SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome back everyone. Today we've got um somebody I call the dentist to the stars. I think other people also call him that. I've seen it being being said online. Dr. Norman Kai. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Thank you, guys. It's so nice to be. It's such an honor to be chatting to such great dentists such as you are.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Norman, you've been well, yeah, Yak's the actual the real dentist here. But anyway, you've been in practice for decades now. 45 years.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

45 years. Yeah, I'll be 65 soon.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

I mean, when did you start practicing? At the age of like 10 or something. 25. 25. Shh. Hold on. That are you 45 years? So how I mean, how old are you? I mean, can I?

SPEAKER_00 0:37

I'll be I'm 65. Yeah. So I've been in the profession 45 years. I started my career in 1979 at Vitz. Yeah. Qualified in '84. And in those days we had to do military service. I did two years in the military service and then went straight into private practice. There was no humming and howing and messing around. But you know, those were the days when you could get overdrafts. A young dental student, you I could go into the bank and the banker would be, you know, bankroll me. So it was easy. Today it's very tough with the guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Very, very tough to start squatting from scratch. Do you love being a dentist? I don't know if I'd use that word love. Um, I enjoy it. It's been good to me. There've been challenges. I've had some very rough times. Uh, but it's allowed me portability, mobility. It enabled me to emigrate. I took my young family to England in '93 when things were hairy here, you know, just before the democratic elections. Uh the whites were very panicky. And so I took my family to London. In those days, I could practice easily.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Oh, no, you're white, right? I'm just checking. I'm just making sure. I'm just making it. I'm on the border.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

What what's Kai? I mean, is it spelled?

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Is it Sahai or Kai, Kai, like the trans chi? Yeah. Um, it's an unusual surname. I'm obviously South African, but I'm Lebanese in ancestry. Okay. So my grandparents came from Lebanon. Uh, we are Christian, we're Catholic. Uh, I grew up with the Jews, I grew up with the Muslims, I grew up in Blumfantin. It was a very Afrikaans, verkrampter place in the days of apartheid. But you know what? I'm the better man for it. I have no prejudice. My parents taught me to get on with everyone, respect everyone, colour, culture, creed, until today. I mean, there's so much problems in the world, all based on bloody religion, that um, thank God I'm brought up in a very non-prejudicial way.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

So I'm very grateful to my parents for that. So Lebanese then, because sometimes you know when I look at your posts and you the shirtless there on the beach in uh in uh in Greece, it it almost looks like you're India.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

You look like uh very I I love the sun, I worship the sun. Yeah, and that was one of the reasons I came back from London. I couldn't take that cold, that misery, that grey, that wet, that dark. It worked on me. I actually it actually affected me. I I suffered from sad seasonal affective disorder, you know. I needed the sun. And today I'm privileged enough to be able to spend at least an hour or so in the sun every morning. So I get up at five, I have my coffee, I go to the gym, I come back and I sit in a coffee shop in the open air, and I just reflect, reflect on my life, reflect on my blessings. I keep a gratitude journal. Um, I've done business development and I use that time to reflect and you know, just plan my life, plan my future.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Yeah, that's brilliant. I mean, you definitely don't look your age. You thank you. You look like you're in your late 40s at most. I would my man. I would say we'll we'll delve deeper into what your your resume is, including your diet. Yeah. But just on that note, you were talking about going to London at that stage. I know we would ask in around you with this interview. But was it easy to just go into London like that?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Look, getting into a practice in London was easy, but it certainly wasn't easy emigrating with my wife. We were youngsters. We were we were in our early 30s, we had two toddlers. Uh, we had been brought up in a very privileged lifestyle, as you can imagine, during the apartheid years. So we were used to having servants and drivers and helpers and nannies. And so, but I was brave. It was very brave on our behalf. I took my wife and kids. Uh, I give full credit to my wife. She never battered an island, she never questioned my decision. I I gave up my practice and we emigrated. We went to London. I got a great job with an ex-South African. Two this day, I'm very friendly with him. In fact, I'll be seeing him next week. He's coming out for a visit. And I worked under the NHS, um, under my own uh number. But in those days, you could do NHS and private together, and I earned well. I worked hard, I earned well. It allowed us to travel. We experienced life in a different country, but it was tough. It was hard. Most of my friends were Jewish and they were all in North London, so that's where I settled. I'm still very friendly with them. They're my most amazing lifelong comrades and brothers. But when it came to Christmas or Easter, we were alone. You know, it wasn't like on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur or whatever, they all got together, they went to the shul, they had a community. We were alone. So my kids were a bit ruthless. Uh, I couldn't explain to them, they were two and four. I couldn't explain to them whether they were South African, whether they were British, whether they were Lebanese, whether, you know, it was becoming and they missed their grandparents. We come from enmeshed families. Both my wife and I come from incredibly close families. I mean, the Indian families are very similar to Middle Eastern families. So we found it tough, but we stood our ground and we managed to stick the six years out. We managed to all become British citizens, which today is the most valuable thing I've ever given my kids is their British passport. So much so that my kids teased me because for years after we came back to South Africa, every year on their birthdays to wrap up the British passport, and I gave it to Chelsea and Norman, and I said, This is your inheritance. Yeah. And it's proved right. Yeah. Did you did you get citizens? Yes, of course. Me, my wife, my children, and their children will get it. Wow. So it's been an invaluable experience for me. And I look back with gratitude because it took it taught us tolerance, it taught us humility, it taught us that family life is not just togetherness, not just being physically together, but cooperating, mutual respect, you know, going through hardships together. It was really tough.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

What was the goal uh leaving South Africa and going to the UK? To get that citizenship or was the plan to live?

SPEAKER_00 6:39

No, the plan was to live. We were we were terrified. We didn't know what was going to go on here. We thought a revolution is coming. My parents, with all respect, encouraged us to go. They said, look, you've got to get out of here for your children's sake. You can always come back. We never burnt our bridges, thank God. We never took our kids off the school lists here. And we went knowing that we were emigrating for good. It was really hard. But we used to come back every year in December to this glorious weather and then have to go back in January. It was freezing, it was wet, it was raining, the kids were miserable, they had ear infections, they had throat infections. We were left all alone. It was really, really taxing, especially on my wife. Because I mean, as a dentist, what do we do? We sit in a cubicle and we look down a hole. And we're filling and drilling and billing and you know what I mean? We were I was relatively happy. But she had to go through the rigmarole of the ground, you know? Filling up your own car, taking the kids out of their car seats, taking them to shop, putting them back in their car seats. You know, it's funny, it's funny you mentioned filling your own car. We take that for granted. We take it for granted. Because the biggest story, I actually didn't know how to fill up my car at the beginning.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

No, I don't know how to, yeah. Yeah. But also, you know what, I prefer filling up my own car because you know why? Now you know what you do. No, nowadays when I go there, I never have cash on me. Oh. And you know, I want to tip the guys, and then you can't tip them, and I feel terrible. It's such a random thing, but I just I wish I could fill my own, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Oh, so you where where do you get the opportunity to fill your own car?

SPEAKER_03 8:06

No, I'm saying I wish I could. Because now we have to tip a guy, right? It's just such a random thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Okay, but why six years then? So what happened? You've got to live in in London consistently for five years minimum before you can apply for a British passport. So after the first three years, you get a stamp in your passport, which is called indefinite leave to remain, which gives you then access to live and work in London, but it doesn't give you citizenship. You have to be five years to the day. So the clock starts when you land, when you emigrate, and the clock ends exactly five years to the day. They're very pedantic. So we stayed for those five years, and we stayed an extra year, and we actually achieved our British passports. And then decided, let's come back. Yeah. We then decided, look, you know, we've had it, we've achieved it, we've traveled, but the kids need to know their grandparents, know their extended families. We missed the weather. And you realized that the country was okay? We realized it was reasonable. I mean, the people were still living well. We're still living well. Yeah. I mean, we're living in a very privileged, super privileged bubble. Um, but I'm not look, financially it wasn't the right decision. Okay. There's no question. You're coining it there in the UK. Well, I I was earning well. Yeah. I mean, 30 years ago, I was earning eight, nine thousand pounds a month. That's a lot of money. Um so I was earning well. I had a uh a home, which we sold, and I mean, we that was a mistake. Financially, we didn't do the right thing. I mean, to be wealthy in South Africa doesn't mean anything internationally, let's be honest.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

But to be wealthy in Sterling is something that uh you you can't laugh at.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

Yeah, the pound is strong.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Yeah, the pound is strong. And London's I I still love London. It's our favourite city. We go back every year. As it happens, my son used his British passport. He's gone back to London. He lives in Marleybone, he's got a home there, and so he's there. Um and we go back very often, at least once a year, and we love it. We love the British. What brought you back? The people.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

No, our family.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Yeah, my kim.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Our family. We wanted to be back uh in the sunshine with our family. Our kids went to Catholic schools when we got back because we are Catholic. Um it was just a fanny decision. My wife wasn't happy, you know. It it affected our marriage. You know, you've got to really be really rock solid for immigration to be successful. And ours was successful, but it took its toll. So we came back, we put our kids in good schools in Johannesburg, we came back to live close to our parents. And I'm not sorry. I mean, the our kids are stable, secure, drug-free, you know, good human beings. Yeah. Which I don't know if it would have happened in the UK. I mean, I'm not sure if Chelsea would have become a dentist if we stayed in the UK. Only the Lord knows where my son would have ended up because he was a bit of a rebel. But today, I'm grateful. I look at them and I know, well, we've done a good job. Yeah. Reasonable job.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

Yeah, well done. No, well, thank thankfully. You never know how it can go, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

You never know.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

So you mentioned Chelsea, what um becoming a dentist. What made you become a dentist? Like your parents, what did your parents?

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah, my parents were very influential. Where are you from? Tell us this other beginning. Okay, I'll be boring. In a small little dorpe. Do you know that word dorpy? Yeah. A little village, a hamlet called Jamestown. My parents used to run a little country. Where's Jamestown? In the Eastern Cape, yeah. Tiny little place near Ellewell North, near Elliot. Yeah. You're good. My dad was born in Elliot.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

And uh they had uh the uh Kai Central Hotel, that's what it was named in Jamestown. And it was a hotel, and my mum and dad r uh, you know, were running the hotel, and I was born in a room right next to the kitchen. My mother was cooking until the last second of labor, and all of a sudden uh they called the midwife and they took her next door to a room, basically next to the kitchen, and I was born in a room with a midwife, no hoo-ha, no epidural, no scissors, no anything. And I was born at lunchtime, and my wife, my mom's always teased me. She said, you know, you've never been late for a meal since the day you were born. You were born next to a kitchen at lunchtime, and that was the you've never been late for a meal since then. So I was born there. Ironically, your brother's name is Emil. Easy Meal.

SPEAKER_03 12:19

Yeah, that's right. That's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

He's the he was born in hospital in Bloomfantine because we had then moved to Bloomfantine. And uh, so we moved from Jamestown to a bigger Dorfby called Redersburg in the middle of the free state. And then, of course, we hit the big city. Bloomfantine was then considered a major city, and my dad ran hospit um, not hospitals, liquor stores, bottle stores. Uh, that was in the days before Pick and Pay had licenses to sell liquor. So he was successful. Uh, he was an influential businessman, he built the first uh shopping mall in the in in Bloomfantine in Free State. Uh, they were very affluent people. I was privileged, but they were ordinary people, but they lived extraordinary lives. They taught me the most unbelievable lessons. You know, I am what I am because of what I've learned from my parents, as I'm sure you are. You know, they were solid. Can you break that down for us? What do you mean? How were they extraordinary? You know, they taught us that in the world of plastic, you need to show steel, you need to be platinum. They taught us uh value system values. You know, they said always speak cleanly, uh think clearly, act sincerely, uh never compromise your integrity. You know, these salt of the earth basic human values, uh obviously they taught us, even though being in the liquor business and liquor was freely available, none of us drank. I'm one of four. We never drank, we never smoked. It was a very carefree, stress-free childhood. I mean, when I look back and I and I see the stress that young parents are under today, stress was not even a word that came into our vocabulary. You know, I had a wonderful childhood, very secure. I was in one school from grade north to Metric. Um, we traveled, we went on holidays every year, we had family traditions and rituals which bind family together. And I think that's what success is. I I've, you know, I've always said my dad and mom never taught us how to live. They just lived and allowed us to watch them. And it was such a privilege, such an honor to see how they conducted their life with such dignity, such politeness, such kindness, such uh charity, that today I I f I fret for them. I really, really miss them. I lost them, and then a part of my life has been gone since out of my life. Uh they were incredibly, incredibly enmeshed within who I am today.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah, well, it does translate, you know, to uh w we were speaking earlier about how my interpretation of who you are with me first coming into Joe Burg was your and you as a person besides your practice was synonymous with like, you know, quality and moral values in dentistry. Oh, really? Yeah, and um and I can see that's how you are with Chelsea as well. So you hold family values, you know, and core uh close to you. Thank you, thank you. Which is brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

When I think of you, I think of warmth. Like you're a warm person. So maybe that might explain why you know the UK didn't work out, I guess. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah, they're not warm. Yeah. I love the British people, they're a civilized society, but warmth is not their attribute.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Yeah, you know why I think of that? Because when I was at one of these law firms where we had a a UK home base, right? A headquarters, and I used to work in Santon, and one of the guys came over on traineeship or whatever you call it, and he said to me, the interesting thing that he noticed about Joburg is that everybody greets you. Like when you walk in the city. Absolutely. And I had said to him, you know what, Joburg has a re reputation for being the coldest, one of the more coldest cities in the country, you know? But it's just uh it's all about perspective.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

South Africans are warm. Yeah. That's what I love about us. The South Africans in in London are so well liked. They so they headhunted because of their integrity, their honesty, their um business ethics. No, absolutely we're hardworking and we we're respectful and we're humble and we get on with everybody, and we're very warm.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

That's what I think I would miss. You know, you mentioned your parents and then were encouraging you guys to leave at that stage. You know, similarly, here uh I I know people family that have encouraged us to pack up and move. Absolutely. I said, I'll miss the people here. You will. Uh and I feel it is a brave thing to actually emigrate here because it's very brave. You know, it's tough. No, nobody. Okay. So you didn't think of getting into the hoteling business or hotel.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

No, no. Like a no, when I was younger, my parents always uh strongly uh suggested to me a medical degree. Why? You know, I suppose in those days being a doctor or a lawyer or an accountant was it still is. You know, there's my son the doctor, there's my son the accountant.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

Okay, you think it still is? All right.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Oh, it is, definitely. Although today you're encouraging your kids to go into IT because of AI, you know, it's different today. I mean, medicine today isn't what it was. So I was brought up believing that either law or medicine would be good for me. My principal at the time said I should do law. Right. Uh, he said I could speak the hind legs off a donkey and I should go into law. And I was just interested in medicine, actually. Dentistry never entered into the realm of my thinking. Uh, but we did have family friends that had dentists, and my parents obviously did a bit of discussing, and then they planted the seed. They said, you know, you want to be a family man, you don't want to be called out at all hours of the night. Those were the days when doctors did house calls. You don't want to be dealing with life and death. It may sound simple reasons, but it twisted my mind. And I thought, well, I'll give dentistry a try, you know. I wasn't a piano player, I wasn't very digitally uh, you know, dexterous, but it was something I've learned over the time. It caused me a lot of stress, the the as you know, the five and a half years at dental school. It was tough, tough, tough. The the tutors were horrific. Yeah you know, it was ruthless. Um I I can't say I had I enjoyed my university life. I really, really worked hard to get on. But I had a successful university life. Um I I still mix with the students that I qualified with. Um I became president of the Dental Student Council. I enjoyed popularity, and I've got lifelong friends. Lifelong. 45 years we've been in friends and tight friendship. Uh I'm probably the only one still in South Africa. They're all over the world, highly successful. They're all very wealthy people today. I'm the poorest of the lot because I mean I've I've earned my money in Rands. They're in sterling and dollars and Australian dollars and Canadian dollars and uh Dubai and you know, so but I don't think they're any happier. I don't think they're happier than I am. In fact, a lot of them envy me and say, you know, we miss South Africa, we've got Africa in our blood, we'd give anything to come back. But I mean, you they won't, you know, after all these years. Uh so I I changed my decision and I applied for dentistry. In those days, in 83 and 85, I mean in 78 and 79, it was extremely tough to get into VITS for dentistry. And we were told not to expect anything because they ex they accept one in 20 applications. So, and they only took 60 students and they got thousands of entries. In those days, thousands of people wanted to do dentistry. But it's funny, in the 70s it was white Jewish males. Okay. Today it's it's Muslim females that are doing dentistry. Oh yes. If you look at Witz Dental School today, it's mostly young ladies that are Muslim or Indian.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

We spoke about this before.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Yeah. But when in my day it was all Jewish male. So um the whole demographic. Did we spoke about this?

SPEAKER_03 19:58

No.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah. There's um uh one of our previous guests, he's um he was a doctor, but he does it's almost like um what do you call it? Public health. Yes, community health. Yeah, like community health. Yeah. And he was talking about the amount of graduates that come out, the percentage of them that actually drop out of the post-graduate.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Oh, post-graduate. Well, we were 60 when we joined, when we started, and we were only about 40 when we finished. So 20 dropped out or changed direction. Um And where were you? How did you get to Joburg, actually? Because you were in Bloomfantine. Well, Bloomfantine had no dental school. So my options and and Stellenbosch was out of the, it was an Afrikaans university and there was no dental school. So I had the choices between um Western Cape, Wits, and uh I don't even know if KwaZulu Natal did dentistry. A Pretoria did dentistry, but in Afrikaans. So, and all my mom's family were from Johannesburg, so she had all her family here. So it was a natural choice for me. So I applied to Witz and I got in at the very last minute. I wasn't pre-accepted like my esteemed colleagues. It wasn't an easy thing, but I got in. I arrived at Orientation Week. It was very daunting coming from a small little school. I was at Christian Brothers College, very small matrix class, small little place, coming to Witz, living on my own. My parents were fantastic, they were very progressive thinking. They uh rented a flat for me, they bought a car for me. I mean, they were just you know, incredible, incredible. Gave me all the support, and at school I did well. I mean, I matriculated with good marks, that's why I got into dentistry. And I got into dentistry and we did a chemistry test. And orientation week was February, and I think March was my first chemistry test, and I got 32%. You know what that does to when you think you're a big fish. Yeah, I come from uh CBC Bloomfantine, I was a head boy, I thought it was some big shot. I got 32%. I phoned my mother that night. There were no cell phones. I waited till I got home to my flat. I said, Mom, I'm giving up. There's no ways I'm going back. 32%, they can keep dentistry. The next morning I opened my eyes, I found my mother looking at me. She flew from Blumfantine to me and she said, Over my dead body, will you give up this degree? You will go back tomorrow, you will finish your degree, and you will become a successful dentist. I never questioned her, I never opened my mouth, I was terrified of her. And it proved right. I went back, I put my head to the groundstone, and I worked. I did one or two SUPs along the way, you know, supplementaries, but I finished my course in the full five and a half years. I had a great university life in terms of not enjoyment, but um I was successful. I was uh given the Siemens Award. They used to give awards to five top students, and I could choose any dental school in the world to go and study and do an elective. And I chose Harvard because of the reputation. It was an incredible experience. I spent a few months at Harvard. I did my American board exams, I passed that, and it was just such a thrill. In fact, one of my most prized possessions is a picture of me standing outside Harvard Dental School.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

That is amazing. Is that still around, at that? Yeah, Harvard, absolutely. No, I mean this exchange thing that I don't think they do it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

It's so sad. The whole dental fraternity is different. The campus, the ethos, the atmosphere. I mean, we were like a family. You know, it was at where it was in Bramfantine. I don't know if you know where where our university, where our dental school used to be. In Bramfanteen, there's a Catholic church there. It's totally different. You guys studied, well, you studied out the country, and you studied it was at Tux. Oh, you were at Tux, so it's different, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah, but I mean now what we know it now is that it's it's still at the med school.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

It's at the med school now. It wasn't there. We were separate. We went to Brahmfantine. Um, and we had a dental hospital. So we were like a big family, you know, everybody knew each other. Today I don't think they'd offer those awards. I don't know. We used to get uh medals at the end of the year and certificates, and they awarded us. Can you practice in America then with that? I used to be, I mean I could have, but I never did the conversion of the practical exam. I did all my American board exams in all the subjects and I passed all of them. And the the last final stage was actually going to be do a practical exam. But then the army called, I came back and I did the army and so you served in the army? Yes, two years I did uh military service. Did you have to fight and stuff? No, no, because where if you're a dentist, you become a lieutenant and uh you practice as a dentist. So no, I didn't do any compact.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Oh, so you practice.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Something interesting I found out recently. Even if you're a chef in the army, you get a title.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Like Lieutenant, yeah. You get either one pip or two pips, you become a lieutenant. And uh I mean we did basic training for the first six weeks.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Can you shoot uh can you fire?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

I can't do anything.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

No, but there was training, right? Yeah, there was training. Yeah, but then asked me to have a rifle or a firearm. Uh Jerry Seinfeld's father was uh was a dentist. No, no. He was um uh in in in the in the fiction uh uh series, he was uh um a chef in the army. Oh really? He got everyone sick. Uh sorry, that's his side note.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

No, the army was a a leveler. It wasn't a pleasant experience, but I mean it was where was that? Uh we first did it in Pochesterom. The first six weeks in Poch was where all the medics and dentists went.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

And we crooked the system. I mean, it was unbelievable. You know, we when we went for our medicals, you can't believe what we used to do. Put sugar in our urine before it got dipped. And you can't believe, and they took us for x-rays an hour. They were so idiotic, the the the the the the army. Why? What was it? Like a qualifying. Well, because they qualify you as K1G1, in other words, you're super fit. If you become a K1G1, that means you can serve, yeah. And if you become a K3G3, that means you're almost an invalid. If you're a K4, they send you home. And I was as fit and strong as I was, I made sure I became a K3G3. They called me a pen pusher. Yeah, yeah, Dari Kai. Hey, can't you? I uh they wouldn't even let me wear my water bottle at the back because it was too heavy for my back. Because when we went for X-rays, I mean, just to show you their level of stupidity, I uh I bent over like this. So they said to me, You've got kyphosis and scoliosis, the hearing test, they smacked an instrument and put it by my head, yeah. My whole head was vibrating. I never budged. Hey, do a fake on his sydney, heri kai. They they tell me, they said, Look, you you you you you're just one step away from being discharged from the army. So you cooked the system, you know? And then private practice after that, or what happens? Yeah, after army, I bought a practice in Bramley North, which is uh in Johannesburg, and I went straight into practice. I was so green, I was so naive. I mean, what I did got out those patients because I don't know what I did to them or put them through. But I couldn't have been too bad because still today people are finding me after all these years and said, Norman, we found you and you left the country and we've been so searching for you. So I'm very honored and humbled, you know. I mean, I I enjoy a wonderful relationship with my parents, uh with my patients. I've got this rapport, and I probably think that's one of my unique selling points is not my clinical competency. You know, a lot of people can become clinical competent, but I think it's the soft skills that are so important. The way you talk, the way you approach the people, your empathy, your understanding, um, being sensitive to the needs and feelings of people less privileged than yourself. I mean, I'm acutely aware of the privileged lifestyle I've had, of the education I've received, of the knowledge I've got, of the wisdom I was given. So I firmly believe in giving back. You must give back, you must be kind, you must be charitable. Um and we do a lot of charity in our practice. Yes, our average dental procedures are not cheap. We we give a good service and we charge a reasonable rate for it. But then to make up, we are extremely charitable. We do a lot of pro bono work.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

How do you maintain that sort of warmth and connection when you know dental patients are notorious for coming and sitting on the chair and saying, uh, I hate the dentist before they even greet you. All day we're hearing that.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Still. Till today. Till today. As kind and as nice as I am, Norman, we love you, but we hated the dentist. And we hate what you do and we hate it, and it's it's very demoralizing. It's you know, I've been I've been close to burnout a few times in my life where I've got to the point where I was depressed, I was anxious, I was stressed, I was emotionally drained, I was mentally strained, I was physically broken. I mean, it's a very hard profession physically on your body. You know, your neck, your back, your posture, your hips, your hands. It's extremely demanding, as you will find out as you go in your So how do you stay in that for 45 years? Well, it's tough. Well, so you what you journal and all that stuff? I journal, I travel, as you guys know. I travel a lot now. I mean, I couldn't earlier. Now that my kids are grown up and independent, my wife and I can travel all over the world, which I love. I'm not very materialistic. I don't have to buy watches and Lamborghinis and cars. Not that I can afford it, but I mean I wouldn't. I spend my money on travel.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

I'll just love it.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah, we I love your your travel stuff. Oh, do you? Yeah, it's uh I always try to find out where is he now? Oh, really? But anyway, just back to what you were saying. I mean, I have an unpopular opinion amongst my colleagues that, you know, anyone can do dentistry, but to be able to be a successful dentist is not just about those clinical skills. It's as you were saying, those soft skills. Definitely. That emotional caution is a term I used before. Do you think that that can be taught to someone? Or do you think that that has innately translation?

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Innately part of your temperament. But you can learn it, you can uh self-tune it. You can undergo uh development, business development, self-development, which I've done constantly. I still do, I still have a coach, a life coach, and I speak to her once a month. And uh is that? Can we know? She's in the UK, she's not here. She I've known her since I was in the UK. And um I think to be successful, to be truly successful, you need to affirm others. You need to make others feel good about themselves. You need to know that you're not self-made. Nobody is self-made that is successful. There's a team behind me, there's a team behind any successful man or woman. There's a partner where you choose a life, uh a good life partner. There are parents, there are siblings, there's a support system that holds you. It takes a village to bring up a child and it takes a community to make you successful. So I've never ever taken it for granted or taken it upon myself to think I've been a success on my own. Um, you're not self-made. It's it's it's a journey that involves your staff. And on that point, there's so many friends of mine or colleagues who don't respect their staff, who I I don't feel give their staff enough acknowledgement and respect. And I think that's unfortunate because your staff are your golden nugget, they are your welfare, they are your goodwill. Because patients speak to the staff and they can pick up the the atmosphere, the respect. The energy. The energy, the karma. So it's very important that you look after your staff and they will look after you. And they'll talk about, you know, it's very important that people talk well about you behind your back. That's your reputation. It's no good people praising you in front of you. It's what they say about you when you're not around. That's important. And again, my parents taught me to be to have an integrity. And what is integrity? Integrity is when your personal identity and your public persona are in sync. So you're not living a false lie, you're not living a facade. Exactly. You'd be in your authentic self, live your life. And I think a successful person lives life, accepts life as it is with all its challenges. You know, you need to be emotionally healthy to be successful. So, how do you become emotionally healthy? I think you need to tune into who you are, you know, be centered, be mindful. I think Buddhism is a wonderful religion because they teach you about being mindful, and I'm learning a lot about that. Uh, being in the now, um, enjoying the moment, enjoying the journey. And it's taken me a long time to get to this place of peace. Um, and I think I'm getting to the stage of my life where I've only got maybe five years left of dental practice, and I'm at in a in a good place in my life, you know, I'm at peace. Why is that from a health perspective? No, now I'm healthy and fit and strong, but I mean, how much how long am I gonna live? You know, I don't see myself living very old. I don't know. I thought I'll be lucky and grateful if God spares me until 80. My wife gets angry with me when I say that. She says I'm gonna live till 100. But I wouldn't like to. I wouldn't like to live, overstay my my welcome. You know, I don't want to be a burden on my children. I never want to be have the indignity of being, you know, bedridden or so it's a blessing if you can, you know, if you can die a peaceful death, it's it's a blessing. I pray for that and I hope it will be my future.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

My question was more about it seems like you've got a very finite um time that you've allocated to dentistry. Why is that whether that number comes from? You know, I'm tired, Jack. I'm tired. My hands are sore, my neck's sore. Uh it's exhausting. So do you think it is from a health perspective that us dentists have an expiry date?

SPEAKER_00 34:18

I think so. I mean, I've got mates who are in their 80s and they're still practicing. They're lucky that they're still very um, you know, that there's no shakes and tremors. But I'm not giving it a finite date. But I've said to myself at the back of my mind, I'll give it another five years. I'm hoping Chelsea will be my exit strategy, but at this stage she's telling me there ain't no chance of that. I think she's seen too much of the stress that I've you know gone under. So she's doesn't take over the practice. Yeah, I'd like her to.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

Do you work out? I mean, because you've got banging calves and and uh shirtless. I do. Okay, I do, but it's not easy at my exercise is important for for you guys.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Exercise is very important, but it's taken me years to become uh disdisciplined. As a youngster, I was a good swimmer.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

So in my youth, I swam for the Free State. Those the Orange Free State used to be a province that you've probably never heard of. Yeah, no, no. Oh, you have? Are you not that young? Yeah. So I was a competitive swimmer, but then starting dental school, I just let things slide, and in my adult life and emigrating, there was no ways I could do gym. So I put on a lot of weight, I became lazy, lethargic, and my health wasn't good. And then I took a firm step, I think in my late 40s. And and I just said, look, this is it. I've got to lose weight. Did something trigger that? Uh yes, I I needed a hip replacement. I was very young. I think I was 50, and they diagnosed stage four arthritis in my right hip. But he said to me, he said, look, if you can lose 20 to 30 kilos, it would make a huge benefit to your recovery. And I did that. I was very, very um strict with myself, with my wife's guidance, with medical help, of course. And I did lose 30 kilos. Wow. Well done. And I stuck to my eating regime. And I I still go to gym three times a week. I don't have a hectic workout, but I mean Are you a morning person or no morning person? I'm up at half past four, five. That's my favorite town. That's my town. Where the birds to see the sunrise, feel the fresh air, it's quiet. I go on walks when I'm uh when I'm not working. I love hiking. Uh that's become a new passion.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

That's where the calves come from.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Well, who knows? They say it's genetic, but I don't know. Norman calv years. I've just done the Camino. I don't know if you've heard of the Camino. Yeah, yeah, the trail in Spain. Yeah, it was incredible. I did a hundred and fifty kilometers hike. Over I took 12 days, but still it was hectic in the rain, in the mud, in the cold, and yeah, it was a challenge, you know. Um I've done some crazy things, but I mean I wish I was a morning person.

SPEAKER_03 36:53

So what crazy? I mean, when I think of you, I also think of um Miss South Africa Beauty South. Oh, yes. How does that how does that get into your life?

SPEAKER_00 37:02

A few years, a good 20 years ago, one of the ex-Miss South Africas was my patient. Uh, and she said to me, Dr. Norman, we're looking for a a sponsor for the Miss South Africa pageant, because you cannot be a beauty queen if you don't have good skin and you don't have a good smile. And we want to bring a reputable dentist on board who will offer the winner a winning smile, or maybe create a winning smile. And I accepted the challenge. It was on the cusp of social media taking place, and I thought, well, you know, there's it's a way of also uplifting my uh the my presence and awareness. I I I I took the challenge and it's just followed me through all these years. Uh, I've now I'm quite involved in a lot of pageantry. Miss Supranational, Miss Universe, Miss World, Miss South Africa, Mr. World, Mr. Gay World, Mr. the Miss Deaf World, Miss Wheelchair. What do you do there? Uh oh, I I look after their teeth, the winner's teeth, for a year. Okay. And in in in um repayment, they do PR for me. I mean, it's not major PR, but I mean it's doing me no harm. I enjoy having the interaction, but I've turned it around because I've used the platform, Beauty with a Purpose, which is the Miss World platform, and I've I've synced it with our community outreach program where we bring in orphans every year, and we let the beauty queens, the top 12 girls, meet these orphans and act as mothers and caregivers for the day and make them experience their first dental visit in a non-threatening environment. So I'm using the women, uh, exp uh exposing them to the these impoverished children. They're usually HIV orphans. We adopt a different home every year and we give them pro bono dental work, and that's so satisfying and so gratifying.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

That's actually the first time I came to know about your practice because uh I met Chelsea at, I think it was called a Brennermark Institute, yeah. Something like that. Yes. And it was through the pediatric, yeah, to the pediatric association. And then I wasn't allowed to practice it. That's it. I just came back to South Africa. Oh. And um I went to just help out and offer my services. And it was Youthti and myself. And she was doing the children. Yeah, Chelsea was there. I thought, wow, this is like so cool. A big practice like this is still, you know, reaching out to the community and and doing what they do.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

We do a lot of pro boner work, and that's why I've got no qualms in charging what we charge. Because I mean, you've got to look after yourself. You're running a b a business, you need to be profitable. I mean, we offer a great service, you know. We certainly don't over-service patients, we certainly don't rip patients off. We're very honest, very transparent. Where is your practice? Uh I'm in Parktown North. We've got the uh we bought a prostodontic practice. My brother Emil is a prostodontist, Chelsea and I. So we're all in a group practice in Parktown North.

SPEAKER_03 39:59

You mentioned social media. At that time, you were it was the cusp of social media. Yeah, yeah. I see you've embraced it. I mean, what do you what's your thoughts on social media? I mean, I I know a lot of dentists are part of us.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

It's yeah, and it's not gonna go away. Yeah. And I mean, it started with Facebook, it's now Instagram is just booming, now it's threads, then it's TikTok, YouTube. Are you in all of those things? I'm not. Yeah. I want to. But you know, I've often taken on a PR company to help me with my social media, and it's never been successful, really. Okay. Because what happens is they don't really know the nitty-gritty of dentistry. They're marketing people, they PR people, but dentists is a unique profession. You know, they can't do a before and after shot. So they're still asking me for content and asking me for the script and asking me for photos. I may as well do it myself. Yeah, exactly. And I and I and they want 10,000 rand a month. So you do your own social media.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

Yeah, I see. Yeah. I I charge my practice now. Well, that's clever. Yeah. That's the clear. I feel like I'm good at it. You can see he's gonna have to do it. You are good at it. Yeah. You've got the most magnificent setup, yeah. Yeah, but then also there were it was a few months ago I wanted to ask you about this. I never got the opportunity. Something bad happened with uh one of your accounts. It was hacked.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Oh, I lost all my followers. Yeah. That was somebody hacked my our Facebook page and our Instagram page. We had 10,000 followers or uh and we lost everything and we could not retrieve it. I don't know how it happened or what happened. I don't know if it was professional jealousy or if it was genuine. I mean, I can't see anyone wanting to hack a dental practice.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

You know, it wasn't like cybercrime or something. I mean, they got nothing out of it except destroying my social media presence. So we've started all over again, but I mean it has affected us. Yeah. Yeah, we lost everything.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Did you get any help from Instagram?

SPEAKER_00 41:47

I tried. I tried. I got nothing. Nothing. We couldn't retrieve a thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

All our posts, all our threads, all our videos, our reviews, it really was a setback. Yeah, that's one thing that scares me. You need to be very secure online. Make sure that you're incredibly, you know, your online presence is secure.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Aren't you worried about you know, when you put yourself out there, you open yourself up to criticisms and all sorts of things, right? Yeah. Doesn't it doesn't bother?

SPEAKER_00 42:13

It does bother me. It does. It scares me. And uh but what's your choice? Yeah. Not to be present online and then you just fall on the wayside because it's the only way of marketing yourself.

SPEAKER_03 42:23

So you think it's it's that important now? You can't just be you can't just be a dentist and practicing.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

You can, that's your choice. But I mean, I've been brought into this with all these high flying campaigns that I've been associated with, and it's part of who I am, you know, it's part of what I of what people expect me to do. I mean, I I don't want to come across as arrogant, and I hope I don't come across as arrogant or not to me, big-headed, or because that's the last thing I want to do. I'm I'm acutely aware of it.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

But isn't that the problem, right? I I I feel no matter what you you put out there, there'll always be a critic. Even if you put out the most perfect thing. Always. There'll be somebody to criticize and somebody to find fault with it. Yeah. Um I remember Mark Wertheimer joked with us when I posted a photo of you and me, and he said you didn't do the I didn't do the Dr. Norman the big bars. Is that a is that a natural pose? Yes. And I'm I'm just used to it. You've got fantastic bars. Yeah, yak works out a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Yeah. It's just, you know what, what do you do with your hands? Yeah. I don't like different like that, like for Prince Charles or hands behind the back. You know, I just it just comes naturally.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

Yeah, it's a unique way of folding your arms compared to uh Yak, we'll talk about it off screen. I mean, for the people that are listening, they're going to be wondering what's going on. Just Google it. No, if you look at my pictures, I'm always like this.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

In fact, you know what happened recently? I lost my Apple Watch. So I contacted my insurers and I said, Listen, I've lost my Apple Watch. I need to get insurance. They says, Well, you've got to prove ownership. I said it's 10 years old. I don't have them. Okay. So they said, okay, well, just send us a pic with your watch. You won't believe I could not find a picture with my watch because in every bloody picture my hands were like and I thought this is karma. Yeah. I couldn't find a picture.

SPEAKER_04 44:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Yeah, it's a very unique uh so anyway. Eventually I found a picture uh with my watch on and I sent it to them and I've just claimed my new claim. Yeah. So that serves me right for always standing like that. But you know, sometimes it identifies you as what you are. It becomes your personal logo. Yeah. People laugh at me and mock me, but I mean it's part of the brand. I I don't Yeah, part of the brand.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

I don't think they're mocking. It's just like so you've been in the game 45 years and you mentioned something about professional jealousy. How is it like competition-wise? I mean, do are dentists competitive?

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Very, very competitive. Yeah, openly or not openly.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

It's very undercover, but it's there. I think it's becoming more open. In fact, let's talk about uh your most recent post, right? You you and I met at an event on when was it Wednesday? Yeah, at the launches. So there were a very select group of people that were invited. In fact, we were invited as influencers. Yeah. I didn't know that. My influencer, my invite said influencer. Yes. And I didn't think anything of it. I'm very oblivious to this sort of stuff. You picked it up and you did mention in your post you are privileged to be with twelve. There were only twelve of us invited. Yeah. And there was someone else that saw that and actually asked me. They're like, How come you guys were invited? Read? A dentist. Yeah. Why was I not invited? And this I thought it was a joke. Like, I mean, we don't choose who gets to go to these things. But I think this person actually was offended that they were not invited. But that speaks to the point of professional agility. It's not like what we even do within our practice. It's how we associate ourselves in our social environment.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Yeah. But you know, it's the way what how you treat the people. I mean, I have a lot of colleagues who give no time to reps that walk into their practice. They don't show respect. They don't give them the time of day, and then they expect to be invited to launches of products. Or it it it it goes both ways. I had never done that. I treat all the reps with respect. I give them undivided attention. Even if it's five minutes, I'll greet them, I'll sit with them. Just they are doing their job. So give them a difficult job, a difficult job. So give them the courtesy of speaking to them, meeting them, greeting them. That's all. You know, they don't want blood from you. And I think over the years, that's how I've developed a fantastic relationship with most companies: Colgate, Siemens, Orl B, CuraProx. They never say no to me if I ask them for anything. And I often have campaigns where I need, you know, to give out samples, brushes, toothpaste. And I honestly, the reps are fantastic. The dental companies always come to my company.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah, I've I always had a soft spot for dental companies because um uh I even at other practices that I used to work at, there was never time for them. Look, uh, you can also understand that the the practitioners are busy at some point. We're busy and they do they do intrude because they never make a point.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Yeah, they usually just arrive.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Yeah, but I think it's if they do it by geographical.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Yeah, they just arrive. And often bearing scones and chocolates and sweets and flour. So you do feel a bit awkward. But I mean, whenever possible, I stop what I'm doing just to at least greet them and then send my nurse to talk to them because they're talking to us about new products. I mean, we should we owe it to ourselves to be on top of our game. Yeah. Know about the latest products, techniques, you know, materials.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Exactly. So I wanted to just chat about your brother, Emil. He's a prostodontist, right? Yeah. So how is he older than you? Younger than you? No, he's five years younger. Five years younger. Yeah. So he got into dentistry just as you were finishing.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Yeah. That's right. I was in fifth year when he started. And I like to think I was influential in him becoming a dentist. But I mean, he is, in my opinion, the best in this in the country in terms of prostodontics. He's really got a fantastic name, a fantastic reputation. I'm very proud to be associated with him. I've learned a lot from him. Chelsea's learned a lot from him. And um, I'm honored to call him my brother. I mean, he served as president of the Prosta Society. Uh, he's always called upon to be an expert witness if there's an issue in the profession. So, you know, I regard him as highly successful, and even though he's five years younger, I look up to him, I admire him.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

And you you didn't have any intent or you never wanted to specialise in any anything at the beginning?

SPEAKER_00 48:38

You know, driving, yeah. I was thinking about my career and I thought, what am I going to say? And I remember now, I don't know if you remember Prof. John Lemmer. None of you were at Witz, so you wouldn't know him. He was a stalwart in our profession. He was the head of Perio at Witz, and any Vitz guys who are listening to this will acknowledge what I say. He was the go-to guy for anything. He was our hero. And he was head of perio. And when I graduated, I remember him calling me in and saying, I want you to do perio in oral medicine. I'll never forget that moment because it was such an honor for him to ask me to apply. But in that moment, all I wanted to do was see the back of those revolving doors that we walked out of dental school. It was the last place I ever wanted to even enter. So I ran, I ducked, and I never went back to dental school for years afterwards. Really, I I left traumatized because of what they did to us. I mean, I don't know if you used to do orals before your as a final exam. It it was nerve-wracking. We were finished, you know, to sit and wait for that oral exam.

SPEAKER_03 49:45

I can totally relate to what you're saying. Um, traumatized is the right thing. Traumatized, genuinely traumatized. I had to go back to campus a couple of years after I qualified because YFTI was still studying there, and I used to get like the chills.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Exactly. Mark your heart palpated. I mean, they put the fear of guarding you. They thought, or I was told that they did that especially to teach the students how to cope under stress and pressure. But I'm not so sure if it was a good teaching method because it just it left a bad taste in our mouths. None of us look back on our years and think, wow, what a fantastic time we had at varsity, you know? Yeah. You know, Yak was the only guy in his class. With the old woman.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

The only person, sorry, in his class.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Uh the only human being. The only human being. Why? Well, the the lecturer was human as well.

SPEAKER_04 50:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

But uh, only person. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

So you had individual tuition.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Yeah, I when I got to Mauritius, I failed engineering and then I got exiled to this island and I got to Mauritius. I started um dentistry there, and then I failed. But then that year was the last intake that they had. So everyone moved on, but I was the last person. Is that so? Yeah. So I mean, people thought that they were either going to just pass me or close the university down. But I think there was um political interference, and um I was kept on. So my my courses subsequent to the first year, all one-on-one. Really? This was a yes. Did you do a podcast with him?

SPEAKER_03 51:12

No, we have done. Yeah, I have you. He was the first episode. Uh uh, you know, Yak wasn't a co-host until uh he he he gave me like a trial run of a few episodes just to see if I faffed around. And then he realized, okay, he can join me. So he was the first guest that uh at a vet, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Took the plunge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:28

Fantastic. But I I think he might be probably one of the only few people in the world that had had one-on-one dental school for second year. So you mean they've closed the dental school?

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Yeah. Well, since then, yeah, but I was the last uh graduate and then the dental school closed. But I I mean to your point that you know that that teaching style. I think it probably worked for some other people. Really? It worked for me. It had to. Why with that tough when you was where you're I mean, one-on-one. It's like this was our lecture. Horrendous. And it you can't look anywhere, you don't have a phone, you can't crib. Oh, nothing. So, and but I needed it because I was I was naughty.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

I mean I was very You're still naughty. I can see it. You can see in his eyes and his and his hair. My hair, yeah. Yeah, this is a naughty boy.

SPEAKER_03 52:11

Yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

Yeah. Yeah. So? No, I mean, what do you think is next for me? Yeah. Traveling. I try I'm leaving next Thursday to Australia. I've just come back from Lebanon and Cairo. And my wife and I travel. We love traveling, we go to beautiful places, we stay in top places, we're spending our money on that. We've mentioned your wife a few times. I mean, is she in healthcare or not really? No, my wife's actually becoming a very well-known South African artist.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

She's trained as a beauty therapist. She practiced for the first few years as a beauty therapist, but she was always artistic, always creative. Her home's beautiful, she dresses beautifully, she takes inspiration in fashion and food. She's a wonderful hostess, and in my opinion, she's a beautiful woman. But when COVID hit, we were so bored we had nothing to do. And she started painting again. She just started, and we couldn't get any canvases, all the shops were closed. And so what she hit on is starting to paint pop art on newspaper cuttings. And you cannot believe how it's taken off. People are buying her art daily. She's now supplying, she's got a gallery in Vancouver in Montreal, two in Cape Town, two in Johannesburg, and her works are hanging all over the world, in boardrooms, in homes, across the world.

SPEAKER_03 53:31

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Um, she is an amazing, yeah. And and for anyone listening, I'd love them to follow my wife. She's on Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

I I follow her because. Oh, you do? Tell us the first time you post it.

SPEAKER_00 53:40

On Insta, it's Art by Alida Kai. Art A-R-T by Alida, A-L-I-D-A-KI. And she just puts out the most beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 53:50

How did you guys meet? Because usually, you know, people meet in dental school and all these things.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

No, no, we met at her grand's home. It was quite funny. Uh the Lebanese people uh like the Jewish people, they like to matchmake and integrate. And I was invited to the grand's home for a party.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

It sounds very Indian, also. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

Yeah, we're very we are so similar. Is she Lebanese? Yes. Yes, no, she's Lebanese, 100% Lebanese. And I met her. What is it there? What is Lebanese, what do you mean? Yeah, we're all Lebanese. You said she doesn't look Lebanese. She doesn't look Lebanese. She's blonde, blue eyes, green eyes. Uh, in fact, when we were in Lebanon, they all tell me, Oh, we see you married a Dutch person. The one guy says, You married the Dutch woman? I said, No, she's not Dutch. Is she Jewish? I said, No, she's not Jewish. I said, She's more Lebanese than me. But uh, yeah, that's how we met, you know, and we became friends for four years. We would just remain friends. I was very slow.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

There was no nothing going on. And then eventually, when I went into the army, um, I just realized I I'd fallen in love with her and we started corresponding. In those days, we had to write letters. That's how old I am. And get letters delivered, hand delivered, and yeah, and it took off from there.

SPEAKER_03 54:59

Yuck and I used to write letters to each other.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

To each other? You you you're cousins. You're cousins, aren't you? Yeah, but we had it, we had self, we had a cell phone. Well, our dad's had a cell phone. We thought it was fun to write letters.

SPEAKER_03 55:10

Yak lived in Maritz, he's a Maritzburg boy. Is that where you're from? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

It's from a sleepy hollow called Maritzburg. I believe all the Maritzburg people are moving to the Midlands. Is there truth in that? Yeah, I'm actually from well, Maritzburg is in the Midlands. Oh, is it in the Midlands? Oh, that's my geography is not great, but I've just been told even the dentists want to get out of Maritzburg.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

And so yeah, well traveling now. But you've traveled all over the world. I mean, this is the city.

SPEAKER_00 55:37

I've been to all over the world. I haven't been to Portugal. I mean, yeah, a lot of places I haven't been to. Australia's my first time I'm visiting there. Um what's the best country that you've been to? What's your favorite? Can you say it? London's my favorite city on this planet. Yeah. Absolutely. People think I'm crazy, but I it's probably it's an affinity because it's home for from home. But I just love the way it works. I love the way the British people are so civilized and organized and stand in queues and wait their turn. You haven't been to Japan, have you? I haven't. And that's what people tell me. It's a life-changing experience. Have you?

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Yeah, look, I have. But everything you sang, it's like gone steroids.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Yeah, I believe. That is definitely on my bucket list at Japan. My wife and I want to do that in uh in the cherry blossom season, but it's an expensive exercise. So we want to do that. Next year we booked to do a Danube cruise down the Danube, see Vienna, Austria, Budapest, Prague. I mean, the world's a beautiful place. You know, if you can afford it and you've got the ability and the opportunity, why not take it? How do I know I'm going to be healthy in five years' time or fit or strong or even here? So I've told my kids, I said, look, we're living your inheritance out. We're going to be spending the money. What are they saying? No, dude, stay home. Don't travel. Did you did you never encourage them to emigrate also? I did. That's why my son's gone. I did very much so. Why just to broaden the mind or broaden their mind? Because today things aren't unduly terrible in South Africa. I mean, it's good. Life's good. Life's good. We have our challenges, but we still live a damn good life.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

A very privileged life. And don't you think there's a for me personally, I mean, we we're very pro-South African, both. Yeah, so am I. But also at the same time, you still live in this constant, like, you know, fear that maybe we're wrong. Maybe this stuff is going bad. Yeah, you're very naive, yeah. Yeah. But I feel like there's like this purge happening at the moment where everything that has been causing the distress is like coming to light. Yeah. And it's giving me optimism that, you know, if we hold, you know, the people that run us accountable, that there can be a change that's that can be affected.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

Look, there's a lot of corruption here. But then isn't there corruption everywhere? England, America. There's corruption everywhere. So I mean, we're safe. And there's so much hatred in this world, there's so much anti-Semitism going on in this world. It's so sad what's happening in Israel, what's happening in Ukraine, what's happening in Yemen, wherever you go, you know. So I think we're actually quite safe and happy and lucky to be in South Africa. I really do.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Yeah. Also far from natural disasters.

SPEAKER_00 58:13

Absolutely, natural weather disasters.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Look what's happening in the Philippines and the barley as well. Barley. You know? Before we go too far down the Danube, I wanted to just touch on um dentistry. Like, where do you think dentistry is heading? I mean, you are at the you know, the end stages, you want to retire soon.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

Well, I tell you, AR is going to revolutionize what's going on in the world. I mean, it's one of the few professions that cannot be AR generated or directed. But certainly I've had companies approaching me, they're wanting to change my practice management, my um account system, everything have it AR um driven. So that is definitely, we're on the cusp of the AR revolution, like the industrial revolution. So I think that's where it's heading. I mean, I qualified in 84, just to think. I never knew what an implant was. We never knew what HIV was. We we never practiced with gloves. That is how archai we were. Think of it. I mean, the practice of dentistry when I qualified is so poles apart from the practice of dentistry now, it's mind-boggling. So if I didn't stay on trend and go to continuing education courses and better myself, where would I have been? You guys used to put your fingers in patients. Sure. For extractions, for surgicals, hands in. I I can't remember. I'm sure we had masks. I can't remember, but we definitely never had gloves.

SPEAKER_03 59:47

And you were okay with that? Like it wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

We weren't okay, but it was just accepted. What must we do? I didn't think or I didn't feel squeamish, but that is the genuine truth. I remember one lecture being told. Was it better? No, never. I can't even think of doing something now. No, patient will be like this, but salty, what did you have? If you just had curry for lunch and you got stuck in. No, it was different. So, you know, then in the at in 1989, 1990, teeth whitening became a revolution and it totally transformed this dentistry. I was one of the pioneers of teeth whitening in South Africa. Again, I I was taught that in England and I brought it to South Africa. I didn't bring it, but I mean I was one of the very few practices that started it. It changed the face of dentistry. I mean, today teeth whitening is one of the single most sought-after dental procedures that people want.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

And you guys do zoom teeth whitening, I might go.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

We do many systems. Yeah, we've got the zoom light, we've got opalescence, we've got polar white, we've got a lot of different teeth whitening. Then in the 2000s, Botox and fillers became the thing. Another boost to the industry. And today we're doing a lot of that. Now the well, of course, implants changed the face of dentistry forever. I mean, that's been the most fantastic part of dentistry. But as you say, the future, I don't know, they're working on stem cells or regenerating teeth, the actual tooth material. I don't know where it's going. I mean, we've been down the road of the wand, which is I don't know if you've heard of the wand, giving local anesthetic. Yeah, I've tried that. And you know, I've tried all the gimmicks, but sometimes you just go back to the old familiar.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:29

You know, your story is amazing. You you went from treating patients with no gloves on to COVID. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: To whitening to COVID to implants, everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Aligners now, clear lines. That's the thing I needed to mean. That's really changing the face of dentistry. Unfortunately, uh the orthodontists aren't too happy about it, and I don't blame them. It's their bread and butter, and there's no ways any of us can even think that we can compete with an orthodontist. So I'm acutely aware, and I still refer a lot of advanced cases to my orthodontic mates and colleagues, and I've got all the time and respect in them. But it is something different to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

It is a practice builder, it is a money spinner if it's done correctly, diagnosed, properly, managed, and orchestrated and supervised. And I do a lot of it. Again, I think I was one of the forefront when Elton approached me many, many years ago. I think it must be five, six years ago. So I'm loving it. I'm enjoying it. I'm getting good results. So, yes, that is definitely something. If clear liners are definitely yet to stay. Uh, even the orthodontists are doing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:35

And then no, I speak to orthodontists quite a lot. I mean, my wife's one, right? And I say to your wife's an author. I say newly qualified. She started with this. And she loves it when I mention her on the podcast. So shout out to you if he loves you when you're. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

Uh, but she's a very lucky girl to have you. Of course. She's a lucky woman. Yeah, tell her mom that.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:52

Tell her mom that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

And he's a patient. Uh is he the patient? Yeah. Are you having a line there?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:56

Free and bridge line, yeah. Uh, have you got any now? Yeah. Yeah. I've been wearing it. You're focused on either liners. Look at this. 16 um trays or whatever you call it. Yeah. Smile for the camera. Look at that. You can't even see it. No, but I need to go for whitening, so I'll speak to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

Well, I hope you're gonna come to card dental.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:10

Yeah, I'll I'll do a but in the beginning when he started the podcast that affected uh his speech. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

Yeah, but isn't it a fantastic thing? Yeah, I think it's magical.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

No, I'm on the last, I'm on tray 16 of 16, or whatever you call it. And then you're gonna stay with your retention. Well, then my orthodontist, with my wife, tells me that they might need to do some refinement and things like that. But uh yeah, it's been uh it's been an interesting journey. It's also led me to a thing called OMAD. Ever heard of that? Uh-uh. One meal a day, OMAD.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:36

Oh yeah, that's a great diet.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:37

Yeah, I've lost kgs. Really? Yeah, I'm I'm disappearing uh because of that. Um but anyway, it's not about me, it's about you now. No, let's go back to you. No, well, I do an active aligners daily. Okay. We do a lot of it. I mean, it sounds like you're telling me all these stories, it sounds like fun. So I'm wondering why would you want to stop this in five years' time?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:54

Because you're a pioneer. If I had to think about the word to describe you, you're like a pioneering dentist. From no gloves to actually using aligners, how far you come?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

Yeah, I've come a long way.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

It's taken a lot. It's taken a lot. You need to have the right mindset and you need to want to improve yourself, and you need to be hungry and thirsty, you know? And at the same time, you need to be ethical. So I've attended a lot of courses where they say dentistry is a is a selling profession. You have to sell your work. But then I've also read books where they talk about ethical selling, and it has to be ethical. And being a Christian, I believe I keep God central into my life. I keep God central in all my decisions, and I go to bed and I put my head on the cushion and I know that what I've done has served my patience. Yes, we've made mistakes. Yes, I've done wrong things, of course. But I mean, in the I'm talking to the great DPL guy here. In my 45 years, in my 45 years, I've probably had to contact DPL three or four times in 45 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

It's a good track record, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:59

I mean, I think, you know, I can I'm proud of myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

That's not easy staying on the straight and arrow. Yeah. You know, if you're a dishonest guy, dentistry is the profession for you. You can hide anything and everything. You can talk, you can tell the patient anything. They they're gonna believe you because they trust you. But are you gonna live with yourself? It's not worth it. Yeah. Not worth having. That's why there's so much depression amongst us. There's so much, God forbid, suicide. I mean, a lot of dentists choose to take their life, become drug dependent, alcohol abuse, divorce rate, heart attack rate. I just did a Facebook post talking about it's very sad. Did you encourage Chelsea to become a dentist? How did that happen? I didn't, you know. But she was so Or did you discourage her? I didn't discourage her, but I didn't overly encourage her. I was just quietly happy and chuffed that she chose it. My wife actively encouraged her, okay, much to her credit. My brother encouraged her, but I was on the line because I knew what a life I was having. It was hard. Yeah, it was really tough. She's happy as a dentist, but I can't say it's her dream career. You know, she's not f flying high.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:10

Well, we'll have to get her on and ask her herself, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

Yeah, ask her. She's a very competent clinician. I'm very proud of her, and she's got a good name, and she's developing her own clientele, especially amongst the children. Kids love her.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

No, but that's the that's the point. Uh the point I was getting at is, you know, you said it's not you don't think it's her dream career, right? I always wonder who What is? No, who who has dentistry as their dream career?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:32

I don't know. You know, I don't think anybody. Yeah. But I mean, you've just interviewed a pr an esteemed um CA.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:41

Would you say that's his dream career?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:43

Yeah, it's it's just fascinating. Uh Prof. Yeah. I mean, would you do you think he's No Prof knew he didn't he wanted to become a CIA. C A, yeah. Dentistry specifically, because of all the stuff you just mentioned, the high suicide depression, anxiety, stress, patients coming and telling you they hate you. Yeah, absolutely. So if somebody comes to you now and says, uh, Dr. Kai, I've seen your interview, I'm inspired by you, uh I want to be a dentist, what would you say today?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:09

If it's a male, I would say go for it. Okay. You know, it's still it's still a good profession. You'll you'll earn well. And if it's a young girl, I'd say if you don't want to be a full-time dentist, it's still good for you because you can manage to be a homemaker, mother, and practice dentistry half day. But I wouldn't, if there was a if there was even a hope or a glint of them doing something else, I would say probably follow something else because it's really a tough profession. It's taken its toll on me. It really, really has. I've had a hip replacement, I've had joint replacements in my wrists. Yeah, uh, I need hearing aids, uh, my vision's affected. I mean, I'm sorry I have to.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:53

No, no, I appreciate this because people see people see you and think, wow, glitzy, glamorous travels the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:00

That's the danger of of of social media. You you you you come across as living a false, a falsely happy, exuberant, pr profitable life. But you are living that, right? I'm living a wonderful life. And I'm I'm very grateful to God for it. But I'm always a bit worried. Am I coming across as portraying a false life?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

Which is not false. I mean that is how I'm living. I get you. But I'm very grateful. But people don't realize it it comes with all this baggage. It comes with so much, there's a lot of negativity to a dentistry. It's taken its toll on me mentally, physically. I've been depressed, I've been stressed, I've been at burnout, I've gone to uh fat farms, I've gone to health spas, I've I've had to seek psychotherapists. I've done a lot. Business development, business coaching, lifestyle coaching, dietitians, nutritionists, I have done a lot. But I'm happy and I'm here and I'm still carrying on.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:56

I mean, and thank you for being so open and candid with us. Yeah, of course. You want to talk about or mention? No, I'm very proud of you guys. Why?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:03

You're young, yeah, you're on trend. Come on, stroke our egos more. Absolutely. You've got great names. He's got a fantastic reputation. Good looking, handsome? Very handsome, very good looking. Both of you. You've got the world at your feet. There's some lucky woman waiting for him, and you've got the, I'm sure, wonderful person.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:21

Yo, you were asking me because I was giving you the tour of his practice, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:23

And you said I said, I said, but he is he married because this is a very there's a feminine touch here.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:28

You know, that's it. That's when I first got the Indian in you. Because like you're trying to, are you already trying to hook him up with someone? Of course. That's how my head's spinning.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:35

He must have but I'm sure there's a a line around the block for doctor comments.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:40

Nah, but um no, I just wanted to say, like you, you, like you're proud of us. We we what are we trying to do? We're trying to revolutionize the way people see well, what I'm trying to do is revolutionize the way people see dentists. Absolutely. Especially the youngsters. Yeah, healthcare, not just dentists. We have a lot of like varied guests. But that being said, like I'm also like proud of you because you kept the profession going like in its darkest times through COVID. Oh, it was 10 years. And it's it's I mean, as I said before, like your practice is synonymous with like quality and authenticity. It's you as a person. Thank you. So really appreciate it. Yeah, and I just want to say thank you for coming on our show. And um, I I really don't think you've got five years left. I think there are things in dentistry that you like. I do. And I think you'll probably hand over the reins to someone, but you'll take on those things part-time and um probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:34

I hope you're right. Yeah, stay on. Just carry on.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

Thanks, guys. It's been a pleasure talking to you. I've enjoyed it, I've loved it, and it's nice to talk about your life's experience. Nobody nobody's really interested. You, the first people that have asked me about my life. So thank you. It's been a great privilege, and I look forward to seeing the podcast. Yeah. Thanks. Cheers, guys. Bye. Oh, you guys are tough.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:57

That was good.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

Was it?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:58

Yeah.