SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome back, everyone. Today we've got with us the Quintin Tarantino of dentistry. I've used this joke before, he's still laughing at it. But if anybody doesn't get that, um Dr. Ibrahim Patel, who is an endodontist. And endodontists are people who remove nerves from tooth, from the tooth, which is basically called pulp. And is a movie called pulp fiction. Oh gosh. So he's a fictional pulp character. So, Dr. Ibrahim, can we call you IB for the purpose of the show? You call me EB. Okay, welcome to this um episode. And um yeah, we look forward to our riveting conversation. Guys, thanks so much for having me. Yeah. So I mean, welcome Ibby. Thanks. Uh you see what happens when you you give Yak the reins. We were talking off camera and off uh before we recorded, and I said, Yak, you do the intro today. I don't know whether I'm gonna do that again for the next episode.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

But yeah, it'd be nice to meet you and see you again. Uh welcome. How are you doing? Yeah, I'm good. I'm good, excited to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

So when I think of you, I think of a dentist who is sort of at the top of their game, knows what they're doing, uh looked up to by their peers.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Um and you know, Yak Yak and I were chatting before beforehand, and I said, Um, you know, this guy is practicing in Bedford View now, uh, which is down the road from your practice. Uh how do you feel about that, Yak? And Yak was like I was so excited.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

KB, you want to say something?

SPEAKER_05 1:37

Yeah, I'll elaborate on that because everyone thought that, oh, Dr. Patel, no, Yak's competition. And I even told my staff before, like when you first came, that this is for me, it's exciting because you've got the respect not just of your patients, but your peers as well. And I know I'm blowing a lot of smoke somewhere, but it is quite literally the truth. You're just a genuinely nice guy. And I was excited for you to come and be around here because we've got a good referral system. Yes. Um, we refer a lot of our cases to you, and I know that I, you know, my patients are going to be in good hands when you know they're in your care. Um and what did you feel about moving into Bedford View? Was I ever a threat?

unknown 2:20

Come on.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

No, I think um I enjoy the collaborative space. And my feeling has always been that I don't believe one person can be everything for their patient. And if you know someone can do something better than you, then you need to give them that opportunity. And I love working with other clinicians. I love everyone has a different perspective. And you get to benefit from that. I think if you think you know it all, you're only setting yourself up for failure. So everyone has something to offer, and I'm learning every day. Yeah, so so that's a I like that answer.

SPEAKER_05 2:58

Ibi, where I was building up to with the intro is to say my perception is that you're one of the few people that got into dentistry because you knew you wanted to do it and you absolutely felt like you wanted to be uh a dentist at the top of the game.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Is that right? Or not really? Um no. So tell us, how did it happen? So my feeling was so as a kid, I knew that I wanted to be in health sciences. That was always a given. Why? Um I loved healthcare. How health sciences mean doctor.

SPEAKER_05 3:32

You want to be a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

So medical doctor. I think it was it was broad. It was broad. I knew I wanted to help people. I enjoyed working with people. A desk job was never going to be for me. And so, I mean, automatically, you know, growing up within an Indian community, you have very few choices at university. You're either going to go and study engineering or you're going to the health science field, or you're going to become a lawyer. And thankfully Why why why do we say that? We say this, right? We always say this, but like, did you feel like that also? Was it just an unspoken um expectation, or what did the folks do? Did they influence? I think growing up in the 90s, it was just this um unspoken behavior that within larger gatherings, that's what you that's what you saw as a kid. Those are the people you saw being respected. And at that point you think, oh, okay, well, this is what I should become then. Were your parents doctors and No, no one else in my family is in the medical field. Okay. You know, that's that's the best part. So they were open to it and they wanted me to follow. Where did where did you grow up? So I grew up in Lanasia.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Uh good old Extension 9. Right. And yeah, we were the children who were on the street the whole day. Is that called Dexina? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Extension 9 is now where the trade route mall is. Um, that's where it was. But but I mean we were the kids who grew up in a generation where you were on the street their whole day. The only limit you had was you get your butt into the house before the streetlights go on. Okay. Yak and I are Natelle KZN boys, right? So we don't I don't know, maybe Yak knows. But Linasia, you guys called it Lens for short. Yes. I've heard of Lens South. Is that a different place altogether in Southeast Texas? So Lens South is literally left right next to Lens. That's where all the Durbanites come from, the ex-Derbanite. Um apparently I've heard so. Okay.

unknown 5:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

All right. So you used to play on the what what did you play? Cricket or soccer? What was happening? You know, I think anything that kept us entertained. Yeah. I mean, just from going on your bike, riding around the neighborhood w with your friends, walking around, stopping at someone's house, playing outside. Yeah. And then so were you g you you were probably good academically, or how did the health sciences thing? So I think one of my biggest uh inspirations was my sister when it came to academics. Uh she was six years ahead of me at school, but she was someone who came back home year after year with awards. Um she was a prefect, she was going on to become the head girl. Um she had a lot going on for her, so she was a big inspiration in my life. And um yeah, I felt that uh I enjoyed, I enjoyed studies, I enjoyed my work, but I also enjoyed being with my friends. Were you at a so-called Indian school or so primary was actually at the local school within the area, so it was Zodiac Primary School. Um growing up, I actually had the fortune of growing up in a multicultural environment, uh, which I think shaped a lot of me. High school changed. I did go to a Muslim school, my high school. Um I found it difficult to adapt to a Muslim school environment because it wasn't something that I was used to. So the culture was different, the behavior was different, but you know, people say that you often find those very similar to your wavelength, and you stick with them, and I think that's what happened eventually. Okay. Yeah. And then wh when did you decide to apply for dentistry? When and how, or was it like me who just did medicine, you know, applied medicine to dentistry and then just got in? No, so I thought that I mean, so I knew I wanted health sciences, right? And a friend of mine, his father was a specialist at Paraguanath Hospital. And he offered a medical doctor. So a medical doctor, he was a hematologist. And uh we thought, okay, we're going to spend a few days at Paragwanath Hospital. And got to go there, got to really see the real medicine. And at that point, my focus was, I thought, no, I could be really good in pediatrics. And he thought, okay, well, if you think you'd like to become a pediatrician, I'm going to place you in a Pete's ward. But he placed me there and left. And he said, you know, experience this for what it is. And after a day there, I on the road back home, I was like, I cannot become a pediatrician. I will be depressed every day because my nature is that I tend to absorb others' energies quite easily. And it was just very heavy for me. You know, seeing those parents in the type of pain that they were in, the kids in the cubicles. Um, I went home and I said to my mom, now, as as much as I thought this was for me, this is actually not what I want to do. And I changed to dentistry without knowing. I I did not observe a single dentist in my life. And I applied for dentistry as my first choice. I did not even apply for medicine. Wow. That's like medicine got stuck off. You know, I didn't even think at the time that there's so many other specialties to go into.

SPEAKER_05 8:51

Was this an instantaneous decision? It was either pediatrics or dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

So it was, yeah, I think it was PETs or no medicine. And I maybe I didn't think it through. I mean, you're young when you make that decision.

SPEAKER_05 9:02

Yeah. Can we just take one step back? Um how were you academically in high school? Was were you off sound grades that you knew that you know this was an option for you that you could step into?

SPEAKER_00 9:17

So early high school, I was still very playful and I mean I wasn't thinking that far. But in standard eight, I started looking towards my career and what I wanted to do. And I think that's when I really hit the books hard and started improving. And, you know, I mean, you know what the requirements are. You hear about how difficult it is to get into medicine at university, and so you push. It's it's either you make the grade or you don't. Yeah. And it's what I wanted to do, and I pushed myself. And what what year was this? When did you uh matriculate? So I matriculated in 2003. Okay. One year after me. So so it was in the 2000, like really around 2000, the the whole hype around the new century. Yeah. Um when the millennium hit. Yeah, that was the time when I had spoken to my sister and I said, I want to do this. And she said, push, we've got your back. Okay. So your sister played quite an integral role in guiding and mentoring you. What is she a doctor or what is she? No, no, my sister is now actually in HR. Okay. So so maybe that was the role she was born for as well. Right. Yeah. You know, so I think um my mom and sister played a huge role in the early parts of my life in guiding me. Um, I leaned a lot a lot on the two of them. Uh my brother was kind of like my background guardian. We used to fight a lot. No, older actually. He's three years older than I am. Um I mean, directly the two of us were would fight quite a bit. I mean, the type of fighting there that would break nails. I mean, he scarred me. The skies for my brother. Okay, cool. Yeah, I I carry it around with me. But but I've he's left an left an impression on you, literally. Literally. Yeah. And yeah, so I mean, I think he was just my guardian angel in the background. He wouldn't make it known what he was doing, but he had my back. And whereas my sister and my mom were more in the foreground, just guiding me. This is what you need to do. Let's let's go. So, what was the thought process? I mean, from PEDs to dentistry, like are you thinking, okay, maybe I'll have I'll tell you like what a lot of people say to me is like I'll have the doctor title, I'll I'll make money, I'll be able to run my own business. Is that one of those? I think it was just the next best thing. Really? Okay, we're not choosing medicine. Yeah. So we're going to to dentistry, and yeah, you still have the doctor title.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

And so you didn't apply for anything else, just dentistry? Um, dentistry was my first choice. My three choices were so random. I mean, so it was dentistry, it was mechanical engineering, right, and it was uh BAC. Okay. Uh I I mean, really across the spectrum. That's accounting, right? Yes. That's that's funny because Yak, who who uh he did mechanical engineering, you know this. He studied mechanical engineering. I did not know that.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Before dentistry. Uh-huh. Yeah, it didn't work out for him when he became a dentist. So but you got accepted everywhere. Where did you apply?

SPEAKER_00 12:16

So I applied in Cape Town at UWC, and I applied at Vitz, and I got accepted at both. Um UWC's acceptance came a bit late. Uh uh, so Witz had actually come through and it was decided, okay. You went to Witts going to Bay. Would you have gone to UWs if it came to you sooner? I don't think my parents would have been too excited about me going to UWs. It was also easier in that my brother was studying at the time at Witz. Okay. So so they knew at least someone's there to just look over, make sure I'm fine. Are you the only one in healthcare from the uh there's three siblings? Three siblings? I'm the only one in healthcare. Okay. So what was dental school like? Was it a shock? Because I mean you just you thumbsucked and you got into dentistry, right? Without even shadowing a dentist or anything. Yeah, no, look, it was random. It was random. I I I got into dentistry and for me it was just initially I thought, okay, let's let's see where this goes. Um I did have regrets in the first year. I thought I I kicked myself for not applying for medicine. I met a lot of people who were then studying medicine. Why regrets? What what were you what were you thinking? What was not because I didn't enjoy dentistry, it was then that I realized that I could have gone into other aspects of medicine if I didn't enjoy it.

SPEAKER_05 13:32

That was actually going to be my question, sorry, in retrospect. Like you chose pediatrics, like very, very specific. Like did you not and you felt I mean obviously that um apprehension towards that specific field was the way you know the kids were. They were, you know, apprehensive at the onset. Why why did you not want to explore any other specialities of medicine?

SPEAKER_00 13:57

I think I don't think I thought it through, in all honesty. I didn't actually I didn't speak to a medic. I just made that decision.

unknown 14:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

I love this story because I promise you there's probably so many people like that. Like we're 17, 18 at that time of our life. We're not thinking about, you know, six years ahead even. No, absolutely. And you know, I always say that I think I'm one of the lucky ones that I chose dentistry and I think dentistry chose me.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

And except for first year when you were having regrets. I mean, what so first year I had regrets because first year is so generic across, or at least it was at that time, that you know, the pharmacists, the dentists, the medics, we were all in the same classes. So it it was fairly generic. We were lucky with dentistry where we had some of our med school subjects already. So they were starting to introduce us to it. And I started learning a little bit about dentistry. In the second year, um, also, you know, it it was enjoyable. It was fun. I was good with my hands, but it wasn't a passion as yet. Aaron Ross Powell Do you start doing clinical stuff at Witz in the second year? So now the revised curriculum, you start doing it in the first year. At that point, it was more in the second year that you became a lot more hands-on.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

And you knew then exactly what the industry was about. And in third year, you then stepped into the clinics.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

So when you say hands-on in first and second year, what are you talking about? So with a revised curriculum now, you know, from as early as your second week there, you are already learning about tooth morphology and you you straight up like uh wax blocks. So you start drawing. We used to start them off with drawings, and that's where some of the students would already start getting the feeling that, you know, we're not really enjoying this, um, to actually carving out teeth in wax, to to doing preparations, to act to doing solid tooth preparations in first year.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

I wonder if if people knew before applying and getting into dentistry that they were good that they would be in second year sitting and drawing teeth and carving teeth out. I wonder how many people would reconsider applying, you know, had they known all these things in the first place. So I I think and and so later in my story, you'll hear about why I went back to become a lecturer. But that was one of my key um takes that I eventually became the first year coordinator for dentistry. And one of my focuses was actually to let students experience dentistry very early on in their studies. Because at WITS you have a very small window of opportunity to change in in your first year. And if you go beyond that time, it's more difficult. And I thought if I could expose these kids to exactly what dentistry is, what are they in for, what is their first year, second year, third year, fourth year about, they would then have a better idea of whether this is something they would want to stay in. Sorry, what do you mean window to change? So, you know, in your first year, there are students who are accepted into other faculties. And if they know early enough that dentistry is not for them, they can still accept those other opportunities or request to move into those causes. Provided they've already got an offer from that other Provided they were already accepted. Yeah. Um Was that the same for you, in Petoria? Probably, I think so. I think it's but I I love what you're saying because yeah, if you expose them early and they know this is not for me, let them get out and do something else. Yeah. You know, it it's it's good for the profession and for the person as a whole, I feel. Okay, but how was dental school? You know, second year you start enjoying things or Yeah, dental school was rough. Right? Um, first year coming from a Muslim school environment back into the multicultural setting. For me, that was refreshing. It was freedom, and I really enjoyed that aspect of it. Um having the freedom, though, of university life, I think also came with its own challenges, nonce now running after you. You decide whether you're going to your lectures or not. You, you know, you decide just how much you want to take in, how you want to work. Um but I was a little bit of a nerd on first year. I was about to ask, but did you just go wild or no, no, so so I think I stuck a little bit of a balance. I knew my brother was there, so I couldn't mess around too much. Um but I stuck a good balance. Uh I failed my first biotest. Oh, okay. As most people do. Yeah. Because at that point I I honestly didn't know how to study for a university degree. Well, you said as most people do, I mean, not the real nights, okay. So a lot of people fail their first biotest because I mean you go in there, you study this content, and you study like fine comb study.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

And then you go into this test where it's only 30 marks. You're like 30 marks. And there's three questions, and each of them are 10 marks each.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

And I was like, wow. And then you start writing and you write too much of detail on the first question, not realizing the time, and then the time's up, and you're like, crap. Yeah. So so yeah, I failed that first test. It was a good eye opener. Good. It uh pushed me into uh university mode. Yeah. But um, and then I found balance afterwards, you know, made friends, still got to go out. Um you could do everything you wanted to with your friends, provided you were disciplined enough to actually push on. So I joined what I called the 3 a.m. club. Tell us. So that was when I did all my university work.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

I woke up at 3 a.m. every day, and I would study, do all my campus work from 3 to 5, get ready. We would leave um for campus quite early. From Linasia, traffic was horrible, so we would need to leave between 6 and a half past six. Um, at that point, sometimes I used to catch a bus in the morning, so I had to catch the six o'clock bus. From Lenz. From Lenz.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Was it a bus? Yeah. Yeah. So it would go around. Thankfully, Extension 9 was the last stop of the bus before it left Lenz, which meant on most days you would be standing. Um so on the days that I needed to be there very early, I would need to take the bus. Uh, other than that, my brother was very kind to then include me in his love club. So so yeah, I really was just now. Yeah, I thought that would be an automated process in the house. Yeah, look, I mean, um they didn't start much later and much earlier. So no one wants to wait for the med school kid who's finishing at six. Yeah. Um so so I used to use the bus home as well, which was also an experience because bio used to end at six. The bus driver wants to leave at six oh one. But your last class ended at six. Our last class was exactly meant. Um it was biology, yeah. It was biology. We were in the group that had the lecture from five to six, so it was a bit crazy. Um so you run, you literally run for that bus and and then yeah, takes you back home. So from first year uh you did the 3 a.m. thing? I did the 3 a.m. thing because I wanted to enjoy my university life. Okay, that's very mature. So so that way I could skip some lectures, that way I could go out with my friends during the day, have have a good time during the day because Where did you guys go out during the day? So I mean the closest place was the zone. Okay. You go chill at the zoolake. And then at that time there was something called arena, right?

SPEAKER_05 21:29

It was called the arena on main.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Oh the matrix. The matrix. It was the matrix. So yeah, I get to spend time in the matrix, get to sit on the garden lawns. Um Yeah. So it was fun. Okay. All right. And and so breeze through or any struggles? Was bio the first and last failure? So bio was the first failure. It wasn't the last.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Um, after that I worked pretty hard. I got really good grades in first year. I was Also trying to, you know, I knew that the more A's you got, the more of a discount you got on your university fees. So I was trying to make it easier for my parents. So from metric to first year, got quite a decent amount off with my metric results. From first year to second year as well, pushed so that I could get a discount on my fees for the second year. Second year Anatin Fizz was hectic. Um, getting into med school full-time was definitely hectic. Um, lots of content, long days, but but pushed through it. It was fine. Um second year, I met my now my now wife. Okay. Um at that time, she was just in a group of friends that we were at. But in third year, I said, no, I've got to this lady. Yes. Is she also a dentist or not? No, so she was studying pharmacy. And I mean, I knew at the time that there was no way she was going to be interested. So we were just friends. But uh yeah. It worked out. Are you saying you got married in third year? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So we actually we got engaged in my fifth year. She at that time she was already qualified, and then we got made it to when I was in comms off. Wow.

unknown 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Okay, you had a plan. I had a plan.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

So when you were finishing off dental school, were you looking forward to going out into the big bad world and becoming a dentist? What were you what were your like aspirations at that stage once you realized that dentistry was for you?

SPEAKER_05 23:32

Can I pop in there quickly? And there's asked you one more question about um dental school. A lot of students would probably want to hear. Because you are like gonna be their peer. But what is your what was your favorite subject and what was your least favorite subject in dental school? What did you hate?

SPEAKER_00 23:52

So thankfully there wasn't a subject that I hated. There were people that I did not like. Your wife's gonna keep it all. No, but I think for the most part, I had a positive experience, but I think I had a game plan as well. So I knew that dentistry was for me the first day I stepped into the clinic. After that first patient interaction, I was lucky enough to go home and say, dentistry's for me. I love this, this is what I want to do. And so I enjoyed it. There were certain people along the way that uh took away some of that passion. But later on I understood that that wasn't a reflection on me, it was a reflection on them and how they chose to do certain things. Um But having said that, I mean, dentistry required a lot of focus, a lot of discipline, and it required a lot of friends who you could actually get through it with. And my advice to anyone studying dentistry is that if you think you're going to get through dental school alone, you are in for a rude awakening. There is no way that you can get through that environment on your own. You need a group that's going to get you through, that's going to push you, support you, motivate you, that's going to pick you up when you fall, because you will fall.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Um thankfully that's what I had. Aaron Ross Powell, don't you think that lecturers are so important, like in in dental school, because they can either um plant a seed and inspire you to be passionate about something, or they can, you know, really make you feel like I do not want to get even into that. Oh no, absolutely. I think that lecturers do not realize how important they are, what their actions say, what their words say. In second year, I had an encounter with a lecturer who said to me that you are not good enough, you will never be able to do this. It was a Friday afternoon. I stormed out of that lab and burst into tears, called my sister, I was like, this is what they're saying. I don't know if I can do this anymore. And she backtalked me, went back in, had a few friends around me to be like, you know, to hell with him. You can do this. Come, we're gonna do this together. You want to elaborate a bit more on that?

SPEAKER_05 26:06

What happened?

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Well, I totally feel you before you. I totally feel you. I've gone in, I remember dental school. There was one session I had which was just shocking, right? And it wasn't I wasn't really supported. I didn't feel supported. Maybe let me put it that way. I didn't feel supported. And after that session, I just went to the bathroom and I cried.

SPEAKER_05 26:26

Like it was just overwhelming. Yak, you didn't have any tears. You're a bunch of crybabies. Yeah, you didn't have any tears. No, I I've never. I I I was told I didn't deserve to be in dentistry, and I agreed with them. I don't know if you know my story. I was the only student in my c in my class, in my dental school. No, yeah, literally, literally. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Okay. And just explain that a bit. Um how to be.

SPEAKER_05 26:47

I in my first year I failed. Um, and then there was that was the last batch, that was the last in-tech. I studied in Mauritius. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

And I think to prove a point, using Tajaban, so so basically what Yaak is saying is so there's a there's a medical school in Mauritius where he studied, right? And they also had dentistry on the side. Okay. And and on the side. And he failed his year, so and he was the last batch of dental students. So because he failed, all of those people progressed, and he was the only one left in the dental school keeping it going. That's why he was literally student number one, and and that's it.

SPEAKER_05 27:24

So he he had one-on-one lectures. Go on back. But my point was I was told that, and for me, I didn't really hate the person that told me that. I found it as an inspiration. I agreed with them. All right. Something needed to change. So, with your guy's story as well, maybe it was something that you guys needed to hear in order to elicit some form of change.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

No, yet we weren't useless like you. We knew that we were good, and we just felt like we were being unfairly treated.

SPEAKER_05 27:48

I don't know. I'm just speaking for myself here. So I want to hear the rest of your story.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

No, I think for myself, it was I wasn't good enough at that point. Okay. And I was struggling with the concept, but I think there would there was a better way. Um, but also I think maybe lectures at that point didn't know that there was a better way. Now we know that different students learn differently. Some need audio, some need visuals, some need notes. Um, at that point there was one way of teaching something, and if you didn't get that way, you were not good enough. Um you can elaborate and tell us what. I don't think I don't think look, you you be you're being diplomatic, but I don't think there's ever a right situation to tell somebody, a student, that you're never, you know, you this you're not cut off for it. Look, I mean, that was the first time it happened. It happened a lot more after that. Yeah. But it's just when it happened after that, I understood that, okay, fine, I'm not at that level. This is how you're perceiving me. I'm going to prove you wrong. And so it motivated me to do better. And and funny enough, it was the same subject. I struggled with the same subject throughout ten process. You see, for you for the listeners, Yak is nodding very knowingly because he's saying basically his nod is telling me, yeah, you needed that.

SPEAKER_05 28:59

I'm nodding because I realize we're not going to hear what happens at that time I'm asking.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Um, no, so I'll say it. It was prostodontics and it was removable prostodontics. It was setting up density. And I think the lecturer at that time was probably just frustrated because there were a few of us that were struggling with it. Um, I think time was also not on their side. So, I mean, it got better. It got better. I pushed myself, I worked hard, and I got to the point where he saw the progress, he saw the improvement, and I got him to change his thinking. Sadly enough, he actually passed away at the end of that year. So he never got to see the progression going forward. But earlier you asked me about someone that I loved the most in dental school. There were two people in dental school who, for me, played a huge role in my success. The one he's also late, it's Prof. Setsa. So Prof. Sidney Setsa was one of those people who was a loving proof that if you do what you love, you will lead a great life. You know, there's something that he said to us very early on in our career. And he said that if you wake up in the morning and you get to work and you start working, and at five in the afternoon you look at the clock and you're like, oh my gosh, where did the day go? That is the type of career that you want. But if you wake up in the morning and you have to drag yourself out of bed, and at nine o'clock you're looking at the clock and you're like, oh, why is it only nine o'clock? That is when you need to make a change in your career. And that is something that I've loved by because I saw him loving this truth. And it's something that I would say to all my students every single year that the day you lose your passion for something is the day you need to reevaluate. And I think in dentistry, it's something I see over and over again, not just in students, but in colleagues as well. There are many colleagues that I meet along the way, and you can see that they've lost that passion, that they don't want to do dentistry anymore. And I say to them, but what are the alternatives? Is there perhaps something you should be looking at? Maybe you are better in another space. Podcasting, becoming a lawyer, quitting you guys, I mean a loving proof of that. What was Prof. Or what what what did he lecture? Prof. Setza was a pediatric dentist. Okay. You you mentioned two people. I think you mentioned. Yeah, the second was Prof. Shackleton. Right. So Professor Joy Shackleton, I think, is a huge inspiration for so many people that have qualified at FITS. It was her approach as uh as a lecturer, as a mentor. And I think, yeah, she then started taking me from my third year. She was someone that I would go to often for advice if I thought that another lecturer was being overly harsh. You know, she would be able to walk me through it. She would use, she would get me to mature. That's the biggest role that she played.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

But was she uh what got me?

SPEAKER_00 32:06

So she was a prosthetantist.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

And she was in Prostodontics. So she changed a lot of how I saw things and my perception of things. Aaron Powell But imagine if if a lecturer broke you down to such an extent that you decided I'm quitting the industry, right? You wouldn't be where you are today. Did these experiences with lecturers and things like that inspire you to say, one day I want to come back here and teach? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in the third year I decided that I want to go back.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

And my reasoning for wanting to go back is one, I knew I loved teaching. I knew I loved teaching because even as early as third year, I signed on as a tutor to tutor first and second year students. So I knew that I wanted to go back and teach. Not only that, I also knew that I loved endodontics as early as third year. Okay. Root canal treatment was the one thing that fascinated me because no two root systems were ever the same. So those were the two things that I knew as early as third year. So I started aligning myself. I started, I made sure that I got into the Dental Students Council. I made sure that I got into the Association of Dental Students of South Africa at that point. I made sure that I had all these leadership roles so that it would prepare me one day for my return. And I said to my lecturers, I said to Prof. Ackleton then uh as early as then to say, I'm going to come back here as a lecturer. And I aligned myself that way. Um, I mean, things didn't go as planned. Um there was a point in third year where I thought I may need to leave dental school. Things were not going well for my parents at that point. My dad had lost his business. Um, I wasn't sure how I was going to pay for my fees in the following years. But, you know, there were other people that that came about who saw my potential and they assisted me. They helped me get a bursary. Um, and with my bursity, I was able to complete my studies. Um, those were lecturers. Oh, lovely. These were lecturers who became acutely aware of what was going on at the time and reached out to assist. That's amazing. Yeah. You know, so because I was at that point, I was looking at the different options. I was looking at student loans with different banks. I was, you know, how do you get yourself through for someone who now needs that backing? And and it was a lecturer who saw my potential and said, no, Ibie, we are going to get your bursity. And she made me aware of a few bursities. We applied, and yeah, I I got a bursity for fourth and fifth year. Beautiful, man. But yeah, she saw your potential. You mentioned that in, you know, the it was worth worth putting that effort for you because you weren't just there trying to get get by and pass and scrape through like some of us. Is this was it a specific person? So yeah, it was actually that was Dr. Saida Tutla. She was my endodontic lecturer. Is her name? See, endodontics. What's her name? Tutla. Okay. So um she was my endodontic lecturer. She was actually a supervisor on one of the first research studies that I had done. Uh, and she was the one who actually secured that uh that bursary for me. She helped me go get it. That's amazing. Shout out to Dr. Tutler. I just want to say Tutla. So yeah, she um finished fourth and fifth year and went into ComServe, and in ComServ also started pushing towards that goal. You know, um, eventually went into private practice, got back part-time into vets. Where did you do ComServ? Tell us about ComServ. So ComServe was done. So my bursary actually came from the Houting Department of Health. Right. And so one of their um Well, I called it a burse, really. That because I was on a bursary with them, you then had to do your community.

SPEAKER_05 35:48

Can I can I ask more about that in detail? Because maybe there's other people listening out there that don't have funds to, you know, like fund themselves and they need a bursary. How act how does it work actually? Is it like a sponsorship? Do you go you have to pay it back?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

So so they advertise the bursaries on an annual basis and you apply for it. But yeah, one of the things the what it is. Regulation void. Yeah. That when you get it is that you need to work for the department. So the amount of years that they fund you is the amount of years that you need to then work for the department of health, which I see as a benefit because it then, you know, just like any other bursary out there, it secures a job for you when you when you qualify. Um, for the Ghao Teng Department of Health bursary, the added advantage was that you would be placed in Ghauteng. You know, they wouldn't place you elsewhere in the country because you were their bursary holder. So I was placed within the Joburg Metro district and I would rotate between different clinics. The clinics are very busy in Joburg Metro, which a lot of people saw as a disadvantage. I found it a way to hone my skills very quickly. You know, and and when I say busy, you had 40 patients per clinician every day waiting outside your door. Um you were given the opportunity to do other procedures as well.

SPEAKER_05 37:11

So we're glad you mentioned that because I mean there's a preconception, I won't say misconception, that there's a bit of a stagnation in community service right now, where it's just extractions and prescribing and very minimal alternative treatment.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

So are you saying that there was So I think commu your com dent here is what you make of it. If you are someone who wants to go in and just do extractions and do the bare minimum, then you'll get away with just doing that. But if you want to push your boundaries and try and do more, then there are ways that you can do more. And I've seen a lot of community service dentists do this. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. Do you think the government or the facility that you were working at, were they supportive of this? So they were supportive. Um at that point, the the lady who was in charge of my rotation, you know, she was very supportive of people who wanted to do more. And if she saw that you were interested, she'd try and give you the platform to do it. So there were clinics where I performed root canal treatments, where I did surgical extractions, where I did dentures. So, you know, apart from the expensive side of dentistry to practice, I actually had the opportunity of doing a lot uh within my community service here. Yes, all the clinics were not equipped to be able to do anything. So if you you had to go in and you had to see what you could do at a specific clinic, what were the resources available? Could was there an opportunity to purchase uh through the tender system that that they use? Because later on I found out that the budgets were always there. But it was what you wanted to do. And things changed a lot since I was in community service. And I think that people going into ComServ now have a lot more opportunities than back then. Because over the years, more and more people pushed and slowly, slowly the clinic sided getting better equipped. And today you can offer a lot more in those clinics than we could two decades ago.

SPEAKER_05 39:16

Yeah. In fact, it uh this last week at our AGM, we spoke about a lot about private sector funding of community service um dentists and even to the to the point where if if the community service dentist would want to like shadow a private sector uh dentist, you know, on weekends or off time or whatever it is, we were trying to create this opportunity. Uh and we wanted to start from the auspices of SARDA, South African Dental Association, to try and start this dialogue between Vitz University and um even sorry, before ComServe, even to the final year students, just to give them a bit more exposure. Yeah. Because that's what it's about, isn't it? We don't want the stagnation in ComServe to then come out afterwards and then you don't know what it is you want to do.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

I think that there's so much of potential for public-private partnership uh in the arena where from the public side, what we started doing was because of our connections within the private sector, with the dental companies, with the training centers, we had arranged for training of the public dentists in certain areas. So, with my focus being endodontics, um, I did a lot of training for public service dentists. Um, we held training for those in the West Rend sector, in the east rent sector, central Joburg, um, south of Joburg. So we've trained a lot of people in the public sector. We've given them a lot of refresher courses, they didn't have to pay for any of it, just so that we could give them the tools that they need to then be able to perform.

SPEAKER_05 40:52

So somewhat like a bridging. But we jumped ahead quite a bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Wait, wait, wait. I want to ask, no, because I can you almost said post-comserv, right? Yeah. But was ComServe the first time that you started earning money? Or had you had you done other businesses and things like that before? For me, it was the first time I got the f a paycheck. So I think I used to do random things. So um my uncle had a factory. Okay. So I used to love going to go and help out at the factory. In retrospect, I don't think I was really helping, but my dad used to be at the same factory as well. And I think that they so there was a cosmetic factory that my uncle ran for many years. And in fact, it's still in existence today. So I would go and I liked the experience of of helping out and that, and my dad would then give me this little allowance for it. So I used to be like, that was my first job. Okay. But but really I think I was just hindering them. You know, obliging. Um, but other than that, I actually had not done any major jobs like working weekends. So it was the first proper paycheck. Uh the first proper paycheck was my comso. Do you remember what you sp what you spent your first paycheck on? Um, my first paycheck, I was very stingy with, actually. Yeah, Taylor? I must be honest. I was very stingy. Um, I did buy a little computer though, because I was born in comso. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you sit at the clinics for for two or three hours and you're just like looking at the walls.

SPEAKER_05 42:24

You should have seen the things we bought in comms.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Uh so I bought myself a little computer. But also, remember, I knew I was getting married.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

So um my first few paychecks was actually saving up uh towards my wedding. Um and that was held. It was it was a family effort between my mum, my sister, my brother. We all got together. And uh yeah. Um put that. So you didn't splurge. You didn't splurge and go. No, no, no. I couldn't. I couldn't because I knew that I'm getting married in April and that you know I needed to look at what what I would need at that point. Okay. So so I started saving up. Because it was pretty good money, right? I mean, for somebody coming straight out of university, you we get paid well in comserv.

SPEAKER_05 43:10

So And you get a tax return because of that first year.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Look, my first paycheck was I think I went home with 11,000 Rand. Oh, hold on. No, that's just it couldn't have been what? Why? So so it was prior to OSD kicking. OSD actually kicked in the in my ComServe year. So it went up from 11 to 17. So so for that first year I earned 17,000 Rand.

SPEAKER_03 43:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

In retrospect, you think like, wow, like, okay, how did I run in like I was married? How's how did this happen? But yeah, we we made it work. Okay, that makes sense. We made it work. Um There was not much to splurge, okay. Uh sorry. Because I remember my first paycheck was like thirty plus, thirty plus thousand. Yeah. No, no, no, it definitely wasn't that. And my rent was two thousand five hundred Rand. So not much expensive. Yeah. Okay. No, so so at that point, I also started taking over a lot of the household expenses slowly, slowly. And so it was going into that. And after ComServ, I remained with the Houting Department of Health for a few more months. Um, like I said, because of my bursary requirements. So I stayed on. Um, so 2009 was my ComServe year. 2010, I then stayed on. And I left late 2010 because how to usually are, um, didn't there weren't sufficient funds.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Uh uh.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

And so they then decided to release me.

SPEAKER_05 44:36

Um, let's let's ask you a bit more on that now, because a lot of people in ComServ right now, it's a gold standard. You have a ComServ post to try and maintain that post or to be held, held on further than that. Because from there then you have job surety to basically then decide if you're gonna go into private or whatever it is. Well it doesn't happen for the majority of people. And that's where you know it becomes scary towards the end of the year. Yeah, I don't know if that think it's the same thing, but a lot of the comms of doctors will then start applying to us at like November, December. Who's us? At my practice. People in private practice. People in private practice. Uh um was it was it an easy process for you to be kept on?

SPEAKER_00 45:19

So Or did the bursary dictate? Yeah. So when I was kept on, it was because of the bursary requirements. So I knew that I was safe for a little longer. Um I did start getting comfortable. And so eventually, when they said to me that look, at the end of this year, it's very likely that we won't be able to retain you. Um I was quite upset at that point. I remember that I was working at the TMI, the children's clinic in Parktown. And I was with Dr. Anisa Pendo at the time. She was a good mentor as well, uh, in PEETS, because she ran a PEETS clinic. So I learned a lot of PEETS procedures under her as well. And at that point also, you know, I was a bit teary when I first got the news, and I said to her, okay, I'm going to have to find a job, and I don't know what I'm going to do. And she sat me down. She's like, Why are you upset? There's so much opportunity out there. And I said, But I don't know that. I'm comfortable. And I think one of the things that always, until today, I think that limits my growth is that I prefer job surety. Of course. You know, that paycheck at the end of the month. I I I crave that. I want that. Um, I'm very risk-averse. So I don't take risks. So and she was like, no, Ibbi, you need to open yourself up. You need to hone your skills. And this is the plan that that can happen. And I looked at a few options, went home, really thought about it, and I said, okay, we're going to make this work. And opened myself up to it. Uh started meeting with a few dentists, looking at opportunities out there. And I was then given an opportunity at a Mericross. So I started in the private sector. I stepped into the Mericross completely comfortable. Um, in my first month, I made more than what I did in in government. And I thought, okay, well, yeah, I'm just being stupid again. It's the story of the cow, though, isn't it? So you know that story.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

No, tell me. Sounds like an Elton story.

SPEAKER_05 47:17

Yeah. So it's uh like this this um guy had a cow and they'd keep feeding it the family. They'd take the milk from the cow, they'd make cheese, whatever, it was set out at the market. One day, someone came and pushed the cow over the cliff. And then they thought that, you know, that was it. This was gonna be the end of their livelihood. But then they went into some form of other trade, whatever I'm heavily slaughtering this uh cow.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Slaughtering the cow and the story.

SPEAKER_05 47:44

Yeah. Um but eventually they the the safety and the comfort was in the fact that they had the surety of the cow that they limited themselves from. But not realizing that, you know, once the situation became um, you know, a little bit averse, then they actually had to adapt themselves and they could actually provide more than what the cow actually had. Yeah. So that was the story of the cow. I think we must just let Elton tell that story. And yeah, just leave it at that, please.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

But but you got the gist of it, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I think, you know, I think for a lot of people they fall into that trap where and people come from different backgrounds. And I think that your story usually dictates a lot of your thought process. And for someone looking on to say, no, but you know what, I've got to make sure that I'm earning a certain amount a month so that those that depend on me are all looked after. I think someone like that is a lot less likely to take a risk versus someone else who may not have that type of responsibility on them. Agreed. And things that you'd experienced, right? So you mentioned earlier, like you, you know, your dad lost his business. That might have played in your mind also. Like, I need this security because, you know, I'm I'm Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you you you you look at that and and it does shape who who you then become. Uh and so went into private practice, realized that I love private practice. I was there. Um, had the opportunity of joining as a part-timer back at the university. Okay. So I then went back, I think it was uh for about I can't remember the exact days, but I know I was going for about two afternoons a week, back at the university, back to teaching, really enjoyed the teaching. At the time that an opportunity opened up, I recall that I wasn't ready to go back. I actually, I was enjoying practice so much that I thought, no, let me stay a bit longer. And at that point, um, some of the lectures said to me, No, you know, just apply, go through this process, and then you can make the decision. You know, if you do get it, you can make that decision whether you want to. And I went for this interview, I recall it was on a Friday morning. Um, very nervous, went through um all my ex-lecturers interviewed me. What's that like? What's that like? You know, it was it was the first time I got a taste of academic politics. Okay. And I'll say that because in my interview, I had one academic attacking another academic there, and I was like, wow, okay, you know what? I'm ready for this. Yeah, I've been through vets, now I'm ready for this. So, so that's why I'm so diplomatic. But it no, there's a well-known But it's a well-known thing that academ academia has the biggest politics. Oh no, absolutely. So, yeah, I was um I was able to get through that easily. Didn't have shorty palms and get grilled. Yeah, I mean, I was nervous. Yeah. I was nervous. But um got got through that. I had the end goal in mind, right? So that evening I recall I was at my aunt's place and at five o'clock the phone call came. Yeah. That no, you've been recommended for the post. And okay, what does this mean? So this was a dentist post in the department of pediatric and restorative dentistry. So I thought, okay, now I'm like, shit, I I did this because I just wanted to get the experience of the interview process. Now I'm being offered a job. What am I going to do?

SPEAKER_03 51:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Um so I I asked them if I could please have the weekend to think about it. And I had to weigh up my pros and cons. My wife was really excited about me getting an academic post because she knew it was something that I wanted to do for a while. The reason that I was hesitant was because my growth had kicked off at the Medicross practice. That within, you know, less than two years that I was there, I became the managing dentist, the head dentist at the Medicross that I was at. We were growing the practice, we were changing things. I had really good peers working with me at the time. And I didn't know if I wanted to give that up to go back into an academic job. And my wife said to me, Look, it's something that you've wanted to do. Um, you always have the opportunity of walking back to practice. And so by the Sunday night, we made the decision together. And Monday I called and I said, Okay, I'm accepting this.

SPEAKER_05 52:09

It's like a full circle, hey, from pediatrics in your Ryan back to war.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Was it going to be a pay cut? Um, yes. Yes, it was. Okay, so even at that point. Even at that point, um, that was one of the things that got me to say, look, I am going to now. It was a pay cut, but it was also stability where I would not have to worry, you know, at the end of the month. Because one of the things was that from then up until now, my ethical side plays a huge role in how I treat patients. And I would never push certain treatments, knowing that I'm trying to make more at the end of the month. It was always what's best for the patient. And then at the end of the month, what I got is what I got.

SPEAKER_03 52:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

So going into an environment where, okay, now I've got a paycheck. Yay. I know what I'm earning every month. Um, that was comforting. So I started off. I started off at Vitz. That was in 2012. Um, I joined them around about September. And yeah, I I was actually under Prof. Shackleton then. So she became my boss from mentor to boss. Lovely. Um, so that was a nice transition. That was a nice transition. I then started working with the likes of Dr. Zutler, Professor Carriage, Dr. Beggars, everyone that was once my mentors and teachers in undergrad now was suddenly my colleagues. And so that was a good experience uh initially. You don't feel imposter syndrome and all that stuff, or you made stuff? No, I was ready for this. I was ready for this. Because you made this decision all the way back in time. I made the decision. I wanted to come back, right? So I had this idea. Having gone through VITS, I knew what I wanted to improve, what my experience was and where I wanted to make things better for students. That led to a lot of conflict.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Um, I butted heads with a lot of my peers. I started challenging things. In retrospect, um, I think I had a lot to mature.

SPEAKER_03 54:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

I was not at the maturity level that I should have been at that point. And thankfully, again, you know, I had mentors in-house who held my hand and walked me through the process. What would you have done differently, like looking back now? So I think it's that you need to learn an environment before you go in guns blazing. Oh, you just went in guns blazing. I went in guns blazing, which was not the best approach. But way to endear yourself to your colleagues. Like there's a whole show. This light he's coming now, and he wants to. But but look, I mean, it's something that if I feel really strongly about something, I'm going to speak up about it. Initially, I was very quiet. Um, and I I would say maybe I was taken advantage of a bit in the first few years that I was there. But um at that point, there was huge, there were huge changes in the department. We then merged with prostodontics, and now the prostodontists were with us in the same department. Pediatrics and prostodontics merging. So, so what was the pediatric and restorative dentistry department then merged with prostodontics to become the department of oral rehabilitation? Um, I saw that as a really good move because there was a lot of overlap between the two. And for me, the prostodontic department was one of those really efficiently run departments in the school. You know, and and at that time it was led by Professor Owen and the guy who knew what he was doing. I mean He wears the breeches, right? You know, no, no, no. That was Prof. Evans. Oh, okay. Prof. Evans. Yeah, yeah. So so Prof. Owen really ran a tight ship. And I saw that as an opportunity to grow within uh his space. Everybody talks about Prof. Owen in the world. You know, so so I, you know, I I started engaging him quite a bit, and he was willing to teach. That was one of the positives. He was willing to show he he he respected people who wanted to learn. So so under his leadership in that department, I think I grew quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02 56:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Um he was also not shy to tell you when you are being immature and grow up, that's good. Which I appreciated as well. So so having him as a mentor, then with Prof. Shackleton as well, both of them in the same department, for me was a huge plus. Yeah. And I grew. I grew a lot within the space. Um I went then, my focus shifted to clinical endodontics and preclinical teaching.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

So I grew a lot in the preclinical space, um, changed the course quite a bit over the years, had a lot of people coming through with me into that space. But, you know, I'm proud that over the years that we were there, we built up a course that was internationally compatible. Yeah. That before I left Witz, people could admit that Wits ran one of the best endodontic programs in the country with what we were doing, with what we were teaching, um, the scope of uh of what we were teaching. Um, I think that Seda, Dr. Tutler, and I, you know, we've we developed an endodontic program that really stood out.

SPEAKER_03 57:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

And with that, in the last few years, before I became clinical manager, I went into real education around dentistry. And I hooked up with people from main campus, from the center of teaching and learning, who took me through how you should actually put together a curriculum and a course. So they broke my entire thinking because then I had to go, because when you start as a lecturer, you're a dentist, you're not an educationist, you're not a teacher. So, so how do you teach? You teach how you were taught, right? Because that's the best way that you know. But these guys broke me in completely as a lecturer, and they were like, no, this is actually the theories behind learning. This is how you should approach things, this is how you should build your course. So, over and this happened over COVID, the greatest time for it to happen, because we're all at home, there's nothing else for us to do. So let's rebuild the course. So, over the space of three months, they took me through a ruthless process of what is it that you want to achieve? How are you going to achieve it? Map out every minute of every day that your students will be with you so that they know how your course is going to run. And we built up an entire web based on a learning management system. We built up this course, and it was the first one in dentistry, and we showcased it. It was a second-year course, and I ended up presenting it on various platforms across the university. But um it it's my it was my proudest moment as a teacher. Um I mean, I'm getting goosebumps hearing you tell this story. I can hear how passionate you feel about it, but it's so cool. Like, who teaches a teacher how to teach? And it was these people at that from that center that came there and broke you, as you say. Absolutely. And and again, it was something that you had to be willing to do. Okay. You know, um, I think that one of the biggest things that stopped that stopped health professionals from being better at teachers is their own ego. No, this is a good point because I I might have missed it, but I think you slipped it in there. You engaged with these people from the other department, right? It wasn't that they just said they saw the need and they said, Dr. Patel, we we need to teach you how to learn. You actually actively went and sought this kind of so so so we we suss them out. Right. Yeah. I mean you look at your resources around you at what people are doing around the university, because a lot of these departments they host these training programs where, you know, it um at one point it was actually a talk on how to give a good lecture.

SPEAKER_03 59:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Um and and so from those type of interactions, I could then you know engage more with them, reach out to them. What made you decide to engage? Because you just wanted to be a better teacher. So for me, it was my course. I wanted to deliver a better course. Okay. In that for many years I ran my course according to how it was run. Oh, you experienced it. And and at some point I started looking into preclinical teaching internationally and what were the best models of teaching in a preclinical environment? How do you actually uh converse with students? What are the different methods that you can use? Because one of the things we changed is that, you know, we were used to walking into a room. You sit there, your lectures in front, they spew out knowledge for 45 minutes. I sleep in the back. You you try and soak up what you can, or you fall asleep, or you write in front of it. Mix it. Back in the day, it was mix it, I'd be looking at my phone. Yeah. Right. Or you just lose interest. And then that's that. Then you walk out. Um, they've delivered their lecture, so their job is done. Now it's your job to make sure you learn it. I wanted to change that. So we started looking at different ways of how of how you can teach students. How do you get them engaged? How do you get them more um just you know getting into the content and excite them a little bit? So so that big because for me, one of the biggest um insults was when I was talking if someone slapped. And it wasn't, it wasn't on them. It's on you. It was on me because I failed to spark an interest enough for them to want to stay with me. I fully agree with you. That I bought them to the point where they fell asleep and I was like, crap, EB, you're a shitty lecturer. I fully agree with you. Um and I didn't want to engage with just a handful, I wanted to engage with everyone. Yeah. And to do that, I then learned that I needed to break a few things in my class. One is that I needed to break the clicks in my classroom.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:59

Because in my classroom, I had the group seen as the ones that suck up to the lecturers. Right. I had the group who was independent and would work. And then I had the group who was falling behind and no one seemed to care about them. And for me to get the best out of everyone, I needed to create an activity that was going to force these groups to break. And and with the help of the guys at the Center of Teaching and Learning and CHSE, our Center of Health Science Education, they allowed me to look at interactions that would promote the breakdown of the social nuance. Beautiful. I love this. You know, and and so it came to a point where I would have a less, I would, I would more, I would just look at my classroom because dentistry has more classes, they party students. You know everyone by name. Yes. So you walk around, you see the clicks, you know who the groups are. And then like, right, we are going to do a group activity. And the number one rule for this group activity is you cannot be with friends. I know who your friends are. I did post this i. So I'm going to give you an Excel spreadsheet, group one, two, three, four. This is the topics that each group is going to do. You will populate this yourself. I'll give you a week to do it. But at the end of that week, where I see that friends are together, I will break your group. I want you to be with someone you've never spoken to before. I want you to be with someone who you think is above you or below you. You know, because because you did have that. You had students that were seen as, wow, they're so intelligent, they're amazing. Did you communicate this to them as directly as you are? I did right now. I did. Because this is the relationship. This is the relationship I had with my students. I love it. My wife, who's also a lecturer, she's in pharmacy. She would often walk into my classroom and afterwards she said to me, How can you speak to your students that way? And I said, I can speak to them that way because we've built a relationship that way. We've built a relationship where I can call them out and they can call me out. Because the only way I'm going to get them to learn is if they are as excited about this as I am. And you're not doing it to be nasty, you're doing it to make them better. No, no, no. And I I needed them to see it. And so that is why from the first year, you know, one of the coldest truths I could tell them is that you chose to be here. You filled in that application form, you are in this classroom. One of the things I stole from the movie Dangerous Minds is when Michelle Pfeiffer says, There are no victims in this classroom. I say that to them. There are no victims in this classroom. You chose to be here, you've chosen your career. If you've chosen your career, you are the only one that can ensure that you are going to be successful in that career. I can only take you so far. Yes, I can teach you the base content. But if you don't want to learn, there is nothing that I can do. If you want to be a 50% dentist, then by all means, you will be a 50% dentist. But that's my failure as well, because I didn't get you to see the benefit in excelling. This I love this story. In the interview, did they ask you how do you teach? What's your teaching style? I feel like all this that you've doing that you're telling us about, it's extra. You decided you needed to do this. So no. It wasn't part of the job. It's not something that people are interviewed on. It's not a requirement job, right? You know, so later in my career at the dental school, I eventually became the clinical manager. And I sat in on a lot of interviews. And I got to witness someone from interview to then what would they be once selected for the job. And I can firmly say that an interview is no measure of how someone is going to perform in a job. At an interview, you are taking the best possible moment of that person. They have prepared for this, they are showing you the best part of themselves. Whether that is authentic or not, you cannot always gauge in an interview. You know, some people are amazing in an interview, but end up not being able to do the job. Others don't interview that well, but actually would be able to learn and get there. So the art of sussing that out in an interview is actually really difficult. And you start learning techniques, you move away from the general questions that are asked. You know, you go on to ChatGPT and check what questions ChatGPT gives people. And then you make sure you don't ask those questions. Because those are all the questions that people. So what I started doing was we started giving real life examples of incidences that occurred and how they would then tackle that. And I found that was a better way.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:53

Right? So asking someone about their teaching style in an interview, if they know they're applying for a teaching post, they've probably read up on teaching styles. Whether they're going to apply that, whether they know anything more than what they learnt about it, you can't tell that. It's very difficult. But that's where peer-to-peer interaction becomes so important. Because as a lecturer, you're not only teaching students, you're also sharing with your peers. And I had the opportunity of a lot of my peers came to my cause to see what I had done. They logged on to see what we had done. That's so cool. Worth it. And then they could take chunks. No, it did. It did. Because, but that was that was the aim. That was the goal.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

You know, it was never about being the best. Oh, it is going to be amazing. And everybody else is. Um, you know, it was everyone knew that I belonged to a group. It was funny because the group of lectures that we were, we were also, we were really close friends. Um, there was a year when we got a an award at one of the functions. We're called the Suicide Squad.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:08

Because we were really supportive, we were really cool, but we were also really strict. Because at the end of the day, you're working on a human being. You know, so we're gonna have fun, we're gonna learn together. But when you are in that clinic, you need to understand you're working on someone's mother, someone's father, someone's sister, someone's brother. You know, and when we were training, we were always taught the daughter rule or the sister rule. Treat this patient as if they were your daughter, treat this patient as if they were your sister. How would you treat them? That's how you treat the patient. Because it's very easy for students to lose that compassion. You know, they are so high-strung on the quota system that they have and that they have to do this procedure and that procedure, that someone stops being a human to them. There's another quota to the point where you you go to the student and the student will say, This is my endopatient. Sure. Uh no. Uh please introduce your patient to me. This is Mr. So-and-so. Yes, they require a root cadal treatment on tooth, whatever, but they are not, this is my endo patient. Yeah.

unknown 1:09:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:23

You know? So it's the soft skills. And how did students did students engage with you nicely? Were they skills? Some afraid of you. How did you get along with students? So well, everyone's nice to your face, right? Yeah. So I think that I should ask the students what they you probably need to ask my students. I think that perhaps maybe I was in everyone's cup of tea. Yeah. Because I was kind, I was compassionate, but I was also straight.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:51

So if you came to my lab more than 15 minutes late, I put a broomstick through the door. You would not enter my lab.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

Um, if you were disrespectful, you are out. Because as fun as you want the environment to be for learning, you have to control it as well. With a can you give examples of disrespect? I mean, do students disrespect the lecturers. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Anything stand out? Um, you know, students, you you have students who would purposely try and trip their lecturers. Trip them. So physically. Not physically, in that, you know, they would try and ask you a question hoping that you don't know the answer. Or you did have now and then you would have the rude student who would just not listen. Um and as much as you are compassionate, you are empathetic, you try and understand the background of where where is this coming from, but you do need to maintain the rules. You set the rules of engagement, and those rules must be followed. And I think in any in any environment that you're in, beyond when I became a manager, it was the same type of environment that I wanted. Now, as a practice, as a clinical director, it's the same environment. You set the rules of engagement, the rules with which everyone has to work within. We can be compassionate, we're going to have fun, but there are certain things that cannot be compromised on. And you have to understand that. Get you.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:16

Yeah. I'll I'll give you some feedback because I know some of your students. And um they actually tried to elicit some change within the I wouldn't sort of the social structure, but just, you know, the the infrastructure of where they used to sit and things like that. And they found you very engaging. Um they did say that you are a very approachable person, but also at the same time, they did say like you you have to be respected. And for me, I think that is sort of synonymous with the person in a managerial post. You can have fun in whatever it is, but you gotta have that level of respect to know when it's time for academia, that's what it has to be. So I think you used the wrong word.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:01

I that sounds like more of a leadership role than a managerial, because a manager can just manage things. It sounds like the feedback you've gotten from these students are that they could engage with you, but they knew not to cross a line.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's basically what I was saying. Yeah. Um So Yash was getting all excited when you were talking. You said I'm getting so excited. Okay. Um I was getting nauseous, to be honest. Um this leads me to my next question. I mean, it's difficult in itself working in the mouth. It's more difficult working on a tooth in that mouth. And then you chose level 10 of that difficulty working within the tooth of that mouth, the soul of the tooth. I hated endodontics. I hated the community and with you. They talk about why doesn't Dr. Yak do endo? Why endo? What made you want to choose that form of a profession where you need to look into the soul of an object? It's like the Samsung of the Speaker.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:01

I was gonna ask the same thing. Yeah. Well done. I I think it was the challenge. It was the challenge of endodontics that presented itself. That one, each and every tooth is unique, right? And like I said earlier, much earlier, that I was never meant for a desk job. The monotony of a desk job would kill me. It's the same with my treatments. That the type of work I do in dentistry, you'll find is work where each patient is unique. It's different every time. And endo is exactly that. It ticks all my boxes. One from childhood, I want it to help people. Endo helps people in that it alleviates a type of pain that no one else can alleviate, right? That type of pain, someone needs to. No, of course. It's like one of the few emergencies in the industry. So it is so fulfilling to be able to alleviate that pain. Two, every tooth is different. So every time I get into a root canal system, it excites me because it's different. I don't know how many canals I'm going to find. And now I'm at a point where I don't get the easy stuff anymore. You guys make sure of that. So what comes to me is is tricky, it's difficult. And I cannot tell you that when I, and my assistant would probably, if she was sitting here, she'd say that I go into a different mindset when I'm doing my root canal treatments. I'm also probably at my holiest state when I'm doing root canal treatments. But there is no greater time when I am praying that much. Because I firmly believe a lot of my gifts come from God. And some of the things I've been able to do, I don't think is human. So I attribute my gift to God every single day. Before every treatment, I ask him for help. During every treatment, I ask him for help. And some may say it's coincidence, some may say no, it's just talent, you're being full of nonsense. But I swear there are times where I cannot find that MB2. And I would have tried. And I'll close my eyes for a moment and be like, right, God, we need to do this. This is not for me. This is for this patient. We need to help them, we need to get them pain-free. I'm not going to find this, we're not going to get that. So let's work. Open my eyes, and two minutes later, that file slips in. It's ridiculous. Most will tell me that, Ivy, no, you just took a moment and you took a break, and now you are refocused. Either way, it's a win for me. Yeah. It allows me to stay calm when we get through the end though.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:38

I can I can sort of uh reiterate that experience because I've watched you work on a friend doing a root canal treatment, and you use a microscope and there's a screen there, so I could see everything that you were seeing. And you mean you know how much I hate endodontics, but it was fun to actually watch you like working on this screen. It was like amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:02

Have you guys heard of this concept called a flow state? Like, yeah, uh you know, athletes get into it. We we're golfers, whatever, you're in that in the zone and you you're flowing. What you were describing, and I think you mentioned it, you you said you're your holiest when you're working in a root canal system. I think you're probably just in a flow state and in the zone, right? Is that another way of of phrasing it? Like, everything else just zones out. Everything else just doesn't matter. That's so cool. It's me and that tooth. I never thought I'd I'd I'd feel uh I'd f find somebody that feels this way about root canals, but that's so cool. We need those people in our lives, definitely. But I think you know, it's also I mean, the mouth already is such a personal thing for someone, right? And 90% of the patients that come to me hate me when they walk through the door. Still. So and people would say that, you know. Oh, I hate dentists, oh I'm so scared, oh, I don't want to be here. But they all know they need to be there because they're in pain or they have something that needs to be sorted out. So a large part of what I believe is that if people see my excitement, they can feel it.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:08

Yeah, you can feel it.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:09

I mean, you can say and you can speak all you want, but people read your energy. I'm telling you, I felt it, yeah. And if you, if someone feels your energy and the effort that you're putting in to do this, they immediately at peace. They are calm, they get through it. So most of my patients actually fall asleep while I'm doing their root canals. They it's quite fun. The the snorers are usually quite fun. Um, because my assistant cannot keep a straight face when someone starts snoring.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:37

But but I'm I'm happy because then I know the patients come. They're comfortable, they trust me with doing this. And then I'll wake them up when we're done. But they sense it because I've had patients telling me, like, we have had difficulty, and I'll I always take my patients through their treatment afterwards. They'll say, Yes, doc, we knew that you had difficulty at that point because your breath quickened. And I was like, I was wearing a mask. I thought I was poker facia. They were like the eyes were closed, but that's how observant your patient is. You know, and and with a lot of patients that come to me, they'll say, My dentist was frustrated. I could tell he didn't want to do this. I could tell he was having difficulty. Like, so why didn't my dentist refer me earlier? And that's why I think that's why I place so much of emphasis on my teaching as well. So you left, did you leave Witz? So happened there. So I've left Witz now. So let's explain that. Because a lot I get asked this a lot. Yeah. Wits was my life. I was going to retire as an academic.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:44

Right? At some point, I had made the decision to move from a primarily teaching role to a management role. That was when I became the clinical manager. And that was rooted in me, right? I think I've done very good as a lecturer, but now I need to look at the bigger picture of dental school. I want to improve the bigger picture of dental school. And that's why I went into management. To look at the equipment, look at the clinics, to give all the other lecturers the equipment and the tools and the environment so that they could be the best that they could for the students, knowing the challenges, being there for the longest time. And that's why I went into management. And I think we did quite well. I spent money. I spent lots of how tech health money, but for the right reasons. And we upgraded that clinic and we got things going, and I was really impressed with who I was. But at that same time, I was at Think part-time, right? I was in private practice part-time. Think is a is a private practice. Think is a private practice. And it was important for me to be in private practice because private practice fulfilled that part of what I did as well. And that was growing, and that was requiring more time. And it got to a point where I had to make a decision. Do I keep my path where I am and have dedicated 13 years to the university, or do I allow myself to explore something new? And the conversation of going back to private practice really started as a hypothetical situation. I send the owner of Think, uh, Dr. Sam Dander, I sent him a message and I said, hypothetically, if I had to make a choice to come back to Think, would there be a place for me? And I think Sam saw a lot more potential for me than what I saw for myself at that point. And we had a conversation and walked through. And after one conversation with him, I went home and I said to my wife, I think I'm ready for the next phase. I've done what I can in academia. I'm I'm satisfied with what I've done. Yes, I could do more, but I think for my growth, it's now time to shift. And that decision was made over a weekend. Yeah, I like making weekend decisions. Yeah. So I made that decision in January of this year. And in January, I resigned. That's twenty in 2025. 2025. Yeah. And yeah, I left the university at the end of February. They had asked at the time if I would stay on as an honorary lecturer. So we're in the process of me becoming an honorary lecturer for bits. Um, because I'm keen to keep it. Yeah, that'll be a bus for them also for the university. Because and one of the things I always said that I am so open to helping them. If anyone needs help, just call me and I'll still walk you through. I'm not cutting ties. I just need it's time for me to grow in a different space.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:54

And so for the first time after a long time, I went from being completely comfortable knowing what I'm doing. I'm one of the smartest people in the room, doing this, to just someone who was in a room, completely out of my comfort zone. But something I said to my colleagues was, I'm uncomfortably comfortable. Why was it not a comfort zone for you? Because, you know, I had reached a point when I was at the university where I was comfortable in my endo treatments. You know, I was pushing on, I was fine there. I was so comfortable with the processes and protocols and everything that I had put in from a management point of view that things were flowing. Things were flowing. So I stopped growing.

unknown 1:22:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:40

Because then the environment was growing, but I stopped growing. And I became complacent and I became comfortable. But that's not the life for me. What's different about private? So in private practice, going back to private, it was going from only doing root canal treatments to say, right, you know, we're going to go now beyond root canal treatments. And I am going to make sure that anything that I offer, I want to do it at the best level, like I would for my end dose. So there was a lot of learning that I had to do on the digital dentistry side. Yes, I kept up to date on a theoretical basis, but I wasn't doing this day-to-day. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't doing any crown preps. I wasn't really interacting in terms of diagnosis in that with patients. Only diagnosis I was doing was really for endo. And if I was going to start treating patients, I needed to get my shit together fairly quickly. Yes. And and so that was, you know, that it was a huge change for me. Coming into a private practice environment, very different mindset from a public sector environment. You know, and going into a role of becoming a clinical director of a space, huge change in my mindset. And the reason I say that is within the government sector, labor laws, unions, you know, it's things work very differently. In the private sector, the wheels turn a lot faster. Results have to happen a lot faster. The way that you approach things happens a lot faster. And I'll shell shock the first week. You know, in on the government side, if I had to make a decision, things would take a while. On the private side, if I discussed something with someone, you know, within a few hours the results were on the table. And I wasn't used to that. And so it was a change in my own mindset. But but I loved it because for the first time, I wasn't afraid of my own efficiency. Because believe it or not, I got into trouble a lot of times for being too efficient.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:53

And for trying to trying to improve a process, not realizing that I was overstepping on someone else's mandate. Yeah, bureaucracy, red tape, all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So so you know, people would sometimes perceive that as Ibi trying to take my job. Ibi is trying to show me up, Ibi is trying to make it look like we're not doing our jobs. Ibi wasn't trying to do that. Ibi was trying to do the best he could in a space. But I had to learn to stay in my lane. So going from an environment, an environment like that to one where, no, Ibi, you've got to spread your wings now, you've got to share these ideas, you've got to push. Yes. It took a bit of time. It took a bit of time. So I think now I'm getting to a point where I'm getting a little bit more comfortable, but I'm also getting to a point, like I said, you know, I learned my lesson that you don't go into adventure guns blazing. So this time I took the time to learn the environment, to to really interact with people, to see where everyone is, and then to learn how to get the best out of people.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:01

I get you. I get you.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:03

You know, because that is that is what a leader does. Yeah. That you're not managing the place to function whilst you're there, you're growing people to function in your absence. Okay. So what do you do there now? Like what's uh you you're practicing and you also Yeah. So so so at the practice, I'm still consulting patients. Um that that is one of the main focuses, but then it's also ensuring practice success. So it's the operational management side that I oversee as well. That was a large chunk of what I did in the clinical manager role at the university. And so for the practice, that was um an advantage to them because I came with that experience and it was something that I could offer them. And a big part of your practice is endo, obviously, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um So you see, do you get a lot of referrals from general dentists? Well, you know, uh endo complications, root canal complications. I think um so for a lot of people, many of my colleagues don't yet know that I've returned to private practice. A lot of them still think I'm at the university.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:08

So as people are getting to know they're starting to repeat. So YACS practice um is is one is really one of those really high-end practices that see the best for their patients. They reached out to me years ago saying, look, we'd like you to help us with some of our endodontic treatments. And so I've been working with the practice for a long time and I appreciate their approach to their patients.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:35

You know, it's something that's admirable. So like very self-sacrificial. We drive our patients to the But now, I mean, look, uh as somebody who's who and I know it's not an official speciality in South Africa yet, but it is a recognized specialty overseas and in other jurisdictions and things. Endodontics is a very specialized field. And what happens is a lot of the time you'll be And you alluded to it earlier, you'll be seeing complex cases or cases where the dentist tried and failed. When patients come to you, are they not also a bit upset with the dentist for saying, well, why am I here at you now, Dr. Patel? Uh my dentist, you know, couldn't handle it now, and now you could probably charge me much more. Do you get that a lot? Or how do you handle those kind of cases? I think frustration bulls from not communicating. Right. So with a lot of the patients where they are frustrated, it's because there was an insufficient amount of information given to them initially. Before starting the root canal? Before starting the root canal. And one of the things I always say to my patients is that treatment is dynamic. We're working in a biological environment. As much as we plan, we need to account for changes during the way. So where something may have looked fairly straightforward at first, as your dentist proceeded, they then picked up that this is getting more complex. This is now beyond our scope. And it's in the best interest of the patient for someone more equipped to then deal with the particular case. And I say to patients, you need to respect your dentist for that. And that is where I also stay in my lane to say, I'm going to do this root canal treatment for you. And then you are going to return to your dentist who will continue with your treatment. I like the way you framed it because you sort of explain to the patient why they were at you while at the same time not bringing down the previous clinician, right? Yeah. If you could advise dentists, like what what would you tell them to say to a patient before they start a root canal? The basics. Because I feel like may that may be lacking in some cases. Be honest. Be honest with your patients and give them the possible complications ahead of time. Because when you explain things ahead of time and you give your patient the possible complications ahead of time, they will accept that. Anything that you say afterwards is an excuse. And I think that's one of the key things across dentistry in any field in medicine for that matter. That that initial conversation. But are the patients really informed? You know, because I've I've I have an information and informed consent sheet that my patient signed for me. But I know that many of my patients don't actually read that. Yeah. Most. You know, so they've given me consent. Yes, great. I've fulfilled the legal requirement. On paper, yeah. But have they really given me consent? Do they really know what's going on? And that's why that that that conversation is important. And I think that the industry in South Africa is strangulated by our funders. That for the practices who solely work on medical aid funding, they are pushed to the point where every second is of the essence. And so perhaps maybe the conversations don't occur as they should. And which sometimes gets people into water. The other thing I will say is that I don't believe that a dentist should ever be ridiculed or talked down upon with a patient. That regardless of how a specific truth may show up at my door in a patient, I don't know what the circumstance was at that initial visit. I don't know what the dentist's challenges were on that day. I cannot fault that dentist for what has now come to me because I don't know the audience circumstance. And you know, we have a reputation uh in the public. Yeah, yeah, I think I shared this with you. Like um 94.7, Anella and the club, they once had a whole segment where they were talking about professions that speak badly about their colleagues. And they asked, you know, callers to call in and talk about it. Dentists were at the top of the list, plumbers, electricians, where so you know, there's a reputation that when you go to one dentist to say, Oh, who did the previous job? Why did they do that? You know? Um, so I love that you're mentioning this because I fully agree with you. Even if you felt that somebody's done something wrong, you don't express it openly to the patient, you know, as a as a criticism. Um because you're just bringing the whole profession into disrepute, right? Everybody will think, look at these dentists, they can't agree with one another. Absolutely, because my belief is that no one goes into a treatment wanting to do harm. I mean, I I would want to believe that no one is going to start a routinal treatment knowing that they're going to cause harm to the patient. You are trying your best in that circumstance.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:54

And and for me, the fact that someone has referred the patient to me tells me that they took the step back. This is not working. Let's send to someone who's going to get this done right. Yeah. And and so they they deserve that benefit. You know, and and that is that is the conversation that I'll have with the patient. And it's important because once the patient also understands why the treatment was difficult to begin with, they then understand that their patient did the right thing. Their doctor did the right thing. So do you use microscopes and things like that in your practice? So it's a must. I I cannot work without it. So so with the type of root canals that I have to do, I need to use 3D imaging so that I can diagnose exactly what's going on before I start. I need to use the microscope. So under high magnification, I can see exactly what's going on. Because the space that I work in is a 0.1 millimeter space. There's not much room for error. When I work, I'm looking at longevity in mind that after I'm done, I have an entire treatment plan that's going to follow this patient. So I need to give the dentist the best possible scenario for this patient. So I need to leave as much truth structure as I can. I need to do my root canal in a way that it's going to function for the dentist. And I think edodontics is one of those specialties where you are constantly under the microscope because any treatment that I do is going to be checked by the dentist the patient's returning to.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:27

So if you want a profession that keeps you on your toes, you know, because you're the foundation guy. No, of course. Everyone's building on. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And if there are challenges, then you relay that to the dentist. Actually, this is as far as we could get in this case. Because as much as I would want to say that I get 100% success in every case, that that's not always the case. There are cases where, you know, I would call it and I would say to the dentist, longevity-wise, we can do this root treatment, but this tooth is not going to last. I actually think you should look at an alternative for your patient. So, Ibbi, are you in a good space now? What's next? So what's next? So let's put it this way: there will never be a next after endodontics. Right. Whatever I choose to do, endo will always be at the core. Whether it's teaching, whether it's practice, whether it's even going back to a university. Um I love South Africa, so I don't see myself ever leaving South Africa.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:31

Good.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:32

And I'm still quite firm on elevating endo within South Africa. So even beyond the university, that is why I choose to still give my time to teaching endodontics. You do a lot of teaching, you're always lecturing. Um I lecture around the country because I want to uplift people. I want people to do better endo. Yes, that's probably going to decrease the referrals to me. I'm okay with that because I'm looking at the bigger picture.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:00

The better everyone else is in endo. I don't think it's very noble. Do you understand what he's saying? No, I totally understand, but I I wanted to just I don't think it's going to decrease the referrals to you. In fact, it'll probably increase the more complex cases that come to you. And you you'll be fine, right? Look, uh again, yeah. I believe that what is written for you in terms of your provision is what you're going to get. Um There's plenty of work to go around. There's plenty of work to go around. The universe works in that way. Put out good and good will come back to you. No one ever went fine life by being selfish. Yeah. I I like that. I like that. And what do you do besides lecturing and doing is everything just endo or and dentistry or any other what do you do for fun? Um because that's fun for him. That's why I didn't phrase it actually. I didn't phrase it for the thing. So work is fun, right? Um I'd like I have not worked a day in my life since I went back to private practice. Yeah. Every day is one fine. But apart from that. What do you hate? What is there anything about the job that you dislike? No, genuinely, because there has to be something. Like Edmund, tell us something. I do not enjoy all parts of dentistry. Yeah. Like what? So if you talk to me about the surgical part of dentistry, I'll fall asleep. It's not my passion. Like antagonists of each other. Surgery is not my passion. But this is it. I don't want the easy answer. I'm talking about what like in your day-to-day job, what do you do? Like stuff that you actually do, there must be something. Like, do you not like the admin part, or is that outsourced in the practice to like So No, the admin part in that is fine. What I the hardest part of my job, of my previous jobs as well, is probably conflict management.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:45

And um I think dealing with humans and being empathetic to their circumstance while still enforcing the rules, that can sometimes be hard. What about telling patients how expensive their treatment is going to be? Isn't that a difficult part of the job? So I know clinicians don't like having that conversation. That's why I'm not sure. Look, it is a difficult, it is a difficult part of the job, but I think it's about how your patients see the value of what you do. I've learned over time, and thankfully this is a concept that I've learned within the practice that I'm in as well, is that patients will only complain about price when they don't see the value in what you are doing. And I often use the hair salon as an example of this. You know, someone can go into a hair salon and spend good money in there because they are bought in what they're going to get out of it. You know, they they value what they're going to get out of it. A lot of the times in dentistry, people don't value what you're giving them. Because a lot of the times, if someone is coming to you solely because they're in pain, it's a grudge purchase. They need to come to you because they're in pain.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:58

They're not. How do they see the value? Because they're coming to you in case. So that's your job as a dentist. Give us tips because I see dentists complaining all the time that patients don't see the value in us. They expect us to they expect their medical aid to cover everything. And if anything is more than we are greedy dentists that are just charging a lot so we can try fancy. It's about it's your job as a dentist to create value for that patient. Or show them the value. Or similarly, I mean, for me in Endo, it's my job to make my patients see the value of retaining that tooth versus removing it and going for another treatment option. And that is sometimes unspoken and spoken. Unspoken in how you present yourself, in how you come across your patient, the environment that your patient is walking into. And then how you actually portray that to your patient. It's the same way as the teaching to the students. You have to generate that excitement. You have to generate that passion for them wanting to be healthier. If you fail to do that, then of course it's going to be a purchase of, oh, my medical aid is not covering this. So initially, I think when I was much younger, yes, I did have a lot of difficulty talking to my patients about the cost of treatment. Now it's not the cost of treatment, it's right. What are we going to invest in with this treatment? How are you, you know, you now choosing, because that's the truth of it, right? In modern-day living, if you are spending on your dentistry, then you are not spending that money elsewhere. So why should you spend on dentistry and not elsewhere? That's what I'm getting. Makes sense. Yeah. Because again, if you know if someone walks into a cult practice, the dentist is just matter-of-fact. They don't seem excited to be there. The patient hates them walking through the door. The dentist is now pointing, you need one, two, three. First of all, we don't even know if the patient trusts the dentist in what they say. So they don't trust them in what they're saying. Now you present them with a quotation. Oh, that's too expensive. I don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:09

So, so yeah, look, I mean, dentistry is it's not an easy profession in that you don't get to sit behind a desk and write on paper or type behind a computer every day. As a dentist, you are working with someone who is coming in with baggage. So you first you are their psychologist. You are diag you are diagnosing what's going on. So that's your health professional. That's the core. Then you need to create something. So now you're an architect, now you're an engineer. And then you need to sell it. Now you're a salesman. You know, so it's all these different aspects that come into play. And I think that's what people need to know when they first get into dentistry, and that's what people need to know when they're in dentistry as well. And before they even get into it. And before they even get into it. I love how you describe dentistry. Get into it. It's so difficult. It's all these roles that you play, and that's how you get the fulfillment out of. Psychologist, diagnostician, architect, artist, artist, engineer, engineer. And salesman. Salesperson. Uh yeah. Dentistry. And and and I mean you gotta be a little bit crazy about So if somebody comes to you and says, I want to do dentistry, I'm thinking of it because I've seen, you know, Think Clinic looks great and Bitford View Dental Care looks awesome. And yak is look at how handsome he is, and you know, I want to drive his car and all that stuff. What would you say to that person? Look, it's a conversation that I used to have openly with my first-year students. Okay. And from the very first lecture, I would ask them, why did you choose dentistry? So first you sit with people who chose dentistry because they didn't get into medicine, right? That is a very fine line to thread because either you are going to tread on the path of liking dentistry, or you are going to hate your decision for the rest of your life. And if you don't change in time, you are screwed. Then you get those who are in love with the lifestyle that dentists lead.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:19

You know, that, oh, dentists drive nice cars. Dentists are comfortable. I've heard that dentists go and play golf every Wednesday afternoon. I also heard that. But I'm still waiting for that invite. So they fall in love with the lifestyle. But again, they either get lucky and they enjoy the dentistry, or they were never meant to be at dentistry. They fall in love with the perception of the lifestyle. Because we know we know that's not really the lifestyle, right? For of the majority of dentists. Like they perceive that dentists are playing golf on Wednesday, and as you said, we're not, you're not. Yak isn't. Okay, so that's the other group. And then And then you get the ones who choose it at a point in their life where they maybe don't know better. And that's the group I talk a lot to because, like I say, you are choosing, you choose your subjects for matric when you're in standard seven. In standard seven, you are not looking at the greater picture, right? You are looking at people in your life who have had the biggest impact. And based on their impression on you, you choose. Then you kind of get to matric and you work hard and you choose your career. Again, at that point, you are in school. You've had no experience of the world. There is no real life experience to give you that backing of your decision. In most cases, people are going on again, what they're seeing family members do. A lot of people base it off their own parents, a lot of people base it off what they see on television. I've had many people say they chose medicine because they love Grey's anatomy. Um, that's how people make their decisions. And then they come to university and that's when they start realizing. And one of my biggest advices to students is that it is okay to leave your degree. Yes. That's so good. Just because you've made it to second year does not mean you have to stick it out till you qualify. If you already know, because some people know that this is not for them.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:26

I once had a student who was in dentistry and without giving too much away, so they had family members who were dentists, and but they did not enjoy dentistry. They hated it. I could see they hated it, they were miserable in it, but they had to stick it out because of the pressure coming from the family and that they were too scared to speak out. Indians. Indians. Yeah, stop it. But the thing is, eventually, eventually, it got to a point where she broke. And she went to what she loved. And I was happy for her because I don't think that happens to everyone. I have colleagues who complete dentistry, who stay in dentistry, but hate dentistry. Yep. That was me. That was me. And and that's why and that's why I say it is never too late to make a change. In 2025, with all the AI around us, you can be whoever you want to be, even if you are a dentist. I think that conversation that you described that you used to have with your first years, you're doing a great service to them and to patients. Because nobody wants a miserable dentist, the one that hates seeing a patient walk in the door, and vice versa. Nobody wants to be that miserable dentist and has to live like this forever. So maybe, you know, go back to a bits as an honorary lecture and just do the first year course. Just weeding out, faltering out. I don't want to say weeding out, because those people also, it's not that they're bad, it's not a bad thing. They might thrive somewhere else. You know, it's not like they're failures. But but that's the point. It's that they are depriving themselves of living their best life.

unknown 1:47:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:08

You're saving them and redirecting them to what their purpose is. We thank you for your service. We thank you. I mean, that's a I'm I'm not joking. That's a brilliant, it's a really important service. Yeah, I don't know if we'll be finishing off now. Okay, all right. So he's thanking you for your service. I also just want to thank you from my side for taking the misery out of dentistry for me. If I had to do root canals myself, I I I'd probably give up. I mean, there's up in private, my own private practice. I probably did one root canal where patients refused to go to anyone else to do this root canal. It was anterior, as a one-one. Promise you, I felt like nauseous afterwards. I was like dizzy had to sit down. I was proud of it, but I thought to myself-I think you need to check your inner middle early.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:47

Yeah, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:48

A lot of nausea happening in the centre. I get uh motion sickness very easy. Um but Dr. Patil, thank you so much. Um, I this is a parting note, I don't refer my patients to you because I don't know what your endodontic skill is. I've only seen you treat one of my friends. But I would continuously refer to you just based on the human that you are. And you're just genuinely a nice guy. And I know that you have the best interest, not just for the patient or your colleague, but the profession in its entirety. And that's why I have the utmost respect for you. Thank you for being on our show.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:25

Thank you so much. Beautiful. Thanks so much. Anything you want to say in closing, or are you happy? Um I just want to say to everyone who is going to watch this, that reflect on those words of Prof. Setsa. That every day of your life should be an adventure. The day you wake up and you are no longer enjoying what you are doing in any aspect of what you are doing, seriously take the time to reconsider. It's never too late. Agreed. Beautiful. Thanks so much, Ibbi. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, guys. Thanks so much.