SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back everyone. We've got another dentist on the show today, Dr. Mary Dowji. Thank you for making time to see us here. We're at the South African Dental Association's Congress. So in between lectures and CPD points, we're squeezing in the high profile people.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

High profile?

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Uh. Yeah. Um no, and uh today is gonna be a slightly different. You you probably haven't watched the show, but I usually run the conversation. Okay. And Yak is just sitting there, he's more for looking pretty and you know, exposure. Uh but I'm I'm delegating and let him letting him do the running of the show today. So I'll let him welcome you on speech.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Oh wow, that sounded like a whole preamble welcome there in itself. But um Yeah. Miriam, is it Mary for Short?

SPEAKER_05 0:44

Mary, let's go with Mary.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Okay, welcome to the show. And how are you enjoying uh Congress so far?

SPEAKER_05 0:49

It's been good. It's been, I think it's the first one where I'm actively or more actively involved in terms of presenting and that sort of thing. So that's been a challenge for me, um, just in terms of my growth. And we I like to do things outside of the comfort zone. So I'm always gonna say yes and then see how it goes. So that's been really nice. It's been it's actually really nice to just meet up with colleagues that you haven't seen in years. Um, the lectures have been really great, lots of learning, lots of knowledge sharing. So yeah, I've had a really good experience of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Yeah, this uh is a prime example of sharing some knowledge because people are gonna watch this later on and uh take some notes from it. Um it's a big social aspect, I think, as well. Congress is not just about learning, it's about the social aspect of dentistry, which we, I mean, as dentists are quite alienated from each other. We live and exist in our little bubbles here and there. And um, I mean, you and I uh used to be in Johannesburg. Uh you've currently relocated um recently to Cape Town. Um we'll get into that a little bit later. I must also just apologize to guests that there are going to be people walking around us, but uh that's the nature of where we are. Um yeah, so you're lecturing in a few hours' time.

SPEAKER_05 2:11

In a few hours, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yes, and you did give a lecture yesterday as well. Do you want to tell us more about those topics? What are you speaking on in this?

SPEAKER_05 2:18

So yesterday's lecture is sort of, you know, when you get into this space of this is what I know, and I'm gonna speak about it. I sort of found myself in that space with this topic. Um, and the topic is facial analysis and how we as dentists need to step back from just looking at teeth. Like we need to step away from the tiny little silo that we operate in and realize that our treatments impact people and we need to start looking at the whole. And when we look at the whole, we are looking at emotional and psychological analysis. We are looking at systemic diagnosis, DNA analysis, what is this patient actually doing with their entire well-being and wellness? Um, and then as designers or treatment planners to look at various angles and lines and elements of the face, because the frame, the face is the frame of the smile. And if we go in there and we design teeth or we do ortho or aligners or whatever your treatment is, it fits into that patient's face, right? But the knock-on effect is not that it's something that looks nice. It has to be something that that person feels is their own. Because then you have changed someone from A, not liking something, B not being healthy, because there are health elements to it as well, and C being actually being confident in who they are and what they do and how they show up in the world. And I'm a little bit like altruistic and optimistic about things at most, right? So I'm like, okay, so if I feel better about myself, I'm gonna be nicer to the person that's making my coffee in the morning and the person who's bagging my groceries because I'm in an emotional and mentally good space. But because I'm nice to them, they're gonna be nice to someone else. So it's this beautiful knock-on effect of balance and harmony in the universe, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

That's a very interesting way of looking at it because it's it's very holistic what we do. A lot of people just look at teeth in a very, you know, uh boxed way. Yes. And we don't realize that attached to that tooth there's a whole person.

SPEAKER_05 4:34

And that's how we trained. Exactly. Unfortunately, that is our training. Our training, and the reason why majority of dentists spend most of their days being miserable is because this is as far as we see. We're trained to see. Right? We're not trained to see outside of saving the molar, removing the pain. Yeah, you remove pain, you make a patient feel better. 1,000%. You diagnose disease, you treat disease, you are serving a bigger purpose. But for me, dentistry is not fulfilling if it's just root canals and c composite fillings or, you know, removal of pain. It's not meaningful enough. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

No, definitely. And it's um if I had to summarize, it's it's also uh it's quite ironic that in order for I mean your talk is very granular. Um but in order to treat more holistically, you gotta get more granular.

SPEAKER_05 5:32

You gotta get you you gotta get all the way in. Like you and it starts with the connection that you do make with patients. Yes. It starts with being able to get to tap into that. Yeah. Because people come to us dead, right? That's already barrier number one. Yeah. They are not gonna open up. They literally walk in and they tell us that they hate us.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 5:53

So now you are facing the uphill from the get-go. There's the barrier. How do you find it in yourself, in your humanness to connect to their humanness and to actually make them feel safe enough to tell you what's wrong?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah, exactly. We never asked this question to patients often enough, I think. Oh sorry, guests often enough, but tell us more about you as a patient growing up. I mean, you obviously had a dentist. I um my dentist was my dad.

SPEAKER_04 6:26

It did not go down well.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

For him or for you?

SPEAKER_04 6:29

For both of us.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Okay. Did you have quite extensive dental treatment growing up?

SPEAKER_05 6:35

So you know the story of the city. You've got nice teeth, I must say. You know the story of the cobbler and his kids?

SPEAKER_02 6:41

No.

SPEAKER_05 6:42

No. So the cobbler's kids never have shoes.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Shame.

SPEAKER_05 6:47

Right. It's like one of those idioms you grow up. It's been said. So the dentist kids, I feel, if I look at my siblings, have naturally need a lot of work. Right? So I was the kid, my dad had his practice was attached to the house, and he used to work like nights. So seven to nine he had a shift, and then he was at a different practice during the day. And we would do like six-month checkups on a Saturday afternoon, and it had like this double staircase that went up in the back.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

And And where was this? Sorry.

SPEAKER_05 7:19

It was in Lodium, in like a little like township vibe, Indian Township in Pretoria. And Saturday afternoon, six-month checkup. For the time it would take me to walk up the stairs, my brother and sister would be done with their checkups because it was a sing song. I hated it. I was terrified, I did not like it, and I don't know what it was because he was my dad, right? But that also in my adulthood and in my understanding of things tells you that a fear is not based on an experience always. A fear is sometimes just inherent. It's like it is just inside of you and it will live there until you actually intellectualize it and you actually break it down. Right. And what when I realized this was I listened to a podcast about a woman who was vehemently afraid of snakes. I just I'm so scared, I don't like them. I figured I'd never. And it was with a psychologist who took who broke it down. I said, Okay, let's get granular. What are you actually afraid of? And she said, I how do they move? It makes no sense. Like how do they move so quick and so fast and get to where they need to be so quickly?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

So she was really afraid of cars.

SPEAKER_05 8:38

Probably Well no, because the cars move with the engine and the wheels. So now that's making sense, right? And he broke down the anatomy. So they broke down the anatomy of the snake and the muscles and how the muscles actually move at the bottom in order for that thing to move. And as soon as she understood that, that irrational fear became a rational fear. I don't like them because they're gross and ugly, right? So our patients come to us, nothing could have happened in their life. They are just scared. And we have to be able to understand that language to say, your fear is irrational, so let's make it rational. Not by making you afraid of something, but by detailing the journey, by explaining the procedure, by showing you examples, by talking you through it, by doing breathing exercises together, right? To reach a level of calm so that your energy that you come in with, the fear and the anxiety, I don't take that on. Because we are all essentially energetic beings, right? And you have to be really, really strong to be able to immediately ward that off and say, I'm yet to do my job. And I I can't take on what you're feeling. And unfortunately, I'm not. I I take on the energy.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

What was it like growing up in Lodium? I I've got a Lodium story. I studied in Pretoria.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Uh your dad was one of the lecturers when I was there. Yeah, I finished in 2010. I used to go to Lodium for haircut and to have more chaos. Okay. Because uh, my friend Yasir Esop, who's now specializing to be an ophthalmologist, will get him on one day. He used to take me. We used to go to the Indian restaurants there, right? Why more chaos? Why more chaos?

SPEAKER_04 10:17

It was a hot spot.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yeah, it was a hot spot. Yeah. Um and I used to get my haircut, right? And there's a myth or there's a rumor or whatever you call it, a story. It's probably f it's probably fake news. But people have said that Lodium has the highest concentration of luxury cars or something in the world, right? It it's probably not not correct, but I believed it. And one interesting thing I saw is the guys would park their cars and I would look inside and all the seat belts would have were were done. Like were fastened. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:49

Oh, so that the car doesn't make a noise and they cannot have to wear it.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:53

Because it's cool.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

I just found that fascinating. That's cool. So what was is so it's is it because of being cool?

SPEAKER_05 10:57

Um so load.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

I'm sorry, explain that to me. Why is it one of the things?

SPEAKER_05 11:01

Because you know how it beeps when you're not plugged in? So they plug it in so that you can sit on top of the seat block. Oh, so they're still sitting there. So yeah. So why that that's what you mean, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Okay. But so they just what, they just didn't care about safety.

SPEAKER_05 11:15

Uh yeah, it's it's weird. I So let me just explain the dynamics of Lodium. Is that there is your lower class, there's for all intent and pur purpose the middle class, and then there's the upper class. And because of I I suppose cryp areas, it's divided that way, usually always separated by a railway, railway line, right? Um and so you get that excessive amount of money, like the the businessmen, that like just pulling in the money. And that's the cars and the big houses, and when you're driving, you'll see those houses on the top, the the showiness of that money and that wealth, right? Um, and then you get the poorest of the poor that are still in the sort of government subsidized housing and that level of thing. And we were pitched almost in the middle towards the poorer, right? Because my grandfather was a tailor. My grandmother was a tailor as well, until they took my grandfather took himself to school at the age of 40 and became a teacher, an Afrikaans teacher, no less. Um, and then my dad also grew up in severe poverty, like he had absolutely nothing growing up, um, and came to Cape Town to live with his grandmother to study. Um and then study dentistry. Study dentistry. And after he graduated, went back to Pretoria Um and wanted to specialize. He really wanted to be a Max Vack, as one does. Um you know, it's uh natural. And then his mom got sick and his mom passed from cancer, and so he didn't uh specialize immediately. He got married and we started to have kids and he opened up the practices. But throughout his life he knew that he wanted more because that is the lineage here. The lineage from my grandfather onwards is that what we do will not be given to us. Nothing will be given to us. We must work for it. And the way to work for it is to put your head down and study and get good grades and to prove yourself, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Yeah. So you used to put your seatbelt on?

SPEAKER_05 13:28

I used to put my seatbelt on. We also didn't have cars that beeped, right? Okay. Well, very good.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

And and and the old man was he like the community dentist? Um you know, did did he serve like the community and people came and they would say to you, hey, we know we go to your dad and he's Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:42

So he was he was he had three practices, like I said. The one was in Lodium, that was the night practice. Um then he had one in Isteris. I don't know if you know Isteris, also like a township east of Pretoria colored township.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

There's a song that says when I go to Isteris to see Mayhont.

SPEAKER_05 13:57

There we go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Oh, make the circle bigger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:02

Yeah, so he operated there, and then he had another one in Mamelodi, which is like a worse of townships there. And he would just work between all those three practices, all the while doing masters. So he's got he had a master's in um surgery, and then he started to divert to author. And he only went into author, I think, by the age of 42, 43 as well.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Yeah. So this was this the natural progression for you? Did you look up to him and say, I want to be that one day? Because you know the name of this podcast is why did I become a doctor?

SPEAKER_05 14:31

Yeah, and I feel like we're getting to that question.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Yeah, but even before we get that to there with you, did you ever ask him why why did he choose to become a dentist or um I think in that in that time it was doctor, dentist, lawyer.

SPEAKER_05 14:44

It was you you have to become something that you will not a work for someone. So you can have your own business, but you can't be a shop owner. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it was just the idea of having something that is credible to your name that no one can take away from you. And that was the messaging. My grandfather used to say people will take the milk out of your tea. But they can't take away your degrees. They can't take away what you learn. Aaron Ross Powell So your grandparents were quite supportive of your dad going in to Yeah, no, I think my grandfather was really like pushy about it in terms of Was he first generation, your granddad? No.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

I would I think it's second generation granddad. But it's always that's a common denominator, I think, with like immigrant families, whether it's first or second. You want always want what's better for your for your kids.

SPEAKER_05 15:37

And it and it doesn't stop there. It was exactly the same with my dad and the three of us. It wasn't like, okay, I've I've achieved this, um, I'm a specialist. We did not grow up in what people would think was a specialist household. Right? It was I will give you your education and that's it. Like you get an allowance. If your money's gone, your money's gone. If you have not budgeted for this, it's game over. It was not, I want a pair of Nikes, please can I have it? No, save your money and then go buy your Nikes. You know, it was that was the level that we grew up with. I'll give you your health, I'll give you your food, I'll give you your education.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:18

And as soon as you get that degree, my babes.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

You're on your own.

SPEAKER_05 16:23

Now it's yours. Right? Now I've given you everything that I can give it, give you. You have to take it and do what you need to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Yeah. You said the three of us, so you've got siblings?

SPEAKER_05 16:34

I've got an older sister and a younger brother.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Okay. They're in the medical fraternity?

SPEAKER_05 16:38

No. So they my my sister studied music and then she went into journalism. So she's a journalist and a writer. My brother always, from the age of four, just wanted to be a jazz musician.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Oh wow, that's cool.

SPEAKER_05 16:52

Um, and this speaks to this the power of my dad or his determination in the next generation will be better. Um, because my brother got into architecture and he would he was told, you can be a jazz musician. You can do it. I know you have the talent and the skill to do it. To this extent where, as a little 12-year-old kid, my dad was driving him to kiggs, like in Sophia Town, and not Safia Town, but you know, in in town. Um so he was opening those those avenues for him to engage with like top jazz musicians. Like we would come to Cape Town for the jazz festival, and I was 19, and my brother was probably 15 at the time, and my dad would just leave us, and we would be at an after party until five o'clock in the morning with international jazz musicians, right? So that he can expose himself to that. But he got into Vostur and my dad was like, Okay, now get your degree all the way to masters, right? So master's architecture, and then you can go do what you need to do. And and that's what happened, right? So you got that and now he's a architect, jazz musician who found a way to marry those thinking thick to be.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

But that was very supportive of your dad, instead of just saying, No, you've got to be A, B, and C. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:08

He was like, You can do it. You can do it, but this is what you these are the things that you will do in order to do that.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yeah. Yeah. So it was just you that kind of took after the.

SPEAKER_05 18:23

I caved. Because he did he did he did definitely tell all of them. You know, up until I think maybe five years before he passed, he was still telling us, go to med school, I'll pay. Go become a doctor, I'll pay.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:35

Right? Yeah, we all had our degrees, we all had our thing. He was like, I'll be I'll pay. Go.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Yeah. Sorry to hear that that he he passed recently.

SPEAKER_05 18:43

He passed in twenty twenty.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Okay. And was was that difficult? I mean, your dad there's a lot of people that I've been speaking to that actually know your dad um here at this congress as well. And um I think like he's he was quite synonymous with the respect uh from a clinician, but also from an academic that you know he got in the industry.

SPEAKER_05 19:07

So he was a fighter. Yeah. Right? He was also all in for justice. Right? He was like, I will be a specialist, I will teach, I will fight for someone to get into a developmental post that deserves it, that came from a background that doesn't, you know, fit the mold, or I'll sit on the board of HBCSA and I'll do the right thing. He was a fighter, you know, and he was always up for he was up for a challenge. Yeah. You know, he was up, he was like he was a character of note. Yes, right. And he was a very charming person. And I think that that's it's actually a really beautiful thing because you go through life and you think you're doing things and we come with nothing and we leave with nothing, right? But what gets left behind? No one ever asks that question. Right? Because when we die, it's less about us and more about what's left. And to come to a congress like this, where I usually I'm very introverted, so I don't often engage a lot. Um, and to have people come up to me and say, You're dad, or this happened, or that story, or to know that there was this interaction and engagement that meant something to them, that is it's a beautiful thing to see how life lives beyond you, depending on how you live your life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Right? Exactly. That's beautiful. Because the question I had in there that um it wasn't a question, but was probably quite difficult. Because I mean, we we've got parents that are far from what it is that we do, but your dad's legacy is kind of living through you and what you are doing right now in dentistry.

SPEAKER_05 20:47

That was a it was a conflicting point for a long time, right? Because you grow up and when you're younger, you don't want to stand under the shadow or the shade. You have it was it was a struggle to say everyone looks at me and thinks that this is an easy road. So almost inside of me there was this rebellion to say I have to somehow find a way in this industry, in this space, to make my own road, right? To to go in my own way. And because he was such a strong character to the outside world, that is multiplied a million times to what it looks like in the inside world. There were fights. There were so going to dental school was a fight. What comes after dental school was a fight because you will do this. Why aren't you doing this? This is an opportunity for you, go do this. And I was not always strong enough to fight the fight. I because I was hyper vigilant and I was wanting to keep the peace, and I was like, I I don't I don't I don't I don't have the words or the energy to. To fight this fight, so I'm gonna go with the flow. But the thing is that you go with the flow until you reach a point where you have to say thank you and you have to say I'm I'm okay. And the thing that clicked for me, I think it was already when I was done with my masters. Uh my brother bought me a book, Siddhartha by Herman Hayes. I'm not sure if you guys have read it. It's a beautiful book. It's it's like a thin little sliver of a book, but it was a turning point for me in a sense that it gave me the courage of accountability because I realized that I wasn't scared of the fight. I was scared that after the fight, I did what I wanted and I failed, and I would not be able to hold myself accountable to that. And so I read the book and I finished my thesis and my I dedicated it to him. You'll find it in the archives at UP probably. What is it called? It's uh just it's just my it's just my dissertation. Yeah. My dissertation was just on growth. Okay. You know, changes of growth in pre-adults and post-adults and the clusal forces, dental things. Okay. We'll give it a skip. It's very theoretical, you know. But in it was we have walked the path and I thank you for everything, but this is the point where I I move on.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:24

And this is the last thing I'm doing for you because in my head it was going to dental school for you, working in the department for you, doing the masters in author for you. I mean, in in hindsight being 2020, those were things were definitely for me.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:43

And I wouldn't be where I am today without having done those things. Um, but it was like an ode to say thank you, and I can now try, and I accept that I will fail, and I trust that with failure comes growth and figuring out a different way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Yeah. Well you did you did he ever teach you? Were you ever his student?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Uh well, he was I think he was the head of orthodontics department at the at one stage. So, you know, in undergrad you just dabble in in auto. I mean, I was just talking to my wife uh now on the way down because she's recently specialized, right? Yeah. And she said uh it was sad when he when he passed that you know she wouldn't have the opportunity to work under him and things like that. So but I'm sure you you hear all these stories from many people at these places. It's actually quite a cool legacy to leave b behind, you know. You can have all the money in the world, but if nobody says anything nice about you when you're gone, what's the point?

SPEAKER_05 24:37

Exactly, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:38

Like not even says anything nice, like how many lives have you impacted?

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 24:44

Even if it's in the smallest, smallest way. How have you done that? And the thing is, you don't have to be a professor to do it. You just have to be a human in the world. I had like my hair washed the other day and I was having a really awful day and I was bleak and I'd been crying and like it just looked like an absolute mess. And the lady who was washing my hair, obviously she hadn't seen my face, she was washing my hair from the back. And she told me, you know, I'm I'm so hungry, I haven't eaten last night, and I used my last money to take my son to the hospital because he broke his arm again. And when we sat in front of the mirror, she said, You don't look okay. Like, what's going on? And I spoke to her a little bit, and after that she got up and she had so much compassion and empathy and held so much space for me that I was actually blown away. I was like, you that literally don't know where your next meal is coming from, and have a sick son can hold space for me like this. So anyone can do it at any point. We just have to open ourselves up to it, I guess.

unknown 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

How how was dental school? Was it like my experience where I just couldn't wait to get out? I I I was the kid at the back of the class, didn't know what was going on, uh, getting study notes from others, just m trying to pass because my dad was paying for it and the least I could do is not fail.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Uh Did you have a similar experience or were you one of those? Um sorry, before you answer that question, I'm just gonna Okay, so we had to do a little bit of rearranging of furniture. So um where were we? I think I was asking you about dental school and whether you had a similar experience to me. Right. Were were you just in to get out, or did you start thriving and realize, okay. And you studied in Pretoria, right?

SPEAKER_05 26:32

Yes, I was at Modensa.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 26:34

Yeah. So undergrad at Modenza.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

All right, so you you weren't uh dad wasn't around there, you know, when he actually was.

SPEAKER_05 26:40

Oh. So he was there for maybe my first year and then he did the switch to tax.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

You couldn't take it, you know. He was like, I need to get away from this woman.

SPEAKER_05 26:52

No, I think he went from just uh I think he got the HOD position and so he switched to the HOD position. Um but it was so strange because in that first year you were like with the med students and very little in the actual dental school, so we would just see each other in passing, um, like he would be walking in the corridor or out of a lecture room and I was going in and that sort of line. And it was so strange because people would see him and they wouldn't make the connection because my dad was quite dark-skinned and I'm obviously not. And then people they would be like, That's your dad. Yeah, I wouldn't make it possible. And I'm like, Yeah, that's dad. So it was kind of nice that people didn't know because there wasn't that thing hanging over my head. But that went away very quickly, um, in terms of them knowing who he is and who I am. And in some aspects it did make my life a little bit difficult. Like I got appeal from some lecturers and that sort of thing. But I mean it comes with the territory.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Yeah. And dental school, any uh horror stories?

SPEAKER_05 27:56

Any dental school was an absolute nightmare.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 27:59

Because first of all, I wasn't really clear on what I was signing up for in terms of getting there. Um, because I I didn't know what I wanted to do at all after school. And naturally it was like go do this because for some reason dentists want their kids to be dentists and doctors want their kids to be doctors, and in an Indian household, like I said, it's doctor, lawyer, dentist, right? That's those are your options. Um and so I quit every year that I was in dental school. Usually around February, I was like, I cannot do this. I absolutely hate it. Um, first year was hard because of that, and my mom and my sister would talk me down because the idea of quitting would mean facing him and being a quitter and giving up all the opportunities, and how dare you? Um so they would talk me off the ledge. And I got to my third year where I was finally brave enough, and in mid-third year, I was like, I am done with this. And I left. I left school, and my grandfather backed me, and he was like, She's not happy, just let her go become a teacher or something, because that was the next thing, right? Also, a lineage of teachers, cousins, aunts, everyone's a teacher. Um, and so I quit. And at that stage, a friend of mine, his dad had like a private airline company, and they gave me a job. And a pilot tour. Um, no, not a pilot as a receptionist.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

The airline, did it?

SPEAKER_05 29:31

Um it was like the chartered, a local chartered company. So it was like private airline.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_05 29:36

And he was just like really kind a high school friend. Like we weren't friends in high school, but post-high school we were friends. And so then I got that job and I was at home for probably like a month. And on the day that I woke up and I got dressed and it was the first day of work, I sat in my car for like 20 minutes and I phoned the uncle and I was like, um, I'm gonna go back to school. Because my thinking was if I don't finish, it is forever gonna hang over my head. So let me just finish it and get it done, and then I can do whatever I want. Because at that stage, I mean, I didn't want to be a receptionist at an airline company, but I still didn't know what I wanted, right? Um and so when I went back, I went back on my own terms, in terms of I have now chosen to do this. No one is making me do it. And I pushed through. So dental school for me was I had no life. I studied like an absolute maniac just to get it done. Because un unfortunately, I'm not naturally smart. It takes a lot of work to do things. And I put my head down, I put my head in the books, and I got through it. And there were days where I did enjoy some things, but for the most part, I absolutely hated it. And I was like, as soon as I'm done, I can't wait. Because then I can figure out what I actually want to do. I can take that time to find out who Mary is and what matters to her. Um and so then I graduated and ComServe is a nice year, guys. Right?

SPEAKER_01 31:13

It's like Especially for dentists.

SPEAKER_05 31:15

It's it's a it's a lacquer year. Suddenly you didn't bank account. I did it in north of Pretoria.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Okay, so close close to it.

SPEAKER_05 31:21

I must stay at home. Um it was like a 90-minute drive daily, but I was like, it's fine. I was in like a 90. 90. Yeah. It's quite far. It's quite far.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 31:31

Spent a lot of time in the car thinking things.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Um I'm just surprised the dad didn't kick you out of the home when you quit the first time. I mean, was it why?

SPEAKER_05 31:40

Oh no, it was it was a fight, but then he was like, okay, well, this is this is but I had the backing. My granddad wasn't there.

SPEAKER_04 31:47

That would have been a lose-lose situation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:51

But he was stepped in and he was like, No, you just let it you have it. And he would do things like pull out my dad's school report cards and be like, this is what you used to get, so why do you want to shout these kids? Like he would hold my dad accountable and be like, you can't be mad at a B because you came home with a D. That level of like backing, right? Um Yeah, so COMService was a great year. And then I was like, okay, so I'll do my com service and then I will, you know, figure out what's next. And after comm service, the only subject I really enjoyed in dental school was ethics. Like I thoroughly enjoyed it. I was like, I could do this.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

That's really interesting. Because I I never came across ethics even I on the foreign graduate. But I to write a big ethical exam when I first came in.

SPEAKER_05 32:42

Yes, because ethics is a big part of the HBC.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

And they had a whole book and I was like, but isn't it obvious? Shouldn't it really be obvious? Yeah. And I remember getting that book from you actually and uh writing that exam. And out of sixty-eight students, foreign students that wrote this first part of the ethics, I was like, it's pretty self-explanatory. There were only 18 that passed. They moved on to the second. And I was like, whoa, okay.

SPEAKER_05 33:07

So what about ethics did you and so for me it was the way that it was presented and taught, it was very philosophical as a as a module, right? So we explored like the trolley card scenario. We explored, we had to write an essay on ethical dilemmas and ethic ethical choices, and I found a niche in that where I think I I even remember my my article was about a adopted child who goes into an adopt whose mother can't care for the child, so she goes into the adoptive home, but in the adoptive home there's abuse. So what is more ethical to be cared for, subcared for because funds, finance, and mental capacity are not available, or to be cared for and be housed in an environment that is not conducive to actual life, right? Um, so that I think that targeted something in my brain that wasn't scientific and that wasn't clinical. And that's why I thoroughly enjoyed it, because of the psychological aspect and and the philosophical aspect of it. So after I finished Tom Service, I'm also of the nature of study to avoid life problems. It's chosen as a problem. It's chosen in the degrees, every single degree came with its own life problem that I avoided. Literally. Yeah. Right? So immediately applied for master's adverts in bioethics.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Um if we can ask what what was the life problem at that stage? What were you avoiding?

SPEAKER_05 34:42

I was avoiding asking myself what do I actually want to do.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 34:45

That's what I was avoiding.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

So that's that's good. That's uh that's not a problem, I think.

SPEAKER_05 34:50

That is you know, Yeah, and just doing things until figuring things out and the solution. Trying it on, right? Does it fit? Um and got in, went to open day, went to the first day, had a panic attack, came back home. I I can't I can't study like this again. Right. So then I was like, okay, let's just go take some time to figure it out. But life is life and the universe is the universe. So we get a curveball. I was went to do my PPS medical, right? And over that like December period, I was losing weight and I was thirsty and I had all the symptoms of diabetes. And I'd said to my med students, friends, guys, it's yeah. And I'm like, no, man, you're fine. And I do my PPS medical and my blood sugar level sitting on 22.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Whoa, okay.

SPEAKER_05 35:43

Right? And the turning point is in the story is that remember how I said I will give you my your education and the race is up to you. Now your baby has to pay for medical aid, right? For polyglandular endocrine disorder. Not diabetes, polyglandular endocrine disorder. So I have to get a job and I have to work, essentially. And so I got a job. Private practice. Drillful and bull. Did I love it? No. But I also knew that I couldn't just not do anything while doing this. And so I did a diploma in aesthetics. And then the forceful hand of the dad was still there in terms of go be an author, go be an author. This is for you. It's in your genes, it's in your DNA. Um, so I worked in the department, and that's actually, I think I was a supervisor for your wife. Um, just clinical sessions in the morning, and then as a consequence to working in the department, you must also study further. So then that's how I did the master's in author while I was working in the department. And I would do sessions at his practice in the afternoons because he needed help one day a week. Um, and I worked there until the one day he told me my skirt was too short. And then I was like, this is not for us anymore.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

That's what it took the scotch. That's what it took. It took the skirt.

SPEAKER_05 37:17

It took the scot. I was like, I my dress is my dress, babes. I don't know what to tell you. It's not gonna change. Um and it was better for our relationship because once I sort of stepped out of the practice, we could actually have constructive conversations and I could share my opinions and and it was that growth trajectory to me reaching the point of finishing my master's and saying, I am not gonna keep this university job. I am leaving this dental practice that has been really good to me, but I don't see growth there. And at the same time, it was at a point in my life where I didn't like a lot of things, but I had acquired a lot of things. So the diploma in aesthetics, the master's, the clinical experience. I took a photography course. I was like, what must I do? What do I want to do? I don't know. So I'm gonna do all the things until I know what I want to do. Um and then I got that opportunity with Sam, and he was starting this big practice, but he was currently just in a little two-room practice, also attached to his house. And I started there like two days a week, two afternoons a week, and we got on. And eventually he was like, okay, so you are you gonna join full-time? And I was like, okay, let's go. I'm all in. And so I left Pretoria and I said thank you to my dad. And I was like, I don't know what this entails, but I'm gonna go figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Was he supportive of you with that decision?

SPEAKER_05 38:40

Yeah, he was. Because he could also tell that it was time for me to step out, to try, to make it make sense.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

For the audience, I mean maybe just uh Sam, you you mentioned Sam G.

SPEAKER_05 38:52

Sorry, Dr. Tander, Sam Tander, so of the Think Group. Think Clinic Group, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Okay. And f I mean look, we don't have too much of time. So fast forward to today, you're still on this journey of self-discovery. You recently, you know, moved to Cape Town. You've joined another um practice that's synonymous with prestige in Cape Town. How's that journey been?

SPEAKER_05 39:19

Do you know what I was at the Thane Clinic for 10 years. And I wasn't just a dentist for 10 years. I grew myself in, I went to business school. I was involved in the strategy and the building and the putting together of the systems and making it work. And I was also involved in setting up the Santin practice, and I sort of got to tap into another side of me that I actually really enjoy because my brain works like that. It works with seeing absolute chaos and then saying, okay, so this is how we're gonna organize it to make sense.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

You're very systems driven.

SPEAKER_05 39:59

Very systems driven. Like I can I can take chaos and organize it for you and make it make sense to you and pass it on, right? And I just reached the point there where I was like, the l that my life in in my personal life and in my practical life, it's not challenging enough. I don't feel pushed outside of my comfort zone enough. I don't feel balanced, if I can put it that way. And I knew I needed to make a change and it was it was a past two year coming. And that also it came with it came with a big life change because at the end of my dad died in 2020. I didn't deal with the grief of it. I did what I do, which is solve all the problems around me and help all the people around me and just push through it. Um, and then 2022, Sam had an accident where he was out of commission, and I had already lost one powerful male figure in my life, and I came very close to losing another one, right? Because we were so we were so close in work and in support. Like I really saw him as a brother-father figure, and I watched that entire thing happen and the trauma around it, and I stepped up after that and I was like, I have to make this clinic work in his absence. I have to do whatever it takes to make sure that he can come back to something, right? And maybe I'm giving myself more credit than than what's due, but that's how it felt to me. And those walls came crashing down for me at the end of 2022, 2023. Because when you are controlling all the things around you, and you are a diabetic who has to think about everything, every single thing is a calculation, guys. It's a calculation throughout the day. How much have I put in? How much am I putting out? Have I accounted for this? Have I accounted for that? I burned out. End of 22, 23, I was in the hospital in a coma for two weeks.

SPEAKER_03 42:14

Oh, I did not know that.

SPEAKER_05 42:16

Two weeks. My brother found me one Monday morning, my sugar level was sitting on 50. And I was at Mallpark for two weeks. And I came out of there and I checked myself in to an institution for some psychology and therapy, and someone forced me to look at my life and say, You have achieved a lot. Why? Why is there an urge to be the best, to be perfect, to do no wrong? And I faced all those things. And it's been two years of that now, where it's a constantly daily acknowledgement of saying, but how do I feel and why do I feel like this? Right? And being able to share it with people around me because I didn't do that before. Because before it was I must be there for them. And so in these past two years, it's constant be constantly been a question of what's happiness? Right? What does that look like in my life? And because my days had become so routine and so cycled and so and so predictable, I knew I had to change something. And the best thing you can do for yourself is always put yourself in a pool of people and in an environment where everyone is a little bit better than you. And SVL it's a lot better. Right? The clinical work is insane. Like these are people I've looked up to.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

So SVL, are you talking about Jean? Jean and Cornet, yes. It's Cornea here this weekend, by the way.

SPEAKER_05 43:55

She's not here this weekend, yeah. She's pretty So it was if yeah, it was Jeanne and Cornet. Because they've always mentioned my name on tables that I was not on. In rooms that I'd never be in. Like every speaking engagement that came up came from a phone call randomly, and I'd be like, but who told you about me? Najon or Corneille? And I'm like, I know I want to be better than what I am, and I want to learn and I want to grow. So let me put myself in a way that I have that opportunity to learn and grow. And I also might have the opportunity to take all the things I know and contribute and add value. And honestly, just a change of environment, just a change of pace.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

Yeah. There's this one, sorry, Vash, before you take over and conclude. Um I wish we could do a whole segment on burnout and especially practitioners that are working in private practice because it's real.

SPEAKER_04 44:52

It's real.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

It's i it comes and it gets translated into, you know, such subliminal aspects of our lives that we don't even see it when it's happening. And or maybe we will do a whole nother segment on just burnout. But it's great that you've um you know you've held yourself accountable and you've done what you need to do. And I also saw you wear a glucose meter, which I see my parents actually wearing now. My dad checks it on his phone after every time he eats. But it's pretty cool. I want it biohacked like that. But I just want to say like well done to you for taking that step. First of all, acknowledging what you needed to do and and just getting it done.

SPEAKER_05 45:32

Yeah. And there is high-functioning burnout, you'll be surprised that you just do the things. You're going to gym, you're eating the right food, you're going to work, you're being productive, and we label productivity as success.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:44

It's a label.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

I mean, what I wanted to ask you is because you mentioned this twice in the conversation so far, is the concept of putting yourself out of your comfort zone.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

It seems like something that you want to do quite often.

SPEAKER_05 45:57

I always say yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:59

Um and then I figure it out. Okay. Most of the time.

SPEAKER_03 46:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:04

Or I say yes and I reach a point where I'm like, thank you, this is not for me.

SPEAKER_02 46:10

All right.

SPEAKER_05 46:10

So if you tell me let's go do high rocks, for example, I'll say yes. But I know myself enough to know that the first burpee we do, I'm gonna sit aside and I'm gonna be fine. This is not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

So you get a kick out of challenging yourself.

SPEAKER_05 46:27

I get a kick out of challenging myself. I get a kick out of knowing, uh not knowing if I can do it, but trusting that I will come hell or high water, find a way.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

And no regrets um signing back up into dental school all those years ago, or do you ever think back about you could have been like a like a pilot by the same thing?

SPEAKER_05 46:50

I could have been a pilot. I could have owned an airline company. No, because you know what I did? I all the things I collected along the al along the years. Somehow through universal karma, energy, God, the higher power, whatever you want to call it, there was a moment where I sat down, it was at DSD in Madrid, and within the first five minutes of the DSD lecture, Christian Kochman was speaking, all the pieces of my life, the business side, the photography side, the creative side, the human emotion side, the clinical dentistry side, it fell into place. It fell into place and it said, if you do this in this way, you get to do, you get to use all the talent and skill and learning that you have done in a way that produces something that has an impact on somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

That is so cool to hear. Um You know, when you were speaking about how you you like to check things out and you want to test this and test it. What I was thinking as somebody looking from the outside in is quite blessed and privileged to have well, it's a privilege to be able to do that because most people don't have the opportunity to say, I want to have a a dabble in this, or I never have a dabble in that.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

1000%.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

You know what I mean? That is all privilege. It's so cool, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 48:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

And and y you know, one day I hope to be able to give my daughter that those kind of opportunities. I don't want to prescribe anything, they must just test it out and figure it out. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_05 48:23

And as much as my dad was like, go to dental school, what he also did was allowed us to do the things that he didn't do. So it was tennis lessons, it was swimming lessons, it was piano lessons. The only difference was with him being around and when we were growing up, you couldn't do it halfway and decide it's not for you. So if I go to you and I'm like, I want to learn to play the piano, grade eight, I do not play. I stopped enjoying it there by grade three. But I had to finish all the way to grade eight. And that builds a different kind of resilience and it has its positives because sometimes when you finish something like dental school and it still doesn't make sense, you've still acquired skills, knowledge, and a toolbox that you could potentially use in another area.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:14

Right?

SPEAKER_00 49:15

So cool to reflect and think, I'm lucky I'd had these opportunities. You know, most a lot of people would kill for that. So it's really cool. And and I can see Yak is getting a bit anxious because he knows that we've got a time limit. I I feel like we just started flowing now. I wish we could carry on. But I've got to ask you the question we always ask guests. But now Yak is going to start.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

I I wanted him to finish off because he's good at that. But uh we yeah, as he says, we asked this question to our guests. But I want to ask you, I want to make it more specific to you. Okay. The question we normally ask is like if you had a child or someone out there is looking up at you and watching this episode, um, and they're considering dentistry, or they're considering a path, any path in in medicine, this is called, give it more of a broader overview. But we've got we come from an uh uh culturally sort of a predisposition where our parents are doctors or dentists or lawyers or whatever, and we expect the kid to also go down that same path. And we haven't broken that cycle yet. It's still a predominant like overbearing facet in our community. And you coming from that same household, what would you tell a person who's watching this episode, whose parent is a doctor or a dentist, and they want to get into or they are they being not forced, I wouldn't say forced, but that is the expectation of them getting into the what would you tell them if you had to summarize what you had gone through.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Well, let me just tell you how we usually ask the question and then you decide which one you want to answer. He's making it higher grade. I I I make it quite simple. If somebody comes to you and and says, Doc, you're inspiring. I'm thinking of becoming a dentist because I'm inspired by you. Do you have any advice for me? Um, I want to do dentistry, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_05 51:09

I would offer them the opportunity to come in and see what a day looks like. And then I would suggest that they go spend a day with someone else in the same field and see what that looks like so they can draw a comparison. And then I would tell them to sit with themselves and think about if this wasn't a choice, what would they choose and find out more about that and then make a decision.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

Yeah. So informed consent almost is a good idea.

SPEAKER_05 51:43

Yeah, I think information is power.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:46

Right? Don't choose what you're gonna do for the rest of your life based on the appearance of how something looks. We live in an age where anything can look so great on the internet. It can it can look like the most magical tropical resort ever, and then you go there and it is like a bed on the sand, right? So empower yourself with the information and get in there, get hands on, and then make a decision.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Yeah. Of course.

SPEAKER_05 52:18

Also, which you know what? Sorry, I know you want to end. All decisions are not final.

SPEAKER_02 52:24

Exactly. Right?

SPEAKER_05 52:25

All it doesn't end there. You can dis I can decide that you know what, I want to be in Cape Town and this is what I want to be doing, and then tomorrow I can decide that actually I really just want to be married with a child. Right? So all decisions are not final, and we take all the parts of us with us wherever we go. Leaving Joburg is not leaving the Mary that was there behind because I'm on a new journey in a new chapter. That babe is with me, right? And if you stop yourself from making decisions in life because you're scared of failing, and you scared of you the fact that you decided, you achieve nothing. You are in limbo in a gray area, and how are you gonna move forward?

SPEAKER_01 53:15

Yeah, Dr. D, thank you so much. I think you hit the nail on the head there by just calling it a journey because it's not the destination, it's the journey. And we're excited to see where your journey is in Cape Town, and we're gonna follow you quite closely. And we look forward to everything that's to come from you.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

Yesh, anything else? Thank you. That was so cool. No no decision is final. Yeah. I mean, you could like me, I became a dentist and decided to change completely, right?

SPEAKER_03 53:44

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

And I'm loving what I do. It gives me the privilege of being able to speak to people like you and all sorts of things. So yeah. Maybe in ten years' time we'll speak to you and we'll find you became a professor. In bioethics or something. You never know what you're doing. She's gonna run away in five years or something. But it can happen. They know this. Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it.

SPEAKER_05 54:07

Thank you guys for this opportunity. I'm always down for some beautiful conversation, and it's been really special.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

Agreed. Thanks.

SPEAKER_05 54:14

Thank you.