SPEAKER_01 0:00

Dr. Faisal Mansour. Vice Chair of the South African Dental Association Board. Founder Fresher Breath. What do you call yourself in terms of Mayo Brace? What is i all sorts of entrepreneur, disruptor, businessman, father, husband. Okay. All of the body. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Thanks for joining us, Faisal. Thank you, Yashen Yak.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

How are you doing? Good, good, good. Thanks for having me. Yeah. You're used to these podcasts now. I've seen you recently on a couple. It's been fun, yeah. You know, I heard you on a podcast about a year, over a year ago, I think, on Dr. Chantel Ambrose's uh Behind a Smile. And I knew that one day if I start a podcast, I want to get Faisal on and talk to him because you gave such an interesting story, multifaceted. You know, that was more business related. You know, this podcast is not very business related. We talk about you. Why did I become a doctor, Faso? But one thing that stood out to me is you said that probably one of the most important things in your life is finding the right partner. And you spoke about your wife. Yeah. Faso, why'd you become a doctor, man? Why'd you become a dentist? Tell us.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

See, if you ask me now 20 years later, it's easy to answer that. But if you asked me a few years ago, it would have been much more difficult because I think I was lacking purpose. So when I decided to do dentistry, it wasn't for the reasons that I'm doing it now. Um I I tell my kids, in fact, yesterday one of my daughters asked me, like, why did I become a dentist? And I said, honestly, I think when I was in school, there was a girl in my class and her father was a dentist and the Oak Drover Ferrari. And this was in the 90s. And this isn't Durban. Right. And I thought, wow, if he can have the doctor title, and and and and when cell phone just came out, his daughter was kind of the first one to bring her cell phone to school. She used to leave it on her desk. Because one of those Nokia. Right. And and at that point, like most adults didn't have cell phones, and yeah, you've got a uh someone in grade nine or ten got a cell phone, father picks up in a Ferrari, and I thought, okay, you know what, that okay has a life, and um that's the life that I want. Right. Umly to discover that that that it's not as easy, it's easier said than done. Um it's not everything about life. So I think I think that was my earliest inclination towards dentistry because of the title, uh and and because there's no calls at night, and you know, the the lifestyle, though the perceived lifestyle uh was kind of appealing at the time. And I think that's the reason. I mean, there's no passion for dentistry. I didn't even know what dentistry was besides fixing teeth and cleaning gums. Uh, and then obviously over the last 20 years, it's been a journey of of a love-hate relationship with dentistry. As much as I try to leave, something always pulled me back. And 20 years later, I can't, I mean, I wake up every day excited uh to be a dentist because of the type of work and the type of things that we're doing. Um but to answer your question, I think I think the intention to become a dentist was kind of on the wrong premise. Yeah, in hindsight. Um it should it should have been for the love or the passion or something more um uh uh more genuine, more authentic, drawing me in. It it wasn't that case, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

There's a one of the posts from a previous podcast that you've been on with Elton, Lau, it went viral where you spoke about doctors, a dentist being doctor. Yak always has a a bit of a uh a digot, you know, at a dentist. A self-loathing dentist. Self-loathing dentist where he talks about dentists and doctors. So you introduce this guy as well. Okay. Well you remember it's a it it's a video and audio podcast. So there's a for the listeners, there's a troll. Can we call him a troll? There's something on the desk here. What what is this, Faisal?

SPEAKER_02 3:57

So this is not just something, this is called a sensory homunculus. Right. So after the podcast, you can Google it, right? And and he is he I commissioned him uh with a sculptor in the UK. So he's the 164th homunculus in the world. Right. Um I think the first in Africa. So if you look at his skin complexion, I commissioned him to be reflective of our demographic. Um and why and why he's important, it's because if you look at his proportions, right, you'll notice the big hands and the big head. But everything else is is is kind of tiny in relation.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Are you are you sure there's um this make this PG-rated episode? Um I've got a side view here of what's expecting.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

And I had to commission the loin cloth as well to cover his uh his proportionate. His proportionates, right. Um and the reason I commissioned this uh uh sculpture is because uh from a ratio perspective, he's the ideal ratio of the brain's uh uh priority for body function. So you would think that the heart is the most important uh uh uh organ in the body or the cardiovascular system is the most important functioning, but the hormonal shows us it's actually your hands and your face.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Right. So if I so if I'm getting you right, the larger the proportion of the body part, the higher precedence it takes on uh in priority. Yeah, in priority. Yeah. Well, so hands are more important than the brain.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it all comes down to the brain prioritizes function for survival. For survival. So if you've got someone who's in fight or flight, right, you're gonna need your hands to fight. You're gonna need your hands to be part of the running away. Um, survival is also eating and drinking. You need your hands to bring food to your mouth, right? So this is the body's priority. So, so in a in a situation of fight or flight or sympathetic stress, these are the structures that the body will prioritize, therefore the sensory hormonculars. Now, why that's important to dentistry and why I had him made is that I use this to explain to patients uh the importance of the mouth. And this will tie into your to your jokes about the doctor dentists, right? Because I've heard it on other podcasts of yours as well. Um and and I was of the same opinion.

unknown 6:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Well, what is the question? Well, no, my question was going to be uh are dentists doctors. S somebody commented on my post recently and said, Dr. Naidu, do you do you not believe that dentists are doctors? Yeah. And I and I just said, well, subscribe to the channel and and and find out more. I didn't want to give an answer there.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Okay. So I hope that I can give you the most clearest answer to that, to that question because of kind of where where where I am at this part uh or at this point in life. So so obviously in the early days, I was kind of adamant that dentists are definitely doctors because we do everything else that everyone else does. And I think it's sad that we actually have to um uh that we actually have to defend that that position or title. But I but I can now understand why the question comes about, because when I was at at dental school and in our second year of studies, we did anatomy. We did the full body anatomy head to toe. Right. And in our group of six, I think it was group of four, in our group of four, so there's four, four students per cadaver, there were two dentists and two medics. So we did the exact same thing that everyone else did, right? But at that point I questioned that if dentistry is only about the mouth, why do I have to dissect the layers of the plantar surfaces of the foot? Now, you know, when you're young, you're young and there's a fair amount of um naivety to being young. Uh and I think the level of maturity and level of thinking uh matures over time. Um and a few years after the dental curriculum was cut to just head and neck anatomy, and I think now it's not even head and neck dissections, it's basically head and neck observation, if I'm not if I'm not mistaken. Um and and and at that time what the situation is is now in the training is what we preferred then because we could never understand. But now that I understand the correlation between the head to toe, right? And that and that if you make um unilateral decisions about the mouth, you can affect other body systems. If you don't have that understanding, then dentists shouldn't be doctors. Because if you don't have that understanding, then dentists are basically aestheticians or glorified beauticians. Because the sad reality is over the last hundred years, when medicine and dentistry were attached at the hip, I mean, even at the health professional councils, medical and dental council, why medical and dental? Why such priority to dental? Because you can't separate the medics and the dental. We are always attached at the hip. But what's happened over the last hundred years, if you look at at where medicine has gone, it's become very symptom oriented. You go to any doctor, any specialist, you tell them your symptoms and they want to find solutions to calm those symptoms. And you go to dentists and it's mostly about whitening veneers, crowns, cosmetics. All cosmetics, all cosmetics. Now, if you're moving towards cosmetic, it's very technical. And to have a doctor title, it means there's healing behind what you're doing. There needs to be healing. And and and and you can't tell me bleaching someone's teeth is healing, or putting fancy veneers is healing. Those are all cosmetics. But if you're doing something to enhance that health challenge, and you understand the role of that health channel challenge or the rest of the body, or how things in the rest of the body can manifest. And I don't want to say the mouth, because the mouth is just a part of a system. And we don't look as dentists, we don't look at treating a system. So I mentioned the other podcast that if you look at specialists of systems, they treat systems. Right. You don't get a cardiologist that's just treating the heart, but it's treating the cardiovascular system, and he's the specialist of that. So if dentists don't become physicians of the stomatogenetic system, then I don't think they they they could they should be called doctors.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Can I you know you mentioned one of the things that enticed you to to the career of dentistry as a youngster, seeing the girl with a father who had a Ferrari and a doctor title. I mean, and you've mentioned this quite a few times. Title. I wonder if dentists didn't have the title doctor, would you have thought about becoming a dentist?

SPEAKER_02 10:47

I think that was one of my influencing factors, right? Because I think human beings, human beings by nature like to be liked. No one likes to be disliked. And I think human beings like titles because titles allow you to be liked. So at that age, that's what you think is important in life, right? You want to be liked and you think a title will automatically give you a ticket to the game to be liked. But as I said, how you think in your teenage years and how you think 10, 20, 30 years ahead is different because of the experiences that you have in life. I mean, you're gonna have ups and downs and you learn from those ups and downs. Looking back, I laugh at my younger self, right? But I never knew any better then. And no one at that point guided us to do career counseling. I mean, now my kids will talk about career counseling, we will do it as parents, but our parents never thought about that. It was like you become a doctor, a dentist, an accountant, a lawyer, and that's that's your options, you know? And I mean, if you look at like that's how the Indian community kind of guided, and I'm sure it was your guiding light as well. These are the options that we have in life. So it was a very different world uh to to what we have now. And and at that point, that m this made the most sense to me. Um and I went with it. And I went with it.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

I I love your answer. It it shows growth, right? Uh and I can totally relate. When I was young, one of the main factors was the doctor title. I have the DR title and the dollars. One of my, you know, one of the guys in my class even said I did dentistry for the DR and the dollars, right? But then as you get older and you mature, you you have different perspectives, right? My perspective now, to answer Dr. Sidibe's question when he commented about do I not think that uh dentists are doctors? To be honest, I don't care. Like, what's the point? Whether you call me doctor or mister or even sir, it makes no difference to what I'm doing, right? This leads on to my question. If somebody gets sa calls you Mr. Mansoor, do you correct them?

SPEAKER_02 12:40

I don't care. How honestly don't care. Maybe, maybe 20 years ago I would have, because it's cool to see doctor on a letter coming to you, like in right. And when you graduate and you have that doctor and your certificate and you go to do your comm service, and you're just young oak with no experience, but people are calling you doctor, you feel that you've achieved. But honestly, as you mature in life, you realize how childish that thinking was. But it's difficult to tell a younger person that you have to experience it to know that it doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So now it doesn't matter. Now it doesn't matter. But back then, it did matter. Yeah. Yeah, because you justify, I spent so many years studying so hard to get this. I deserve this. And honestly, we don't deserve much, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Wait, but uh on that note, uh just to clear my name, because I mean a lot of people know that I'm a self-loathing dentist. Okay. But I can't I we had this guest on uh on the show recently, and I came to this self-realization as I was talking to him. So he's an endodontist, he he treats uh he does root canals. And it came to me that apart from urologists and neurosurgeons, he's the only other person that touches a cranial nerve because the inferior alveolar nerve and where it ends up is the end result of a cranial nerve. Don't ask me to explain the pathways, but that's number one. And number two, we don't know, and I and I hope that gains traction for whoever is watching that maybe someone should look into it. But secondarily, they whoever came up with dentistry, I mean, if you want to be a specialist working in some areas of the body, right? You go and you do medicine first, and then you specialize in the area of the body. Whoever started dentistry probably said, Hey, this speciality of this region of the mouth requires its own dedication and its own school from the onset. Don't do, don't go and do medicine. Start from the beginning so you can concentrate on that. And it also leads me to that understanding that I mean, we can somewhat treat systemic conditions, right, to a limitation. But you go ask a medical doctor, and maybe medical doctors who are watching this, ask them to do an extraction or ask them a pace of veneer, or ask them to do and whitening. Majority of them wouldn't be able to do that. So it doesn't work both ways. Yeah. And to um nullify and indemnify myself, I think dentists are really cool. And uh yeah, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

So so so let me add on to that. So so the the reality is that that teeth were pulled by barbers 200 years ago. And and and the way we have a dental chair is because patients or clients went to a barber's barber's chair, and that's where where tooth were pulled. And I think that's the early uh uh uh phase of dentistry. And then in the early 1900s, you had the Giz report and the Flexner reports that were commissioned by the Carnegie Foundation. So one report looked at training of medical professionals, and one report looked at training of dental professionals. And the intention behind it was good, behind commissioning those reports were good because there were so many different schools of thought and so many different ways of treating patients, and this wanted to kind of standardize uh the learning. And I think in that kind of standardization, they say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and out of that good intention came the the split um uh uh between between medicine and dentistry. I think the other thing is when you look at at our medical colleagues, um, whatever they're treating, right, is within the body. It's not accessible by anyone. The mouth is accessible by everyone. So it seems that because the mouth is accessible, you don't have to operate to get in. It's on a lower hierarchy of importance than every other uh uh medical speciality. And I think that's where the issues come about. If we talk about neurology and the inferior alveolar nerve, actually, dentists should be neurologists because on every function of the stomatic genetic system there's neurology involved. It's the only system that has heart tissue and soft tissue. It has neurology, it has uh uh vascular system, it has uh um uh uh uh lymph nodes, it has everything combined. It's also the entry of the gastrointestinal system, right? So, so our our system is like the melting pot of so many other systems. So if that's the case, we need to know what the impact would be on every other system. Like if you just look at at our microbiome and people talk about the gut microbiome, right? What replenishes a gut microbiome? Every time we swallow, we're moving oral microbiome into our gut, right? So so if you don't understand how a system functions, you're only gonna limit yourself to fixing what you can see, which is teeth and gums. And I think that's the mistake that we've made as dentists, and that's where the dental profession has failed us. We we haven't thought bigger. We often say think out the box. But you can't say think out the box. You've got to know how to think out of the box to think out of the box, right? Higher lay people say think out of the box, and it sounds cool, but actually do it. And and it's a very difficult thing to do. And I think that's what's failed us. I think academics has failed us. I think, and this is throughout the world, right? Um, so I think unless and until that changes and we and we don't hold ourselves to a higher order, right, we'll always be looked at as people that just fix things, right? It's like fixing a pothole. I mean, we're not fixing potholes on teeth. We need to understand why the tooth became decayed in the first place, or why the jaw are narrow and the teeth are crooked in the first place, or why the face is recessed. We have to start asking why. And until and unless we don't ask why, we're always gonna say, oh, but you're just a dentist. You can't just be a dentist, right? You need to be a physician of that system. And and we need to start thinking that way and moving in that direction.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Yeah, I mean, I as I got older, I just my view is that this doctor-dentist debate is all about status. We just want to say, you know, you you mentioned the phrase you're just a dentist. Who says that? It's usually the doctors, right? The medical doctors. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

But they actually say that though. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

They're shy. They're shy too. They say that and they say, uh, oh, you couldn't get into medical school, that's why you became a dentist. I never applied for medicine. I applied for dentistry.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Right. After I qualify, I never applied to specialize because I wanted to have a generalist outlook of how the stomach genetic system works. So people judge you based on, I think, their insecurities. Right. Um, and we fall into the trap, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:14

I would beg to disagree because I've never heard I don't think doctors are bold enough to say that. I think it's other soft-loathing dentists.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

No, I'll tell you, I'll tell you why Yak doesn't know this. Yeah. And you might not know that because Yak was the only guy in his dental class. Um, I'll tell you, Yak was the only guy that studied dentistry because where he studied in Mauritius, they closed the dental school. So he was the only student in the class for like two years, right, Yak? I'll tell you where this where the where this debate starts is in med school and dental school, where you'll have friends who are who are studying medicine and they'll flook you, they'll say, Ah, you guys are just done.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

I didn't have any friends.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

I was like, There was even this unspoken hierarchy where like, let's be honest, the the doctors would look down on the dentist, the dentist would say, Okay, that's fine. You're doing pharmacy, okay, you're doing physio. There's this unspoken hierarchy. And then it it sort of manifests later on in life where we start having these debates among ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

And this is a debate that happens because clearly Does it happen now still? Like with qualified doctors doing that. It happened. It doesn't happen with me in med school.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

It doesn't happen with me anymore because I I think I've I've I've come to a point where I can kind of walk the walk and talk the talk and show them the deficiencies in their in what they are doing. Right. Uh and before we never had the guts, because how can a person at fixed teeth show a medical colleague or a medical specialist deficiencies in what he's doing? But when you can, then it kind of doesn't just level the playing fields. It kind of garners a different level of respect that was never there before. Um and that comes from asking why, why, why, and finding answers because the world is full of answers. We just got to search uh for for the information and the knowledge, and I mean everything is there. And I think ever since I've pivoted the way I do things, it's changed. So before I've I kind of felt that same way. Now I don't. And even if it comes up, I mean, I can I can go into a debate with someone that may potentially embarrass their knowledge. Not to say that I know everything, but but but I can show the correlations of certain things which just, you know, uh uh uh uh uh people could could could kind of be stunned by by that. It's all evidence-based, but but I think the more knowledgeable you are in a subject, the more confident you are. So nothing else matters. Aaron Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

But this is why I feel like it's a debate not worth having, because everybody not everybody we all know, we all have deficiencies, right? Sometimes even your patients might know about more about a condition than you. No doubt. No doubt. So what's the point? No doubt. Why do we even have this debate? Now tell us, what was it like like childhood? Where did you grow up?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

What did you do? What did your parents do? Trevor Burrus, Jr. I grew up in Durban. Yeah. Um that in in those days, it was it was kind of just before apartheid was kind of disbanded. So it was 394. So so as we kind of apartheid and and Madiba became president, I was in my teenage years, so in high school. So before High school. I mean, Indians used to go to Indian schools, and it used to be the House of Delegates at the time, and you had House of Representatives. And you know, we used to look forward to the head of the House of Delegates visiting our school once a year because we knew the day he visits, he's going to give us the next day off from school. So we used to look forward to that. So there were only Indians in your school? Only Indians, yeah, only Indians. Because that's how it was pre-94. And where was this in Durban? This was in Durban. So I went to I went to so my primary school was called Anjum, it was in Leopold Street in Durban City. And then I went to high school to Orient, which was near the Graveville Race Course, and that's where I matriculated. So that was, yeah, that was kind of early childhood. My dad still has um textile business in Durban. So at the time he was probably the largest distributor of blankets in the province. Um so that was his trade. Um and kind of I grew up in that. And being the eldest, uh, I used to often help him on holidays in the shop and uh those types of things. If there are customers coming from out of town at night, um I used to go with him to the shop and serve them. So kind of that could that that that's kind of how early childhood was. So you didn't have like school holidays, you were basically working at your school holiday. And I loathed it at the time because my friends used to wake up late, and most of my friends whose parents were doctors and dentists literally had the life and I had to I had to be at work. And and at the time you you kind of have some remorse, but if you fast forward, the skills that I learned from an early age, like the work ethic. The work ethic from I would say the earliest the earliest memory I have of trading, of selling, probably around the age of six or seven, right? And and you don't realize the skill of selling that you ingraining in yourself from a very, very young age. I mean, customers walking past, you'll offer them dish clots and face clots and toys and oh, whatever, whatever you can sell. And and I think that's kind of the earliest memory I have of some sort of entrepreneurship because I knew from that age that this was the cost of the item, and I had to sell it for a marker. And at the end of the day, when my father tallies, there must be profit, and and we managed to do that success successfully. I mean, there were some days where we used to sell like 10, 12 grand worth of, and this was putting a table outside a shop, probably in grade five, six, seven, right, and doing 10, 12 grand worth of business selling. I mean, we used to sell a t-shirt, right? At that time it was 10 bucks worth a t-shirt, and used to, and the and the printing on it was, don't worry, be happy. Don't worry, be happy. Um uh and those sell sold like hotcakes. And at some point they were like bar towels that we use, but it was this value of bar towels where it had a print on one side and a towel on the other. And I remember as part of the stock, so the stock used to come uh uh kind of assorted, and as part of the stock there was this towel or the SL-500. Mercedes. Mercedes. Now in the 90s, the SL-500 was probably the most gorgeous car. Even if you have to look at it today, like 30 years later, it's still such a good-looking car. And I told my dad, can I have this? And I took that towel and I put it in my room on the wall, right? As a motivation that one day I'm gonna have I'm gonna have that. So that's kind of the my earliest childhood.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

And you can see that what I mean, sorry, that's it's innate in you. I mean, anyone can do an MBA, but yeah. Those skills that you learned is it's it's so translatable to where you are right now. Because I see you as a businessman. No, I appreciate I appreciate it now.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Back then you don't appreciate it because you don't know. I appreciate it now because of of of of of it besides besides that, it humbles you. Because if you try selling something to somebody, there's a chance of of rejection. Right? And if we can get through rejection, right, it's unbelievable what you can achieve. And from that earlier stays, I had to get through rejection, a customer just walking past and not giving you the time of day, or the customer that comes to buy, and then there's an opportunity of upselling to them. So you come to buy a dish clot and you sell them uh an enamel mug with it, or you sell them um uh uh a face cloth with it, or sell them a uh a toy for their kid, you know. So it just it just on your feet allows you to do that. Um and I think that I think I think most most kids nowadays are lacking that. They're lacking that. And I think that's why there's so much of issues of self-esteem. Yeah.

unknown 26:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

So I had a question in that. Do you think that that's something that you are neatly born with, or you can go study an MBA and learn that? I've done both. I've done both.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

I traded from the youngest age and I did an MBA. And and and if you think there's a doctor dentist debate, there's also a debate of whether entrepreneurs are born or made. Right. I think if if if it's in your DNA, if you come from a family history of entrepreneurship, I think entrepreneurship becomes second nature. If you don't come from a family of entrepreneurship, it's much more difficult. But there's no such thing as entrepreneurs are born. Because at some point in your life, if you can find something that sparks your interest, that that that you become passionate about and it becomes your purpose, you can become an entrepreneur around that. And you can become successful around that. So I think that if I had that earliest experience without the MBA, or if I did the MBA without that earliest experience, I don't know if if I mean both definitely influence where where I am today and where I'm going. But I think that if I didn't have that, but if I i if I came to a point in life where I'd found my purpose and that purpose drove me, it's then very easy to build a business around that because you're not chasing money, you're chasing outcome. Right? And when you chase outcome, if you do good work or you sell a product that's of value to someone, that product will will will will mobilize, will catalyze, the word will get around. You you'll sell more, you'll be busier with your service. The money will naturally follow. The money is the natural reward to doing something good, to selling a product that someone needs, or doing a service that someone needs. And I think it comes down to ultimately finding that purpose.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

So when your old man at the at you told you as a youngster, five, six year old, sit there and sell, were you reluctant to do it, or to just you just sat and you saw it.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

My my my my earliest memory is that I initiated it. I told him that I want to sell. And then I regretted that. Because I sold well. Okay. And then that became a norm that every holiday you're going to be selling. Right. So I was I had itchy fingers to say, hey, you know what? And I remember so clearly. So it is genetic then. I don't know, I don't know. But I remember so clearly, I have this memory that's so, so, so crystal clear. So I mentioned earlier that my dad uh is a distributor of blankets, and that was a his core business. So at that time, there were two large manufacturers in the country, Waverley and Aranda, Aranda textiles. And I remember very clearly, so the blankets come packed in boxes, in cartons, 20, 25 in a carton. And I remember so clearly, I didn't have a table to sell. So I took one of his boxes, I stuffed it with face clots, and I put product on the top, not realizing that that box is going to be so heavy to take outside because I've stuffed it to create a tabletop, right, that I wasn't able to. So when he saw that happen, he reckoned, you know what? I'll arrange a table for you. So then he arranged a table, and that's how we started. But my my memory is that I initiated that, and my regret is that because I initiated that, he took it as a sign that there's this oak that's interested. Let me get him every Saturday or every holiday to do that. And then I was caught doing that whilst my friends were having uh uh fun out there. Aaron Powell And your siblings? See, they got away because I because I did that. And yeah, so they they they got away uh uh with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

But then you so then you decided, let me I want that Ferrari, I want that SL 500, so being a dentist is the way to do that.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Let me Well, I thought this girl in my class whose father drives a Ferrari. It was a Ferrari Testa Rosa. Okay. Right. And and you could yet a mile away before we came to fetch her. Uh because if you know the sound it makes, so you know the Ferrari is coming. It was so low that even as a teenager you could see over the the the roof of it, right? So so that was I would say inspiration to say, wow, he's got the title, he's got the the big house, he's got the fancy car, he's got all of the. This is the Indian guy. Indian guy, Indian guy, right. And this is 90s Durban, right? Where nowadays you see Porsche and Ferraris everywhere. Right. Back then, to see how it's like a UFO, it's like a rare sighting, right? Um I'm saying, wow, this was got it made, and and and maybe that's what I need to do. Uh so I applied. And you didn't apply for medicine or anything, you just applied for medicine. I applied for dentistry. Yeah, my first choice. I applied at all universities. I got in at um I got in at Pretoria, because Pretoria generally um accepts students in January and the others in Feb, uh early Feb, but my heart was set on Witz for some reason. Why? Um I think Witz had the brand. I I don't know, Witz Witz was just more appealing. When I when I went for the Witz campus, I felt something. When I went to Pretoria, I mean I know you're from Pretoria, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:31

So I studied there.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yeah, okay, you studied there, but I distance myself. I didn't feel it. I didn't feel it. So I accepted Pretoria, waiting for Witz. It never came. Um so so so there were colleagues of mine that got accepted for dentistry at Medusa, which is now SMU, and their families were bringing them to settle down. So they said, you know what, why don't you come with us and see maybe you're on the waiting list at SMU, maybe at Witz. Um So I went and I went to SMU and they uh turned me down to say, you know, you're far down the list. Um so on the day, it was a Thursday that we were getting ready to leave back to Durban. So they had settled the two boys down and the family were getting ready to leave. And I said, let me just call Witz. It was about 9, 9:30 in the morning. Let me call Witz.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

You yourself. Myself. 17-year-old, 18-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Now 18, yeah. Let me call Witz and ask them, like, what's my chances? So I phoned Witz. I said, listen, I'm so-and-so, I've applied for dentistry, I haven't heard anything from you guys. Um, is there any chance? They did, looks, what's your surname, Mansur? You know what? I haven't worked myself, my my my my way to your name as yet. But if you come in the next 15 minutes, I'll offer you the place. Yes, yes, I probably was there in 11 or 12 minutes. Right. I got the place. This was a Thursday. Drove back with these guys to to Durban back on Thursday. Campus started on the Monday. On the sun by Sunday, I had to make arrangements to be back in Joburg to start campus on on Monday and never looked back. If I look at the whole five or five and a half years, when I graduated, after five and a half years, I was one of seven in my class that started in first year and finished in final year. Every other student had repeated a year. So only seven seven students had started first year and finished final year in that in that time period. And I was on a waiting list. And if I didn't make that call, this wouldn't have happened. Yeah. I wouldn't have got the place at at Witts, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Yeah, I was going to say it would have changed your life, but actually you just you would have been at Pretoria and maybe even been a better dentist.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You know. No, you know, you know, they say Witts gives you the edge. Yeah, yeah. Right. So I think I was drawn by the edge. Yeah. So how was dental school?

SPEAKER_01 33:39

You didn't you didn't fail. So clearly you were.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

I didn't fail. No, I didn't fail the year. Yeah. But I failed in between the year.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Right. I mean, I I literally scraped through every year. I wrote subs. I I I I did whatever I had to do to get through the next year.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Moving to Joe Burg from Durban, was that an easy adjustment? Not at all. Not at all.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Where did you stay with your family year? Um Initially I stayed with um I I boarded for about two or three years with a colleague that was a year ahead of me, and he was from Durban as well. Um and then I rented with someone else, and then I kind of got my own place in around fourth year. So it was tough because the first time you're away from home, you you you start appreciating that you've got to get your own clothes washed, you've got to make a plan for your own food, uh, you've got to find your own way to university. There's nothing, you know, it's not, it's not um, it's not all sorted for you. And and and that was kind of the second lessons I learned in life was was was that you've got to man up if you want to survive in the world.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Yeah, man. I would I would never have called Wits. Like when you told me the story about how you made that phone call, I just thought about myself.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

At that age, didn't did you didn't you get a position? Oh, you got a position at Wits. Yeah, no, I got an option.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

I had a place at Witts and UWC, but the point I want to make is that I wouldn't have taken that initiative at that age. I was that it just wasn't in me then to pick up the phone at that.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

And there are certain memories I have so clear, and this was crystal clear. I picked up the phone, I phoned the lady, she says, if you were here in the next 15 minutes, right, I will give you a space. And I can't tell you how I rushed to Witz to get that space. It was like it was like for me a dream come true because it's like these things don't happen.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

It's like Yeah, but it wouldn't have happened if you didn't do it. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

So so that that so that's one of the other lessons I've learned in life is that without initiative, nothing happens. You've got to put yourself forward, right? And you've got to be not afraid of rejection. And I learned the rejection thing from selling at the age of six, seven. Right. So by the time you fast forward ten years when I had to make that phone call, I wasn't afraid of I wasn't afraid of rejection. Right. And I could have been rejected, and that would have been okay.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Right. Because I I would have then ended up at UP. But I wasn't afraid of rejection. I made the call and I went and I presented myself, right? And and and it was a win-win.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

I think that's that might be what sets you apart from others, because you know, professionals, um, doctors, dentists, when we get into we used to doing well in school, getting good marks and getting accepted into everything, right? We're not used to failure. And you, from the age of five or six, had conditioned yourself to become accustomed to failure and learn that it's not a problem. Yeah. Because then the next sale will come.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Yeah. Yeah. So you don't learn it so early on that it's not, it's not a problem. Yeah. You've got to fail over and over and over again to become immune to it, right? Because it's very easy to say, don't take rejection, put your but but you you have to have such self-belief in yourself and your own abilities to be able to overcome rejection and failure. So I think the more you fail, the more you immune you become to it, and the easier it becomes to accept failure. But then you get to a point where it's not just easy to accept failure, but you also find opportunity in failure. Right? So if something hasn't happened this way, maybe there's another way it was meant to happen. Or maybe it's taken me down another path that you never anticipated. So often people stop at failure. They go into a corner, they mope, and they feel sorry for themselves. But the most successful people in the world look at that, learn the lessons from it, and just keep moving forward. The secret to success is that I've learned is that you just got to keep moving forward. It's not an overnight uh right. It's gradual, gradual steps. But the thing is, keep moving. Don't stop or go backwards. Keep moving. However small the step is, just keep moving. And you'll be amazed in time how far you've seen you, you know, how far you've gone and what you m you could achieve or what you've set yourself up to achieve. But the secret is never to stop, never to stop, just to keep moving ahead.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

I'm getting goosebumps listening to the story. Dental school, any any funny stories from dental school you just breezed through, no issues, nobody forced you to go and shave before you could see patients.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

No, no, I know how we had that as well. Oh, many of that. I mean, in dental school they groom you to have your butt and your collar tight and your fits. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a like a military, like you you know. I mean, they lied to us, that's the bottom line. Right? They lied to us to say you're entering such a prestigious profession, right? I I I never felt that when I when I when I got into practice, right? What makes it such a prestigious profession? Oftentimes patients come in telling you the first thing before saying hello is that I hate being here. Right? Before saying hello, how are you? I hate being here. Uh uh That's there's no prestige around that. There's no prestige around that. So I think I think the world that our lecturers and the people that thought us came from was very different to the world that we went into. And I think people don't keep up about what's happening in the world. So they think their landscape or environment is gonna be your landscape or environment. And it's not that the world is fast-paced, the fall is moving, right? Things are happening. Um uh so they're not in touch with our reality, and we may not be in touch with the guys coming out with their reality. Um, so we had a lot of that unshaven, um uh you know, you've got to have your tie, you've got to have your button, you've got to have all of that. And and and then at that point I used to think to myself, like, why is that important? Isn't the skill of training me more important? And I think they failed at training us adequately because I was never a confident dentist when I came out. When I when I when I graduated, I wasn't confident. I mean, I learned a lot of extractions in my comm servers because I did like something like 5,000 extractions, right? Um, but that's not dentistry. That's not dentistry. Um so I think they failed us by focusing on peripheral issues and not the issue at hand. Um I was talking to my kids the other day and and we were talking about uh their exams and and the grades they're getting. And I told them in my fourth year, in my very first maxillofacial surgery exam, and I studied for it, I got 37%. 37%. Right. And I was called out in front of everybody, right, to say, you've got the lowest mark in the class. You're going to repeat this year. Remember, I never repeated any year before that. I wrote subs, I've I failed in the year, but I never repeated the year. I told you earlier that I was one of seven to have graduated without failing a year. In my fourth year, the head of department is telling me, you are going to repeat this year. I had the lowest mark in the class.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Why did they do that? Did they try to motivate you or humiliate you?

SPEAKER_02 40:24

I I think both. And I think it was very the authoritarian way of training. And that was the way. So I was very embarrassed. I mean, I mean, I mean, yo, I was embarrassed.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Uh dental school is small for for people that don't know, it's like 40 in a class. Yeah, 24 in our class. It's like high school almost. 24. 24. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's not like a big class. Everybody knows everybody's names and they know their reputations and this and that.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Yeah. So after the lesson, I went to our office and I said, prof, I'm not gonna fail this year. You tell me what it takes. What do I have to do not to fail this year? She says, if you're serious about not failing, every Thursday morning you will meet me at 9 a.m. and we're gonna do ward rounds, and I'm gonna be asking you questions, and you're gonna be observing what we're doing, right? And if you show me that commitment, right, then I know you're studying hard enough. You have a chance of not failing. Every Thursday morning I was at her office at 9 a.m. I used to walk the corridors with herself and her husband. They were both professors. He was the head of department at the time. She then became the head of department a few years later when he passed. And and I walked with her, watching them place implants, watching them uh uh uh um, you know, do all of these things. And as we're walking, she's asking me, she's questioning me. Um the night before I'm going through my my notes and notes so I know. And and come the end of the year, I passed. Half my class wrote subs. And out of half the class that wrote subs, half failed and were excluded.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

We excluded. Yeah. Right. Well, there we go. I mean there was only one other guy in my class which was a lecturer, and your story now resonates with me because that's exactly what I went through. I was one-on-one with the lecturer. But that being said, do you think that that was the motivator in to get you to do what you needed to do to pass?

SPEAKER_02 42:22

So that was a motivator for me not to fail.

unknown 42:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Because under no circumstances w did I want to be labeled a failure. Why were you doing that bad initially? Let's get it. I I don't know, because I studied I studied I really studied hard for it. I think I think when something doesn't appeal to you, you don't understand it to the level that you should understand it. Right. When when when information makes sense to you, then you thrive with it. So if you look at at my dental degree and you look at my MBA, with MBA, I was getting dean's commendations. I passed the MBA with distinction, I scraped through dental school. Okay, in my final year, I did relatively well, but up to fourth year, fifth, final year was five, it was the sixth year, I did relatively well. But up to fifth year, it was a touch and go. It was a touch and go. Um, so I think the motivator was not to fail and not to be labeled a failure. Right. And that drove me to go to office because I could have taken it at 37%, say I'll study harder for the next one. But because she embarrassed me in front of the entire class, now the entire class has a perception of me as a possible failure. I couldn't allow that to happen. So I went to her. Like how I called the lady adverts, like how I told my dad I want to sell. I went to her and said, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not gonna fail. Tell me what it's gonna take. So by me doing that, I roped her into my situation and I made her part of my solution. Right. So not knowing, not knowing that then, right, for me the only motivator is not to, not, not to. Fail. But if you unpack it, I roped her into my problem and I made a part of my solution. So she had a vested interest in me passing and I passed. Because I was consistently every Thursday morning at 9 a.m. walking with her and her husband through the corridors, and she saw the commitment that this guy is serious about not failing.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Aaron Powell Yeah. As we go through your story, there's this common thread of that you're weaving through it of taking initiative. Because you know, those are three examples you've given.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

So when you finished dental school, you said you you you mentioned you weren't a confident dentist. You had to do commserf. Where did you go? What did you do there?

unknown 44:32

Aaron Powell Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

So when I was in that fourth year, I mean it left a kind of a bitter taste in my mouth because I never enjoyed dentistry. I never enjoyed the experience of dentistry. I never enjoyed the authoritarian type of training. I never I never enjoyed all of that. I always said if I had to ever go and teach students, I'll create a very nurturing environment. Because you want to make them the best version of themselves, right? I don't want them to be a reflection of me. And I think these guys were trying to make us a reflection of them, which was a very different world. Remember, they came from the apartheid days. We are now with this generation that's just coming out of apartheid. It's a very different world. I don't think they realized you can't blame them. You can't blame them. But you know what? Being nice to people is is not something it should come naturally, right? Being able to nurture someone and educate you, so it should be able to come naturally. So you can't, we can't come with a story of not blame because maybe certain things, but certain things that you have to, you have to have you have to want the best for the next person to be able to get the next person to advance.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Exactly. Everyone has that emotional caution to be able to understand what someone else is going to do. Exactly. Not apply your own. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

So I never that that never appealed to me. That that was something I I was totally, I was totally, it was, it, it, it nauseated me. And hence I felt that, you know what, this is not for me. I had a year and a half to go. I said, let me just finish this off. My parents had sacrificed a lot to send me out of town, to pay my rent, to do this, to do that. I can't let them down. Let me finish it off. But I'm gonna go into business because there's absolutely no way I can be in this type of environment. It's just, it's just it's just not me. It's just not how I would like to do things if I was in the in their position. So I so I applied for community service. I got third rounded. Right. And on the Wednesday, before the Monday that I was meant to start, I get my letter to say I've been um I've been uh accepted to go to Ingualezana Hospital. Absolutely did not hear of that place in my life. Pumalanga. That's northern Nattel. Northern Atel next to Mpangeni. Right. Yeah. So I had to Google Inguelezana, where is this? My one consolation was it was in Nattel, so it was an hour and a bit away from home. That was a consolation. Never heard of this place in my life. This was in 2003, June 2003. So anyway, I spoke to my parents. I said, this is the story. They're trying to see if they know anyone in Pangeni that can help me because I got to start work on the Monday. This was Thursday, I'm still in Johannesburg, or this was the Wednesday. Yeah, I'll be able to do it. Thursday, I leave for Durban. Friday, I take a drive to Inguerazana to see the hospital, to see if I can make a plan. Um, Monday I need to report to work. So my dad had a customer there that agreed for me that I could stay with him for a few days whilst I looked for a place. I went, I stayed with him. I then met the store manager of game, game stores. He was just transferred from Peter Marisburg to Mpangeni to run the game store. Uh and someone told me, you know what, he's just moved, he's looking for a roommate. He lives in Richards Bay. Why don't you meet him? So I went to game, I went to meet with him. He says, okay, go come come see the place. I went and saw the place. It looked decent. I said, okay, do you mind if we're roommate? He reckoned, no problem. We shared the rent, we became best of buddies. We used to go and have supper at night. Um so then I lived with him. I we shared that house for that year. Every Monday morning I used to leave home at 6 a.m. I used to be at work by 8. I used to leave on a Friday, uh um, have the weekends at home. So that was probably one of the best years of my life for two reasons. Um the one is that you're earning some money that you never had. Uh it's not as much as the Oaks earn nowadays, but it was something that I never had. And the other reason was the freedom. There was no studying, there was no quotas, there was no yes pass to to answer to, right? It was just me and the world. It was total, total freedom. That's the year I met my wife. So that was like the third thing uh that that uh that that you know made that year stand out. Um so it was literally the best year of my life. And because I had the freedom to think and whatever, and know that I don't enjoy dentistry, I then decided to start a business. So, so I so one day I was at the clinic and there was a computer there, no access to internet, only access to intranet. And so intranet means you can um you can access all the government websites, but not any other website. So now, because my father's in the textile business, because I I I grew up there because my father in blankets, I'm saying, okay, it's an opportunity to supply government. Right. So I start looking at government tenders and I see, okay, the only people that are winning the tenders on blankets are are my father's two manufacturers. So I said, no, I need to start a business and I need to supply government blankets. Right. I looked at the price point. So government buys his gray blankets, right? And I know how much my dad sells the gray blankets for. I see how much, I see the price that they're supplying government. I said, no, no, no, there's a lot of money to be made here. I need to supply government blankets. So I started a company. This is all in your com sensor. This is all my comp cells in 2004, right? You're desperate to get out of the mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. More than that, I met one or two dentists in Mpangeni who tells me the medical aid's up to shit, and you know, dentist is going to the. So that just reinforced me to say, huh, if these oaks are complaining, there's nothing here for me. Ferrari. Yeah, yeah. That Ferrari ain't gonna come this way. Right. So I said, hey, maybe I'm gonna make my money through blankets and buy a Ferrari that way. So so I flew to, I flew to Pretoria, went to National Treasury, tried to understand all of that. The tender came out that year, I applied, right, and we won. And we won. Right, because I knew how to price it, because I knew what these guys were pricing. Not knowing in my naivety that the blanket that government buys from the manufacturer is not the same blanket I have in my mind. It's not those cheap gray blankets, right? So I priced at a point, thinking, oh, that was one of the other learning curves that, right. Anyway, we managed to start a business. I brought in some of my father's uh uh supply of my dad's, and we said, okay, with this business, we're gonna supply the chain stores with textiles, because that's the only thing I knew. I grew up in textiles, right? And we did. We had accounts with Mass Smart, we had accounts with ShopRite, we had accounts with all of these guys. And in that year, I should travel to Joburg to meet with the buyers and travel to Cape Town to meet with ShopRite buyers and learn retail. And the reason, and and one of the motivating factors for that was because my dad was a successful distributor, but he never scaled his business. And I could not, I could, I couldn't understand why he was satisfied with having one business and why scaling wasn't an option for him. So I said, I need to be in a business where I have scale. So the way to get scale is to have a product that's going to be on a thousand shelves in a thousand stores throughout the country, and therefore that that business. So at business, we grew into a sizable uh uh uh business until I lost interest. Because one of my mentors asked me at that time Massmart was doing the deal with Walmart to uh Walmart, yeah, to to buy over Massmart. And I was doing my MBA and my thesis, my MBA thesis was growth strategies of South African retail chains. So as part of the thesis, I had to interview the listed, the CEOs of the top listed retailers. So when I go for my for my uh uh uh supervisor meeting, there's a panel there that needs to approve my topic, and one of the guys tells me, Your topic is very ambitious. So I say, how so? He says, because I'm friends with the chairman of JD Group, and if I'm friends with him, but if I need a meeting with him, I've got to book it so long in advance. And you telling me that you're gonna get all these people, the Whitey Bassons, the Mark Lambertis, all these big names in retail, you're gonna get each of them to give you time of day. Interview them to interview them in their busy schedules, right? And you're gonna have enough data to be able to push through your your your thesis. So I told him with respect all I require from you is to approve my topic, right? You leave the rest to me. This is young and naivety, really speaking, right? I mean, when you're young, you can just shoot from the hip because, right, you don't know what you don't know. Right. So I think they approved my topic to prove me wrong that I'm gonna come with my tail between my legs with another topic, right? They approved my topic. I wrote this wonderful letter to all the CEOs, right? And I got a response, and I got responses back to say, like Whitey Basson, who was a CEO of ShopRite at the time, he says it will be a pleasure to allow you to interview me. Right. You don't need to come to Cape Town. I'm in Johannesburg once a week. My office will set up at your convenience when I'm in Johannesburg for me to interview you. Right. Now there's uh Oak telling me that he can't get with his friend. Yes, Whitey Bassan writing back to you say it'll be a pleasure to Allah. And like that, every other CEO responded in fairly much the same way. So I literally had the top guys in the retail industry giving me a one, one and a half hour interview, right, where I'm asking them critical questions about the internationalization, about the scaling, about all of that, to be able to then get a distinction on my thesis as well, because I had information from the best of the best. Anyway, the thesis showed that our retailers are literally on par with the best in the world. And at that time, Walmart was talking to MassMart. And I asked White T person in our interview, are you not afraid of Walmart entering the market? Not at all. Not at all. I said, how come? He says, well, for years, we've been copying their strategy, we've been being to Africa, they've got to do so much better than us to be able to achieve what we've achieved. So we don't care that they're the largest in the world. We don't care that, right, we care about Africa and we understand Africa. We understand Africa, right? So we're not afraid at all. At that time, Shopright was looking to to get into the Indian market in India. So they were setting up their first supermarket in in Delhi or Mumbai. So he mentioned that to me. So I said, okay, but the Indian market is not the African market. Then we know, therefore, we set up a pilot store in Chatsworth. I reckon, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Indian. You're not an Indian, you're not a Mumbai Indian. Right. Right. Not even a year and that store closed down. So my lesson from that is even the smartest guys make mistakes. So if I miss if I make a mistake, it's uh don't kill yourself over it. Even the smartest guys make mistakes. Walmart opened yesterday. Now now in Clearwater. Yeah, yesterday they launched, right? But this was this interview was in 2009. So Walmart opened how many years later? Yeah. Although, right? So and we look at where ShopRite now. Shopright are the number one retailer in the country. So from a strategic perspective, they were spot on. But from thinking a chat with Indian is the same as an Indian Indian, that they were not. So even the smartest guys make mistakes. So in that discussion, he wasn't afraid of Walmart coming in. In the discussions with the Mass Mart guys, they tell me, okay, Faisal, you've got accounts with us. That's great. How many people are sourcing product for you? I said maybe one or two. He says Walmart has 6,000 agents in China sourcing product for them. 6,000. If you think you can compete, then this business that you started possibly has longevity and sustainability. So I'm scratching my head and saying, wow, wow, there's no ways we can compete. So then chatted to my partners to say, you know what, I've got a fork in the road now. I either use my MBA to build a dental business, or we build this business. Where's this going? And we realized that, you know what, we've got to a point and this is going nowhere, and we decided to part ways, and I started focusing on the dental part. So over the years, every time I tried to get out of the industry, something always brought me back. When I applied for the MBA, you have to go do a Myers-Briggs questionnaire to get you in. And that's mainly like a personality type of questionnaire. And my personality type always bounced from an INTJ to an ENTJ, so an introvert, extrovert type of an entrepreneur. But one of the common professions in that category of personality is the dentistry. So it's prime ministers and presidents and military strategists and the dentist. I'm thinking maybe there's something to it. Maybe I should give it a chance. But also by that time, I had also seen certain gaps in the dentistry where I thought, hey, there could be a business that I could build here. And that's when I decided that let me put my attention to building a chain of dental practices which are branded under Fresher Breath.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Wait, before we go there, because I want to get to Fresher Breath now. While you're doing this MBA and having these meetings and all that stuff, what are you doing are you practicing dentistry?

SPEAKER_02 58:23

Yeah, because if if if I if I go back to saying when we got the government contract, because I underpriced the item, not knowing the quality, because they have to have an SABS abroof blanket. So I really shot myself in the foot. So in that year, that business lost money because and I poured all my earnings on ComService. I borrowed money from my dad. Those partners put in some money, and we were like, I think about two million and under because of the mistake of thinking it was the same product. So because of that, there was no drawing that I could take from the business. So I had no option but to practice dentistry because I had met my wife that year. We got married uh uh uh within that year, we moved back to Johannesburg, and I had no way of of supporting a new wife. So the only way was to kind of locum and do some dental work so I could pay my rent, I could, you know, uh, you know, just just just start off in life. Yeah, where did you do that? Uh so so I I I locumed for a dentist in in Woodmead for a few months, and then his receptionist knew a receptionist in a practice in Brownfontain, who said they're looking for a dentist. I liked the setup when I and I that's where I started. So after a few years I bought in and then and then that that's kind of where it started from. You do the MBA while you're doing all the stuff. So I was doing the MBA. So what I used to do is to book patients Monday, Wednesday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, and I used to take, I used to take Tuesday, Thursday off to do to focus on MBA. So there oftentimes between patients, I'm finalizing assignments and you know all of those type of things, stealing time wherever I can just to do MBA work. So I yeah, so I kind of did it. And then obviously there's lectures after hours. So I did it concurrently. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

Because they say that the MBA is a is a degree that like um ends relationships. No, no, it does.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

When I went for my interview, that's what they use the exact same words. Yeah. They asked me how long have I been married, how strong is my marriage, right? The the MBA, the MBA, people get divorced doing an MBA. So as soon as that interview finished, I phoned my wife and I said, listen to me, apparently people get divorced doing an MBA. So what she did was, she had just uh started a position at InvestTech, so she applied to the Investtech if they would sponsor her to do something called the postgraduate diploma or PDM. So the only difference between MBA and a PDM is the content is the same, but I do the thesis at the end to get the master's, and there's no thesis in this. So Investtech offered her that sponsorship, so then she and I were on campus at the same time. Wow, it sounds like a business PR.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

I thought it was just I thought it was just a in case you divorce, at least she sorted.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:07

No, no, so to prevent getting to a situation of divorce, she didn't know, but I'm gonna study with you. So so she and and that and that was awesome because often we had the same lecturers, uh right, and we're doing similar, similar assignments. So we actually worked together in those two years, whilst I did the MBA and she did the PDM, but it took a lot out of her to say, hey, let me not sit back, let me, let me, um, let me uh support him in this way. And that's why in that other podcast, I said it's the most the uh success also rests on on who your partner is. Just from this example, you can see how she thought. She could have said, oh no, don't do it. You know, that could have been an option as well. But she says, no, if he's gonna do it, my let me support him and let me do this. And and and and and that's what and that's that's very smart because I I think she thought about uh And I didn't think about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

She thought Yeah, she thought about it. Yeah, yeah, she thought about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:03

How did you meet her, by the way? You said you met her in ComSA. That's another story.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

There's no Tinder though.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

Oh, if I if I if I oh if I share that story, I must try not to get too in-depth because we'll fill in the right. But it's important because that's also a that's also a story for the agents, eh?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:24

I'll I'll give you some highlights. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

I think it's important for us to know because she's always at your event. She's very supportive right now of the side. She's by my side for your position.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:36

She's by my side through everything. So so I think. You know, back back in the day, Durban, Durban was popular for the Gunston 500. It's a horse race. No, no, it's the surfing company. The surfing competition. Because Durban is no doubt the warmest place to be in winter. Right. So for youngsters, that's like a social, that's like on another level, right? Because it's in the June, July holidays, you got people from all over the country coming to Durban, right? Uh for Gunston 500. No one's watching the surfing, right? Everyone's socializing because I mean there's stalls and there's food and there's a vibe and you know, all of those type of things.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

Everybody's surfing, as my uncle would put it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But not surfing. They're browsing. Right. So I see this, I see this girl, and and and I knew who she was. And and I and I ask a friend with me that, you know what, do you know her? He said, I know her very well. I know her brother quite well. I say, can you get me a number?

unknown 1:03:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:39

You guys were at Milky Lane and the project. Right uh right outside murky lane. Right outside murky lane. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spot on right outside murky lane. Right. I like to ride. Actually, right outside the wompy. So that you're like, lane thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

I mean, but murky lane thing. How did Yak know you were at Murky Lane?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

That that was that was that was the the hangout, right? It's way it's so it was murky lane, it was Wumpy, it was Joe Cool's, which is a popular club back in the day. It I mean, uh really it was it was a vibe. It was just good, it's like good memories growing up, right? It was awesome memories growing up. So ask him, like, you know what, do you know her? Can you like get me a number? Um, you know, some time went, I started my com service, I then said, okay, but I asked you for the number like last year already, like what's happening? You can know. Because, you know, like like I don't know how to tell you this, but she just got engaged last week or the week before to be married. I said, Oh, are you serious? Are you serious? Yeah. I said, but if you gave me the number last year, right. You didn't take initiative. You didn't take initiative, right? Um, I said, okay, you know what? I mean, it is what it is now. It is what it is. Um Then I got into my comp service and and all of that. And um uh so comp service started in July, 1st of July. So so after a couple months, I phoned him again and I said, cuz, just get me the number. Right. Oh, wow, still I said, get me the number, get me the number. Right. He says, okay, here's the number, but I'm telling you. Oh, he says, no, before that, can I ask her? Right. So he asked her Goodman. Right. Yeah, yeah. He asked her, he phoned me back, he says, you know what? She says that no, there's no, there's no it's like it's like no, there's no chance. Right, there's no chance. Um I said, okay, okay, but but still give me the number. So in 2004, it was like close to Valentine's Day. So I said, you know what? I got nothing to lose here. I said, let me send her some flowers. But I didn't know where she I didn't know where she lived. So I sent it to her dad's office. Wow. Now I didn't know and I got that address because her dad at the time had a chain of clothing stores and there was a clothing store in Richards Bay Shopping Center. So one day my roommate and I went to the Neanders to have supper and we're walking through the shopping center after hours and I see the number on the door in case of emergency head office with the dress. I swear to God, this is I'm I'm sharing you guys for better personal, this is how it happens. I wish you was here too. So I send the flowers I it was uh a a dozen of roses that it cost me 240 bucks because Valentine's Day so the there's a premium. This is 20 20 odd years ago we celebrated our 20th anniversary earlier this year. So this was 21 years ago right and I got these flowers to live it just hoping I got nothing to lose hoping for the for the best I don't know what I was hoping I must be honest right anyway nothing happened. But because he gave me the number I called her and I called her and I said you know what there's no harm in getting to know each other. I understand that that that that you fixed or you engaged to be married and there's no harm in getting to know each other and who knows if that doesn't work out I'm telling you when you're young you're naive I'm I wouldn't I wouldn't advise anyone to do the the the naive things that that that I did. I said but you've got nothing to lose the only person that has something to lose is me and I'm willing to take that risk. So we started I won't say started talking she also was very clear, crystal clear to say listen, we actually the boys party is coming like next weekend and and it's it's now we're we're now working on logistics, right? So it was nice talking to you and and I wish you all the best, right? And I was disappointed because I think every initiative whether it's business or whatever, I mean I put my best foot forward right, hoping for the best.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:02

That's the first time I'm hearing that you were ever disappointed.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:04

Because I mean the undertone of your life is that I was disappoint I was genuinely I was genuinely disappointed to the extent where my roommate came home one evening and I was I was sleeping and asked me what's wrong. I said you know this has happened and he laughed at me says dude life goes on the Maddisburg guy they competition and the next day I I I go to my room I see there's a plastic packet with her father's like store branding under my bed like teasing me to say you know right and I was okay okay and I'm I'm disappointed because in my heart I felt that this is this is the one for me right and I never felt that way before and the reality of it is that she's saying nobody like the game is like there's no chance here the we're working out the logistics of the wedding and all of that. So I left it. I said okay still I say okay I understand what you're saying but if something changes call me first of it so now that I'm in that phase now this is around this is around March 2004. Right in April so the the 27th is a holiday right so I was in so i I I I think it was a long weekend it was either a a Friday or a Monday so I was I was I was in I was in Durbs Wednesday as well. Yeah it was right um I get this S I get this this this SMS from her to say listen if you're willing to meet me for that cup of coffee um I'm open to it. Right. But there's no pressure there's the if if you know I I I know when we spoke like a few months ago um I I blew you off but if you're open to it then then then I'm open to it as well but if you're not then I can totally understand. I reckon hell yes of course I'm open to it. I mean dude right so I met um we met in Musgrave Center right uh there's a place called Circus Circus right we met there and and now I want to know how come? Right because just a few months ago like there's no chance and and how come now this has happened so as I said if if if something happens then give me a call and something happened and and she gave me a call. And that was like sure like like like you can't believe that that this situation could transpire. So we started talking and now I had purpose to come every weekend. Now I couldn't wait to come every weekend back back to Durban and and and we spent weekends together and got to know each other and then I met the parents and all of that and that was April that was April 2004 and Feb 2005 we got married. And and this year Feb we celebrated our 20th anniversary.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:09

Congratulations thank you there's a product of your of your relationship sitting behind the camera.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:15

I just wanted to say well first of all congratulations but also there's an undertone of perseverance throughout the whole life talking to you guys I'm seeing that as well because I would have given up like the way the questions have come from you guys and I mean these are verbatim questions, these are off the cuff questions, right? Is allowing me to see now that there is this undertone. And I think when you're in a situation you don't see it but I'm starting to realize it now as we're speaking that in everything that I spoke about there's a common element here.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:45

There's a common element here yeah so we often joke with our guests after we go off camera that these sessions are like a therapy session almost because you don't realize all these things you don't realize these things yeah yeah yeah but well no but thanks for sharing that story with us.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:58

Hopefully it doesn't get vetoed So my kids so my kids don't know the full story now now one of them do. Right. There we go.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:03

Exclusive you have it here kiddos yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and then when you when you met the father in law he didn't say to you hey are you the guy that sent flowers to my head office?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:11

You called that I asked about my flowers to I pay 240 bucks for it. Right. So so you just laughed I still find it funny you remember the exact amount you spent because I know it was a premium at the time. Right, yeah it is a premium so so so when I sent the flowers I obviously I had to write a note on the flowers that my wife still has right and it says and on a note it says however much I try to get hold of you, I just can't. So please call me and I put my number there. Right. She never called me a good story. Right. But but when I ask my father yes and then she tells me he brought it home and he says someone brought this someone someone sent this for you like he was upset someone sent this for you. And I don't expect him if someone sends that to my office or my daughter's I mean I'll flip as well right and she's telling but I don't know who he is I don't know who he is right uh but now I know what happened to my flowers. It never get thrown in the bin it actually did go go home and and her father did ask her who's this for so yeah when I met the father she had to brief me and bought me a new jersey and said okay you're gonna wear this and he's probably gonna ask you these questions so I met him and and all he wanted to know is like whether I have a plan in life and whether his daughter could be taken care of. I mean I think that's reasonable for any father I'll probably do the same, right? And he wanted to know whether, yeah, what's my plan? Whether whether I whether whether I think I'm gonna be a free rider or whether I'm gonna make my own way in life. And I think he realized that my plan is to make my own way in life. And I think he was then comfortable to to to to to tell her, you know what, go ahead and then how families met and they were comfortable with each other. And yeah and then a few months later we were married.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:01

Well 20 years later well done for persevering well done the 240 was well spent my best investment the best investment was best investment was 240 Rand. Yeah well done okay so tell us about Fresh of Brett now.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:14

Yeah so then when I decided to um to then follow the dental path I said okay if I have some retail experience and my my my my ambition in life was always to scale something can I scale a dental business? Because no one really has been able to do that. You've got like the corporates that have a foot in it but no one independently has been able to do that. And then I started that and you know got to about eight practices before COVID. And when COVID happened eight practices my goal was at the end of 2019 2020 to be at 10 because that becomes like a nice number and I mean it took years to get to that to that point and COVID happened. And when COVID happened demographics changed and like our one practice at Fitz University Witz was closed for two years. So all those patients have always graduated. So when we started up again we actually started from zero. So I was in a situation where I'm starting most practices back from zero because things had changed. Then the corporates were still on the hybrid model so even those had changed. So I had to scale back a few um and now I'm down to four but in that time it was time it was very much reflection time. Because before COVID the plan that I had to build fresher breath and what I thought would allow me to achieve what I want to achieve, I realized in that time that that's not the future that I actually want because there's no competitive edge that I'm building in in that brand. Because another Oka depot pockets can create another brand and set up more practices. What's unique about me? So if you look at like chicken outlets, you go to Nando's because you like the taste but then if you want fried chicken you'll go to KFC or you go to chicken liquor because you like that taste. So that's their secret source that's their product. So their business is built on their product how do I build a business built on on my service? Not service about how you treat patients but about the care that they receive because if I'm gonna do what everyone else is doing, what makes me different from them? And if nothing makes me different from them what's going to allow me to scale why will you want to come on as a franchisee of my concept if you can do the same thing yourself. Right? And and that got me thinking that may seem quite obvious but it's not obvious when you're in the situation you think you've built all these systems and processes and that's your business. And in that time I I I reached out to people all over the world just trying to understand the bigger picture in the dentistry. And I was lucky enough to be able to to to to find people that could show me that light. But the catalyst to that came in 2015 when my daughter one of my daughters was born with a lip tie and a tongue tie and the PEED asked me to to sort the problem out because I'm a dentist and I didn't know how to. So when I started researching how to fix that problem I realized there's going to be an effect on the the way her face grows if I don't if I don't release the tongue tie. But in that research I came across something called myobrace right whose philosophy was that you can change problems before it manifests, before the teeth become crooked. And we were trained that it's genetic to have crooked teeth and if it's genetic to have crooked teeth you have to wait until your permanent dentition to put braces. And this is saying the exact opposite that it's not genetic, it's environmental and if you get in early enough you can prevent this but but my whole and uh intention was to find a solution for my daughter. So in getting involved in the fresher breath in in the in the myobrace concept and business and all of that, I learned about airway and myofunction.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:02

Wait, wait, hold on, hold on you fast forwarded this so you I fast forwarded because I gave a lot of the previous webinar but you were looking you were looking at a solution for your your child. For my child my children then you end up being in the business. How does that happen?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:14

So so when I reached out to them they told so I reached out to them to find out is if there's any myest practitioners in South Africa that I could take her to sort her out. To sort her out and they said no there isn't we've tried to enter the market at least three or four times and every time we've tried we've failed. So because of that reason there's no mybreast practitioners in South Africa. And they were they were based in Australia. Yeah the head office is in Australia. So when my daughter was six months old I told my wife let's make a trip to Australia as a holiday but I want to go and meet these guys because I need to find a solution. So I set a meeting with them I said I want to spend some time in your clinics. So again not for business. Not for business to find a solution for my daughter because from my research I could see that if her tongue doesn't fit in a palate because of the tongue tie, her palate is going to be narrowed, she's gonna have crowded teeth but her face is not going to grow to its genetic potential. So I flew to Australia. She was six months old at the time and I spent a day or two days with MayaBrace. They allowed me to spend time in the clinics I had an opportunity of talking to patients and opportunity of talking to the doctors in those clinics asking them is this for real? asking patients like are you seeing benefit? Getting that like verbatim feedback from patients and and the staff and all of those type of things then I had a end-of-day meeting with with uh Dr. Chris Farrell who founded Myobrace who developed myobrace um and he says okay um listen we we don't have anyone in South Africa I said okay why don't I be your person? So he tells me the same thing we've we've tried a few times and and it hasn't worked so South Africa is not for us. I said give me an opportunity let me try and make it work. So he says okay but you're a dentist four companies who are in the game they have customers they have reps on the road right if they couldn't make it work how are you gonna make it work how are you going to make it work here comes this common thread again go on so it doesn't sound like deja vu so I told him give me a chance if I fail then give up on South Africa but you got nothing to lose if you give me a chance if I succeed you've got a foot in Africa. Right he says okay we're having our first MIBRE summit in the Netherlands in November if I see you in the Netherlands I'll give you my answer.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

Okay. Right. Makes sense to me because you went there for your daughter's daughter.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:50

So still I haven't come back with a solution but now I'm saying let me let me introduce my brain to into the market he says if I see you in the Netherlands in November I'll give you my answer. So we have a lovely trip in Australia we come back now I'm stressing about Netherlands. Anyway I I I I I I make it to Netherlands with a colleague of mine Dr. Adams right um I I met him a few months earlier I said Mo I just got back from Australia about this concept I went there for my daughter just have a look and tell me what you think he phones me at Faisal this is the missing link. I've been doing orthodontics for over 30 years and this is what I've I've been missing. No you must go I said okay Mo I'll go but don't you want to come with me? He says okay I'll join you with pleasure so he and I went to Australia I'm in the middle of to Netherlands yeah uh it's cold in November like two degrees uh I'm sitting the lecture and I get called out in the middle of a lecture right get called downstairs to the European CEO's office with Chris Farrell the founder is sitting there she's sitting there it's like it's like an exam right we're sitting across the table okay we've reviewed your your request and we've decided that we'll give you a chance we'll give you a chance under one condition you take a hundred mayobrace with you back to South Africa purchase purchase I'm like shit you know what I this is not what I bargain for there's a financial there's a big financial commitment to buy a hundred Mayobrace appliances I don't know the business I don't have one customer right I said okay I said okay on one condition you choose the fastest sellers don't give me a cross choose the fastest sellers so Chris Farrell said I'll personally choose the 100 for you I said no problem show I go back to my lecture I think my pa my face is pale Dr. Adams asking me Faisal what happened what happened I see you're not looking yourself anymore I explained to him puts his hand on me and says don't stress we'll we'll we'll make a plan we'll we'll find a solution so anyway I put 50 appliances in my luggage 50 in his luggage and we And the money where to get the money isn't that why you went pale because I mean you you're a guy that's stressed over 240 rands tell me come on I didn't stress out for 40 I was just upset that you know what I mean you know what I mean because the next day the prices dropped yeah but you didn't go there planning to spend money.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:17

No no no no no not at all not at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:19

That's why you went pale where'd you get it from so I then go onto my internet banking I look at my different practices I start moving money from this practice to that practice into my credit card right to be able to swipe to pay for it and then when I come back figure out how to pay back those practices the money. So that's what I did. Yeah going to my internet because I'm there now I I can't go to Australia. I can't go to the Netherlands talking the big talk let me distribute now they want me to buy a hundred appliances and I and I say oh no I can't I have to I have to go with the flow because it's like when Witz called you and said if you can be a so I can't I I have to commit with good faith and figure it out some other way. So now in the lecture on my internet banking shifting money over from each practice going to overdraft to get money into my credit card so that I could and I did that and we came back and whatever we learned at the course, Dr. Adams put a course together and a few months later we marketed the first MyBrest course that was November 2017 and um Oh Faisal did you at least get your daughter sorted out that's I'm coming to go so we marketed this course and we surprisingly got 15 dentists that attended the course 15 dentists. And we were surprised that out of those 15 dentists there's a fair amount that had started myobrays when the other guys introduced it. And because then there was no support they stopped but they saw it work when they used it so they were our first customers right and we were able to sell those hundred appliances and order more and that's how the business started. So for my daughter then when we looked at the liptan tongue tie at that time this was now 10 years ago the thinking was that you either nip the tongue tie before six months or after six years. So I then waited when she turned six and then we released the tongue tie lip tie and then I started on myobrace. So she's now 10 so she's in a late mixed and tissue and she's on myobrass and and things are developing quite nicely for her. But obviously I use it on my older kids' way it worked quite nicely. And that's how that business started as well. But in that business I got to learn about away and myofunction and the effect of breathing on craniofacial growth and development and that's where this guy comes in because this guy shows us the homunculus for the homunculus the sensory homunculus that the body will prioritize breathing because it's it has to do with survival over every other function. So if you look at the proportion of the nose and the mouth you will say why is the nose not big because that's for breathing. But if the nose is blocked it's your mouth that has to function right so it prioritizes mouth breathing to get you to survive because everything about survival depends on the next breath. So you have to have you have to be able to open your mouth but if you open your mouth the muscles pattern for an open mouth you your lips become hypotonic your muscles of facial expression compensate to keep the mouth open and then you become a chronic mouth breather. So if you open your mouth you'll naturally take air in through your mouth right and when that happens because the tongue is low the maxilla collapses your teeth crowd and your facial growth becomes downwards and backwards. So when you understand that and you understand that the body prioritizes survival instincts over every other function and prioritizes the next breath over everything else, you realize how important the mouth is it's not just about teeth and gums right it's about the stomatognetic system. And with that thinking I began pivoting fresher breath towards a business that doesn't fix teeth and gums there's a much bigger picture much bigger health picture that that um that if we can get right, you can enhance a person's overall health and fast track that just a few weeks ago I launched the TMG and Sleep Clinic because that fits into this as well so now if I look at a patient's life stage at any stage of life that a patient can come to us, we'll be able to fix something, but because of our knowledge of that life stage we can prevent issues early on and I've got myobras solution and many other solutions that we're gonna release in the next couple months to create this this unique a treatment edge that will allow me to build the scale that I always wanted to build.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:57

Okay. So like in the MBA world I'll call that The USP, the unique selling points.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:02

Or the secret source. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's taken me literally twenty years to develop the secret source.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:08

What a fantastic story, man. I mean, and 10 years later from the Maya Brace, I mean things are still going well there.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:13

Well, 10 years later, we're now their largest growing territory to the extent where every new innovation they've they've they've they've vet with us first before the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:22

And Chris knows you now. You're the guy who's a big thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, he wants to meet me in Dubai at the end of Jan. Chris Farrell. Chris Farrell at the Middle East Summit. Uh uh. Right. Because he wants me to take over one of those territories. So I'm going to meet him to see now how how you know how we can do that. So they're giving us more territory because they're seeing what we're doing. Um we supply like and support dentists in seven African countries. Wow. Right. Um, all from something that people laughed at when we introduced it uh almost everyone. Or did they laugh? Oh, oh, crazy. They people ridiculed what we were doing like you couldn't believe. Even uh professionals, I might add. Professionals. People that used to smile and shake my hands started looking the other way. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:04

It was nasty. But uh Why? You know, this is the same way the uh the liners industry disrupted certain specialities.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:12

No, I mean can you unpack that for the audience, that type of thing?

SPEAKER_02 1:29:15

You know, I don't know why. And for for me, I I thought I'm doing a good thing because when I took the Hippocratic oath, it was about doing no harm and doing what's in the best interest of my patient. So I believe my UBRES fulfills that because we can prevent crooked teeth, I'm doing no harm and doing what's in the best interest of my patient. So I felt by opening it up to everybody else, everyone else will have the option to do no harm. But you realize people don't think that way. People pay lip service to certain things, but when there's the first sign of a threat to something, people react in very different ways. And one of the ways I thought was to say, hey, yes, let's work together, let's do this. And the ex exact opposite happened.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:58

Um, to the point where they ridiculed every opportunity of reporting us to a health professional counsel or the information regulator, every and any opportunity to not give Mayo Brace airtime is what they they they they they push. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It's fascinating. You never think of these things, eh, when you're bringing in something. Oh, because you do things in good faith. You do things in good faith. You you you you have you have a you you you have the best of intentions that others will reciprocate to that best. It doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:29

And I learned that the hard way. And uh I mean I was aware of when you know you were bringing that in. And um the the the disproportionate reaction to be preventative with allowing the product, it wasn't-I mean, MyroBrace essentially is an appliance, right? That someone uses. There are people who are unqualified that are using Botox that don't get reported, or like, you know, doing microneedling and things like that. So the risk factor is so low. I know. But yet the MyBrace you can do no harm. Exactly. But the speciality saw fit that you go, because it was they were so threatened by it, decided to go and report it as if it could somehow, you know, be so disruptive or life-threatening to the patient.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:14

One of the early wake-up calls when I launched MyBrace is in 2017, we exhibited at the Sada Congress in Pretoria. It's a very lovely conference, right? And that was the first year we won the Industry Award for Innovation. Now, the Industry Award is an award that's voted for by our colleagues. And and we had won the very first industry, Sada Industry Award for Innovation. And we had a lovely display, uh a lovely exhibition, and we had uh the European CEO uh and one of her uh team members attend, and I, you know, I told her to go up and receive the award on our on our behalf. And you think everything is going our way? We're getting this exposure, we've got this lovely exhibition, there's so many people coming. One colleague one colleague walks past and she tells us, God will curse you for what you're doing. God will curse you for what you're doing. And I say, Is God gonna curse me for teaching children how to breathe properly?

SPEAKER_03 1:32:15

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:16

If God's gonna curse me, bring it on. I had no idea. Bring it on. God will curse you for what you're doing. What am I doing? What am I doing? Trying to be preventative, trying to get your kid to breathe better, trying to get your kid's face to grow better. If God's gonna curse me for that, yes, there's that. One of my earliest wake-up callers, hey, hey, hey, things are not as promising as I thought it would be, because if someone can openly say that in front of so many other people, there's something brewing, and over the years, just more and more of that manifested itself.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:51

The the the I think the pinnacle was in November last year I was invited to University of Western Cape on the invitation of the dean to address his faculty on my UBRES. And as soon as that advert went out or that email went out, there were two colleagues that called him and tried to lobby him for those weeks on cancelling the lecture. Ultimately the lecture went on, but the day I flew to Cape Town to have that lecture, these two colleagues came to his office, thought he was there, but I was sitting in his office, popped their heads in high, and no one from that department attended that lecture. So it's not just it's not just ostracizing right, it's preventing preventing So is this a controversial treatment? Not at all. How can it be controversial? Can teaching your child to breathe better be controversial?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:44

No, I don't know. I mean, if there's people that are trying to It's only controversial how it hurts your bank account. They're trying that hard to prevent you from the internet.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:49

It's only controversial. It's a it's a It's a disruptor, let's just be honest. I mean, if if it did the you know, if we were to parallel it, yeah. What happens what happened to the taxi association when when Uber or the Balter, any of those services came? They are better for the industry, provided it is obviously done within regulation.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:09

But you're taking away from the taxi industry. Yeah. And the only way that those guys could retaliate was to be aggressive and to to to do things.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:19

But what is uh what if adoption is so much more of a better strategy? If you say, hey, let's learn, if there is a space, let's let's work together. That would be much better. Conciliation, camaraderie, working together is always the better way to go than than than than being offensive.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:37

Okay, I get you. I've read enough between the lines here. So I mean, are any of your initial detractors now changing their mind?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:43

A fair amount. A fair amount if you go to their websites, they have big pages dedicated to myobrace, right. But they're not big myobras users.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:51

So why why do you think that's happening?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:53

But this is fascinating, yeah. Very fascinating. Uh you know, you don't think of these things when you don't. Because you don't think you do things in good faith.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:59

Yeah, but you learn from them also. But you learn, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:02

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:02

And then the TMJ clinic, you mentioned that briefly. So when you learn about airway and you learn about myofunction and you learn about craniofacial growth and development, and you f and you see the cause and effect, you then realize that the TMJ issue is also a potentially at its source an airway issue. Okay. Right. And if you understand that, then you'll be able to rehabilitate TMJs as well. And I'm saying the word rehabilitate because in the past couple of months I've attended many workshops and conferences from the other specialities, understanding their view and their take on TMJ, and they're of the opinion that TMJs cannot be rehabilitated. It can only be managed. And we're of the view that it can be rehabilitated and it can happen. So we partnered with the TMJ and Sleep Therapy Center, it's a global network of 85 centers in nine countries, and it's been operating for the last 40, 45 years with evidence-based, and there's evidence from 85 centers doing this work every day that a temporomandibular joint can be rehabilitated. So now that seems to be my disruptor going forward. Because 10 years ago, people didn't believe that Away and myofunction, if corrected, can prevent maleclusion. Now we're in seven countries, gonna be taking over the eighth country soon. Um and now those that believe that TMJs can't be rehabilitated will get to see that TMJs fairly much can be rehabilitated, and we're gonna show them how. So if if they take the same stance that we faced earlier on, then they'll probably experience the same result, uh, right. But if they open-minded and say, hey, if we're of the opinion that it can't be rehabilitated, and here's a guy showing us that it can, if we can learn from each other for the betterment of our of our profession and our patients, then with pleasure, we'll share learnings and everything because ultimately the more people benefit, the more I can say I fulfilled my Hippocratic oath of doing no harm and doing the best in my patients and be able to allow others to do that as well. So are you s foreseeing that there might be detractors here also with this new initiative? I I don't I don't foresee it being to the level that I've experienced before. But I think in everything you do where there's some sort of disruption, there'll always be some people resistant to change.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:20

Right. There'll be some people open, there'll be a lot that are stuck in the middle, and there'll be some resistance. So I think that'll always happen. So I hope it doesn't, because everything we do, we look to build good relationships, we look for the best in everything, uh, and we look to build the best outcomes. But we also know that if you're going to challenge from a power of weakness, then we also know how to reciprocate.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:47

Right. But that's not the that's not what the the the the preference is to work together. The preference is comaradery, the preferences.

unknown 1:37:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:55

Last professional question. What's it like? Uh what what does this director or vice chair of Sada, South African Dental Association, do? It just sounds fancy, to be honest. It sounds fancy, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:05

What do you do? Well, basically you step in in the place of the chair, or potentially you are chair in waiting if if your board votes you in when that opportunity arises. But it's more to support the chair in decision-making.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:18

And what does Sada do? You know, for the listeners, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:20

So Sada is the South African Dental Association, so it's the largest representative association of dentists in the country. So Sada represents over 90% of dentists in the country. And Sada lobbies on behalf of dentists, engages with third-party funders, engages with government on policy. Um Sada is kind of the body, the umbrella body that kind of brings dentists together for a common goal and vision of growing the profession and keeping the profession uh safe and keeping the profession uh sustainable.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:50

Do you remember back in the day, some toothpaste used to say SADA approved and then you're not sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Still.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:55

Still to this day. Yeah, yeah. So you do get some products that Sada endorses and all of those type of things. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:01

All right. It is does sound fancy, but it's an interesting position. I mean, in important position to be in. Faser, what do you do for fun, man? Like be it sounds like you're always working in and trying to disrupt things. Have you named this homunculus? You've given him a name.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:14

No, I just call him homunculus, hey. Yeah, I think he's gonna be my homie. So notice also that he has a forward head posture, right? And a forward head posture is a direct correlation of an airway issue. The body will compensate for posture, and forward head posture is to open up the airway so you'll plunge your head forward uh to get air in. So so this guy is in sympathetic stress, hey?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:37

Yeah, but FaZe are you still talking shop now? What do you do for fun? That was the question.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:41

Well, maybe that's fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:44

Work fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:45

You know, I'm having fun. Work is fun. I I think they're still there. I mean, I have a fair amount of fun. It's not all work. I mean, when I'm at work, I work, and when I'm at home, I'm at home. You don't go to surfing competitions anymore? I don't need to. I I think fun is spending time with my family. I mean, that's fun. That that that's the most fun I have. How many kids and four kids, yeah. And I think just spending time with them and doing things with them. I think I think that's that that that's that's my fun. And we have fun. We have a lot of fun. It's not that we don't. But when I'm at work, I'm at work. I mean, serious, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:16

Uh who mentors you? Who Who keeps you grounded? Who do you go to for advice? Aaron Powell You know, I think the experiences over years has kind of grounded me to an extent. But I've got people that I draw on for advice professionally. Um I've got people all over the world that I've learned over from the last couple of years that uh that I that I uh call on. And this is literally people on every continent. I mean I mean there are days where if I'm speaking to people in the East, those have to be early morning calls. And I'm speaking to people in the West, those are late evening night calls. And I'm speaking to people in Europe, those are how's your sleep? Do you sleep okay? Yeah, I sleep. Fantastic. I sleep fantastic. Um so I got people all over the world professionally. Business-wise, I mean I've made friends along the way, um, some of those listed CEOs that have become my friends, so I got them to call on.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:07

Have you saved any of those letters that you sent uh to those CEOs inviting them?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:12

That's gold, eh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've even got the what's the essay message that I sent to my wife in those early days. Yeah. I said, Well, if I ever write a book, that's gonna be all.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:20

Uh people believe that this is And the note of the the closed. She's got the note.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:24

She's got that note. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:26

She's still got that note. Yeah. That that's so awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:28

In fact, she pulled it out this year because we celebrate our tweeted anniversary. So she pulled it out this year.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:32

I mean, you must anonymize that note and send us a photo. Just take your number. I'm gonna ask her. And then we post it. You know, when when we release this episode. I'm gonna ask her when we go back. Yeah. Before we close, we always ask our guests this question. Yeah. And because you've got four kids, I can put it in that context. Um if your kids come to you and say to your dad, I'm I'm thinking of studying dentistry and becoming a dentist, do you have any advice for me? What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:58

Yeah. You know, I actually spoke about this in the last couple of days as well. So every professional that I've asked about their professional, about their profession, whether it's lawyers, accountants, engineers, they all told me that they want to encourage their kids to go into a profession. And there was a point where I would have done the same. Right. But given the space that I'm in now, and knowing where I'm going, and knowing how receptive the patients and the industry is becoming to where I'm going, I think that all my kids should be dentist, to be honest. Right. But I think from all of them, only one would probably work. My eldest, her heart from the earliest age has been to be a paediatrician, right? My third daughter wants to be a soccer player and a pilot and a ballerina, right? And my son, uh he talks about being a dentist, but I don't know. He he likes pottery as a hobby, right? He likes planting and farming as a hobby. So if that's what he loves, then that's what he must become, right? Because you can you can create a business out of everything that you love, as long as you love it. If you work, wake up every morning with a purpose, then that's not work. That's loving what you're doing. You never have to work a day in your life, right? So ultimately, whatever they opt to do, as long as it there's a fire in their soul to do that to the best of their ability, I promise you they make money from it. Even if you want to run a flea market, they can become a millionaire running a flea market if that's their passion. So I think one of my kids might, right? I'd I'd love all two because of where we're going in the space we're in. But it all comes down to what drives them and what makes them happy. And once they find that, then I can very easily show them and teach them and mentor them on how to build a business, uh, a scalable business around it and how to how to make a reasonable living out of it. Um but I think from them it has to be the passion. That passion has to come, and then I can show them how to build a business.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:13

Aaron Powell And I'm sure that entrepreneurial gene is passed on.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:17

You know, I I think it has because they have taken many initiatives over the years to do this, to sell, to do that, to create that. Um I mean, my two elder daughters were a few years ago featured as one of um uh Mandela, uh when it comes to that Mandela around his birthday on News 24, young Mandelas, your features as as young Mandelas because of the philanthropic work that they've been doing through school out of their own initiative.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:43

Out of their own initiative. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think if if if if if that's come out of their own initiative, it all comes down to your own initiative. You've got to, you've got to take that step. And if they take those steps, there's no way there's no reason for the world to shut up.

unknown 1:44:58

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:58

So you're a proud dad. Yeah. I'm proud. Very proud. Are they proud of you? Do they tell you that? I hope so. I've got a five-year-old daughter, so I don't know how it goes as they get older.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:07

Aaron Powell Must ask them. They probably think this oak is always talking to people all over the world, huh? Fighting with people, talking about breathing. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what they think.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:16

I always get this perception that everybody everybody's parents embarrass them somehow. So I'm sure you also do that somewhere along the line.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:21

I don't know. I don't know. I'm I'm super proud of them. I think they cut their heads. Uh I think they cut their heads in the in the right place. I think my two elder daughters are I mean, they're up at 4.30 to go to Madresa because they by hearting the Quran. Right. So every day their return their routine is 4.30 in the morning. Um so their day starts at 4.30, the day ends at at 8.9 in the evening. So they have a full day at school, then they've got to learn for the next day. So I think I think I think they've got they've got their priorities in order. So I think, yeah, if you have that, it's already the ticket to the game. And if you have discipline from a young age, like just waking up at 4.30, if that becomes your your norm, the most successful people in the world wake up at 4.35. Right. That if that's your norm, there's no reason you won't be successful in anything that you do, provided you persevere and you work hard, because nothing comes easy. You've got to persevere and work hard. And if they have those skills and they trust those skills and they trust those values, I think anything they touch, they'll be, or any anything anybody touches uh should be successful. They should be successful at it.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:29

Yeah. So Faisal, I mean, um if they're not proud of you, I'm proud of you. Because um this is the second time that we've uh had a podcast here together and the at this place. And the common denominator, apart from the perseverance that I know uh that is is is innate in you, is the fact that when we're talking about them getting up early, your kids. Your kid, it's it's almost two o'clock on a Saturday afternoon when your kid is sitting here with you. Yeah, yeah. And at the previous podcast, they were also here with you. They love being part, they love being part of yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:03

And I love making them part of it as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:05

Yes. And that's something uh unusual for me to see. Normally kids don't want to be part of this sort of stuff. It's boring for them. And um even on that other podcast, they were sitting there taking notes and giving you um you know props. So kudos to them, well done. They were they're my biggest critics.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:22

I mean I mean, with other people you can shy away, but if your wife and kids tell you, Dad, but this is not and this and your ask you who keeps you grounded.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:30

Hey, VT, this is not on. You gotta make sure you fix it because yeah, yeah. So you can't argue with them.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:36

You can't, yeah. Exactly. But uh your mirror, actually. But yeah. Um yeah, I'm proud that you're an inspiration because um the stuff you're doing. Um I mean, I love innovation and technology, especially, and especially when it is holistic as um Myobrace and the TMJ Center is. I do so much of Botox here, it's actually ridiculous. And I hate doing it. I try and get my patients to try and sort out their bruxism in a very holistic way. Um and w I'm actually losing money on Botox. Yeah. Because I still I'm still doing it at a cost from from five, six years ago that I used to do it. So I'm excited to actually start sending my patients to this TMJ center who attend the course. And uh I think if any of the listeners who do do have bruxism happening, they should probably reach out to us and and figure out a way of how to holistically sort this out. Yes. And first, do no harm principles. And well done to you for persevering. Totally. And uh we are excited to see what's to come. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:38

Yeah, thanks for giving me the opportunity. I mean, as I'm saying, I think through these podcasts I learn a lot as well because you don't connect the dots, and this allows you to connect dots, right? So, I mean, I've learned a lot from from this last two hours. Can't even believe it's 2 p.m. already. Um But yeah, thank you. I think you guys are doing some wonderful things as well. The guests that you've had on on your show uh uh previously are, I mean, all movers and shakers in their own in their own way. So I think by you creating a platform to highlight that um and asking the questions that you guys do ask, right? I think it's important because what you ultimately do is getting into someone's mind and you're trying to get out what's been locked away because you you're moving on in life and you don't think about these things. So so yeah, it's it's it's it's it's lacquer. It's it's it's you know, yeah. If people can learn from the lessons, I think that's more important, right? If people cannot make mistakes because they've learned certain lessons from other people's mistakes, I think that's the key to this whole thing is that learn from other people's mistakes and you know try and make less and less and less mistakes. Because life is all about mistakes. You're not gonna get everything right all the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:44

I'm I'm I'm very sure that people are gonna learn from this. I I know I have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:47

Oh, yeah, thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks, buddy. Cool. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:51

Sweet.