you because my brothers at home are praying now. I cannot be found in beer halls well. My brothers are praying and also praying for me to do well.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:08

So Oh, it kept you out of trouble. Religion kept you out of trouble.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:11

You guys, you guys can go. That's how you passed every year. You see? No, the yes, you see, when it comes to when it comes to school, like I said, there was no room for failure. There was no there was just no room for failure. Um, you know, you'll run around from January until June. Um there's always uh fresh house and you always want to try and get yourself a girlfriend and play sports and all that. And if if by June you are not girlfriending, then you say, okay, now switch off. Let's secure the buzzer. Yeah. Then you do that for six years, then you're good.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

Yeah, six years. Six years is a long time and it's hard work.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:51

So it's it's uh it's it was uh So what happens after Stenga? Then you No, after Stenga, I then because when 2008. When yes, when you parted with the the NGO, it was not in the good spirit. But then I went to af even after I then went to there to see the MD because they said at the time he was not around. So I went there um to see uh the the MD and we sat down uh mid-appointment and then I think he was told that hey, there's this uh young guy that we sent to KZ and we had to fire him for one thing, but they couldn't fire him fire me because I understood the implications and I knew that you you can't send a lawyer to come and manage me. He does not know the the the the the the terrain of what I'm dealing with. So when we me and him were not understanding each other. I think on the day that they thought they were going to fire me, I just gave them the resignation letter and then the the hospital then employed me. Okay, so it kept me clean. Subsequent month, uh then I went because they said the MDs back. Right. As I enter the the office, then he's he's a bit obscene. He's a nice guy, but his language is not uh for uh people under the age of 18. Then he he says he says, I can tell from the way you walk in that you are full of shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

Gosh, yeah, yeah. And did he read your body language correctly or not? Come again? Did he read your body language correctly or was that a misread?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:35

No, I I think I I I I I came in like uh like gangster and you know the American gangsters in long jackets and all that. It was it was it was it was no, it was it was we it was winter, and you know that red flag stuff stuff was posed. Okay. Uh cocks that it's cold. Then I took a flight, I went there, and then we said, I told him, look, this is what transpired. Then he said, but why didn't you call me? I said, I I tried, but I was told that you are not available. Then at the end of the day, we shook hands, said, no, look, if you need a job again, just let me know and I'll make things happen. This this should not have happened. That's good. Because yeah, the the the dispute with uh with those people was I was contracted to provide HIV services to the hospital's clinic and the surrounding clinics. Now it transpires that while I'm doing that, because some of the clinics are quite far, you know, you will drive 104 kilometers until you single single trip. So until you can no longer have network and keep on asking myself, what happens if I get stuck? Is this what I want for my life? You know, I left uh Pretoria, I left home, and then I'm in the middle of nowhere going to the end of the world or something. Now, when the staff or the hospital runs short of doctors, they then want this, they speak to these guys to say, can he come and start attending to the patients in the world? Then I said it's not in my contract, and when it's not in my contract, I'm not going to do it because I don't get paid for. And then secondly, in terms of their risk, it elevates the risk because now when you get into the ward, there are also psychiatric patients there, and there are patients whose illnesses have little or nothing to do with the HIV services. So now this is uh a change of contract terms, and um until it's it's put in writing, it's not favorable for me. And mind you, I just come from ComSav, which means everything HIV I have to teach myself. It was the time where they were initially the there was this uh this HIV drug called stavodine. Okay, the dose was the dose was 40 milligrams. There was a Didanosin, that one they had to to take off because people were dying. The stavidine also people were dying, but then they reduced the the dose. But the WHO released the the document in October, November 2006. So by the time I went for interviews, I was already reading that. So when I got to that place, I noticed I said, you know what, people are already struggling. Government has not yet published the reduction of the dose, but what I'm Going to do. I'm going to start because it's uh I'm not going to wait for government while I see people dying. So I started reducing and then people started speaking and even checking whether I'm a real doctor and all that. Like, hey, this is none of my business. I continued with my with my work. Six months later, then the government releases the updated the policy to say that okay. I'm ahead of time, so we we continue. So after Stenga, um there was an interview, the the same NGO, and it took me back home. And that for me it was also a blessing um because it coincided with the economic depression.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:49

Oh yeah, 2008 around that.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:51

Yes, yeah, yes, because and I had just bought the property at Stenga. Big mistake that I had to pay for then for almost uh nine years. Yeah. So I couldn't I couldn't enjoy that house and the work as well. It was not uh uh by that time Stenga was not classified under the rural note, so you had um people coming and leaving. Some people never even stayed a week. So me staying for six months, it was uh it was a gift. Yeah. But the the situation was dire. So I I went back home. Um the the pay was good. I stayed there. Um I was stationed in uh Bumalanga, Kwamshanga. Oh yeah. 2008 until 2010. Then 2010 we were put into a program at uh Steve Biko Academic um infectious disease. So we worked with the late uh Professor Stollz. Okay. Yeah, so then we were seeing the patients or in the entire uh Steve Biko Academic who had anything to do with TNB and HIV, and then his uh infectious uh patients as well. We go to ICU, high CAD consults. Um what we did not do was PEEDS because he had said his license does not extend to pediatrics because he did internal medicine and then he subspecialized then in uh infectious diseases. I was uh quite a good guy and uh enjoyed my stay there.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:27

What happens next then?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:29

Then um in early yeah, January 2011, then Ugu South Coast Yes, they advertise a post for a medical manager. They want to open yeah, they had just did they had they built yes, they had just built a CHC. Okay. So they wanted a community health center. Yes, community, yeah. So they want uh a medical manager. And then, you know, this was 2011. Then I just decided, you know what? Let me email my CV.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:12

Yeah. You make it sound like you were just taking a chance. Were you you think you were just taking a chance or what?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:17

Yeah, it was um like no, let me, let me, let me put my my name on. Yeah. Then the next thing they they called me. I went for interviews, and then I think in March, then they told me I've got the job. Yeah. And I, okay, this is this is quite interesting. Now it's uh it's another level.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:35

Okay. Does it come with like a big salary increase and things like that? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:39

Um, because even at the time I had moved to to Plutore, so most of the packs or the other things that I was able to do while I was in Com Shank, they I was not able to do. So I decided, no, let me let me move. So I moved to KZN. Then there I think that's where I started learning now the real management, the hardcore management, because when you get there, there are no chairs, there are no tables, there is no stuff, and there are services that you need to receive from Murchison to the CHC. There are services that you need to take from Port Chapstan Regional to the CHC, and you need to now go visit all the C the clinics that uh pour into the CHC, and you need to get the radiography services registered, you need to get the pharmacy registered, and so you were like doing a startup business. From scratch. From scratch. It was uh it was it was it was uh quite an experience. Yeah, and it was uh for me, it was uh a very nice experience. Yeah. And no, it was not without challenges, but um I think when I when I left, I was happy that um I'm handing over uh an institution that could run on its own. Because within seven months of opening that uh institution, we now had to start uh 24 hour services. Oh and that means now people have to be on core, and that was a that was a big deal. So you don't get to do any clinical work in that post at all. Yes. Why? Um there was a point where I had to get in the back of an ambulance because the you know with with with government they they'll bring people who did uh BLS, yeah, and then you have a critical uh child or a critical patient, then like you know what, if if this is the situation, then I need to get in so that we can get to the regional. And at some point, while we waited, I think there was this baby, this child who was knocked off by a car, and I was I was working. So I had to do both clinical and do admin. Now, while I was doing the the research, I saw the baby's uh level of consciousness dropping and the ambulance is not uh forthcoming. So I decided and the the the grandmother was there, then I told the staff, you know what, I'm gonna take this baby into my car and get the the baby to to to what uh potato regional because it's either that or the baby's going to die here and I cannot live with that. So I drove, but somewhere along the way, then the I met the the ambulance guys, then I flagged them, they stopped and they took the baby. And then three months later the one of the guys came and they said to me, Hey, see Abomato, you know that child that you gave to us, then we took to the original, was actually flown into in course, and then they had to That's Albert Lutul, huh? Yes, they had to operate and uh take out the kidney because the child was bleeding and one of the kidneys had uh crashed.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

Yeah, but that that child you probably saved the child's life.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:18

No, the the that that child was going to was was going to die there.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:21

Like So you were doing clinical and not just basic admin, like starting up a a center.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:26

Yeah, and uh you receive you see the the the other challenge with the peripheral institutions that you get you get given community service doctors and they are just like we said before we started these things, it's a it's a spectrum. Yeah. You have people who work, you have people who've been dodging since medical school, they were dodging, even now they dodge, and then there are those who are keen but don't have the know-how. So if the conserves are on call, it means I'm also on call. And it takes a toll because if somebody calls you at 12, you leave about uh 15 to 20 kilometers because I lived in my gate, and then the CHC is on the other side, and going there is also sort of a maze.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:16

But there's a that's a lot of responsibility. I can't imagine that the salary pays compensates you fairly for all of those responsibilities. Um did it.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:23

Growing up um in in public service, I've I've always said um they will never pay you. Or anyway, there is no employer. As long as you are employed, you will never get paid what your skill is worth. But in public service, for me, I'd say I will always absorb government because I am working for my people. And if I can get one thank you per year, that's more than enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:58

Sure. Well, that's a positive way of looking at it.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:00

That's that's that's more than enough because what is it that you you you expect? This is the government, you know where you come from, and you know that the majority of our people still live in rurals, they are still disadvantaged, and those are the people who need the service the most. And if you can acquire a skill to go and impart, then so be it.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:22

So that's a really good attitude to have. I guess that's what will keep you going, because if you didn't have that kind of attitude, you'd think, well, this baby, why must I take the baby in the car, my car?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:33

Yeah, because you the baby will just uh perish there.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:36

And there are people who just leave the baby, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:38

No, yes. There are people there are people who allow people to die in academic institutions.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:45

Well, and again, even in pri private institutions everywhere. I don't want to talk about those. Yeah, yeah. That's okay, so that's 2011-12. 1213. Then how do you end up at the HPCSA? Is that the next step?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:00

No, uh 1213 I went I went back home again. Uh I went to Far East, uh Far East because um What's that Tambo uh Tambo Memorial or? No, Far Eastern is in Springs.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

Tambo Memorial is in Boxbeck. Oh, okay. So I spent two years there. How many places did you live in your life in this country? Can you think of it? Like genuinely speaking.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:22

Okay. If I have to speak about places, yeah, it's easy with hospitals. I think I've worked in more than 12 hospitals now. I'm working, I've worked in uh this is a second morning. So I I'm a nomad. Sure. I mean I'm a nomad in a in a in a more civilized society, which is kind of difficult for you to move. Tactic, eh?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:46

You've lived in you've worked in 12 different places. 14 different places. Yeah. Okay, so take us then. So you went back to far to the far east.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:54

To far east rent, and then two years later, um before my baby uh was born, I then had to move closer to the mother. The mother's in Pretoria. Okay. Then I realized um she can move. She's not as mobile, um I'm mobile, so I moved um to Pretoria. And then 2016 I finished uh my LLB.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:17

Well, how do you just in the middle of all of this stuff you decide to do an LLB? Where does this come from?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:22

Yes, I think uh I like I said, the the foundation of being becoming a doctor was informed by my grades. Okay. At uh the age of 18, 17, 18, I knew that um I'm a lawyer.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:42

Yeah. How do you know this? What you were you fighting with people, arguing? No. Because you know they get those people say, hey, yeah, you like to argue, you should become a lawyer.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:52

No, I I yeah, you know those, and then the person cannot reason, but they like arguing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. How do you know? They no, I I I I did debate, but also when it comes to the the the the arguing and you know the politics and the the state and uh being an advocate, you know, an advocacy or an activist. Um I I said to myself, this is where I know I will flourish. Yeah, but I need to decide now based on my state of uh economic uh my the economic state in my family.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to make money also. You need to make money.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:45

Yes. No, I said uh no, you need to firstly secure a job. Yes, yes, yes. Then I said between LLB and medicine, medicine will get me a job. I I won't have to immediately you move out of the medical school, you go straight into a job, internship, promising, it's uh comsef, comsef, whatever that comes. Bazaary, the job is secured, it's medicine, and then there's also prestige that comes with uh with the that title of a doctor. Yeah, status, yeah. Yeah. And then I said, if I go that route because the results are there, I think I am capable. Then I can pay for my LLB and I can decide whether I want to go write an exam or not, because with one locum, I can pay the tuition. So if I'm tired, I just don't go and write.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:38

So you knew it was a plan, it wasn't like an accident that you got into this LLB thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:42

No, no, the this this was um planned. They I think the execution was a bit uh uh one that was not that was haphazard. Yeah, but that's ultimately I said, yes, ultimately I'll do it. I remember in my um one of my theater days with uh prof Lindek. Um he asked, he's he's actually the first guy to call me Tsa because he asked me, What is your name? Um I said, My name is Tamezam Sham Yan. I said, hey. So I'm going to call you Tsa. He said, prof, please don't butcher my name. My name is Tamizum Sham Yani, you know where we come from. Then he said, uh he said to me, you know, in America, the one with the money makes the rules. So here when you I look at things, I'm the chairman of the he never really said that, he just said, but you can tell, like I'm the I'm the I'm the head, I'm the ruler. I'm the head of the department. So if I call you Tan, then you are sir. So for a moment, then he asked me, so what are you going to do after this? Then I said, uh I'm going to do LLB. And he was pissed. So all these six years I am training a politician. No, I said, no, um I'm going to do law because that's where I know my heart is. This this uh medicine I can excel because I know how to apply myself. But that I know I must one way the other I must achieve. I can come back and do ONG because it's it's one of my passions, but I will not die without even an LLB.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:32

So what you studied through UNISA? Yes. While working, while doing all this stuff, while traveling and everything.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:39

Yeah, going up and down.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:40

How was that?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:42

It was tough. It was When was this around? Which around uh which years? I started uh no, I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:49

I started 2006 and 2007, 2007 when I moved to to Staffos Post, you know, Ruth Flay, and I I did not register.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:00

Because now this is a new environment. Of course, yeah. I have to learn this HIV thing, and then I registered again in 2008, and then 2009, I think I did second semester, I did not register. 2009, I don't think I I I registered. I don't remember registering 2009 and 10. And then 2011 I moved to then I think I registered. I registered when I was here. Then I had to when I moved back, did I did I register when I was? No, I don't think I registered.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:37

But I can totally understand this because you've got so many things, other things going on. I used to always wonder how people can handle a job and study at the same time. I had it easy because I used to take leave, I used to use my annual leave to study.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:51

And um, me, I I worked nine to f eight to four of you know I we had I had to I tried to fight some of the HRs um with regard to that when I have to go and like no, I'm entitled to to study leave. And the fact that you guys don't understand the relationship between law and medicine, it shouldn't really be my my my problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:15

My manager motivated for me, and so I had a supportive manager.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:18

No, me, it was it was it was a struggle. Um in in Far East, yes, I remember I I think I I I did I did write though yeah, I did write in uh because there was a um there was a campus or a satellite campus in. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, so in in Far East, I I got uh uh a support because the Lincoln manager um was once my my ComSave and then the CEO were from the same area. So we got to understand each other, so it was uh easier. But here in the in the South Coast, it was a struggle, but I I got I got my way.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:00

And you ended up with the LLB what 2016? Yes. Did you ever come across my study notes? You didn't? Yesh 0505. I used to have really famous study notes. People would email me and thank me from all over the country and Africa.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:14

I never uh me.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:15

I used to just do questions and answers.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:17

Yeah. No, me, I I faced I faced Unisa Head on.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:20

Yourself, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:20

I faced Unisa Head on.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:22

And then Wait the So what the plan was to become a lawyer someday or just get that LLB and have it there in case you need to branch off?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:30

No, I I needed I needed to go full Monty.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:34

How did you get into HPCSA? Where did that come from?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:37

And 2018, then I get a job again in South Coast. Now it's uh up and down, eh? In Madchison. Yeah. Yeah. So it's nice. I'm like, you know, when I look at people who Do you just get bored or what? Yeah, my the my my energy and my ability to survey and understand the the environment requires I can I can't spend more than five years in in one place. I'll get bored. I know I'll get bored. So when in 2018 I got that uh managerial job, it was uh quite an interesting one how I got the job because I was uh I was here, um applied for a job there and when the when they did not call me for interviews, you know when you you know when you qualify for for for a job, you have everything, and they don't even call you for for the interview, then I called. Okay. It turns out that the day that I called is the day preceding the day of the interviews. Okay. And they said, no, the interviews were yesterday. I'm like, it's not possible. How is it that I was not shortlisted and that you had the interview?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:58

Confidence, that's confidence, yeah. But there's um throughout your story that you conveyed to me so far, I mean, I've picked up that you are you're a goal-getter. You go for the you don't just leave opportunities. That's an important trait to have, I think. Where do you learn that? How do you who teaches you this?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:18

So is it just I'm born from the family of seven, and when you know the where you come from and realize that you you need to go out there. Go get the money, go get the door so that you can make a difference in uh your mother's life and by extension uh her children and all that. So and the you know the we we live different lives. There are people whose uh in their entire life they have zero struggle.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:50

And everything has to be. But the moment you realize that, yeah, the moment you realize that this is not my this is not my life, and um I have to I have to push, then you you you just do it. It becomes second nature. It's amazing, yeah. So with yeah, with with that, with uh Matchison after I called, then I told them no um please send me the CEO's um email address because now I need to lodge a dispute. And there was an acting CEO at the time. Um when I sent the the email um a week later, they sent me um an email back and then they confirmed with the call to say the process has been aborted, so it's going to be started afresh. Because somebody was asking the right questions. So they started their the process afresh, and then I got appointed.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:51

It's a great lesson, yeah. Like if you don't ask, you don't go out of the way. I mean, that's quite a drastic step you took. You didn't just say, Hey, why didn't I get called? You said Give me the CEO's details. Let me write to you.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:02

Yeah, because you know you have to you have to show course that you you mean business.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:06

Otherwise you sit back and life can just pass you by, eh? Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't have stayed at if you if you if you just sat back, you wouldn't have been a tax. Or you maybe you would have eventually. You didn't you would have done the BS.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:18

Yeah, it was going to take it was going to take long.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:20

Longer there. Yeah. Here. Okay, so then you get that post in 2019.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:24

2018. 2018. I started in August. I did not get a salary, August, September, October. I got my salary in uh in November. And I did not even get my overtime. When I get there, oh the in 2016 there was an incident. Actually, where in in Clutora West, there was an incident where I arrived, I think, in uh in August 2015. Then there is this junior doctor who in January gets charged for the death of a maternal case. Charged by who? The hospital for negligence and for not being there.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:13

Or like an internal disciplinary thing. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:16

Then the guy comes to me, and when I look at his things, I ask for he asked for me to represent him. Then I say, no, it's fine, I'll represent you. Then when we start, then I tell the chairperson that I need the records, the clinical records of this uh this patient that my client is being accused of and neglecting and all that. And I think we had three sittings before the the chairperson lost his uh lost his mind and told the employer that if you do not give this person the clinical notes, then I'm I'm going to upload this thing because he has a right. If he has to represent this person, he has every right. Then when I just threw me's glance at the records, I knew that the the nurse that is their star witness is the one that uh killed the and this guy was nowhere near when this uh this this this person died.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:24

I mean, where do you learn all they don't teach this at UNISA? I can tell you.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:28

That is why that is why I said it's it's in the the there's something that is a gift. It's there, it's with you, and you just need you know the the fake Sangomas and real Sangomas, people who are born with seeing things and people who go to training and they come back, they become lame, they become lame duck.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:51

Yeah. Yeah, you've got it in you to support people, just in general, because you're talking about patients, but this is now a colleague. Yes, a doctor. Uh okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:00

So I got uh I got fired, right? Because after the you know the trial advocates doing uh practicing trial advocacy without even knowing that you're doing that, um during the the discipline hearing, they present and then through cross-examination, then this uh this nurse is sitting there, and then I take her through the uses of uh pitocin. Okay. Pitosin is uh the drug that they'll give you to get the contraction strong, or when uh immediately after you have uh delivered so that the placenta can come out. Okay. Now, one of the contraindications is to use it at uh late in pregnancy, and uh the second one is if you have had uh a caesarean uh section, or if the baby is big, or there's what we call uh the phalopelvic uh disproportion that the baby will not be able to go through the passage, yes, to go through the passage.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:09

Thank you for for uh dumbing it down for dentist. I appreciate this. Carry on, yeah. Thank you.

unknown 1:32:14

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:16

Yes. So then I I read the the notes and I gathered this is what she did because it's there in the in the in the in black and white. Then I had to now take it through like I was uh interviewing Shamila Batuhi. Then at the end, and when I summarized it, I said, okay, you are a midwife with uh years of experience. You are having this uh patient who has a previous season. You called the doctor, and then the doctor gave you instructions, and none of those instructions had anything to do with this drug. And then towards the end, the doctor's shift uh ends and then your doctor comes. You then decide on your own, and against the nursing cancer, against the medical uh uh advice, against the the the drug itself uh precautions. You infuse a drug that then makes the contractions even stronger. And those contractions resulted in the baby kicking the uterus open, and then you took it took then because of you created an emergency that was not supposed to be there, it took about three to four hours to transfer this person from Pretora West to Calafor. You know the distance between Pretora West and Calafor was about 15 kilometers. And like I said, I've been I've put people in in my car to that distance so that we can save life. So this person died. I said the doctor was not there, you were there, you did everything that we're not supposed to do to ensure that this person dies. And whether or not you had intention in terms of the the law, you you were very negligent because you know the outcome of what happens if you infuse this drug in a patient who's having a CPD and the patient died. So I don't under understand why you are accusing the this uh poor junior doctor.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:38

So how do how do you end up getting fired for this now?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:40

No, now there is there is a meta case. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:44

Yeah. Now a meta case, you need to report.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:51

I I I struggled with the the decision for a while. Then one day I decided to go and report the matter. Unbeknown to me, the station commander and the CEO of that hospital, uh, Fred speaking terms. Okay. Then they ended up not even opening the case. Sure. Which is something that but remember meta cases don't expire. So maybe one day when I'm pension and far away, we'll we'll visit that. But then when I opened that case, then they they gunned for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:25

Okay, yeah, no, that all makes sense. I can I join the dots now.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:29

So at the end, and then we had a very messy uh DC, where then the the chairperson showed hand of his biasness, and I'm like, but you you you you're quite biased. And at one point he made uh a decision, a wrong decision, and then when I called him out, he said, No, I cannot uh review myself. Okay, it's fine. Then um we started again, and then I made him now to stick to his word by you know trial advocacy again. And then this time around, when I showed him that no, yesterday you said you cannot review your decisions, now we are here and this is what is happening. You need to stick to the guns, and then you're going to have to to deal with this matter. Then he he reverted, he said, no, I am changing my decision. I'm like, you see, for me, this thing has been caucused outside to say you need to get to get rid of this guy. And I don't think me sitting here listening to this is good for my health. Um you might as well just do it without me. So I walked away, and that walking away obviously that it means they made their whatever decision that they made. And yeah, we had a tough then 2017 resting. I think was it uh August 2016 when the new regulations came? Public safety regulations. So after a year, then I was eligible to reapply.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:09

Then I applied. The struggle was that by that time, uh, because after a year, the department that had uh locked your personal, they need to then lift the ban or the law so that you can be um uh readmitted. Um I went for I came for interviews for forensic uh medical officer post and uh unfortunately I didn't stay long there. Um I stayed for five months, but within a month, um things things things fell into place because um again there you at seven you have to have a meeting um I think on uh Mondays, uh if I'm not mistaken, with the uh ex co. And then but on a daily basis, there must be a handover. So as the medical manager, then I have to chair the those meetings. And people will come at uh 10, 15, or 30 minutes late into the meeting, and then when they get there, they want to understand everything that happened. Ah, the following Monday, and then I said to them, Look, guys, I I arrive here at 7 because I'm a manager and I need to know things before you guys know them about the previous day. And I noticed that there's a difference in terms of the arrival time than the old folks that I worked with back in the day. I asked, um, we're sitting, I think about 20 doctors plus 21 doctors plus two syncal associates. I went to each and every person and asked, who in here does not know or does not have a copy of their employment contract? Do you guys have copies of your employment contract? And it turns out most of this uh these doctors that the general public think uh they are smart and all that, don't know all the facet of uh life. Yeah. So then I told them, please, I need you all, everyone, to get a copy of their contract because tomorrow morning we are going to talk about the contract. The following day, and then I asked them, I asked the most senior, um, one of the senior, not the most, asked them, Doctor, what is uh what what does your contract say in terms of of your arrival at work? What time are you supposed to be here? And she spoke softly. Like, no, please use the confidence, you know, why we know each other, so please tell them. It said half past seven and then doctor half past seven and doctor half past seven and then doctor all of them. Then I said, if all your contracts say you have to be here at half past seven, mine says I must also be here at half past seven, but because of my responsibilities, I come in at seven. Now that means I will not have any other person coming after half past seven. We don't have to agree, it's your contract.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:23

Yeah. You've agreed already.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:24

Yeah. There's a uh uh one junior doctor was doing ComServe, it's actually two. Uh there was a doctor and doctor uh Dr. had uh been in the you know the that Cuban program. Okay, and then uh this um he was just fascinated by this uh new guy, and then we had just uh then when I told them there is a a legal concept that is called uh Pacta Sunt Servanda and then after the meeting, this ones they asked, then they asked this one because she did Spanish, then she explained to them. I said, no, Pacta, it simply says you must do what you said we're going to do on contract, and that's that's all. So the following three days uh we were having more people coming on time, and then the resistant team was still coming at the their own time. Then on Monday after the Monday meeting, as people come from quarter to eight, those were coming, I said, please don't come in, just stay there by the door. So there were like four or five people now standing there, and uh the most senior, uh she's retired, and the doctor she was there amongst them. No, no, please stand there. The meeting is in process, please respect the professionals. Then once we are done, then I had to address them like no, okay. You guys who are not here on time, you can see yourself. I know you. Um, before end of business, I want you to write to me the reasons why I should not charge you. And there was a panic. Yeah, there was a serious panic, and then these other ones were just laughing. So who's this guy?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:23

This is the guy that they said we need somebody like you here.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:26

Yeah, I didn't that's why I'm saying, yeah. I don't know what they're doing in your yeah. So then after that they they scribbled, then but the subsequent Monday, um, I think that week I also told them, um why do you guys wear formal, look so pretty, sharp, and all when you come for interviews? But I didn't even go to the bath because they were reading me because they looked at themselves like shambles, people are wearing all stars, people are wearing um soccer t-shirts. I'm like, how how do I distinguish between you and the visitor and a thug in a hospital setting? Then I said, you are either going to because you are professionals, that one we are not even we don't have to need to to to discuss because you know, so you are either gonna come looking like you are coming for an interview because that is the impression that you made on your first day, or you are going to wear smart casual. I don't want sneakers, no one is gonna come here wearing all-stars. This is not uh uh a shebin or a tavern. No jeans, jeans are to to work in uh in the farms, no jeans, no sneakers, and ladies, please understand I'm a man. And this thing of me when I'm standing next to you there by the sink and I see your cleavage and I start salivating, it's not on because there's going to be issues of sexual harassment. I don't want that. Please mind your cleavage, don't tempt us. It's okay, we respect you, we love you, black women and all that, all of you. But then uh some they raised complaints, oh yeah, this uh this this this guy's that I said they they helped me a lot. Then said, but boss, um you know this thing that you're asking of us. Hey, our wives are going to laugh at us, they're gonna ask what is happening, and uh we need time. Can we at least be given a week or two to get our wardrobe in order because me and we still have to go and consult and like no, it's fine, you go, but uh a colourless t-shirt is not for work, it's for something else. So if you want to be smart casual, you can wear your golf shirt, but there is no coming to work wearing uh your soccer t-shirts. Please respect those people, those people. The patients, yeah, they respect you a great deal. They might not even be in a position to contribute tax-wise, but these are our people. There is no one else who's going who's going to show them that respect. Uh the prestige that comes with this uh profession is dwindling. But for the time that I'm here, please understand that this is going to be the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:33

So you explain where this is coming from. It's like to respect the patient, not because you want them to dress a specific way because you like it like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:41

No, I said we we are professionals. Yeah. First and foremost, we are professionals. And the the respect that they give us, we we must end and reciprocate. Yeah. So then I then ordered, I spoke to the CEO, spoke to the stores person to say, can you please get us the white codes? Wow. Everybody gets uh two white codes. Wow, okay. Yeah. Then I went to to pharmacy, pharmacy, pharmaceucy, pharmacists are always more than uh doctors. So you go to pharmacy, there's uh a giant uh Indian fella there, very nice guy. You know, these always say giant people are always the nicest. So then I forgot his name. I don't think this uh reflects good on me. But then we sat down and then I said, I need to speak to you, speak to him, and he's uh second in charge. Then we need to I need to address the staff. Address the staff, then from there we go to rehab team. I think they were the rehab team were 18, the pharmacy 31, the doctors 23. So go to those units that I'm responsible for. Then I tell them, okay, this is me and this is how we're going to work. Or and then there is dentistry. I don't know why they put dentistry in the back of the everything's like to go. When everything when we are done, when we are done eating, we'll come and call. So then yeah, I introduce myself, then they're like, okay, we need to form a bit uh a committee where we're going to sit, and on every Friday you update me on your work, and I need to ensure that uh rehab is fully recognized, uh, dentistry is fully recognized because most of the money goes to the doctors and the pharmacy. But these engines that are being ignored, um we need to bring them forth. And the guys were very appreciative. Okay. Then we worked, and then there is this thing of HPCA. Yeah, how does that happen? Um I'm trying to recall whether the advert was sent to me. I think it was sent to me by the former no that I think at the time we were still the secretary, general secretary of the South African American Association Trade Union. Oh, Samatu. Yeah, but it was not yet Samatu. We were still fighting tooth and nail with uh with Sama to release it, to release uh the trade union from that uh organization that they had created. Right. Then I think I was on call, I was post-call when I went for interviews.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:34

What was this post now? What is the position that was in thing?

SPEAKER_03 1:48:37

Chief investigator. It's the first, it's the first time that the or I think in 2018, the 2017-2018, council had resolved to commission uh a company to review the structure. So now they were filling the new structure after it was approved by council. And then the the resolution also was that they need to now appoint healthcare professionals because it's it's it's quite uh redundant to appoint a non-healthcare practitioner to investigate health practice things. So that's how I applied and when I got there, um guess who I found in the interview? Professor Lindick.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:35

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:37

I mean he this is 2018. He has seen thousands, thousands of uh students before, but I told him. Did he remember you? No, he didn't. Okay. No, and I could see my excitement was just mine. Yeah. But uh before they even addressed me, because I was excited, then I said to him, Um, of all the people, may I greet my prof uh then came. Can I please remind you that in 2004 when we're operating on that old lady with uh pyometra who ended up uh demising, you asked me what I wanted to do, and I told you amongst the degrees I need to go and do an LLB. Guess what? You are here interviewing me because other than the the medicine um degree, it's this LLB that got you uh interested in seeing me. So you see what I told you that it might have not been uh within your your your your your your catchment at the time, but it's it's important. Yeah. So I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:42

Then we said that must have really hit him, yeah. It would have s sat with him.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:46

Yeah, to say sometimes your your reality cannot it's not reality for for everyone and the forecast as well. You might be in a tunnel and but some other people's views of life goes this way.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:00

Broader and further ahead, yeah. Yes. Yeah. So how was that interview? What was the interview now explain Prof it's prof Lendicky, right? What was his position there? He was the member of the board. Of the medical and dental board at the least and they have to interview all the candidates for this chief investigator. Yes. And when you saw this advert, were you immediately like, I want to do this? What was the what were you what was the role?

SPEAKER_03 1:51:26

In my head, I said to myself, I I most of us don't know what is happening at HPCC. And if I really have to be good at this uh legal practice, I need to go and see what those guys are doing. The salary was low, um, but I said to myself, I will negotiate. So we the the the questions, some of them they they were I think one or two. Uh I couldn't answer proper. But you know, when people know that no, um he might not know, but he's got the the brains and the material to quickly discern the and understand the area. Then they're uh and the right attitude, I guess. Yeah. Yes. And then I I I got the post and there was an impression, though it was not in writing, that we will be able to negotiate your salary when you arrive. Because I said, I don't want much, I just want you to give me what I'm earning here in Madison, because for me that will be able to sustain my life.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:41

And I went there and then things did not work out that way. February, make inquiry, March, you make inquiry, April, you make inquiry, then you realize there is uh an element of corporate psychopath in this environment. And you now need to find ways of dealing with things which is hard if you understand the corporate psychopathic. It's a it's a branch of psychiatry and psychology that is very difficult, that is very destructive, and you don't want to find yourself managed by such uh people at any particular point. But I was there, and then they were then I started lodging grievances because I'm like I I cannot be speaking to the same person about the same thing over and over again. One of the points of dispute was that the new structure, the council had issued a mandate that the new structure must be um populated and the position of the ombudman was now changed to the chief mediator.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:59

Oh, okay. Was it already then that it was happening, yeah?

SPEAKER_03 1:54:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:03

So his contract was ending on the 31st of March, meaning that from 1st of April then the name change, it must be the chief mediator, and the salary is the same as that of chief investigator. Even though when you look at the regulations, the regulations are clear. The chief mediator's job is to deal with less uh serious matters, it's issues that you can mediate minor minor and then to triage. So even giving him the salary of the chief uh chief chief investigator is is uh is a is it is a bonus because the the regulations themselves, they say this one, all that you do is to triage and mediate the dispute between doctor and patient. Then the most serious uh matters then need to be referred to investigation unit. And I'm the chief investigator there, and I've got the investigators, senior investigators and the investigators um under my arm. And now there is the office of the head of uh division that now is manned by Mrs. Troy Smavasa. Um at the time this uh Umbard was acting as that head of the division, but in terms of the policy, then you cannot act for more than six months. Okay. And then him and the the the the head of Liga they then started going astray. I was appointed to to act as it's required, but within a month, then they they did the acrobatics and they put this guy back in that position and I said, but this is this is this is illegal. They you are going against the policy, number one. And I think in one of my investigations, I think I'm not sure whether I was here or I was in uh Bumalanga or Limpopo doing the investigations, then this guy then boasts to them that he is over two million. I'm like a me a a mediator who does not even do the bulk of the work. How is how is it because on the structure the salary is way is is is less than a million now, no, is less is way less than two million. And if we are in terms of the structure, the weight on the structure is that we must earn the same money and he his salary cannot be reduced, then I must be elevated. That became another point of dispute with these two guys, and I the way I saw things, I realized that um I'm not going to win, but now I need to formulate a strategy and a way out. And then I started um writing my formal grievances, and then they went at the level of uh because we are both reporting to the guy from the the the legal services, the head, and um they I don't know why, but you know when you when we are adults and you treat an another adult as if it's your child, and you you become they became quite condescending and it it it worried me, but then I realized what was at play. I'm like, okay, I need to do what I need to do because then there must be uh a trade. Then when they thought the matter was resolved, I said, no, there in there is no way you can resolve this matter this way. Then I escalated to the office of the the CEO who was new and unfortunately for him, he listened to whatever they said. I don't know whether I don't know how the guy got appointed, but there's lots of politics at the HPC that makes it dysfunctional. So um had my grievance and then you came along with the investigation from your side. And by that time, I think in September, I had already resolved that you know what I need to go and do articles. Um, even if they don't pay. Um I'll before I leave, I'll have to take a loan so that I can go do the articles.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:55

Oh, so you were already planning your way out, sort of, and then it just Yes, no, because you see, when we when you deal with the corporate psychopath, it's like we are dealing with the narcissist.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:07

They say it is either you die or get out.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:14

Yeah. Because you will know you will know it's not in their nature to lose. Okay, but apart from all of that, uh the internal stuff, the job itself, did you find it fulfilling? Like where were you going? What were you doing?

SPEAKER_03 1:59:26

No, the job, the job was the job, the job was interesting, right? Um it was it was quite interesting, especially the section 41A. Because the section 41A is where we start the investigations. And like in my my office, um, I was responsible for the deaths for high profile cases, the cases that are in the media, the sexual assaults, and those cases um that need to be reported to uh in terms of uh what's that legislation? Uh combating crime. Oh pregnant.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:06

Yes, uh prevention of the corrupt activities, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:11

Yes, because remember, there there is this uh criminal activity that goes between doctors and the medical schemes.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:19

Okay, so just let's let's um slow it down a bit because there's a lot of lay people that watch this show also. Okay So like as a chief investigator and you're talking about Section 41 investigations, that's when somebody complains or there's a complaint that happens, how does it or and what happens? Like just explain it for even for even medics don't really know.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:42

Yes, um section 41a investigation is where the the registrar of cancel.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:50

Yeah that's the that's the regulator, that's the HPCSA that's regulator.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:54

The CEO of of the of the HPCSA initiates an investigation, then then ordinary um investigations come through complaints. Right. You know, there's complaints handling when they receive complaint. Thomas, yeah, if it's a minor complaint about the the statement or bullying, billing, billing billing, yeah, that one then goes to uh mediation. If it's just a dispute about the displeasure, then it goes to um the mediation. And then if it's something that requires investigation, it generally then comes to the investigation unit. And now you have um and you're the head of that unit at the time. Yes, I was thinking. Yes. Um what happens then is if the we discover that there is a doctor whom is being quoted in the news for wrongdoing. Like there was that doctor in Free State, I think, who was said to have attended to a baby. And uh I think it was operated on the baby, and when the baby did not wake up, um the baby who had actually died, he put the baby on the mother's back and tell them to go home and the baby's going to wake up. And then there is also a case that I had to um follow on where the this uh I think it's the son of the deceased um went viral about the treatment that they got from the Tonga Hospital.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:31

Okay, so on social media and things like that. Yes. So this is all like it's initiated by the registrate. Nobody has to come and formally complain and say this is what happened.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:38

They they they if you cut if you come to formally complain, then the the complaints uh handling people will then sit you down and record, fill in the the forms properly, have you signed, and then they process it. This one this one is started by us.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:56

Although am I right that in some on some occasions a a complaint can then trigger a process to your office also? Yes, yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:04

Yes, then like I said, the where there is uh there's death, there's uh sexual assault, um there's the high profile. I think there was one of the politicians um who is also a doctor, that um then there was a a girl or a makwapeni who complained about being harassed or assaulted by the by that doctor who is also uh a minutes mini or deputy minister. Yes, then that we had to handle.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:31

So high profile stuff and big things.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:32

Yes, and the civil aviation doctors uh we also need to to to to deal with those.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:38

So you see you saw interesting things. Yes. So apart from all the side show that happens in any corporate yeah. It makes you fear doctors. I was going to ask this, doesn't it make you a bit despondent? Like, don't you start to think now is the whole industry like this?

SPEAKER_03 2:03:56

No, I know for a fact, I know for a fact that it's not the the entire industry is not like that. Like I said, the we have uh our family GP, we have good doctors, we have good fellas that I went to school with. Of course. And there are other guys that I have met who have done uh wonderful jobs, and but the the reality of the situation is that not all doctors are good, and that's a fact, and that is why we have the Health Profession's Council to try and get everybody uh in line.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:29

Yeah, and you uh you get exposed to the bad ones a lot.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:33

Yeah, and yeah, that's where that's where you're just the nature of your job at the time to say, I mean, even in in a home, you can have your five or ten children, not all of them are going to excel. If they do excel, then you you you're lucky one. But there is one who's going to be its oatsy, there's one who's just not going to want to do anything, and there's one who's end up doing drugs. It's uh human. It's it's life. Yeah. It's it's this balance. Okay. So then I come along. So you come along when these guys start rocking my boat, you come along, and uh that's when uh when you started then discussing, like, you know what, because I'm in the middle of this uh serious matter, let's let's let's let's pack it. And once this case is closed on my side and I've handed the report, then we can have a discussion.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:24

I always joke with my friends that I that I should have been in recruitment because I there's something I just enjoyed like connecting people and I thought you would have made a perfect fit. Because that that firm you know is uh does medical defense work and you know it would be ideal to get a lawyer and a doctor in one.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:43

And yeah, I think you you for it's unfortunate, like I said, that if you are employed, just know that your employee is not give you is going is not going to give you what your money's worth.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:56

Maybe less than 0.5% employers will do that because what you did for them, they they should have paid you. Uh unfortunately, I couldn't pay. I agree, I agree. I couldn't I couldn't pay you because I was the most broke personal. I agree. I agree, they should have paid me. Yes, because and um I think must also give credit to Donald Dini and the and the team that uh interviewed me and him being able to say you you are an adult, you are a doctor, and now you are here, you went through all this thing without even having done the actual practical work. But please lead the way. Go to Eastern Cape on your own, have a meeting with counsel on your own, and our when you talk counsel this time you mean like an advocate as counsel, not yes, no, the yeah, both the advocate and the in the and the senior counsel, and you you sit with them and you ex you have to explain uh things from the medical perspective, and then you come into law and you think, you know what? When the these guys want to dismiss the fact that I've got the wealth of knowledge being a medical practitioner, having been on the forefront being in the management, and you say you want to treat me financially, you want to treat me like somebody who just left uh VEDS or UCT. I I think the HR is failing because, like you say, you correctly say you have an eye for talent, and that's supposed to be recognized. Now you are having people who know very well, but they don't want to recognize whether I think just to summarize the worst thing that an institution can have is a jealous human resource manager. Good point, yeah. Because your job, your job, once they say your job is recruitment, and you have recruitment has got two components it's recruitment and retention.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 2:08:04

And the retention is based on talent. And if there is such talent, then you you need you need to meet that talent halfway.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:08:14

Because there is uh I don't think there's anybody who can go to a company and say, I want to be to to end 10 million without even having shown anything. But the the feedback that you get from the from the directors should tell you that look, this guy, he knows the medical management, he knows the management of hospitals. And now when we deal with the with the with the patients and we have records, like uh I think Donald asked in the during the interview that now that you're investigating these guys, are you going to be able to defend them? And I said, if my job is to defend them, then so be it. I'm just I'm going to do exactly that.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:59

So And the funny thing is, in the story that we you and I just spoke of, like your life story now, you did do that. You defended a colleague once there. Yeah. And uh you probably didn't even think about it in this interview, to even think of that situation, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:09:12

Yeah, no, because in that in now now that you're see now that you're seeing it. Yeah. But then, yes, again. That's why I don't like interviews, man.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:20

Because interviews, they don't unpack all these things. Like, and if you forget about that moment, imagine how nice it would have been for you to be able to say, yeah, Donald, I've even done it before. There was once a colleague that was charged with this negligence for a debt, and I looked at the record, you know, you would have blown that, blown them out of the water there. Yeah, or that's why I don't like interviews like for jobs, because but it's a snapshot, man, if you don't perform, but trust me, yeah, Yesh.

SPEAKER_03 2:09:45

The Norton Rose interview was there was the best because I think even the the approach, you know, when they say we need to chat, that's one thing that uh I like about uh white folks. They are not uh stuck up. Okay. You know, when you go to to to to to government and they structure the questions and to their level of thinking and to their train of thought. And they expect you to then find or answer along what they think. Like you said, sometimes a person may have a tunnel vision when you now bring a spectrum by your own experience, then it becomes difficult. So we with the the after the I shared the my my my my CV, um I think I was doing investigation here in uh in KZN and then they gave me directions to the the offices there uh center uh no in La Lucia. Oh you went to the La Lucia office, yeah? Yes. Then I went there. I met I forgot who the who the director is there. Who was it?

SPEAKER_00 2:10:59

De Niro, Indian guy or no, it was not De Niro.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:02

It was uh what uh old Craigly, Craigly. Yes, yes, yes. I said I sat with him, and then the other three directors said um I think Brent was there, Donald was there, and uh who's the old man?

SPEAKER_00 2:11:18

Um which one Michael Cronus?

SPEAKER_03 2:11:21

Patrick Bracher from from the Joburg office or from No not it's not Patrick and it's not uh Michael Cronus. Uh which one is no Michael, Michael Michael, the big guy. No, not not him. The the other the other old guy who uses the the the the wheelchair. I can't remember.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:40

Oh oh David Kepplis. David Kepplis.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:43

You cannot afford to David, yeah. Yeah, you can you can't afford to pull the phone. I think he'll he'd he'll take exception when we're calling him old. David Kepplis is what I saw from the clinical senior, senior.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:56

Yes. I hope he watches. I'm gonna send him this this this portion at least. Yeah. So the Or did they in person? No, they were on.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:02

The three the the three guys from Sentin uh plus HR were in uh on video. Yeah on video and then I was sitting with the with the director, the fourth director. Yeah. Then we had a chat. It was more of a chat to us.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:19

Yeah, well you were saying, you know, that's what you like about white folk. They don't they not don't have tunnel vision, but that's you're giving them too much credit. I I just think Donald asked the right questions that clearly.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:27

No, but then the the the the point is yeah, like again, with the talent, talent management, recruitment, and uh retention, you need to know your what you're looking for. Right. And once you found it, it's like when you go for interviews for masters, they don't ask you what are the seven colors of the rainbow, the six colours, whatever. No, they want to understand you, to know you, and then to know your support structure. Because already the the CV has spoken. So that was the the chat that we had. And then when he asked, Donald asked them, like, no, it's it's it's for me, it's a it's it's easy because the job requires for me to do this, and rising to the occasion has never been uh uh a big deal to me. Nice, man. Then what happens is in I I I yeah, I submitted I think on the 9th of December. This is when I I upset uh in the street, we say when I pissed them the most. Yeah, I wrote another grievance that now implicates the the CEO and the head of legal um for favoring this guy and for also um the the the one that they're paying over two million for that uh lesser job and for also transgressing the the rules and the the the policy in terms of the the acting and again in terms of the the the the payment to say uh the there is a policy on equal work or equal pay for work of equal value to say you guys are acting illegally and we are council and then I I copied the the president of the of the council. So those the the guys I think by that time I had uh received the contract from uh from Norton Rose, but I had not yet signed it. Then between the I think the 9th of December and uh the 15th, there was a Sunday where I felt, you know what, let me sign these things because I I've got a bad feeling about this whole shebang here. So I signed and then on Monday morning I called uh the lady from uh HR is it right? Yes, yes, yes. Yes, I called her to say, I've sent you the the the contract and uh can you confirm? Then by email, then she confirmed. Then I'm like, okay, January, I'm starting at Norton Rules. Moving to Santon. Yes. And then the following day, these guys then sent me a notification that uh they are terminating uh my prob or my probation is not going to be renewed. Okay. I'm like, well, since like uh I had an idea and uh I'm I'm at peace.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:29

No surprises there, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:31

Yeah, so I'm at peace.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:32

And then how was um articles at in a Santon law firm? Uh what was the experience like? That was this was the first time in Santon. Now you hadn't worked in Santon before, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:43

Yeah, I don't like I don't like drawback.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:45

I've never liked Drewback. Yeah. So it's too chaotic.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:50

No, the traffic getting getting there and getting out of there.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:57

What was your experience like? What was the first day like?

SPEAKER_03 2:16:00

Ah, the I think the the other advantage uh that I had was uh that um I think the first 20 days there was either there was nothing happening or there was orientation for these ones who come from school.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 2:16:17

And I was given a pass to say you are you are an adult, so most of these things uh we need to settle these uh guys who come from all these uh corners of the country. Um there were the offices, so you can start on the 20th. Okay, but on the contract, then it's uh it's it's the first.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:16:36

So then starting there, it was uh it was quite nice uh environment, and then yes, I was told that my immediate uh supervisor will be Donald. And then I saw you in person, yeah, yes. Then I saw uh I think uh Relebuhile, there's uh Shabalala, there's uh who's this uh Kilebuhile and the and the other folks, and work was nice, and then guys kept on asking, yeah, and you you kept on uh making my life a bit difficult. Yeah when people asked you and then say, No, I'm not the doctor. Here's the real doctor, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then the the guys, the guys were quite fascinated. So so you left, yeah. Why? Why you know I wanted to become a doctor, yeah, but my results let me down. I'm like, oh, I always wanted to become a lawyer. It's weird, huh? Yeah. So then, yeah, we you know, with the medical cases, then every now and then guys will come and ask, what is this? What is this? What why why these acronyms and all that? Then you you assist, and uh the first two months, um it was a bit weird. Now we're going back to English and refined English. You know how Donald writes and uh I don't think you can call that English, Donald.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:06

No, it is Donald Denny's way. You're right. By the way, you know you know that Donald Denny, right? If you are placed with Donald in your first rotation in articles, it means that they see something in you. This is what I was told. Because Donald is a notoriously difficult director to work for because his his practice is just so busy and high-paced, and you know, it can lead to tears. So they put the person that with him that they think is going to survive. So it's a good sign. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:41

If that's a compliment, thank you. Yeah, it is a compliment. Yeah, so working working with him, I think the first uh two months. Um you survived. No, I thrived. Um the issue was when we made corrections. I'm like, now I thought I wrote English and now he's correcting my English. Which English must I now?

SPEAKER_00 2:19:02

Did you get Patrick Brecher able to look at your stuff? No.

SPEAKER_03 2:19:04

No, you did you did tell me to to to send to send to him as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:19:08

But uh with that with Donald alone, it was uh it was sufficient.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:13

Donald.

SPEAKER_03 2:19:14

And uh remember I in June when people were rotating, I didn't have to rotate.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:19

You stayed with Donald.

SPEAKER_03 2:19:20

I was told, no, you you are to stay with this man for the time.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:24

I stuck with Donald for a whole yeah. No, it was love, no, it was love. Nah, I'm joking. Donald was my first um I was I I did articles under him, he was my first rotation also. And that's when the HR lady told me about the story about Donald and you know how they give it to somebody who can survive him.

SPEAKER_03 2:19:41

No, we've got a we've got a lot.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:42

Me, my my rotation. I was like, no, I don't I made a mistake doing law. I didn't understand what was going on. Because it's higher grade insurance stuff that he does a lot of the time. But do you know that somebody's written an article about him? Uh it was in the Daily Maverick. It's called Something My First White Boss. You must go and read this article by Luando Paso.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:02

Yeah, please send this to the phone. I'll send it to you.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:04

And you you will be able, you'll relate. It's uh such a lovely article. If somebody could write an article about me one day like that.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:10

No, he's a he's a he's a he's a he's a good man. Um he does not speak a lot, yeah, if he speaks at all. Yeah. But when you're having a chat with him, uh it's it's it's marvelous. And when you deal with the law, then like, no, I'm dealing with a genius, these guys, and with his uh colourful sneakers.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:31

Yes, and he's got that wicked sense of humor, dry sense of humor. Sometimes you don't know if he's joking or if he's being serious.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:38

Yeah, no, you just have to look at uh how far he's uh you never know. His smile goes, then you know in the walk.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:44

Oh yeah, it's very fast pacing, very sentenced. Oh, did you also follow him through uh to council? Go to council one. I had to. I'll never forget. Hey, one time I walked with him through Santon, get to council's chambers. Now I'm dripping with sweat. Because I'm I'm unfit. Yeah and Donald is the opposite. And then the the there was a senior counsel and junior counsel in the in chambers. We were consulting with both of them. And the junior Sakane, he said to me, Hey, yes, did you walk here or did you swim here? Man, like terrible. Donald, and I said to Donald, now I'm never walking again.

unknown 2:21:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21:17

No, he's uh he's such a lovely guy. Um and remember, I think we went and then I don't know what uh oh COVID came. Oh yes. And then we had to arrange now for the if it does happen that we have to work uh from home. And I think when the announcement was made, we were in that group that was now working from home. And that changed, that changed, that changed things. And for me, it was a it was a blessing because I spent 5,000 a month just to travel from from Pretoria to Sentin. And I think the first week um I used my car, and you know the certain engines don't require for you to do short distances, otherwise you're going to to gasp. So then I switched to How train. Okay, it was it was not it was not cheap either, but it was quite convenient, and it allowed me to walk from uh how train station to the office and back almost every day, which I was uh verified with it. Yeah. So then the articles is two years. No, I remember me, I I did I did one year uh because I had done uh my PLT. Okay. I had done my PLT, I had written my exams, all that I needed was that one year. Um when they talked about the two years, I I I discussed with them that um I'm I'm very clear with what I need in life. And besides me staying two years here, it means I won't uh at my my um I won't be able to afford. So at the at the end, um I think it was October, November, when the discussion started uh with regard to retention. And when we had a discussion about that, then I reminded them, because initially when we had that meeting uh when I was in Durban Um about joining the team, they asked, So, do you have any questions? Then I asked now um in terms of the the the the salary, I said, No, I have a family and I need to be able to to at I don't want much, I just want to be able to maintain the current um uh lifestyle. And then they said, no, it's fine, send us your your salary slip, and then we'll we'll match it, it's fine. And unbeknown to me, HR, when HR saw it and then they turned it down, said no, we won't be able to pay you this.

SPEAKER_01 2:24:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:12

But we know the truth, it's not like they they could not afford. Um, they spoke some things that said to me, this is not uh the those are not the right people for recruitment and retention. But anyway, uh for me, I said whatever they're giving me, it's far more than what I will ordinarily get because to start with, I was willing not to receive a pay just to get the articles. Yes, of course. And something that people that will not understand is that that year, that year of sacrifice was worth more than a million rands for me. So it cost me, I paid one million to do articles with what those guys were paying.

SPEAKER_01 2:24:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:56

And when people ask you then for advice and they illegal advice and they say, can I can I can I can I pick your brain? I'm like, no, you can't.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:08

Yeah, it's worth it's worth it's worth it.

SPEAKER_03 2:25:11

It's a lot. It's got value. Yeah. So at the end, then we start uh talking, would you like to stay? I'm like, look, if I have to work with Donald, then I will definitely stay. And surely we're going to discuss the issues of money. And then when we discussed the issues of money, I told them, like I said, I I don't mind spending another year or two here, but not with what you are what you are giving me or whatever you're thinking you give your um first-year associates. Um, because um I'm doing you understand that I'm doing uh medical law in the real sense of medical law, medical education. Um I have an understanding of uh clinical medicine and that includes management and uh forensics and the things that I discuss with um counsel and the discuss with the team are the things that are some of them I've acquired them over a period of 15 years. This is my reality, nobody else, because I would see it with the the specialist, you know, they bring a pediatric specialist and then we discuss the case, or they bring the obstetrician and we discuss the case or the surgeon. I I have to go and do my the clinical notes. I have to read those clinical notes and check everything against what this person's opinion is going to to to be. And then when they are giving us uh the untruth, then I will I will call them out that this is not this is not the case. You you need to know the the difference between CRP, ESR, and uh PCT. And now when you are an advocate and you're taking a brief and this person speaks of these things and they mislead you, it means you need to then go and do research. But I'm sitting here and I'm telling you, no, but this cannot be correct, Doc. Can we review the the position? What are you saying? Because given the chronic the chronology of this this matters does not make sense. You are um I'm I'm saving the company the the time of now getting a second opinion and all that, and you don't want to pay for that because you are saying I'm a junior associate, you are not appreciative. And I said, Look, um at the end of the day, and I think that in our last meeting, I said, Look, if you cannot pay me for what I am worth, then I would rather go and save uh serve public because the public is worth every cent that I'm worth, even though they cannot pay me.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:58

Very good point. Okay, wait, hold on. So you you you you you left Norton Rose, end of 2020. January 2021. Yes. And you went back to state.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:09

I came I came here to do forensics, yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:12

Oh, so you're working in the forensic pathology department. Yes. Uh the MO, yes. And you what you're doing, autopsies and things. Yes. Sure. From legal work to then cutting up dead bodies and checking the cause of death. Yes. Fascinating, eh? It's inter it's interlinked.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:31

Fascinating if you if you think about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:34

And uh explain that. Um I was uh I think the whole of this year I was doing a presentation, uh, a series of presentations were uh titled Medicine is law. Okay, and because the our practice is founded in law. The the the the forefathers they studied the art, but then it got regulated, and then the it's now based on law. There are more than 32 um acts that we actually put in practice when you practice medicine. So with uh forensic uh forensic pathology, we need to determine the the cause of death in terms of the Inquest Act 58 of 1959. The I think, and that's the same one that I used when I tried to open that uh criminal case in uh in 2016 to say, in terms of section two, a person who believes that um the person who died died not of or other than natural death has the duty to report to the police. And in terms of section three, the police have a duty to open a case and cause for the body to be um investigated by a qualified medical practitioner. Fascinating. So from opening cases, and now I'm doing the actual autopsy. And this is where this is for remember the now the representing patients or the medical litigation. You either represent somebody who has already died through their estate, or you represent somebody who is alive but is suffering from the consequences or the complications of the medical intervention. Now, this is where you see the the surgeons and the the hospitals um contribution to to the to the to the to the demise of uh of patients, and you also sometimes you you look at uh the forensic from the academic perspective where you need to do the autopsy and then the because the people who were dealing with the patient, they have interest in the in the matter. Sometimes you have the we'd have to perform an autopsy because the family does not believe that this person died of natural causes. They have the right to to to request an autopsy.

SPEAKER_00 2:31:13

Is there a difference between an autopsy and a postmortem? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 2:31:18

A postmortem is an umbrella term.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:31:21

You you can do a postmortem without doing an autopsy.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:25

Right?

SPEAKER_03 2:31:26

An autopsy is about doing the actual dissection of the body. And what's a post-mortem then? A postmortem. Um like let's say um when you're having uh a skeleton from the sea, there's nothing to dissect. Right. So that is a postmortem. When you're having a person whom is not known whether this person um how this person died, and you get the history from the family that no, this person had one, two, three, four, five.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:03

Then you that's that is post-mortem because it's an investigation after life. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:08

But you don't need to dissect necessarily.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:10

You yeah, it is the that's this way we always talk about the the the doctor's discretion. You decide, and sometimes you will have a body that is so destroyed, then you know these people who whether it's homicide or suicide on the train, and all that you have is a crushed uh body you you look at that and you then And when do you have to do an or when do you have to dissect? You you have to die you you dissect when you are of the opinion that there is something to find, or you are not sure about what is is going on. And most and in most cases, surgical cases you you go and dissect. Um medical emergency cases that they that had um a hand or intervention or they stayed in a hospital or there was a delay, whatever the cause, and then the violent traumas.

SPEAKER_00 2:33:16

So any unnatural death, am I right?

SPEAKER_03 2:33:19

Autopsy, autopsy is about unnatural death. Yeah. That's why I said there's a um natural deaths, they deal with them there, yeah, and then the natural deaths that come to us because there is no place to like an unknown person that comes to the attention of the community, and it's it's unknown, and therefore the family cannot be called. We become a temporal custodian. So you just keep the body there. We need to certify, we need to certify that person.

SPEAKER_00 2:33:50

So all your your your patients are all dead. No, all your patients are dead, no.

SPEAKER_03 2:33:57

Yeah, yeah, so I'm doing forensic pathology, of course. all dead. It's it's in the I deal with the dead. No, like and and I I think we need to correct they are they I don't I don't but they're not called patients. Yeah what do you call them? It's it's cases because we get cases from the police.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:16

And is it not like does it not creep you out? So you're just dealing with dead bodies every day. Yes. And you're okay. I don't know you tell me am I okay? Why did you get into that?

SPEAKER_03 2:34:28

Was it just by no it's uh like like I said I went to HPC for a reason. I wanted to know what the the counselor does and then when I came to forensic it's it was a built-on okay to say when once I sit and I have enough capital to say now let me start uh working then I know I can deal with the the deceased I can deal with the living in terms of uh medical litigation and all that and the newborn so you've gone from beginning of life to end of life basically you've covered it all and the complications that come after in the afterlife so what's the what's the what's the plans?

SPEAKER_00 2:35:13

What's next? Because remember you told me you get bored very easily but you've been here for a long time now. How long now?

SPEAKER_03 2:35:19

I spent three years in the South Coast and I think on my anniversary of that three years I had told those people that um because they said we like you we hope you stay I'm like no I'm not an avocado three so you're a nomad I'm not going to stay yeah they were disappointed but ultimately they after I said to them I'm going to spend three years. Basically I had told myself I'd be in this uh for three years and after that I'll be able to be on my own uh as an attorney but it things were differently. Also is the plan to now be an attorney again is the plan to now be an attorney again yes no the the plan is to ultimately yeah ultimately I I I need to be able to sit and uh deal with the medical legal I'm I'm not going to I'm not going to derive anything uh over and above what I'm doing at the at forensic.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:17

And when you say medical legal it's not necessarily defense work.

SPEAKER_03 2:36:21

No we have client at client we deal with that line sometimes you defend like we did at the oh and not to rose with defending the that line but if here if if I'm an in uh independent then I I deal with whoever wants to be represented.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:40

Wow okay so that's next in the on the agenda then yes one of these years wow sure hey but it's a fascinating life and story that you've got man yeah it's a it's a it's a it's a it's it's a long hectic life but how old are you?

SPEAKER_03 2:36:56

You said people think you're old but I feel like having spoken to you now I feel like you're younger than I always thought you were pity I want to girl I was going to blush and uh so but then once you become a lawyer then you'll end up in politics maybe one day not really um not really not not not not really um would you be Minister of health if you had if somebody invited you would you ever be interested in that yeah I've been I've been asked that question but uh unfortunately the people who asked me that question are not powerful. Exactly not in a position to put you go yeah but if somebody who it's it's it's said um yeah I think it's a it's something that I I can I I can take up um but I always believe because growing up I I taught myself this in that in order for you to be a good leader you must start as a good follower. That's deep go to the ground get your hands dirty know the job so that when you are up there and you tell people what needs to be done and when they you call for the frog and then they give you a red you must know the the the the difference so that when you reprimand you say please don't don't play that game this is what I called for it's it's informed decisions that you're making based on experience. And the unfortunate part is that it takes it takes time it takes time for you to to to gain this uh this knowledge yeah there's nothing that can um replace experience yeah and there's no shortcut what do you do for fun besides um cutting up dead bodies and things like that what do I do for fun I I I lived with my with my daughter here so how old is she ten she she she she turned ten this year then in the morning I take her to school then I go to work in the afternoon uh fetch her and then we come home on weekends we either go to the beach um for her to to to swim or we can you swim it's it's been uh it's yeah but uh the the the loction uh the township swimming to the but you can survive if thrown in water you can survive no yeah that's why I've got a pool go in there and come out well you be okay no I can I can't I can swim.

SPEAKER_00 2:39:29

Because the previous guest that I mentioned who was also the sports hacker Cayfus we once threw him in a pool when we went on haka camp and we thought he was joking the guy started floating with his head face in the water after a few seconds we realize we realized the guy's not joking so we had to jump in and pull him out because he literally cannot even keep his head above water.

SPEAKER_03 2:39:50

No um I can I can I can swim you know in the in in townships when there's streams of water even in the in the villages the the streams of rivers where you go there and you as as boys you you learn how to how to survive in water okay so that's how and then as you grow then you also learn some uh few tricks okay and that's also how I taught my daughter how to how to swim then once I realize that I think my scope is done then I take it to the professionals and then she goes to school where she she also learns. And your favorite genre is Maskandi music I I I I listen to all all kinds of music um be it jazz be it uh orchestra be it uh uh what do you call to listen to like gospel stuff and yes I wanted to say gospel I listened to it yeah but it's got every every other music um I listened to but I remember when I was in uh in Texas um for the the when I had the orchestra for the first time I think it almost uh threw me into depression and unfortunately it was not my car didn't have a car then so I'm sitting with this uh two guys we're driving to Galafung and they're playing some very dull you know it's like uh some demon is coming into the car kill me once yeah now no nowadays I listen to what Christopher teen I listen to do you listen to podcasts by any chance or watch any podcasts not really not not really anything and start subscribe to this one at least no yours yours yours yours I I I I catch those snippets that you that you had to force on everyone yeah yeah the the one thing that I I do and I think I'm going to do uh most of it is with uh adopt you know they now have that uh audio version where we're able to switch the to audio yeah the the acts and the regulations so when I drive a long distance I also just switch into that and uh I listen to to to the act so that when I get to the end then I know what the act is about or the regulations about. To the law shesh and you stay awake that whole drive wow no I mean I then no yeah that's that's that's one of my I used to say if I make good money yeah I must get myself a truck then I can live in Pretoria and then do long distance go to Cape Town and uh for a week and then back you know do the the cargo.

SPEAKER_00 2:42:38

And listen to legislation as you drive Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:42:42

No kissing for like about uh three hours or then from there you switch to to music and then you know hip hop and then you No well if the law doesn't put you to sleep then you can at least do me the least of a favor and listen to my podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:43:01

No I will I will no I will definitely We always ask this question on the show before we wrap up and you mentioned 10-year-old daughter I don't know if she's given you any I inc any insight into her inclinations but if one day she comes to you and says Dad I want to I'm thinking of doing medicine do you have any advice for me? What would you say to her?

SPEAKER_03 2:43:25

Well um this is one thing that uh is uh is fascinating about my mind daughter and uh in uh in isulu they said yeah they take most of your trades yeah no she told me very early that uh that she calls me say what uh say what I want to be like you what is say what mean okay uh back in 2017 she is born first july so the plt started on the 3rd of July yeah and then on the 1st of July was her birthday and then the second was the day before I left she was about two at the time so vocab was not that strong and we were sitting in the in the bike and we're playing um Rick Ross okay uh Austin Martin yeah yeah asked him music yeah yeah say what okay like then then I'm like say what okay now at that time she had not because she sees me every day she had not uh formulated a name that she liked their father dead or in any language so then I left for for for for Howard College and then for two weeks that's the last thing that she knew and then she kept on asking my cousin and her mother where is say what that's cool. Kai say what? Kai say what and they they because this is a child you don't know what language she speaks because the mother speaks Zulu my my cousin speaks the Swan and this child keeps on asking this question and she at that time she was not even attending uh clash and stuff then I come back after two weeks then she points at me say what all the way until now she so she said when the child says I want to be like you then she's basically saying please act right because I want to be a lawyer and I want to be a doctor and then maybe I also want to be uh a teacher wow man can I do all these things I'm like it's quite easy but you need to know that you need to put in the work that's fascinating cool man say what Rick Ross inspired nickname for you man thank you so much sir Dr.

SPEAKER_00 2:46:03

Sametse Muslamon Yane Sametse it was fascinating man maybe in we speak again in five years when who knows what'll happen maybe you've got your own practice yeah I'll be I'll be 50 then so thank you I I'll invite you to my 50th birthday thank you so much thanks a lot I appreciate the conversation thank you thank you very much sweet for coming