SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome back everyone. Today we've got a unique doctor as a guest on our show. Ex-CEO Discovery Health, ex Deputy CEO, Discovery Bank, XC COO Netcare Group, X pilot, X-Fireman, current CEO of DNI. Dr. Ryan Noach, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Thanks for having me. Yeah. So very kind of you. Look, I'm going to be honest. I feel intimidated by your introduction.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Thank you so much. Well, I'm glad I managed to intimidate Ryan. For the viewers, the viewers will get that joke. Just look at the size difference. Ryan, I've got to be honest. I'm super proud, and yak, I'm super proud of myself, to be honest with you. No, I didn't know that we managed to bag uh Dr. Ryan Noche on the show. You know, we are a fledgling. We're not even.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

It wasn't hard, right? You send me one note.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

No, no, I no. My first question, it's a selfish question, Ryan. It has nothing to do with you. It's more for my own curiosity, to be honest. But I want to sort of pitch it in a way that hopefully it'll be beneficial for the viewers and give us some perspective into personality, right? Now I know a lot of my friends and colleagues are going to be watching this and thinking, how on earth did this all manage to get Ryan Noch on his show, right? And I want to tell that story. Um and I'll explain why I need to tell that story and what my question is, it'll make sense then, right? So I'm going to tell the story, but I'm going to be deliberately vague to respect your privacy and mine also. So Yak knows this. So one day I was going to drop someone off at a place. And as I'm walking back to my car, I walk past Ryan. And I think to myself, I know this guy from somewhere. Um, you know, I'm sure he's come and spoken to us maybe at Norton Rose once about insurance or something. Um but I couldn't put my finger on it, right? And this is in the morning. So I get home, log into my desk on my computer, and I'm still thinking, and then I don't know, it just it snaps, and I'm like, oh my word, this is Ryan Noach. And then I'm like, hold on, he's a doctor. So I go onto my WhatsApp group with uh that I've got Yak on and another cousin who's a support for this podcast. And I say to them, guys, you won't guess who I just emotional, basically emotional. I say, you won't guess who I walk past, and wouldn't it be brilliant if we can get him on the show? You know, why did I become a doctor? Um and this is like nine in the morning, so they're busy working, they don't respond. And I say, guys, I think I'm going to slide into the guys' DMs. Um, what do you guys think? Uh would that be a bit too forward? And while I'm waiting them for that for them to respond, they don't respond. But coincidentally, and I want to just pull out this post. Coincidentally, on my LinkedIn a couple of days before, there was a post by a colleague of mine. Uh it's not it's not picking up on my phone, but there's a post on LinkedIn where one of my periodontist colleagues, Dr. Tyson Verden, he's in Switzerland, he's doing a uh a follow um fellowship there. He'd said something to the effect that you know what, don't hesitate to slide into people's DMs. The worst thing that can happen is they can say no. Right. So I figured I'm not gonna wait for Yak to come back. I said, Let me go and slide into his DMs. And and the worst thing you can do is say no, right? So I go and I type in Ryan Noche on LinkedIn, I try to send you a message, and LinkedIn tells me, sorry, if you're not a connection, you can't send messages.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah, but premium.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Yes, but if you're a LinkedIn premium, you can. So I'm like, okay, let me just pay the first time ever, let me pay this thing. First seven days are free. Yeah, no, but uh okay, okay. Well, I didn't do it to just connect because I got charged again. So I paid the 270 bucks and I sent you a message. And I I said to Yakanim, sorry guys, I've already done it. Whatever, he's not gonna respond yet. Yeah, yeah. I want to submit a claim, right? To any company. But then Ryan replied like I think within an hour and said, Yeah, I should be happy to consider it. Just send me a note. And then I sent you an email later on, and and now you're here. All of that rambling, Ryan, is to say, and this is the part where it's a selfish question for me to why'd you say yes?

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Yeah, I uh I I mean a few reasons. The first mistake you made, by the way, brother, yeah, is that you should have stopped me at nine o'clock in the morning with the school.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

No, no, you were getting into your car and leaving. Oh, you should have knocked on the window.

SPEAKER_04 4:13

He also didn't know who you were at that stage.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Um You know, I I've I've always had a view in life that uh and and you know, your story is a bit embarrassing to me that you say you express my importance of being approached. I I don't feel that way about myself at all. Um and I and I feel a bit coy and embarrassed when you describe it that way. Um and I I think everybody should have an opportunity and a chance. And you know, my approach to my own life and to everybody who I interact with is, you know, to try and treat everybody with the same respect I want to be treated with. So I think it is a fairness and respect issue, and I will try three times to say yes before I say no. Uh, I suppose you get people in life, and I've met those people who say no three times, and you have to be tenacious to get the yes. But I've I've got completely the opposite view. Uh, and one never knows what comes out of those engagements. Um, and I'm lucky enough to spend time with you two guys and hear about an Everest summit and really fascinating stuff. So actually, it's the other way around, right? This is opportune for me.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Yeah, and it's funny you say that when you were mentioning that it's embarrassing, I thought you were gonna say the story is embarrassing for me to tell it. Because I'll be honest with you, I felt like, should I tell the story?

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Because No, no, no. No, don't misunderstand me. It's embarrassing to me.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

I got it. I got it after.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

I'm I'm I'm lucky, uh I'm lucky to have the opportunity. And uh, you know, ever since I've been on LinkedIn, it's an interesting platform. I I dislike social media, I don't participate in social media. Okay. The team at Discovery, when I was employed there, convinced me to create a LinkedIn presence. And it's such an interesting platform. You meet amazing people, and because it's business oriented, generally the people that reach out have some business intent that's uh uh aside from a social intent. And uh and it's it's really uh this is a good connection.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Thanks so much. Yeah. So thanks to Tyson Baden, who's probably watching from Sutzil, and I know he watches the show, uh, for ask. I think that was uh what he was trying to convey. The worst thing you could have done was ignored or said no. So I appreciate you. Now, also we have limited time, and I had an agreement with myself not to ramble as I usually do on the show. But then the first question is I ramble. But with that in mind, I avoid asking this question usually because my plan on this show is to have a long conversation and not ask the question but still get the answer as to why did I become a doctor. But because we've got limited time with you, I'm gonna go straight ahead and and make an exception and say, Ryan, why did you become a doctor?

SPEAKER_00 6:51

That's the only question I thought about before the meeting, right? Yeah. Um I think it's a calling, uh, to be honest. Um, and what I've learned about myself now that I'm 51 years old is uh, you know, one of the things that I've I was born with is a natural empathy. And I I actually think that calling and a genetic ability to have empathy probably took me down the road of medicine. There's life occurrences that played a part, um, and those are relevant, and I'd like to tell you about those. But I think it's inside me. Um, and when I wake up in the morning, my sense of value, of impact, of my role on the planet is closely linked to what I've done to help people around me. Um different people have different drivers. Uh, some people are driven by their ability to amass success and wealth, some are driven by family. Um I'm my number one is my impact on others and how I've helped others. Um, family is a close second for me in that order of kind of hierarchy of of importance. Um, and I think that's what's what's drawn me here. There are life occurrences, and if you don't mind me rambling, maybe I should yeah. You're supposed to be doing this. The central question. Now I I've realized you're gonna talk a lot, so I'll listen.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

It's a first guest that's had a big thank you, thank you. I'm an immediate on air platform, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

So I uh my dad was a volunteer firefighter, an ambulance medic. And uh in fact he was on the ambulance side, not on the fire side, and that always inspired me, and I loved that work, and I got involved at a very young age, and it gave me a real flair and understanding of emergency medicine, which I just loved. Um, and the other part of it was that I I really enjoyed playing rugby and got a bad injury when I was in standard eight those days. I think it's grade 10 now. Um, and uh to stick with the rugby team, I I ended up becoming the team's first aider. But the combination of the uh volunteering in the emergency services, um the first aid exposure, and I think a genetic predisposition linked to a sense of value, I think that's what got me there.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

So your dad was an EMS.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Um my dad is a dentist.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Okay, I didn't notice that.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

My dad was a dentist in private practice for nearly 50 years, retired from dentistry, but very much still working. He's a software developer now. And um he he he loved dentistry, he was a very committed dentist, and his patient loved him. And to this day, uh, this morning in the gym, somebody said to me, Your dad was my dentist, he was the best dentist ever, so I have that regularly. Um, and uh uh you know, so he was involved in in clinical care and in the medical field, and he volunteered as an uh and as an ambulance medic.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Wow, so maybe you can put in a word, maybe we can get another guest on the show, uh dentist.

SPEAKER_04 10:03

It'd be very interesting. And it seems like you kind of uh like steered towards his part, ex medic becoming moving into IT. Because he summarized exact what he did.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Yeah, yeah, in some way. Although I think my dad, you'd have to ask him, I don't think he plotted his journey to IT. He he my dad is very talented and taught himself to code, coded a practice management system for his own practice. Um it did really well, ended up supplying it to colleagues, then started selling it and uh then was bought out by an IT firm. He's still a shareholder, uh, good commercial, strong commercial guys run the business, but he still codes a lot of their code. It's called Solumed, and a large portion of the dental fraternity uses it. So you maybe.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

You might have heard of the story, Ryan, but Mark Zuckerberg, I don't know if you know, but he did that for his dad. His dad was a dentist. I didn't know. And he coded some software for his dad. That was one of the first work he did. I'm pretty sure he was on one of these recent podcasts where he mentions that. So that's cool. All right. So there's this corning, but I mean, what was it growing up? Are you you know, typical head boy material, first team rugby, all that kind of stuff? One of my colleagues who watches the show, she says to me, Yesh, we're tired of getting seeing the Rags to Riches story on your show because that's such a common South African story. Get somebody who's privileged for a change. So are you one of those? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

I'm privileged, deeply privileged. And uh there's a that's a double-edged sword, actually, in South Africa. But I grew up in a white family in Johannesburg in a time when white privilege allowed you to have advantages that many other South Africans didn't have. I was born in 1974, so the first 20 years of my life were in the old South Africa. Um, and and that definitely gave me advantages uh that others didn't have. I went to a Jewish day school um and got a brilliant secular education. Uh, I it wasn't my happiest period of my life. I didn't feel my value system matched with the environment and the people that I was with. Um, and when I went to university, I found people that I uh identified better with in a much more diverse crowd. Uh that took me down a strange road, um, a road of some resentment actually towards my parents um for sending me to this very closed environment when I think I would have flourished better in a more diverse environment. Um but I've come to terms with that and I know that they were doing what they thought was best for me, absolutely. Um and uh I did well at school. I uh you know I was a leader and an achiever and academically strong, sporting strong. Uh it's a long time ago. I I struggle to remember it now. Um I think my most my biggest success in life is is is beautiful kids and a beautiful wife and just a great family environment. And I I think that by far trumps all.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

And so when you were in Madrick considering careers, was medicine just your first choice?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Yeah, it was my only choice. Um I you know they forced you to make other choices. Um, but for me it was the only choice. I would have done anything to get in. I always aspired to that and was fortunate to be accepted to VITS and and had a very good uh, you know, undergraduate medical education. I think VITS doctors from that era, probably still today, have just done brilliantly all over the world, and my colleagues are all over the world in leadership positions in healthcare.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

Okay. You you you touched on some life experiences that you know led you or steered you towards medicine.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

I mean, do you want to expand on them more or well it was the injury that I sustained playing rugby, it was a bad injury, it was a compartment syndrome for the clinical people on your on your broadcast. Um, and it was unusual because the compartment syndrome was in my thigh. Um, and typically, you know, they happen in the calf or the forearm. Um so uh it was a serious injury and I nearly lost my leg. Um I missed a large part of my schooling in Standard 8 in grade 10, um, and it was an extended recovery from that and took me out of rugby. Um I I had to have serial skin grafts to close the lesion. I've got a big hernia in that leg, and you know, the the normal injury story. I was lucky, I've recovered fully. Um, but uh I I suppose that gave me a real interest in medicine over and above all the other environmental factors that are uh associated.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

Trevor Burrus And any interesting stories from med school that you can think of, or is it just a breeze and it's a flash? It's six years though, so it's quite long, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:46

It's hardly a breeze. I mean it's a it's a tough course. Yeah. But um I had just I made just unbelievable friends and had the best clinical partners in at medical school. Um you generally work with a partner and the two of us teamed up with another two guys. And so there were four of us together a Lebanese guy and uh and myself and and two other chaps, and we we had just a fantastic experience uh as undergrads. We used to uh climb over the fence behind medical school into the Johannesburg College of Education to go and light the pool with the nurses. Uh we had some great holidays together. We uh we we took an old car from from one of my colleagues' parents and we drove all the way up the coastline and uh you know stopped at crazy places and just had a great experience as as medical students. Uh it was really fun. Uh I worked through through through medical school. Um I earned a separate income. And um I suppose uh that made it a very full and busy period. And my volunteer activities in emergency services picked up pace, and uh I was very involved in emergency services. So I was saying to my kids who are on university holidays now, um I I didn't really ever have a university holiday. I was busy. Um my life was full. Um I like it that way. I like white waking up with a full agenda. I often lament to my wife, I wish we had more free time, but then we go about filling it as quickly as we can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Saying yes to podcasts at these.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Saying yes to everything, yeah. Um, you know, with respect. Um, you know, trying trying to to maximize, just like you guys, uh who have similar personalities.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

Yeah, yeah. You said um the the work that you did in university, like after hours, was that the volunteership?

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Uh in a mixture, yes. Uh the volunteering was was uh important and took up a lot of time. Um and uh we formalized that. We set up a unit of doctors uh who supported Johannesburg Emergency Services. Um, we got sponsored. Uh we had full-time response vehicles, and there were five of us on call uh to support Joe Burg Emergency Services, and we would go out and do those calls. I built the unit when I was a medical student and crewed it when I was postgrad. Um and uh, you know, with with colleagues, most of whom were older than me actually, ahead of me at medical school, um, and uh did a range of things, did a lot of uh uh rescue and firefighting training um and finished my time with Joe Burg Emergency Services as a divisional officer in the emergency services. Um and it was it was just probably if I could wind back the clock, those were my favorite times. Um amazing times. I had formal employment too. Um sadly I worked as a bouncer and uh worked at nightclubs in the night, and it was a good job as a medical student because uh you know the the work started late and I could still do a full day of medical school and get to work and earn a good living.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

Maybe this is where I recognize Ryan from he probably bounced me at one of the clubs.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Very likely. You were not born.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

With no ID. Sorry, it's a private party.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

You're a bit young.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Okay, and with the good money.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Uh it was excellent money.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

Why did you do this? I mean, you're a guy from privilege.

SPEAKER_04 18:19

That's my question.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Like, was there a need to I didn't like depending on my parents for an income. Um I was involved in in body in bodyguarding and security, and it was a good way to express, I guess, some of that. And uh I hooked up with a band of brothers, and you wouldn't believe it that the loyalty and trust and that sense of kinship that you form in that kind of a circle is about as strong as you'll find anywhere. You don't get that kind of loyalty easily. And some of those guys are still very good friends of mine, and um you know we were a team.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

This is fascinating. Wow. You mentioned postgrad.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Was that post-grad in in a medical um uh that was while I was uh uh undergrad. That was while I was a medical student.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

Yeah. But you did say something about postgrad.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Uh postgrad I was working as a as a doctor in the emergency services as a volunteer most of the time.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

Right. So now how does somebody who has a calling for medicine get out of medicine and why?

SPEAKER_00 19:20

It was not by design at all. And actually a part of me still hankers for medicine. I love patient care. Uh I love the intimacy of patient care. Um and I I look at what some of my colleagues are still doing in medicine and sometimes feel envious about it. Uh, it's just a fantastic profession and one that I would recommend to anyone who has the ability to have empathy and and wants to have impact. Uh, but you know, I I had started a uh helicopter emergency service when I was working as a medical officer in uh Joburg 163. Um I was the chief flight doctor of Flight for Life, which was Joe Burg's helicopter service, and it was run by the trauma unit under Prof Ken Bafard at the time. Um and I was working in the trauma unit as a medical officer and was the chief flight doctor. And um at that time the state withdrew the subsidy. Okay. It was probably 1998. Um, and there were changes afoot in government and the way government was run. At the time I remember the equation, it was astounding. And an average emergency helicopter response cost the state about 12,500 Rand at the time. And it cost about 11 cents a day to feed an HIV patient at the time, a kid with HIV. And that disparity was so wide that you know it was quite rational what the state did, where they said we've got to cut out these very expensive tertiary services and we've got to focus our money on primary care. So it was a rational move, but it was heartbreaking for those of us that were in the service. Um so there was a chief pilot, a chief doctor, and a chief paramedic, and the three of us stood together and we formed uh we privatized the emergency service, and it was led by um a guy who could afford to buy a helicopter at the time, who was uh uh from the construction industry, uh, an entrepreneur, and he provided the leadership to the three of us, and he acquired the machine and he gave us the roles and we we privatized that emergency service. And um, you know, ultimately that morphed into NETK911. And uh today NEC911's era medical service came largely from that service uh originally.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

Yeah, so I mean it's for me, it sounds like you're quite synonymous with not just participating in these endeavors that you embark on. You actually, you know, start forming structure and it it's it is born into these entities that we see today from your well, the these Heli services. And your uh what you did at university with the EMS.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yeah, I I think that you know having a vision and an idea is useful and important, but the hard part is actually doing it. And I'm good at doing it. Um, I'm good at executing on it. I like to be surrounded by inspiring and visionary people who can continue to create that vision. That was a great privilege at Discovery, you know, to be led by Adrian and have his vision and inspiration. And here at DNI, our founder Andrew Dunn uh, you know, does the same. Um and I I I function well in that environment where I can execute meaningfully uh on that vision and uh I do have a bias to action.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

Do you do you think you're born this way or how does it work? I mean, how do you get this way? What do you think is the root of it?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Yeah, I think I'm hard on myself and I push myself to do more and achieve more and deliver.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

And um I'm I'm pretty focused on delivering. And I think in truth, I'm unfair in some way to some of the people around me because I expect them to deliver too and maybe put them under too much pressure sometimes. I've learned to manage that very uh tightly with colleagues and develop very good working relationships. But early in my career I think I was overly demanding. Um and you know, I think with my kids I'm still learning. I think I still put them under too much pressure at times.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

Yeah. And so so I think you you skimmed a bit, but how do you get from doctor to CEO?

SPEAKER_00 23:38

I mean, Oh, so uh Yeah, I ended up working as the um medical director at Netcare 911, and then the chief executive officer of Netcare 911, and then um moved into the Netcare Group and ultimately was the chief operating officer of the Netcare Group. That was a board-level position. It was at a time that the founder and group CEO, Jackie Sheville, um, an amazing entrepreneur, immigrated, and um Richard Freeland took over as the group CEO. Uh, and there was a there was a succession process. Um and uh once Richard took over, um I looked after South Africa because Richard was looked living in the UK for a while. Uh when Richard came back, we didn't work that well together, and I I made some mistakes in my life and um and ended up leaving Netcare quite unhappily.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

Okay. I mean, did you just fit in in the boardroom? I mean, from the ER to the boardroom, I'll tell you why I asked.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

No, I still don't fit in in the boardroom.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

No, not for me, man.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

I don't I don't fit in in the boardroom today.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

What do you mean? Why don't you fit in?

SPEAKER_00 24:49

You know, it was always a a joke at the Discovery Board Um where uh, you know, I was the only guy in the room without a tie and jacket um and I would be eating while the meeting was continuing. Not rudely, um uh quite respectfully. I think respect is critical, but I'm I'm usually hungry. And um, you know, I I've just I guess I have a slightly different approach. I I my dad has always said that uh one should be WYSI-wig. What you see is what you get. And uh that really is the case with me. So I can't pretend to be fancy in a boardroom and put on a facade of I I just am who I am. Uh that that doesn't mean I don't take it seriously. To the contrary, I'm very intense and very serious and take my responsibilities deeply seriously. Uh and so I lean in meaningfully uh when I need to.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

But that I think the point is you were comfortable with that transition. Like it wasn't that you felt intimidated to be sitting.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

No, I felt intimidated a lot. Okay. Because that was my experience. I still feel intimidated. Yeah. Uh you know, we we have a board meeting here at DI. We've got incredibly successful, incredibly brilliant shareholders who in their own rights are deeply successful, never notwithstanding what DNI's success is. And um one i I think it's very good to feel intimidated, and I do feel intimidated. I think it keeps you sharp, keeps you on your toes, and I like being surrounded by those people who really make me think and work hard.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

I'm glad you said that because you know, when I when I moved from Standerton, that Standerton hospital, to Santon, Norton Rose Fulbright, it was a massive transition, and I was super intimidated. I was like, I'm out of my depth here. My dad said to me, because my dad's an attorney, he said to me, Don't worry, these guys probably might even be intimidated by you. You come in here with a doctor title, they don't know about it, they're lawyers. But I still felt it. It took me a long time to get comfortable in the boardroom.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

So at least and I would say kudos to you for that vulnerability and for admitting that now and then to yourself. I think being vulnerable is a good human quality. And if you tell people that you're vulnerable and you're frank about being intimidated, generally good people will support you and and welcome that. The risk of not being open about it is they read that intimidation as an arrogance, as an aloofness, and then they perceive you really poorly, right? So I so kudos to you for for that. I I am still frequently intimidated by that, and and I welcome that feeling when it comes. Um you know, I'll give you a real example. I've been at DNI for about 18 months. When I joined 18 months ago, I didn't even understand the terminology. Um, you know, I don't know much, I didn't know much about the telco industry. I've never been an investment banker. A lot of the terminology here is investment banking terminology and and you know, sophisticated telco terminology, and it's taken me time to learn it. And I feel rocks to say, I don't understand, guys, go slowly, please explain it to me. And I've had to say that many, many times. Um, and my colleagues now chuckle when I say it, but you you know that I that is the truth.

SPEAKER_03 28:08

It it takes self-esteem to be able to do that though, because not everybody wants to admit and be vulnerable and say, I don't know.

unknown 28:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

You really I I think the opposite is true. So if you don't mind, I'm gonna disagree with you as the host. I think it takes more humility.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

You're saying it takes self-confidence, I actually think it takes humility um to admit that vulnerability.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 28:29

Yeah, well, my take on it is because we had another guest on the show that also kind of alluded to the same thing when he first started joining, when he you know joined corporate, and he was very intimidated, but also at the same time, he didn't want to be the smartest person in the room. He wanted to learn from other people. So my take is basically um, you don't want to come across as arrogant or get to a point where you walk in and you feel that everyone is lesser than you or knows a lot less than you, because that's a whole perception that will create that mind shift of creating that personal approach with someone.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Um Yeah, it's interesting what you say. I mean, it's there's actually, I think, a raging debate about this, right? And it just depends who you are and how you wear your skin. There are some people who feel like they must be identified as the smartest person in the room and they will keep pointing out what they've done, what they've achieved, and that they're ahead of the meeting, and that's okay. I mean, I don't think they mean disrespect to anyone else. It's obviously their own uh sense of value that needs, you know, to be recognized as the smartest person. I'd love to be the smartest person in the room. I just don't feel like everybody needs to know that. Um, you know, you can be the smartest person in the room, but also say the least and think the most. And I I personally, my style is that there's virtue in that. But you get some people who say the most and want to be identified as the smartest. And that's also okay, you need all personalities in a room and in a team to make to make a team work. I would say from my discovery time, one of the most incredible parts of working at Discovery is that you are never the smartest person in the room. Man, there are talented, smart people in that group. Um, and Adrian has an unrelenting mandate about just hiring the smartest. It's McKinsey-like. You have that same category of people. So every meeting you go to, you're going to be surrounded by actuaries, financial professionals, health professionals who are not only more qualified than you, but also intellectually more gifted than you. And that's a privilege because you do, as you said earlier, you do then learn in every single meeting.

SPEAKER_03 30:51

Do you ever get nervous for anything?

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Yeah, I do. Do you remember when the last time I didn't get nervous today?

SPEAKER_03 30:57

I said it to you, I'm super nervous because I want this to go well. You know, I don't want the tech to to fail us and things like that. But does it uh can you even remember when last week? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

I get I get nervous, I get nervous often. Yeah. Um and uh, you know, but uh this kind of engagement I really enjoy. Um I like talking to people. Um over my career I've been fortunate enough to do lots of interviews. In fact, you know from my LinkedIn profile that I was in your seat a lot of the time doing interviews with interesting people, and I became accustomed to it and I I enjoy it. I enjoy it. It's another reason why I accepted your invite. Um but I do get nervous um and I I feel performance pressure often.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

Okay. Would you ever go back to are you still registered with the HBCSA and do you practice or not really?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Um I've let my registration with HBCSA lapse, but that said I still remain current.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Um so I read a lot. I read a lot of journal articles. I read it on stuff that interests me: uh health, wellness, anti-aging, um, exercise, nutrition. Um so I'm reading journal articles almost every day, I would say. Probably more so than current healthcare professionals. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

So you're doing CPD for fun then.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Yeah, yeah. And I I love it. I find it fascinating. And my wife has an interest in this stuff. And although she doesn't read the clinical side of the article, she likes to understand the outcomes and conclusions. So we often have those conversations.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Are you just interested in in the latest, or is it does it help with business or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

No, there's no business impact. It's it's uh I I love evidence-based medicine. I and I'm a true believer in evidence-based medicine. I'm I love the science of you know pr uh proving that in fact some treatment or or lifestyle works. Um so I I read a lot of that evidence-based medicine.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

So that being said, for for Yash and I being lay people in in that uh industry, if you can summarize for us what are the top two or three hacks, biohacks that you've read about recently?

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Yeah, well, number one, two, and three is is without doubt exercise. Um it's incontrovertible. And whatever evidence you read, whether it be around mental health, um longevity, cardiovascular health, at the moment there is incontrovertible, hard evidence-based medicine that exercise is the best medicine for for many reasons. Um, and so I I'm religious about my exercise, not necessarily only because of the evidence, but also I find in my life it's a very positive factor. It calms me, um, it's a social moment for me every day. In an intensely packed day, I have 45 minutes of social time when I exercise with friends. It's good for my mental health. I know that without a doubt, it lifts me. I feel lifted afterwards, even on the days that I drag myself there, uh like this morning in the cold weather.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

So you're not one of those guys that put your headpoint on and and to yourself no more?

SPEAKER_00 34:01

No, no. If I train on my own, I wear headphones, but I try very hard not to train on my own. Um, I love the social side of exercising. And so I've got a small team of guys that uh I train with uh religiously, and uh that there's usually at least two or three of us there in most days. And do you do much cardio or is it more weight? I do cardio three times a week, uh, two to three times a week, and weight training the rest of the time. Um, but my weight training regime is different to you know typical. Um I do high-intensity weight training. So my heart rate never averages less than 115 through a weight session. I take very few breaks, I do very high reps, I do heavy weights too. The combination of heavy weights, high reps, and no breaks, you know, you actually have a good cardiovascular workout. You know, they call it zone two workouts. Well, mine are all zone two, some of them are even zone three.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

Yeah. Well, Discovery changed my life. I'm not blowing smoke up anybody's whatever, but I'm on a 150-week, one-week streak at the moment, and I make sure I do it.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Yeah. I'm I'm on 120.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Okay, what did you have a pause in between?

SPEAKER_00 35:12

I had I had COVID and I'm I missed a couple weeks, and and that set me right back.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Pro tip, you could have emailed them and told them, I know you know this, but you could have emailed them and told get my job. No, I had ankle surgery. So I had I was booked off for six weeks. So I emailed them. I gave them a doctor's note and it's cool. Okay. Anyway, I've got I'm I've got I'm on a higher streak than Ryan knows.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Yeah, but yeah, I've got a friend, uh ex-colleague, Johnny Bromberg, uh, who'd had a 360-week streak. Wow.

unknown 35:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

I think you worked that out in years, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Yeah. It's all it's like about nine, eight years. Um don't don't calculate my maths there. What was it like on the note of discovery? I mean, what was it like being a CEO and being the ininverted commerce boss, big boss of 5,500 plus employees?

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Man, it's a massive responsibility and a very difficult job. And I I know that there's bias in this, and I'm the first to say that that I'm biased, but I think it's one of the hardest jobs in South Africa. Um why is it so difficult? Well, like all big businesses, there's all the issues with the big business. You know, there's thousands of staff which you've got a responsible responsibility to. There's a product, there's a commercial issues, there's a business to run, there's shareholders, you report results every six months, you're only as good as your last six months results. There's stakeholders and customers, so all of the normal stuff of running an enormous business. And you know, you know the numbers there, right? I mean uh well uh roughly off the top of my head, there's about 90 billion rand a year that goes through Discovery Health. A large amount of it is premiums for the medical schemes, but Discovery Health, of course, bills the customers, collects those premiums, remits them, uh, you know, makes sure and then pays them back out again, claims and healthcare claims. Uh so that's not the true revenue of Discovery Health, but that's it touches almost a percent of South Africa's GDP. Um, so the commercial issues are very complex and and at scale, as big as it gets in this country. Aside from that, there is the huge societal and social responsibility that you carry there. Firstly, 75% of South Africa's taxpayers are the customers of discovery. So you're looking after the tax base and their well health and well-being. And secondly, there's all the ethical and humanitarian decision making. There's this natural tension in health insurance about what you can afford to pay for and how much you pay for versus what doctors prescribe and what's needed. And somewhere you've got to find a balance. And that's a very, very difficult job wherever you go in the world to find the correct balance for that. To make sure that you can put your head on the pillow at night and know when you go to sleep you're doing the right thing by your customers with the indemnity you're offering, but at the same time that you can sustain the medical scheme so that you don't bankrupt it overnight. Um, and so there's this strong ethical tension mixed with the social and societal responsibility, and it's a very public job.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

It it's so public, and you're not going to please anybody all the time, everyone all the time, and you probably have to.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Hey, in fact, the people that you please tend to be quite quiet. Okay. Because you please the people that are very sick. By definition, they're in the minority. You know, the old rule rule of health insurance 80% of the people don't claim and pay. 20% of the people claim a lot and pay their premiums. That 20% are highly satisfied, they're quiet. The 80% who are paying, but not necessarily claiming because they haven't broken their ankle or got frostbite, and they don't realize when you need it, you know what it costs. Um, they're complaining about a five Rand Copay at the pharmacy, which is actually not what health insurance is really about. Um they're complaining why they got to pay a 15 Rand Copay on their chronic medicine every month. Um, you know, but when you have a serious incident, um my best friend fell off a motorbike uh two and a half, three million rand later, and he, you know, it didn't cost him a Rand because that's when discovery steps up. So different topic, but I think where I was going is that it's extremely public, highly emotive. Um, you know, you've got an obligation to South Africa's tax base who do phone you individually when they've got needs and wants, and you've got all the pressures of running a listed commercial entity. It's a tough job.

SPEAKER_03 39:53

It's an interesting thing you mentioned about the the happy customers are quiet ones. Because I'm guessing that the feedback that you probably get was very complaint-heavy. People don't write to you and say, Ryan, thank you so much for Let me tell you a statistic I'm very proud of.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Please, yeah. The Council for Medical Schemes, who's the regulator in that space, lists the schemes with the highest number of complaints in its annual report every year. But w with a total lack of science, they don't divide it by the scheme membership. They just say in absolute terms, Discovery Health is is seven times the size of its next biggest competitor. So it is the giant. It never features in the top ten list of complaints.

unknown 40:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

Despite the volume of what they're gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

And that's not using a divisible denominator as a percentage of members. That's in absolute terms.

SPEAKER_03 40:46

Because I feel like also I feel like it's not easy, we don't make it easy for people to give us good feedback or positive feedback. My colleague and I, because I work at MPS, Medical Protection, we wrote an article recently where we said we think the HPCSA should consider having a compliments portal. Because they've got a complaints portal. I'll and why I thought of this article idea was because after my ankle surgery with my surgeon down the road here, I wanted to send him a compliment, but there was no formal place for me to do it. So I had to go onto Google, onto his page, and give him five stars. But I feel like a compliment will go a long way. And you guys don't get that, did you? Probably.

SPEAKER_04 41:21

My opinion is that, sorry, um because he he mentioned this uh previously, and I wanted Italian, but now's an opportunity. Me owning a practice, a private practice as well. It I think it gives too much opportunity for perverse incentives. Being the medical practitioners will then ask patients, okay, can you then will you just please write a uh response here and give me um you know?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Well, I've disagreed with him once in the interview. Now I'm gonna disagree with you. Love it. That's the end of disagreeing, right? But but I actually think ratings are critically important. They tend to be a self-fulfilling cycle of improving performance. So I think ratings are good. I think every service, every customer service should have a rating associated. I think Uber started that trend, and now you see it everywhere, and I I I encourage it. And I would love to have a place where doctors could be celebrated.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

Yeah. Um for the patient's well-being and for the doctors.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

And I'll tell you my anecdotal experience is 99% of the time, doctors are doing a great job, and their intent is absolutely good. But as we all know as clinical professionals, every procedure, every medication, there's all there is a risk of a side effect and a complication.

SPEAKER_04 42:38

The rewards program with Discovery, was that initiated in your time?

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Uh Vitality Rewards was there before I arrived. I was at Discovery for 16 or 17 years. Um, over the years it evolved, and I was very involved in the RD process around that. Uh, it's the world's best wellness program. And, you know, I always laugh when competitors um come out and say, marketing whistles and bells. They even put it in radio adverts. It's so inane of them because what they're missing is that actually it changes behavior. And the behavior change means that the scheme does better. Regardless. Uh and so, you know, let them call it marketing whistles and bells in their naivety. It actually really works.

SPEAKER_03 43:23

A close family friend, I don't want to call him out and mention him, but he said the exact same thing to me. And I said to him, you know what, it's changing my life. Uh even if it is bells and whistles, it's changed my life for the better.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Yeah, but you know, active rewards, which you're talking about. I don't know how we landed up talking about discovery here, guys, but happy to do so. But active rewards is fascinating. You know, people are running out there on treadmills to make their points every week. They're getting healthier and it's good for them, but they are chasing a target to get a small reward at the end of the day. And everybody wins. Everybody wins. It's just a crazy program. We like hamsters in we like hamsters in a y yesterday last night I finished my training session and I knew I needed to scrape into my points this week because I was lazy on the weekend. And so I went and did uh um an incline walk on the treadmill for 15 minutes after my training session just to get over the hour and make sure that I got extra points for the session, right? So that is the change of behavior.

SPEAKER_03 44:24

So what do you think about the future of healthcare in this country? To to totally pivot.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

We've got to resolve the structural inequalities. And it's unsustainable on the current basis. And uh I think as healthcare professionals, we have an ethical, professional obligation to find a solution. Um it doesn't sit well that the majority of our people cannot access the same quality of care as 16% of the population or the three of us sitting in this room who have private medical insurance. We've got to fix that. I think the starting point is improving public sector healthcare delivery long before you look at any pooled funding solutions. But I think there are structural and regulatory changes that are needed both on the private side and on the public side. I think a single fund in the form of an NHI with one rule that applies to all will fail dismally. Dismally. And I say that based on the evidence. There are no countries in the world that mandate a single system. The UK has the biggest national healthcare system in the world, and I would argue, notwithstanding its failures, the best. Yet in the UK, 23% of the population have private health insurance. It was 12 before COVID. Now it's 23. People are opting for private health insurance when they see the NHS having difficulties, they have an alternative. And by the way, that's good for the NHS in the UK because then it takes some of the burden off them from discretionary spending on healthcare. So we we have to solve it. The only way to do it is to sit around the table and put heads together. Why is that not happening readily? There are huge ideological gaps.

unknown 46:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

And unfortunately, our current Minister of Health and our current leadership in the Department of Health just cannot ideologically see a world where there's this public-private partnership in a real sense. Uh in a real sense, not lip service. Okay. Um, and where people can make discretionary decisions and where excellence is rewarded. If I were the Minister of Health today, the first thing I would do is I would focus on execution, on improving public sector delivery. And there is massive inefficiency, gross inefficiency that needs to be addressed. And I would be sitting around the table with private stakeholders and other stakeholders and begging for help, cooperation, partnership, looking for solutions.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

Oh, they're willing to come and help.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

The private sector, begging to help. Begging.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Especially now. They're beaten up and bruised and threatened by NHI and desperate to show a way that they can help. Now's the time. Just let us help. Just let them help. Go to the hospital groups and uh, you know, buy ward space cheap and put state patients in private wards when they've got complex conditions and deal with the waiting lists and do it on a sustainable, cost-effective basis. And the private sector will come along.

SPEAKER_04 47:33

If they are to approach you and say, Ryan, we'd love you to facilitate this private-public partnership. Would you ever consider something like that?

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Without hesitating. Without hesitating. But that's purely theoretical, right? Because it's it can only be the minister that sets the tone for that. And uh that nobody's making me the minister of health. I'm probably not up for it. Sure, it's uh you know, it's a it's a very tough job and uh and a thankless job. Yeah um, but if if the president sat here and said, Would you be the minister of health? I mean it's cuckoo land, right? Because who am I to be the minister of health? But I would step up.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

Okay, cool. All right, we've got a volunteer. Yeah, have you? We heard it first here. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 48:23

Because you're very community driven, as you said. You know, that was your uh well, I call it the Ikigai principle of wanting to give back to community. First is that, then family. So I think you, you Japanese, Japanese principle very, very well in that in that space. So yeah, for any listeners that has a contact to the government.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

I'm sure Ryan has contacts, but but that's a good sign for me that you said this because it tells me you still believe in this country and you wouldn't want to leave.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

You know what's a good sign? There's a hundred people like me, probably ninety-nine better than me, who who would answer you the same way. They'd take the job and they'd make a difference. I know that. The CEOs of the hospital groups, the a lot of discovery leaders, a lot of the other health insurance leaders, they would, if they really were given a genuine opportunity and a mandate and empowered to make change, they would do it. They're committed. There's a very committed leadership team out there. I think Adrian Gore would do it.

SPEAKER_03 49:24

But but back to you. I mean, you are you are you staying, are you positive? Are you happy? Because I've got lots of friends with him who say leave.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

You're telling me leave. Yes, I I I love the country. Uh, I'm deeply committed, and I see, I tend to see the good far more so than I see the bad. We have got difficulties and challenges, um, but there's so much good going for us at the moment as well. So much good. Um, and uh, you know, it was just great to read yesterday that we got a positive budget surplus before the cost of interest. Okay, we're overendebted uh as a country and we've got to deal with the debt. But we actually got a budget surplus for the first time in 12 years yesterday. Um, a 0.7% we snuck over. But uh nonetheless, uh, you know, that's that's good fiscal governance. And and kudos to our finance minister who's had a very tough time in the GNU resetting expectations and multi-party politics.

SPEAKER_03 50:22

Yak and I share your optimism about the country. It's one of the reasons why I deliberately named this Why Did I Become a Doctor, South Africa. I was told to drop the South Africa thing because it's limiting. But I I want this podcast to contribute to change in healthcare in some small way, whether it influences people to get into it or out of it. And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

But when you make it big like Steve Bartlett, uh then you can do why did I become a doctor America and Australia and UK?

SPEAKER_03 50:51

We'll get a network syndication going.

SPEAKER_04 50:53

Yeah, but it's sort of a pivoting question for me on that note. Um, I mean, the whole three of us here, we're kinda in this generational um time where we kind of also have to be committed. We can't be biased and say, oh, we're optimistic, but then, you know, we we're working like a nine to five job and we we don't have like goals and values. But what would you say to uh you've got two daughters? Um what would you tell tell your kids? Would you want them to stay? What are their interests? What are what do they want to do?

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Yeah, I'll tell you frankly, my conversation with my kids, I encourage them to do their postgraduate studies in South Africa. I've got three older kids. They're all still here. I've got one at Stellenbosch, two at GCT. Um, and I'm delighted that they're studying here. I'm convinced that they're getting a brilliant undergraduate education. I'd be very supportive if they want to go overseas and do some postgraduate training because I think the diversity of learning and the diversity of culture is very good for development. Um I don't know if they're going to do that, but if they'd like to, I'd be supportive. But I hope that they'd come back and work here afterwards. Um and I've encouraged them to be here. Uh and a sense of family and having family close by, I think, is also critically important. So I would love, they say you can't chase your kids, which I know, but I would love to find a way to try and keep us close to each other if we can. Although the world is a small place now, but if we can, naively uh I have that mental image.

unknown 52:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:28

What are your thoughts on AI and healthcare? You think about it, do you use AI?

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, use AI. I was talking to my dad this weekend. He's using Copilot in some of his development now, and he says that it's cutting massive amounts of time. Um, I met with our team at Pay Me Now, one of the subsidiary businesses here at DNI. Uh actually, it's no longer a subsidiary. We sold it and externalized it, but we are shareholders through a separate structure. And uh Pay Me Now, um, Heri Portketa, who's one of the uh founders of Pay Me Now, was telling me in his dev team, which does the app and the front-end stuff, they've saved 48% of dev time per function point that they're developing using AI, deploying AI for development. Now, in an environment of scarce development skills where you just can't find brilliant high-end developers, you're effectively getting one person to do the job that two people used to do, right? That's what it means, 50% time saving. Um, it's astounding. So it's it's changing our world and our business uh enormously. I think LLMs are just mind-blowing, and the speed at which they're developing is quite incredible. I think they're real risks, and there's a lot said about the risks. But I think as a world we've got to embrace this technology, cognizant of the risks and mitigating the risks every step of the way. I I don't know if you know the Gartner hype cycle. There's a cycle defined by Gartner around new technology, and they call it the hype cycle. And at the moment, I think AI is at the peak of the hype. What happens is it drops off that peak and it reaches the valley of reckoning or the valley where the realities of the technology become evident, and then you tend to get kind of a more realistic, slower lift of sentiment and support for it over time. I think we're right at the peak of hype at the moment. I should have bought more NVIDIA shares, um, that's pretty clear. Yeah. Um, and these the supercomputing happening uh, you know, around the chips, and the AI is amazing. I was reading about Amazon's new data center, which is just the most incredible investment in a supercomputer.

SPEAKER_03 54:44

Do you use AI personally, like in your day-to-day life?

SPEAKER_00 54:47

Uh I use I use it as a desktop tool.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

I would not say I'm a sophisticated user, um, but uh Chat GPT often gives me answers for stuff that I'm looking for. I use Copilot on my Microsoft applications. Um that's probably the extent of my use of it. I use Siri um, you know, for convenience and setting alarms and some and some some voice interaction.

SPEAKER_03 55:13

So, Ryan, what do you do for fun?

SPEAKER_00 55:16

A lot.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Uh yeah, as I said to you at the start, I like to keep it packed, eh? Um But everything's fun for you, I guess, at the end of the day. I yeah, that's a good answer. That's how I should have answered. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 55:29

No, but in the conventional sense of it.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

Yeah, yeah. I love my work, so that is fun. But what what do I do outside of the work? Uh exercise for me is probably the most important hobby in my life. We've spoken about that. But that's every day for me. Usually six days a week, uh, sometimes seven days a week, sometimes five. Um, and but but on average six days a week, and that's probably an hour a day. Uh so that's a big commitment of time, uh, but it's very, very important and so much fun. And I just love that. And I'm addicted to it. Um, I think I've got an endorphin problem, and those receptors are tingling all the time, and I'm just having to stimulate them. Um, I've got a series of great hobbies. Um, I fly helicopters, um, and I'm very passionate about aviation. Uh, I don't fly as much as I would like to, but uh my son was at a boarding school in KZN and I was flying down there regularly for the last five years, and that's just been a huge privilege. So you fly yourself there.

SPEAKER_04 56:31

Do you own your own?

SPEAKER_00 56:32

And my wife is a pilot too.

SPEAKER_04 56:33

Oh wow, okay. Do you own it? Do you guys own your own?

SPEAKER_00 56:36

Yes, yes, yeah. We have a share in in in aircraft, and um and my wife and I fly together, and that's just so much fun.

SPEAKER_03 56:43

Um Dad's picking me up, and then the kids look in the park, car park, and meanwhile, it's the airfield. What do you call it? No, no, no. Where do you land?

SPEAKER_00 56:49

So there's a very clear helipad, but there's a very clear rule about that, right? You stay as far as you can from the school, right? So I never ever embarrassed my kids. And and I'm and I'm not showy like that. I fly for the pleasure of flying. I love it. Next month, my wife and I are going to do a mountain flying course in the Darkensburg where you fly at high altitude, landing on pinnacles in high winds sometimes. Um, and that's a special kind of flying, and you fly with experienced instructors alongside you to teach you and learn, but it's really fun. I've got a very interesting video for you afterwards.

SPEAKER_03 57:25

I just realized something. You guys have some sort of connection because I've never been on a chopper in my life, right? You fly then. Yak's been airlifted by one, like dangling on a rope.

SPEAKER_04 57:35

Yeah, I d I didn't tell you that part of the Everest journey. I had to be medically evacuated, obviously for the frostbite. But um at the time it was considered the highest long line slinging operation in history. 7,300 meters. Sure. Yeah. So my pilot Maurizio Furini, he's uh the bad boy in the um helicopter rescue industry out of Italy. He's the one that rescued me. Wow. Oh, so he's confluent. I'm not sure actually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:05

They stripped it down.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

They stripped it down. Yeah, they would have taken everything out so that it weighed nothing and flown on a wisp of fuel to try and get up there and and get lift.

SPEAKER_04 58:15

They did, because when we landed back at B's camp when they dropped me off, there was a canister that they started fueling up again for us to get away.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

No, they would have they would have flown on a wisp of fuel just enough to get there and back safely. Yeah. Yeah, uh well Cathedral Peak is uh is high. Um I think the last time we were up there we got up to about uh 11,500 foot, uh which is which is serious, seriously high. And you guys gotta land or uh yeah, we land up there and you walk around a bit, and but you the flying is the is the fun part.

SPEAKER_04 58:50

Wow, that's that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 58:52

Yeah, very cool. So um flying choppers, exercising, anything else weird? I mean family. I've got I've got kids. Yeah. Uh I've got a four-year-old, um, and uh that's pretty busy. Uh you know, at 51 I forgot how busy a four-year-old is. Um man, what a person. I'm loving it. 47, you have the time. I'm loving it. Um and uh he keeps us really busy. He's a wonderful, happy child. Um, and uh and I'm I try to be an engaged father, so so that is busy. I've got a good social life. Um got close friends. I don't have many friends, but I've got a small number of very close friends. Uh love spending time with them. Um I shoot as a sport. Um, and so I I go shooting on the weekends um sometimes uh and enjoy that. I'm not a hunter, so I never shoot an animal, but I shoot a target. Okay and uh enjoy that very much. Uh yeah, I suppose that's it.

SPEAKER_03 59:56

So we always ask this question as a closing question on the show. Um and you mentioned the four-year-old. So when when the boy grows up and comes to you and says, Dad, I'm thinking of uh a career in medicine, what do you what advice do you have from what would you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

Well, it's easy for me to answer because I've had that conversation with my 19-year-old daughter.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:15

What did you tell her?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

I said to her, It's the most fabulous career, and I strongly encourage it, but you need to be deeply passionate. And are you quite sure that's what you want to do? It's a long road. You need it, you need to live, eat, breathe, and sleep that. Your friends are going to be working and earning money, you're still gonna be a student. If you're gonna specialize, you're in for a very long haul, 12 to 15 years. Uh you're gonna be well into your 30s by the time you enter real working life and and start earning a decent living. Um, and you know, are you that committed? And in her case, her decision was I'm not passionate enough. Although we're now six months into first year and she's doing business science and she's reconsidering and has applied for medicine now.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:07

Oh wow, is she the daughter that started uh um uh hashtag compassion during the case?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

No, that was my older daughter. Okay. So that's Tegan, my older daughter. She's turning 22 imminently, and she is uh she's in doing arterial science at Stellenbosch and gonna do an honors next year.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:25

But I guess the big question is how do you know whether you're passionate about something? That's the thing. How do you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

Yeah, I I think you're that's a very smart question, and you know. I think when you are 18, finished school, and you have to choose a profession, I just don't think you have the maturity or life experience to understand what you're choosing. It's a little bit like choosing a life partner. I also think that at those young ages you're just too young to choose a life partner. Um, one must wait until you're older. And the same applies for a career. Although our world is fast-paced, and certainly the young people feel under pressure. I did when I was young, feel under pressure to get going on with life. You don't want to lose time, people are overtaking you, and there is that feeling around, so it does push you in a direction. But look at me. I mean, I made a big pivot in my career. I I don't do any healthcare day to day. Sadly, I miss it. But uh, I love the stuff that I do now, and I made a real pivot. So it doesn't mean you're committed for life.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:30

Yeah. I was a dentist to become a lawyer, and now I'm interviewing the ex-CEO and the CEO of DNI and all these things. So you know, you never know. You can be 50 and then change.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:40

Exactly. How old are you?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:41

I'm 37.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

Wow, you got you could be my son.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:48

So Yak, any closing any c closing comments from you, right? I mean it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:51

Just to say thanks. Um I mean, this is a great conversation and relaxed and well done on what you're doing. And you've converted me into a listener.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:00

Thank you so much. And I'm gonna add you on LinkedIn so I can unsubscribe for my Please do.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:05

Let me save you the two hundred and sixty seven red or whatever you said it was.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:09

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

Thanks, uh, satisfied. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:14

Sweet.