SPEAKER_01 0:00

Dr. Larumo Motlar. Welcome. What's the what's your favorite thing about being a surgeon, Doc?

unknown 0:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

We're diving right in.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Yeah, no, I like it. No, thanks very much, Yash for invitation to come, yeah. So it's uh it's it's really an honor for me to partake in your podcast uh so I really appreciate that the opportunity that you have given me. So surgery, yeah, is yeah, i it is is a very tough one. But surgery is a very interesting field of medicine in the sense that it deals mainly with uh uh we are treating diseases uh from the body tissue and as well as removing uh I know the the dentists they always like saying no surgeons they just when they look at the patient, they are looking at which organs to take. And uh but those are the th the the organs that are giving problems to the patient. So it is an art. Uh it's an art that takes quite uh a very long and difficult path to of training to master that art. And it's very interesting. And once you once you are there and you're able to offer that healing hand to the patient, that's what you'll appreciate the beauty of surgery.

unknown 1:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

So healing, healing people. Yeah. Exactly, yeah. You mentioned dentists because you know both of us are well, one's an ex-dentist, he's uh currently practicing. Is that why you mentioned dentists or is it coincidence? No, no, no. I didn't.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

I had one incident where I had uh I attend I went to a dentist and he he told me, Oh no, you surgeons, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

As a patient, you went as a patient.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

As a patient, yeah. So I said, ah, you know, surgeons, you're always looking for organs. What to invest in a patient when we see a patient and then yeah, it was uh it was very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

But that's the nature of surgery, am I right? I mean, the reason why patients get referred to is something needs to be removed or augmented in order for healing to happen. It's not like you're gonna prescribe Pernard and be like, go go home to your organ, your infections are gonna clear. Or well, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Exactly, yeah. No, exactly. I mean it it it it that that that's the case. So mostly some of the uh usually cure some of the diseases by removing certain sometimes removing certain organs. Not necessarily removing some of them, we even have to fix them. Um especially with trauma. So some of the organs which are injured, you have to go and repair them and uh and make sure that uh they function. So these are very important organs that we usually uh uh get involved in in repairing and operating. So that's why they say a surgeon's uh uh home is usually the theater. So you spend most of our time in theater and uh partaking surgical operations.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Now most of your patients when you when you're treating them, they're they're asleep, right? So they don't talk back or it's not like the dentist where our patients are mostly awake.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah, no, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Of course. Do you do any procedures where the patient is conscious?

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah, there I mean you sedate some patients.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah, there are those ones that are you the surgeon? I'm asking the surgeon, please. Kinda, kind of. Yeah. No, he has an inside your nose, is it? Yeah. Well, the uh ideally we shouldn't, but uh sometimes because uh anesthesia has its own risk. So sometimes you don't necessarily want to put patients under anesthesia unnecessarily so. So where you can do a procedure, a quick procedure, small ones without giving too much anesthesia is much better because we're trying to avoid complications of anesthesia. But uh big procedures where you of course the patient mustn't be in pain, of course the patient must sleep so that um the procedures can be done without any interference.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Okay, doc. So take us all the way back. Where are you from? Where'd you grow up? What was it like? How does somebody end up being a surgeon from where you come from? Take us all the way back.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah, but so I was born in in a rural uh village in uh in Limpopo. It's called Mamone Village. So it's situated in the Skukune district. Uh so that's where I was born and bred. I grew up there as a young boy. I mean, grow in the village, uh you know, you grow and with all other children. So you got raised by the village. So we uh parents, what did they do? Well uh I had uh my my father and my father was working in initially he was working in Pretoria, then he moved to Johannesburg. Uh I my mother was not working. She unfortunately I lost my mother at a very tender age of seven years old. So and uh it's me and two of my younger sisters. So they were following each other. The other one was three years, and the other one I think was three months when my mother passed on. But uh fortunately, in uh uh we we in our village we live in a communal way of living. So my aunt took over to raise us as and my grandmother as well. So we grew up very nicely. My father uh was he moved to from Pretoria, then he came to Johannesburg. He was uh started operating the Mexi Texas in Santin. And well, he he he he did his best to raise us. I mean, as as young as we were. Was he a driver or did he? He was a driver, so he had to he was only one of the taxis, then he bought another one and got someone to drive. So it was at that time the business was still fairly new and it was making quite uh uh a lot. I mean not much, but uh we could be able to afford um uh us to to feed us and to to give us all the necessary care that we need. So yeah, we I grew up there until I started uh my primary school in a small village. Um they called Sukwati Primary School. And I did my that one was up A, B. Then you go to Standard One. I think the the the arrangements now have changed.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

But uh safe to say that I I I I did my I started my primary school until uh when I went to grade I think Standard 4. Uh grade six. Grade six. Yeah then my father took me uh to come to Sowetu. So because he was staying in Sowetu, so I had to move from there to go and attend school there. So I I went, I did my grade uh seven there, then I went to high school.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

So hold on, wait, from Limpopo to Jobet. Is it not a big adjustment or change?

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Very big, very big adjustment. Yeah. But I think uh the condition at that time uh warranted him to do that because he was just looking at the quality of education you receive that side and compared to this side. I'm not saying that they've got best school, but uh uh sometimes it's very difficult, especially when he's far away from the children, is not able to monitor what is happening. He he to be very honest, he was one man was passionate about education of his children and he wanted the best for us. Um me and my sisters, my little sisters. So uh initially my sister went first, so I had to follow her. And uh my little the little one was still small, so it was still there with a grandma. So we yeah, so then I'm I came from uh the deep rural area, then went to Sowetu. And that time it was uh yeah, so we stayed in Deep Two, zone four. So he was renting a a room and in in the house there, so so I went to school in the local uh primary school in in Deep Tough, where I completed my primary school, then I eventually went to high school. Now for high school then I had to move to Johannesburg CBD. So he found uh uh a private school there that uh I attended. I remember the first was Phoenix, yeah. Phoenix College, which is based in Bramphon, there is every time I pass there, I still see that school is still there. So yeah, I started in uh in Phoenix. I did my grade uh eight, nine, then I moved from Phoenix, then I went to just across the street, Vector College, which is at Elof Street next to Park Station. That's where I did my grade 10 up to grade 12.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Can I just ask before you continue, what uh what time what sort of time time are we talking about? Uh what year was this?

SPEAKER_00 10:02

How long ago? That was long ago. When I came to Joe Hannesbeck, I think it was in I can't recall. In the 90s, I'm assuming. Yeah, in the nineties, I think 98, 99, somewhere there. So yeah, it's 90. But I I did my I matriculated in 2004.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

So that's the one that I can accurately record. So if you have to calculate moving backwards, then you will have an idea of uh what time was that. So now something very interesting happened because we see when I was in in uh in in Matrik, in Berta, there was uh a teacher, he was a deputy principal, his name was Mr. Ndrovu. He came to me and said, Look, man, because at that time it was mathematics was challenging. So, but uh for some reason I had a way of maneuvering and getting to do quite very well in mathematics and and as well as physical science. Then he said to me, So look man, why I can see you are very good in in this uh science stream. Why why do why do you not cons why I cannot consider doing medicine? It's like, okay, medicine? Well at that time, well, I wanted to do chemical engineering. See, wanted to get to chemical engineering. Why was that?

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Did you have any exposure to it?

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Not not really an exposure, but I just said felt very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Found it to be very interesting to be chemical and doing of all the engineering that there is, chemicals are probably not the favored one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

He's biased because he studied mechanical engineering.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Oh, okay. But but there is a there is like a uh preconception, even from within the engineers, that the chemical engineers are our our cousins are chemical engineers. They're not gonna like the statement. It's the orthopedics of surgery.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Oh. Then I understand. But anyway, I think every field, the the people who are in that field, they'll always feel that uh their is very important, you see. But yeah, so I was like, okay, medicine is not too bad, but I wasn't really interested much interested. Now, until what happened is that one of our teachers, uh, her name is uh Miss Gloria Moudise. She she left to go to Medusa to do uh it was then Medusa that time, in 2013. Uh I mean in 2003 to go and study medicine. She was an old teacher, she did teach, she left. Then she went there and uh when she she would usually come back and to give us some part-time teaching and she was teaching us mathematics. And she said to me, Ah no, it's nice there. Medicine is good, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Hold on, hold on. So she's a teacher, she went and did medicine and came back to teach you guys. No, no, no, she used to come part-time.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

That's after yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

So after she was qualified as a qualified.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

No, no, no. She was just started. Oh. So usually what happens is that when you start first year, they credit you some of the courses. You don't have to you don't really have much of work to uh to to uh to do. I get you. So she had a lot of time to come back and well that's nice of her to come back and inspire others, maybe. Yeah. She she came and inspired and then uh Gloria, what? What's his son? Modise. Yeah, so she she inspired me, then I was like, okay, no, with those marks that I had uh for my final grade 11, so I should be able to make it uh without any problems into the selection for medicine at uh at at Medusa. Initially I applied at Vets. Then but you see, for some reason I was like tired of Johannesburg. Man, it was just too too busy for me. I needed a new environment, you know. What did your dad want to do? My dad, well, my dad he wasn't really too much strict. He just said, look, if that's what you you like and you think you can do it, yeah, just go for it. Okay. Because Mr. Ndlofi even spoke to my father before he before he spoke to me, he said, Look, this child, I mean, uh, we'll have to put a nice close eye on him. Let's see uh how he progressed. And uh he was very impressed. I mean, I must say. Then for some reason, okay, then I because she uh Gloria Mujisa, she was, I mean, she will come and inspire me, and she's like, I I'll have to follow wherever you went to. Then there I put an application to study at uh at Medusa. Um that was in 2004 when the results came. We submitted the final mark, then I got selected, then I went there to study medicine. Now, I think that time it was when there was uh it was it changed uh administration because it was it became the University of Limpopo following the measure between the then the Medical University of Southern Southern Africa and the and the University of the North. So I started my first year. And one thing that was much great about this is because she was in front of me, at last ahead of me. So obviously she will always provide me with guidance as I come along to say, oh, this first year, this is these are the challenging uh causes that you need to look into, and this is how you get around it. And I had a smooth part, I mean, through the So Miss Modise was your mentor and guide.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

That's cool. For sure, yeah. I'm a teacher too. And it's very interesting. I mean, medicine is it's not by any means easy to study, and she still had to be a teacher part-time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Exactly, yeah. You can imagine. I mean, she but obviously after once she passed first year, then second year, now she has to be full-time. She she she had to resign as a teacher. But I think also the reason why she could not leave completely because she also needed a source of income. It was a source of income for her to I mean, to sustain herself.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

So yeah, so it was it was uh Well, speaking of that, uh did you did you pay for your studies or how did that work?

SPEAKER_00 16:46

No, no, no. We we got uh fortunately I'm I got the bazaar from uh Limpopo province. Because of your your top marks, yeah? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So they used to give uh bazarus to top achieving and also um Are there any strings attached to that? Of course, there will always be strings. What's the string? The catch. But you see, you will never think about it at that time because you just want to go to school. So what's the catch? The catch is that once you're done, then you can't choose where you are where you must work. You must go back to uh the province and save the province. For a specific number? For the space for the equal number of years that the they have sponsored you. So if they sponsor you for five, six years, then you must serve them for six years. Do you think that's fair? Of course. Yeah, I think it's fair. Of course. From uh of course it's fair. I mean, it's fair that you m there has to be a little a way of payback because you you can't just I mean, they're investing on on they're investing in expectation of a return. So I think it's fair. But uh, I think to a particular extent they must be able to be flexible to say, look, if you want to proceed and go and further your studies and specialize, they should be able to give you that uh opportunity to to exercise that. But I think they were a bit r uh strict when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

To me it makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Yeah, it does. But uh how was med school? Med school it was very nice, it's it's very nice. You see, uh I I think for me in med school I did almost what every everyone could have wished to do, you see, as as a medical uh as a medical student. So I was there, I was studied, I was involved in student politics at a very early age. In my start, I think on my second year, I was involved in activism, I got elected into the student representative council.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

What does that mean? I mean, uh being uh an activist as a student med school.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Med school, so usually it's a political activities where you've got different parties, uh, comes from the NC, SASCOs, you've got PASMAs, and I was a member of PASMA, very problematic. Problematic. Yeah, no, no, no, it's not a union, it's a student uh uh uh yeah, student organization. Explain because the Pan-African student movement of a zone is uh yeah, is is is the student wing of the PAC. So I was uh no, it's uh uh fighting for the rights of students. Okay. Free for education to be excluded because of financial. And also they partake in in they get elected into the leadership of the student representation. So I was uh part of that and I think on my second year in 2007, was it 2007? Yeah, 2007, 2006, 2007, I got elected into the Student Representative Council as a deputy president.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

That's from uh SMU. Yeah, the Sepak. It was of course Sepakumakad. No, that time was still University of Limpopo.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah, okay. Yeah, it was University University of Limpopo. So I served for about a period of one year. And you see the thing about it, it was a bit challenging because you see, when when you serve in the in the in the SRC, it takes much of your time. And you find yourself in a situ in a situation whereby you you you no longer focus much on your studies, you focus much on the office work and all this. To such an extent, to be honest, the way I had end up having to fail the second year. Yeah, I failed one the second I had to repeat uh uh second year.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Then uh I was out of office and I moved on and because you mentioned it, I was gonna ask, that surely that takes up so much of your time. Exactly. And the lecturers, do they get to know you? Of course they will know you.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Yeah, yeah, because uh I mean controversially so. Uh Yashu, you on the you were on the SRC, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Uh uh I was in the house committee for one of our houses. Oh, the house committee is different. But how does it tell us about those dynamics now?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

How do the lecturers Yeah, there's it's uh it's very you know, I'll tell you a story, because there was a time um I was uh I was in the SRC. I didn't even know when when when I were writing, when when is the test been written? When are the like I never used to attend most of the lectures. Now there was a time I had a friend of mine, I know him, he doesn't really like studying that much. You know, this guy. Then I was walking, I I just came from the meeting in Teflok. Then when I was walking uh to the administration building, then I saw him sit going to the library. I was like, why are you going there? He says, no, I'm going to study. I was like, you studying? What's happening? I said, no, there is a test. At two is a practical, is a pathology, it was a pathology practical test that they were writing. And some reason is like, okay, let me go and take a chance and go and I didn't even know that there was a test. You were supposed to be writing this thing. Yeah, I'm supposed to be writing. You see? Then I went and took a chance, went and wrote, guess what happened? It was the most difficult as I think most of the class failed. But uh when the result came out, it was like, hey, no, who is the no, many people fail, but the lowest is 23%. Okay, I then I was a bit relieved because I was like, if 20, if the lowest is 23%, I should be somewhere in the middle there around that. God forbid not to know that that 23% was me.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Okay, yeah. Yeah, you beat my record, but my lowest mark is 27 in first year. Chemistry. Chemistry of all things.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Yeah, it was then I was like, uh corner, no, there is a anyway. That was the there wasn't much we can do about that. It was very yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

So how did you survive then med school? You know, juggling all these things?

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Yeah, it was uh it was it was very difficult. So when I went out of office, then I I started I had to make a decision to say what whether I must still continue this thing and or go back and focus on my studies, you know. And I just uh I decided no, let me just focus on my studies. And because most of the most of the guys who were there, some of them they spent many years uh doing medicine, the medical school long before I came in, then they were still there, and they haven't even completed. Some of them they spent 12 years.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

So what medicine was a part-time thing, the SRC was a part time?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah, a full-time job. So I said, look, I Is it a paid position? Do you get paid for it? Well, no, not really paid, but uh well, they give you an allowance to pay half of the fees, they pay, they give you a discount of 50%. But you see, the that activism and the uh I mean that excitement around that it makes it. It's exciting, isn't it? Very exciting. Extremely exciting, I must I must be honest with you. And uh is uh And is it like a stepping stone into politics externally or most of most people they they uh they use that as a stepping stone. Uh some of the guys who were who who are who are in government now, uh they started the started the I think the former MSU of Khauting, of Halton Khauting was also the president of the SRC in the same institution. Okay. So is uh it opens doors kind of. It does, it does. It does open door.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

And gives you a network also. I mean, I'm sure you built a network.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Yeah, you build a network, you get to know as many people as you as you in high positions, so it becomes easy for you once you finish, then you've got your qualification, you can easily uh step up into uh some of these p political positions.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

So And you didn't touch on the the do the lecturers not look at you as a troublemaker or this or that or the other, not really. What did they that work?

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Well, not really, but uh uh is it's not necessarily the lecturers per se. Is it's mainly the management. You see, the management are the ones that do look at you as a as a as as a travel maker, you know? And a lot just uh uh uh they make you yeah, you look like a travel maker. So when you reach there, then you're that's when they look at you and say, yeah, now we have now is our time to catch it. Used to travel as a student. I remember Professor Professor Robert Golelo was uh is uh the orthopix surgeon, yeah. He was the acting deputy vice chancellor at that time. And we used to have uh meetings with him and troublesome and and all this thing. So when I went to when I was in fifth year, so now it's okay, he's no longer in politics now. He's in my when I was rotating orthopedics. Hey, what are they calling? Every x-ray, you see, every in the morning meeting when they put an x-ray there to interpret, yeah. It's the first thing deputy president.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

See, okay. I was gonna ask you, what does he call you? Does he call you mortar, but he calls you deputy president? Yeah, it goes with deputy president.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

So, you know, for my old rotation, I had to interpret all the x-rays. Prof. Yeah, start there. Any questions that come, no, it goes, it comes to me. And I was like, yeah, no, this is a payback time.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

But uh, shout out to the prof. Maybe we'll get him on the show one day.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Have you heard have you seen that one?

SPEAKER_01 27:08

There's a one TikTok meme where it says when you're senior, if you're a junior doctor and if your senior refers to you as doggoteller, then you know trouble is coming. For sure. Yeah. Okay. So deputy president. Right. Yeah. So you survived, but you survived undergrad.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

I survived undergrad. And yeah, I survived undergrad and uh I I I completed, I think, uh, eight years after that because of the two years that I lost because of student politics. So eight years after that, then I I finally graduated and went and did my internship in Rastenberg. This is 2013 now, I'm guessing. Yeah, 2013, yes, yeah, yeah. Went to do my internship in Rastenberg for two years, then I went back to the Popo because uh they gave me the sponsors my studies, so I had to go back and save my province, you know. And so I did my uh my community services one year in nice rural area, a small hospital in rural areas uh called George Masabin. Okay. Yeah, it's uh it's in Waterback district in Nimpopo. Right. So after I finished that, then I moved to to to Petersburg Provincial Hospital. Then I took up an MO post in general surgery. Why general surgery? Well, by that by then we never had a choice. So what uh when you apply, they just allocate where there is a shortage. Initially I wanted to do orthopaedic surgery. Uh to I wanted I was so fascinated about how these guys when they uh fixed the the bones and uh from Rastinberg, the way they were operating and all. So I got so fascinated. I knew I wanted to be a surgeon, but uh I was like, yeah, but orthopedics is not it's not too bad, you know. Then I wanted to do, but unfortunately I got allocated it to general surgery. I said, okay, no, maybe after six months I'll change and switch to orthopedics. Then when I was there, then I met the guys there, they showed me how to operate, then I was like, I know. Who's the guys? Give them names. Well, I the the first gentleman that I met, he was an MO, his name was Dr. Mongwe. Uh Kenny Mongwe. I trained with him as well during our registry. He was such a good uh very good when it comes to operating. I was amazed by the way you operated. So he came, taught me how to do first uh appendicitis, appendisectomy, sorry. It was open appendisectomy, and I was like, okay, this is how it's done. Then I you see when you keep on learning and you get then the next thing you do a gastroscopy, colonoscopy, then it's okay, he shows. Then uh the then there was um a gentleman, old gentleman, his name was Dr. Pupishev. You know, he I think he's retired now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Sounds European almost.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

So that that I think it's Russian. It sounds like he's bad at cooking. Eastern European. I'm not sure. Is that Russia or Poland? One of the one of those Eastern European type. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I rotated. Uh fortunately I happened to rotate in his unit and the and Which facility is this again? Yeah. That was in Petersburg. Okay, yeah, Petersburg, yeah. Petersburg Provincial was. So he he taught me a lot. I mean, he's uh taught me a lot. And uh for that reason, then I was like, ah forget about orthopedics now. He showed you the light.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Yeah, it showed me the light. So so how does it work if I can ask in like a rural setup like that? Because it's not an academic post. So they're just MO's and then immediately consultants. There's no regis or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Well the the yeah, there is there there were no regis at that time. It's just MO and consultants. So for the medical officer, consultants, then we just we just learn. But uh what even uh uh but we were allowed to can write the examinations from the college and uh primaries, everybody were almost I think almost everybody in Popo had the primaries at that time, you see. So I had no choice. I had to write them myself. With intention of specializing, obviously. Obviously, yeah, with intention of specializing because you could see that yeah, the the department is uh at that time was a bit struggling because we didn't really have uh many specialists, so you can see in the long run the department might collapse, you know. So you don't want to find yourself in a place where the department is no longer uh functional as as you. So I wrote my primaries, I passed them first time. Then the next thing was what's the next option? I had to go somewhere to specialize in a proper academic uh uh uh hospital where I can get the proper training under supervision and start my career. So after I passed, then I well I decided very bravely I went and I called Professor Koto. Uh personally I just called him, took my phone, I called him and said, Prof. Said yes, no. Wait, how did you have his number? No, the the numbers are there in Switchboard. Okay. So it's not from the activism times.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

No, no, no. Also tell the viewers, prof Koto explain who he is so people because not everybody is gonna know who Prof.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Oh Prof. Koto is uh he's the head of department of surgery at as uh at Sfakumachatu, Al Sansi University, because that's where I trained. I think when I when I was about to finish, he had just been appointed. It's almost about a year after he was appointed, that's when I we we finished. So I had done the last year of my surgery rotation under him. That was when he just started. So and at that time, SMU was doing quite very well in terms of the training. Uh probably was the best training institution in the country because um and they were pioneer of minimal excess surgery.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

This is under prof coto. In a nutshell, he is a top dog of surgery, one of the top dogs in the country, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

So to pick up the phone, you you said you took a chance.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yeah, I took a chance. Uh look, uh let me call him. You see. Yeah, and he was he was quite friendly. So, look, I I I I studied there. I've just finished my primaries, I'm stuck in Petersburg. And Did he know who you are? He probably no. No, he didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Dealing with so many students.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Yeah. So he said, look, uh, it's fine, come and see me, you know. Wow. So I had to drive from Limpopo to come and see him in this office. Then we spoke. I said, no, put your send your papers across. When we get a post, we'll we can we might consider you. So now what made uh things easy for me is that the when I was in in in in Polokane, I I was uh I rotated in a unit uh which was headed by a gentleman, it's an old professor, professor name was Professor Andrew Mahoski. So he was uh good communication with Prof. They know each other, they used to come and so he he asked Professor Mahoski how there is this guy called Motler, he came and said he wants to be a surgeon. How is he? Unfortunately, he was very impressed with me, uh Prof. Mahoski, uh my work ethics and how we we work together in his unit. And he's the one who gave him a uh who gave him uh a thumbsack, says, Look, thumbs up, say, no, he's a good idea, yeah, he's a good gentleman, you know. So how I know about it is because Prof. Mahoski asked me, said, Did you apply in SMU? I said, yeah. He said, No, Prof. I said, No, you're a good guy. I mean you're a hard-working um uh medical officer, you should be able to go toward to to get through without any problems. So it's always good to have a reference. I mean But also you took the initiative.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

I mean a lot of people will just say, you know what, I'm not gonna call prof. It's it's awkward. You know? You took the initiative, you called him, and look, he didn't say, sorry, who are you by. Exactly. He was receptive and he actually he investigated further by you know consulting with Mahowski and um checking things out. So sure, that's a cool story.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Exactly. Yeah. No, I had to because I I was like, uh I I've got nothing to lose. I was about to say you had nothing to lose. Yeah, let me just call prof and then hear what he says. But yeah, he was quite receptive and was uh welcoming and I was I was quite very impressed. I was like, okay, no, that's fine. So well fast forward, then I had put my all my documents across uh to the secretary. I'm just waiting if there is a post comes out, then I'll I'll apply, then it should be co considered. So well, while I was still waiting, then I applied in in Jovek, Gen, in in Bara. And then they called me for an interview first.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

To specialize also?

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Yeah, in general surgery. So I applied. I think it was uh somewhere around uh July or so. So they were the first one to call us for interviews in in at Vets. So I went there for an interview. Very awkward. Why? Very awkward. And because you see, it's a it's it's it's a different environment. I'm not uh I'm not from Vets, I'm from SMU. And I think I remember one of the first questions that I was asked when I when when I my first question in the interview, Professor Martin Smith uh asked me, but you you are I can see you on your CV, you studied at the University of Limpop. SMU, a very good institution. Why do you not want to go back there? You know? Why do you want to come to Vets? Vets SMU is much better than Vets. Why do you want to come here? You know, I was like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

That was a very loaded question. That's not like a trick question.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

I was just trying to say, like, oh no, we are better. Yeah. How did you answer that? It was very loaded. So I I could pick it up that okay, no, this is uh it's it's literally trying to find out if I'm here by default. Maybe I didn't get uh accepted in SMU or not. But I was like, no. My answer was very simple. I mean, if SMU can be great, it means someone made it great. And if uh if if if it takes a person to make an institution great, I'm also I can also be one of the of the person to make vets a great uh surgical training in the long run. So that's why I chose to come to to this university. So I would have accepted you just based on that answer.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Did you get it? No, I I I but when I left that interview, I was like, I'm 100% sure. Yeah, I'm not gonna be called back. I was like, no, no, here probably I did the worst uh than everybody. But for uh surprisingly, I was called for a job for a concert, yeah. I was called then I went to now prior being called, they also called me for interviews in in SMU, George Mukari. So I went there also as well and went for interviews and it all it went well. So I was still waiting for response from Bosa. Whoever comes first, I can't I can't I can decline. So I I took the the the Vet posts. I think it was uh I started in October. Yeah, October 2016. Okay. So they posted me in text up. I was first first month, I was miserable because it was very far from from I didn't know anyone. It was very far. It was like, okay, so one month went, then November, then they called me in SMU. They say, okay, now you've got a post. I immediately put my resignation. What? I'm telling you, no hesitation, nothing. Was it not awkward? It was, but I had I was like, no, I cannot uh afford to lose an opportunity to go and train in that in SMUs. Uh that's where the pioneer of minimal excess surgery is. So and I mean nobody uh blamed me. Even the consultants who were who I was working under, they told me, look, if you got a job in SMU, you take it, man. You you cannot not afford to go there, you see. Because they knew what is uh what is at stake there. The academic program, it was uh superp and the training was it was great.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

So it's like you joined Man United and then Real Madrid called you two months later, and then you were Yeah, I don't know if it was a soccer parcel. To put it in soccer terms, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Exactly, yeah. So what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 40:50

You you l you had to go.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

And so Nobody had any there was no bad feelings or no, there was I mean the consultants was not bad for the uh I think Prof. Understandably I had to understandably so, because I mean you just gave a job, hardly two months you're you have left. I mean so what can we do? I had to go back to SMU, is home at the end of the day, he's home. Then I felt like now I'm home. Yeah, now I'm home.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Now we can understand why prof asked that question in the interview.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

It was actually a very good question to ask.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Prophylactic question. Yeah, exactly. Make sure you don't run away.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

He knows that I might be uh so yeah, it was uh interesting. So we my uh then I went to SMU, started my training, it went sailing very smooth. We wrote the our intermediates, uh it went well, we passed and even wrote our final. And uh yeah, so we I I finished my my my my training record time.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Then yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Because there's no student activism also disturbing you there also focused. The program let that happen anyway.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

It's tough. That program in that place, yeah. Yeah, it's like it's like a it's like a military. I don't even I don't know how to it's very tough. It's very tough. There is no time to to play there.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Look, the listeners won't be able to see the glint in your eye. You're saying it's tough, but you you're saying it with a expression of fond memory. Like it was good tough. I don't know if I'm reading your body language correctly, but no, it's nostalgic about it.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Like at the end of the day, it it was good because you you'll see it in hindsight once you start practicing outside as an independent surgeon that the toughness that you got during your training um it places you where you are now, where you are very much competitive, you can outlast your your your colleagues from other institutions. So uh and and the care that you give to your patients. I mean, it's it's very amazing. And you see it all because of the toughness in the training that you received in the institution. So it was uh it wasn't an easy one, very tough, and uh it and you'll see it later when we practice uh it prepared you for exactly for a tough world out there.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

So yeah, what happens after um special uh what the Rage Post?

SPEAKER_00 43:32

It's four years, right? Yeah, it's it's actually five years. Five, yeah. Yeah, but uh I think we we wrote in uh literally in three and a half years uh yeah of our rich post. So the other one and a half year we've just finished with doing research and and and doing yeah. But within three and five half years we we had to wrote our exams and we're we're done.

unknown 43:59

So

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Is that where you met uh our family member, which is my cousin and and his his sister and our previous guest, Tegesha?

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Tagesha, yeah. I think Tagesha we started together on the same day. So when we started, I think it was the this we're in the same court when we started our Rach posting SMU. I think how many were we were four. I think it was me, Tagesha, Matala. Uh who's the fourth one? I'm missing someone. But mainly the throw of us we we started together.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

It was uh I'll throw you under the bus and ask you what was your first impression of Tegesha? Did you think she was like the tea auntie?

SPEAKER_00 44:46

No, for the listeners, she's very short. No, no, no. I met her for the f I met her in the interviews in in Joburg for the first time. Yeah, I think she was following me or she was just in front of me. And she told me, no, so when I saw you in Joelbeck, I was like, who is this guy? What is what is he doing here? Yeah, so we went to the same interview and also I met her again in SMU when we went for the second interviews. And uh surprisingly, when I saw her, she's starting with us in SMU, I was like, okay. Yeah, no, look. I was like, no, she thought I was uh I was irritating because I came to my institution now. Big yeah. See, but that that was not the case. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

But from the one thing I remember like speaking to Tigesha around that time when she was doing a rich time, she'd always mention you. She'd always say more this, motla that. Yeah. Like she did speak about you fondly. About what used to happen. So how was it working with her?

SPEAKER_00 45:53

No, no, no, it was great. I think she she she played a very good great role in my in my study life because we used to study together and most uh most of the time and even uh you know when you are a wretch, uh obviously you need to have someone that you can share ideas with, you can study together, you can ask each other questions, and that's part of training. See. So I think we went it went very well with her. She's a very she's very intelligent, I must be honest with you. So I was not even surprised where she almost got a medal in uh in our exams. Almost, but to get a medal. Just that we're sabotaged by the technology because the electricity went off. All the the I mean the computers went off when they have to restart it, it was almost time up. You know? Yeah. Yeah. But she she she she we we did work very nicely. And uh and most of the time, most of the rotation we did together, and uh it w it was it was okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

I think the takeaway for me from that this story is that rich time is you know you're not an island, right? You of course you need to be working together with people, even though it's you everybody has to write their own exam.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

Exactly, yeah. Yeah, you need to work together. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Okay. You can because it's a lot of you. Because remember when we are there, I can always I can learn something from you. You learn something from uh teach you something, you teach me something. So that's how you that's how the process of learning uh happens. Because you can't sit there and open a book and read the white.

SPEAKER_03 47:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

You may not you may read but don't understand what you are reading. So at least if someone explains uh the concept, then I can understand it better, then I can teach you something.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

That's how the Especially with surgery, I I assume, because it's a very practical approach. Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Yeah, yeah. It's a very practical approach. Training is almost like a team sport, training as a surgeon. Exactly, yeah. That that's a right way. Yeah, it's it's like a team sport. So you you play within the team. You see. So what you know, uh you're able to to can share the knowledge with someone else. And and it works better that way. Because what what we have been taught, you'll I I find it much easier to remember what has been taught to me rather than something that I've read in the in an article or in a book. See. So I think uh that helped in indeed. But it was not only Tagesha, it was a lot of of the guys who were there. I think Mongo as well. He was uh he was with us and the other guys who were doing Charlie's, Gomas, Pudles, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Is surgery still like male dominated? Well when I say dominated, I mean predominantly. I don't predominantly because if I say male dominant dominated, it might give the impression that m men are doing better. What I mean is are there more women or more men still? More men.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Yeah, uh from my own uh observation, I think it's mainly uh male. The males who are surgeons, but uh I think uh things are changing now. Um we have s we have many uh female registrers uh currently far much more than males. So they probably have steadier hands, right? Yeah, and also the interest because you see the surgery is is very tough, it's demanding, needs a lot of time and a lot of work. So you need someone who can commit and uh be there to to work. It's a lot of work that has to be uh that goes into surgical training. So but I see there's a lot of females who are who are doing very well and they are coping very well and then and yeah, and the the majority of them they're they're doing quite very well. I'm impressed with what uh what with the work that they do and their work ethics as well.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

I made the joke about steadier hands. I don't know if this is a myth or not, but you know the sport, archery, right, where you shoot uh an arrow. And apparently women do better at it because they can control their breathing and their heart rate better, and therefore when they release that, they they're a steadier shot. So I don't know if that's true or not. I read it or heard it somewhere, but you never know, it might translate into surgery also, you know? Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Uh exactly. Yeah, no, sure. I I I've I've known a lot of uh very great uh female surgeons that uh uh I've I've worked with uh with a lot of uh very great female surgeons. So there's a lot of them as some of our mentors are females, very great, brilliant, and uh you could see during the rotation when they teach you, you can see your uh this is this is these are very very good hands. So yeah, so there there is a lot uh that uh uh females uh uh are doing to contribute to newsurgical knowledge. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

What happens after edge time? What's next for Dr. Motler? You know in you know in in KZN, I don't know if it happens at SMU and things. Once you specialize, apparently you're no longer doctor, you become mister.

unknown 51:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

Yeah, I think this is a I think this is a is a thing which happens in KZN. But uh with us uh still Dr. Motler. Yeah, I still doctor.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

So once you get once you got specialist, now what happens after edge time? Where do you go? What do I you specifically? Me.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

No, I'm still at SMU. Yeah. Uh I'm still at SMU, so I got appointed um as a as a medical specialist in the trauma unit. So I'm in trauma. So I work there as a consultant.

SPEAKER_03 52:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

And uh at the moment. So I I'm still there. Um trauma sounds hectic. What's what's the day in the life of a trauma surgeon? Yeah, it's very hectic. It's very hectic, especially uh in our country is very hectic because this is where you see a lot of penetrating trauma. Far more than many countries in the world. Penetrating trauma in South Africa is a lot. So it down for us dentists. Penetrating trauma, give us examples like penetrating trauma is a trauma from your gunshot step and all yeah. Every day trauma sharp objects. Every day. You see, in Europe. In Europe, the the whole of Europe, they they don't see much of trauma. The trauma they see is blood trauma, but MVAs, is it MVAs, you know? They hardly see penetrating trauma. You see, the whole of Europe, what they see in a year, is what we'll probably see in one day. One day now in one institution. Not not even in the whole of South Africa. I'm just talking about one trauma unit. Are you? It's what they see in in insofar as penetrating trauma.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

So there's not a day that goes by where there won't be penetrating trauma in your department.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

No. Is it always there? If you go there every day. You see, where where I'm working, we're saving the whole of the north, northern part of Gauteng. Yeah. So shangguba, Winterfeld, and Maupan, Haramkua, and there's a lot and lot of trauma, including Hamaskral. So most of those patients they come to us. But what causes them? It's just a lot of uh it's mainly a lot of crime. I mean, it's a it's a national problem. It's a lot of crime in just in South Africa and when guns are everywhere and people go and rob and shoot each other. So we see a lot of uh of of of of gunshot wounds that we treat. I think uh there was I think a couple of years, two two years back, I I went to I went to Norway. So they've got they were built a trauma unit. So when I look at the state, the national statistics, in one year, they've only seen three penetrated trauma patients. They've got a beautiful facility, they've got everyone is there, they've got doctors, they've got nurses, they've got everyone, all the equipment you can imagine, uh best equipment in the world, but there is no patients. There are no patients. And it was like, yo.

SPEAKER_02 54:43

Yeah, but that's why the Scandinavians actually love to come and train here in South Africa.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Exactly, so that they can imagine. You can imagine three penetrating trauma in one in one year. That's a quiet day for you. That's a quiet day. Yeah, that's a quiet day for us. I was like, three.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

I know that's that's nothing. Can I ask you? I mean, I've heard the story from a few doctors. I don't know if it's true or not, but in your experience, have you also seen it where a patient will come in with a stab or whatever, and then you ask them who did this to you, and they say it was my friend.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

Yeah, you see, the trauma patients you mustn't believe them. They will always tell you different stories. So they are never truthful most of the time.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

So it's not really their friend that's stabbing them, but sometimes it can be.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

It it can be. There's a lot. I've seen someone got stabbed by his brother, half-brother, and uh there's a lot of stories. Is there always alcohol involved? Yeah, that was my mainly, mainly, yeah. Mainly alcohol does contribute. And I'll tell you the reason why, because during COVID, there was a time where there was a lockdown, there was no alcoholism sort. I can tell you we hardly had patients. There was a time we spent about three days without admitting anyone. Scandinavian. You see? So I can attribute that to alcohol uh to a certain extent, but uh sometimes but mainly it's it's mainly crime, you know? It's mainly crime.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

On that note, if I can ask you like a uh relative question from um from a clinical perspective. So I do a lot of wisdom and implant surgery. And um like our nicerists are so pedantic with the patients staying NPO. And then I'm thinking, uh, you know, like what if I just ate something now and I go onto the load and someone comes and stabs me and I I come to you. Like, are you gonna ask me, oh, did you eat anything just now? Can we actually take you under is that like relevant?

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Well, if for elective cases, it's relevant. They always want. But it doesn't mean if you have eaten something, they can't give you anesthesia. They can give anesthesia, it's just that there is a certain way in which they they they they they do the anesthesia. Okay, but that's not your own. It's risky to give anesthesia if someone has eaten. So rather if it's not an emergency, something is not gonna kill you, rather wait than take a risk. But if it's you have been stepped and you've been drinking alcohol, obviously you are you are full, your stomach is full of alcohol, so you can easily vomit and aspirate. But the fact that you we we need to treat you supersede the fact that you can aspirate or not. So the risk, you weigh the risk and the benefit of proceeding with the with the procedure.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

So what what procedure specifically makes you feel like really cool to be a surgeon? Like when you do something, you feel like, damn. Yeah, I'm good. Do you have any of those? Or is it everything? Or and you, you know, don't be humble, yeah. But like genuinely, when you go home at night and you've done XYZ, do you get that feeling? No.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

Not not necessarily a specific procedure, but uh I guess uh I like my uh a lot of thoracic surgeries. Okay. Uh from the trauma point of view. That's what I that's that that's my field of of interest. I like a thoracic surgery. What's that, like stab heart? Yeah, something like the stab heart, stab chest, uh, gunshot chest and all this when you do a procedure. It's fulfilling for me. You see, where you are able, especially if uh you're able to get a patient with a stab heart you treat and the patient survives, goes home and come back to SOPD to see you for a review. You can really see, or this guy. This gentleman almost uh uh was almost gone. You saved the guy's life. That's cool, eh? Yeah. You can imagine within a matter of seconds he was dead. But now you're able to You see, this is why they say the surgeons have some God complex, eh?

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Because you you changed the guy's life.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

It it it is very fulfilling. I mean, to see this gentleman and it's like, oh. That's so cool, eh? Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah, but uh I guess for any for any surgery, I mean, if you do a surgery, it becomes successful. I think as a surgeon, uh you you you you you get much more happier to see a patient surviving uh for the from a procedure that uh is life-saving. So I wouldn't really have say specifically uh a particular surgical procedure, but any that is able to change the the life of the not necessarily to keep the patient alive, but even if it changes the condition, I mean the the the the uh the the condition of living of the patient, it improves the uh uh his conditions to be much better. I mean because we see a lot of pharmacology patients, cancer patients who are struggling and they will operate those patients, you improve their quality of life. You may not necessarily cure the them from the cancer, but the procedure that you do that improved the the condition of life, I mean the the quality of life, it goes much a long way. And does it do you not get stressed in this line of work? You you you'll you you'll definitely get distressed, especially if you if you if you lose a patient that you think you should have sal salvaged that patient. And it does happen. I mean, uh it it happens to any surgeon. Yeah. So there are patients that you you think maybe if you could have done something differently, or you could have that patient would have been alive by now. But unfortunately the patient is there. But uh one thing for sure is that uh there is no doctor who wakes up in the morning and says, no, I'm gonna kill a patient today. I'm gonna make sure that this patient that I operate makes sure that he doesn't survive. No, no one does that. But uh sometimes it happens that you operate and there are complications and the worst uh case scenarios when those complications end up uh taming the life of the patient. Those are very devastating. It can actually very devastating complications. So that's why part of the training, surgical training, has always been the emphasize on recognizing surgical complications. For every patient that you touch and you operate, you must always know what are the complications and anticipate those one, recognize them and sort them out. They will always come. But as long as you're able to recognize that this is a complication from the procedure and able to act on it and make sure that the patient doesn't come to harm at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

And when you have these unexpected outcomes, because it's gonna happen to every surgeon, right? Yeah. Who supports you? Who do you speak to, debrief? Do you have like counseling or therapists or just keep it inside?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

Unfortunately, yeah. For surgeons, we we really don't have counselling. I yeah, you're right. Actually, it's one thing that you we really need. But uh unfortunately, yeah, we we really need to have counselling because it's we go through a lot. People think, uh no, these are surgeons. You know, sometimes the the sisters think, oh, the surgeons they just like want to operate. I mean of course we have to because I mean if you had a bad outcome on one patient, you cannot say, no, I'm no longer a doctor, now I'm no longer a surgeon, I can't operate anymore. There are still many, a lot and lot of patients who need your services, you see. Then you can't pack your back and say, okay, I'm going. But can't you guys start something at the hospital where you have like a you know, you debrief after something? We do, yeah, we do. I mean, especially uh if you had the case that uh end up uh with with uh bad outcomes. So we'll just sit around in debrief and uh and talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

But I know I think he's asking from uh psychologically support system. Because what is that the mortality and morbidity meeting that's the same? No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:05

Uh as part of the team, for that one is separate. Yeah. That's for quality assurance purposes from the hospital to say how can we improve from whatever that's a mortality and morbidity. But within the team which was involved with uh with the management of that patient, you sit around to say, look, uh this is this happened one, two, three, but uh uh then we debrief, we encourage each other, say, look, we have identified where the problem is. Next time we must be make sure that uh we uh whatever that happened, we look out for for complications like that. Whatever that is.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:42

It just feels unfair. It feels a bit unhealthy for you guys to have to carry this thing with you and just move on to the next patient.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:48

Exactly. Yeah, it's it is, but uh fortunately that's the nature of the thing. Yeah, that's the nature of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

You uh maybe in 20 years' time it'll be different and we'll Yeah, hopefully so. We'll have the luxury of those kind of things because I guess you guys are also really busy. Like patients are you too.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

Because you see uh the services that you offer, uh there are thousands and thousands of patients that will benefit from your services. So you can't say I'm pegging my back, so I'm no longer into this business of surgery anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:23

When a patient demises, do you have to go and speak to the family and we we we we do.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

Uh they train you on that? Uh how to do it. Well, it's not part of the curriculum for how for registered training, but uh or any training. Even undergrad. I think an undergrad it was there. Uh I think when I think during the third year there was a there was like two lectures. Family medicine, yeah. Part of family medicine where there's a breaking bad news and debriefing and all those. Yeah, it was there. But uh yeah, we we have to because you see the thing is when you when you operate on a patient, even the patient himself or herself must be told what exactly you have done to you. Don't just operate, then you you hide and you don't give inform disclose all the full information. If there was a complication, you must be honest. You see, you're honest with the patient. Because sometimes you see it doesn't help to give healthy information to the patient. So maybe this you disclose. Tell the patient this is what was done, this is the complications which happened, and this is how we manage the complications. So you must try by all means to be as honest as possible.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

And open to the patient. Even the family members do the same thing. And in that way, I feel like it will also relieve you as an individual. Say, I've told the truth to the patient, I've told the truth to the family members.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:54

But it's a difficult conversation to have, eh? It's very well I can't imagine it. I can't imagine it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

Well it's it's it's uh it's a difficult conversation, but uh it's something that has to be done. Yeah. At the end of the day. And it gives you much of a relief because you have told the patient exactly what what happens, what transpired.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

So what do you do to de-stress? What do you do for fun? Tell us the more cost to do. Non-professional side, what do you do for fun? Well, uh weekends. Don't tell me operate, please. Something else.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

Any hobbies? That's a hobby of a surgeon. You find yourself in theater.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

Yeah, but because you said like theater is where you guys live. Like who's you here now? Who's who's operating?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

Someone who's operative at the moment. So remember, we we work as a team and see, it's not like uh it's uh and it's a unit that has to be around 24-7. Yeah, 24-7. So when the others are there, the others are are working. So part of uh look, I I is uh I don't really have a specific say no that's what I distressed.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:05

A little birdie told me to jazz or something?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

Yeah, yeah, for sure. That is that that's my therapy, you know? Yeah, I listen to jazz as uh that's uh that's what I learned from my father. He was a jazz fanatic, he loves jazz. That's how I grow up. I grew up listening to jazz music. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:23

And hold on, I'm gonna move on from jazz because I I don't know anything about jazz, right? But there is something on YouTube that I watch quite often. It's called Tiny Desk Concert. Have you ever heard of it? A tiny desk concert is basically they get like famous people and it's in like an office setting. It looks like a library like a library. Like a library slash office, right? And the guests perform there and they call it a tiny desk concert because it's like that. But anyway, what happened is last night, um, and you probably know this person, I'd never heard of them. Um the name is uh Nduduzo uh Makatini. Makatini, yes. So he was featured on Tiny Desk. You must go watch it. Came out last night. Oh, okay. So I watched it for the first time, and it was awesome. The guy is like it's it's art almost. It's so eccentric and eclectic and all that stuff. And it was such a coincidence because this birdie told me that you're into jazz, so I said I must tell you to go watch that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:19

Do you play and stuff? Or no, no, no, I don't play. I just I just I just I just listen to jazz. I just listen. And love jazz music.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:27

Cigar and whiskey and jazz lounge. Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:29

Okay. They they go hand in hand. Yeah, yeah, um glass of uh of whiskey there or cognac and yeah, sit in the lounge there and listen to jazz and reflect on your life. But uh moreover, I mean I spent uh most of my quality time with my family and uh my wife and and and my children and and yeah. How many kids? Uh I've got now you. It lost counting. Putting me in the corner. Yeah. So I think uh I can say safe to say uh I can say three for now.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:17

And counting. And counting. And if if they come to you for now, huh? Yeah. Yeah, what else? Anything else? So it's family and jazz.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:26

And theater, but operating theater. Operating theater for sure for sure. Yeah. Operating theater. Yeah, so uh no regrets of chem ange? You didn't do the chem engine. No, no, no regrets. I I I think so far. Didn't feel like you wasted your brain on medicine. Not medicine, no. Not really. Uh yeah is uh yeah, no, no, no, no regrets at all. It's fulfilling. It suits you. Yeah, it's fulfilling. I mean, even uh the fact that I I I end up not doing orthopedic surgery, no regrets at all. Uh no regrets. I I I I know I've got lots of friends who are orthopedic surgeons. Um I know they're great and they're fantastic. Uh I've got nothing against orthopedic surgeons. Yeah. Yeah. They're very good guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:14

Bone bone crushes. Yeah. But and nobody wants to be a GP these days, or is that just am I just misreading things? It feels like everybody wants to specialize.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

Yeah, I think every that that's where medicine is going now, because uh the burden of disease in uh uh now is is much more broad and complex and complicated for us to have a someone who's a GP. So you always want to go out and find the specialties that you can study and and focus on that. But of course, you also need GPs as well, because those are the ones that would be able to pick up some of the small diseases that are there and refer appropriate to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:59

And build a relationship with the patient over time.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:02

Exactly, yes, and especially the family physician, because the GP uh now has been replaced, it's now slowly been replaced by family physicians. Okay. Uh, because everybody everyone wants to have a family physician that uh will treat the whole family. You see, everyone they know we're going to this few this this family physician is ours, we've got a file with him or her, and uh he he or she knows the profile of our disease in the family. So it might it makes things much easier. But uh yeah, it's just that the complexity of the diseases uh uh currently is much more complex. And also the advancement of technology uh in treatment of patients is it makes it very difficult for you the for the for the GPs to maneuver in the industry. So yeah. So I guess uh there is still a room for for them. I think they still play a very important role. But yeah. So what's next for Dr. Motler? I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:05

Any are you the next Prof. What's what's your ambition? Politics, the MEC for health.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:13

Well, no, no, politics uh no, not for you. Yeah, yeah, no. Well uh not no, I I I don't I uh for some reason I I don't really have much of ambitions uh now. Yeah, I'm at good space. I just want to focus on my family and uh yeah, focus on my family, build uh a successful family and make sure that uh yeah, we we enjoy life. Uh we just have to enjoy life.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

I mean uh stop chasing things and just enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:51

Yeah, just enjoy life and yeah, stop worrying about uh things which are which don't add any value into our life. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:59

Yeah, focus on the positive and because there's a tendency for us to think, okay, as soon as I become once I become that specialist, then my life is sorted. And then you become that specialist and you realize, okay, I need to do something else.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:12

Yeah, it's good. Okay. Yeah. So it it is uh yeah, I you you always because uh well you you you can never stop studying. That's uh that's the nature of medicine. Once you are a doctor, you must know that you have committed your life to studying. You will have to study for study for the rest of your life. So the fact that I'm not you're not pr going to a particular proceeding with further your studies and doesn't mean you formal, yes. It doesn't mean you are you have to stop uh studying. You always have to study, empower yourself and uh and and and move forward. It's very even difficult. I mean, even much more compelling for me because uh as a specialist in academic hospital, I'm also a lecturer. So you have to teach the undergraduate, you also teach postgraduate to still register the registrers. No, I'm not. They'll tell you the student, even the registrars, uh it's not it's not that strict. But you see, uh one thing that I always tell them that look, uh we we we are there to assist you. So you must always take charge of your own learning. So if you don't take initiatives to want to learn, we'll not force you to learn. So they know, but uh we're not strict. I mean, we give them an opportunity, we teach them, especially the surgical uh techniques because that's that's that's the mainstream of surgery. Surgery is not about uh theory and talking about uh it's procedure how it's done, and you have to practically do it, show you how to how to operate practically in theater. That's that's where the transfer of the skill happens. So uh if it's on show initiatives, you are not interested in wanting to learn, it becomes difficult for us to assist, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:06

Yeah, you can go to the best institution in the world to study, but if you don't put it in, yeah, again.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:10

You have to put an effort from your side.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:12

Now, on the on sorry, I interrupted you. I'm gonna say something, uh, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:16

I was just saying that uh that that's my philosophy. I mean, uh during the way as as as we teach the registers and say take initiatives and we'll we'll assist you.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:28

Okay. Yeah. Now on the topic of um you said you know, building family and all that stuff, we ask this question to all the guests on the show, right? And we'll put it in the context of your family. So if one of your kids comes to you in whenever 10 years' time or whatever, and says, uh, Papa, what do they call you? Papa, Dad. Yes. Um Daddy. Daddy, I want to I want to be a doctor, I want to do medicine.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:50

What will you tell them? No, I'll say go for it. I I I I've got no You see, I I don't want to I will I want to allow my children to make their own choices. But the before we even say, okay, they they have to finish with the reasons. Why you want to there there must be a reason why? But don't one what I will not like is I know I might be a role model as my child. Say, oh no, I want to do medicine because I want to be like daddy. You see, it it mustn't be like that. It must be your own personal choice. You say, I want to heal the nation. I want to make positive contribution to the lives of of people, you know? If they say to you, I just want to be rich. Rich. Well, that's that's a very difficult wrong place to go. Okay. If you want to be rich, medicine, no. There is not money there. You'll not be rich. And surgery, I mean, if you're not there, you're not earning. Yeah, you're not you're not earning. You have to be your time is your money. Exactly, yeah. So being rich, well chemical engineering. Yeah, no, medicine, no. You'll you'll have to exhaust, I mean, exhaust yourself. You exert yourself to the limit. And at the end of the day, it may not be it may not be really uh worth it to exert yourself to that extent. But you see, uh money is not really it's just a is it's one of the final rewards that you get uh as a doctor, even as a surgeon. Uh because money is there, you'll you'll definitely make money. But it's not the it's not one thing which is fulfilling. What is mainly fulfilling is what you the outcomes that you get from a patient. So if you've got good outcomes from the procedure, that's what's full, that's what is fulfilling. Money is just a final reward, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:50

And then you need to find time to spend it.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:52

Yeah, and which you may not have time to do that. So it's just the way to adjust how you it's always difficult to adjust work and social life, family, and it's very you you need to strike the balance. And uh and that's an area which is not as easy as it's easy said than done, but uh uh you need to strike the balance because if if if you are there and someone needs you and is uh and you are you are on call. I mean you you're busy, you go on we're supposed to go on a vacation uh with a family or a family outing. Now they call you, someone is here, you need your help. What can you do? You deserve to have to leave. Yeah, you have to go and assist them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:42

So you wouldn't discourage them. You you just want them to make an informed decision.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:46

Yes, I wouldn't discourage it. If if if they've made an informed decision that no, I want to be a doctor because I want to uh heal the nation and I think I want to contribute positively, go for it. Go for it and you must just but you must just know that is it's it's not easy. Yeah. It's tough. You have to commit yourself, you have to work hard, and it's it's not achievable. Because I uh for me, anyone can do anything. Anyone can do anything. You know, I remember when I was an undergraduate, uh one of uh professors of pathology, he once told us that you see, if you first learn how to write your name, surely you can study anything. You can study medicine, you can study law, you can study engineering. There is nothing that you the fact that you are taught how to write your own name, then you can study anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:41

That's a good point. You didn't know how to do it, and now you know how to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:44

Yeah, you know how to do it. Then what is difficult for you to study medicine? What's difficult for you to study law? You can, you see.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:50

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:51

Yeah. So that's the those are the ways that's stuck with me. I was like, no, yeah, I can be a surgeon. What is difficult about me?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:01

I learned how to write my name, I can be a surgeon.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:04

Wow. Any Dr. Motorrad, that was a fascinating conversation. Anything from your side that we missed out that you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:13

Well, uh, yeah, look not much, but uh yeah, just to say thank you very much for inviting me. Uh I really enjoyed this conversation. I really enjoyed uh I think I think you two are doing a great job. And then I can only wish you the best and uh hopefully uh things will fall into place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:42

Yeah. No, thanks, Doc. I I think for me, um I just want to say if anything ever penetrates me, I think uh you'll be my first choice. Because my that answer you gave um, you know, like they when you went to Witz, that stuck out for me because when they asked you, you know, there's another institution that's better, why are you not going there? And your your answer was immediately to strive to be better, to make something better. So and I think that is the the nature of I mean, what surgeons are. They want to do better constantly because it's a very tough environment you're in. You're always in adversity dealing with a losing situation. So I hope that you are my patient before I ever become your patient. But uh thank you so much for coming on our show. And uh yeah, we look forward to seeing what's uh what's coming up next.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:36

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, gentlemen. Sure.