SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back everyone. Um today we've got our first orthopedic surgeon on the show, our first orthopod.

unknown 0:08

Dr.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Human Ishragi. Welcome, Doc. Thank you very much. I have pronounced it correctly.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Perfect, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Perfect. Yak and I have something in common besides being family members and cousins that like we were telling you. Um both of us have had our bones cut into in the last two or three years. So I guess orthopods are close to us, um, you know, specifically.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Yeah. And also we both have had um well, specialist orthopedic surgeons as well. Yash being into feet and uh me with my hand. But we'll get we'll get into that. My um my orthopedic surgeon, uh Dr. Roger Nicholson, also has agreed to come onto the podcast. So it would have been great to have both of you on here, but who knows what would have happened then. Woman, welcome. Sorry for all that rambling. Thank you very much. Thanks so much for for saying yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

What does an orthopedic surgeon do? So an orthopedic surgeon is a medical specialist who specializes in treating bones and joints. That's basically in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yeah. I mean, you guys have an odd uh reputation among the specialities for being like the the bone crushers and you know, I don't know if it's a stereotype or what, but uh am I right? I've seen it in like medical humor. They like these guys just break bones.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

It is it is true. We all basically start as holistic doctors and after a while we somehow go into our own field and our speciality. And uh unfortunately uh tend to sometimes forget about the rest of the body and just focus on the bones. But it's usually a joke, but uh there are it's there is some truth to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

When you were growing up, did you always know that I'm gonna be an orthopedic surgeon one day or uh it's actually interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Um I always knew I was I was gonna be a doctor and always wanted to be a doctor. Uh but um I remember the day that I fell in love with orthopedics. So it's an interesting story. Like uh I was a medical student and uh I was work uh walking at the Barragonald hospital in the theater complex, and uh I walked past the orthopedic theater and I saw one of my uh colleagues, uh he's a colleague now basically, who was doing a hip replacement and it and the door was open. So I looked inside the uh the theater and I saw all the gadgets and he was doing uh hip replacement, so there were like lots of stems and uh you know uh basically orthopedic tools, and uh I was like, wow, this is cool. This is cool. This is like uh uh essentially being a kid and playing with toys and you know you doing your job at the same time. So I knew from that minute that I wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon, and I never looked back.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Well, you said something interesting that piqued my interest, actually. You said you always knew you wanted to be a doctor. Like when is the first memory for you of I want to be a doctor?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

So um I've got uh two older sisters, and my my elder sister uh is 16 years young older than me. So it's a big gap. Yeah, yeah, it's a big gap. And so uh I I've got a younger sister as well who was also a doctor, and the two of us, I think we just looked up to her.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

She was a doctor also.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

She uh she's a doctor now as well, yeah. So the two of us were like when we grow up, we want to be like our older sister. So since childhood, we always wanted to be a doctor, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Okay, so Doc, we we don't know each other. Uh Yash is obviously your patient, if I'm allowed to disclose that. But uh I'll I'm gonna delve more into trying to get to know you. So I I detect a bit of uh accent. Yeah. You want to tell us more about that? Uh where are you from? Where did you grow up? Um how did you end up in South Africa?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Right. Uh so I'm originally Persian. Uh obviously Persia doesn't exist anymore, so it's uh essentially Iranian. And uh uh as per as as Iranians we we like to we like to uh call ourselves Persian, it's a Persian Empire and the and uh you know uh all the uh you know uh good things about the the you know the the the history essentially um and the culture and everything else around it. So I'm a I'm a Persian, I grew uh I I was born in Iran um and I grew up in Iran and um I moved to South Africa when I was 17 years old uh with my family. So just just why and um how I ended up in South Africa. Um again it's a uh long story, I don't want to bore you, but essentially we were religious minorities in in Iran and there was a lot of religious persecution about uh our religion. We are Baha'is, uh belonging to Baha'i faith. And uh unfortunately there has been a lot of persecution and to this day there is a lot of persecution about the members of the Baha'i faith. So as Baha'is um we were not allowed to go to um have tertiary education essentially, uh amongst other persecution. So um when I was finishing high school, uh we had to have a plan. And we had lots of relatives in South Africa and my older sister, the one who was a who's a doctor and uh aunts and uncles, and um, they were all living in South Africa, so we ended up coming to South Africa um uh in 96.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Yeah. So yeah, so the I mean don't worry about boring us. These are the granular details that we're actually uh interested in. Uh just to tell you, I'm from Peter Meritzburg, actually. And there's quite a big Baha'i faith and following in Peter Meritzburg for some reason. We had quite a few Baha'i um students at um at my high school, Rezvan Maani. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Do you know Rezvan? Yeah, yeah. Oh wow, okay. Yeah, yeah. And he was quite big into the Baha'i faith.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yes. The first time I came across people, like Baha'i people, was when I started studying my undergrad dental degree at University of Pretoria. And uh, you know, it's the first time I'd come across Persian people, Iranians or Iranians, I don't know how you pronounce it. I mean, and the funny thing is quite a few medical doctors, like the Shamses, Mariam Shams, and then you probably know all of them also. So I I didn't know yet that there was a Baha'i community in Maritzburg.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yeah, um well I I I don't know what the congregation called. It wasn't a church, but they did have a place of uh communal place of worship. I'm not sure what it was called. But the way Rezvan explained it to me the one day when I asked him, because he originally came from the States, um, was that they take the best out of every religion and it's kind of incorporated into one sort of uni cultural uh practice. Um is that Emma, is was that the correct interpretation?

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Sure. Uh so Baha'i faith is uh is an independent religion. Um uh you know, it's a very peaceful religion. Um it uh originates from Iran. Uh our prophet was born in Iran, and uh it's uh essentially we believe that you know all the religions come from the same God. Uh you know the uh uh you know uh social teachings change, but the essence of all religions is essentially the same. So uh we believe in um unity, we believe in uh essentially unity and diversity is one of the uh main principles of Baha'i faith that's you know become a lot more relevant these days, you know, especially in South Africa, you hear it a lot more, essentially comes from uh Baha'i faith. Uh but uh but uh the social teachings with all the tr religions may differ, but essentially same God, uh you know, and uh no, you know, depending on the t need of the time, we believe that the religions change and the teachings essentially uh you know become fresh, you know. So that's essentially it, you know. But it's a very adaptive religion, it's like yeah, it's uh unfortunately there is a lot of persecution um in in in Iran and in essentially Middle East, about the you know, if if you're not part of the the majority, uh there is there's a lot of hardship. And uh unfortunately and and that's how we ended up in South Africa. Yeah. But there's there I mean there are a lot of Baha'is all over the world, including South Africa, and that's that's what I love. South why I love South Africa, you know. South Africa and South Africans embrace everyone. You know, they and this is even though I I was born in Iran, I see myself as a Persian South African. And uh, you know, this is one place that I is giving me my my new home, my new identity, and uh and yeah, I find South Africans very embracing, and that's why, you know, we you know essentially everyone can practice their religions, their cultures, everything else in South Africa quite nicely.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

So what's your your home language? Is Farsi or Persian? Okay. So And and is that all you spoke in Iran?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yeah, there are lots of different languages, there's different like lots of different dialects in Iran. Um, but uh essentially Persian is the main language in in Iran.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

So when you moved to South Africa at the age of 17, how was your English?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Very bad. It was it was terrible. Like, you know, I always just tell this story. Um you know, when I moved to South Africa, I had done grade 11 in Iran, and uh I came to South Africa knowing and thinking that I wanted to do medicine. And uh my my oldest sister who's uh the general practitioner, uh she was essentially like the mother and father figure uh for us at the beginning, and she she still is. Um so she started, you know, looking at university options and and um after a while they told us you'll have a much better chance to get into university if you matriculate in South Africa. So we ended up looking at high school options and I ended up going to grade 12, but not knowing any English or like very minimal. Uh it was it was hard, you know. Which high school was that? It was um at the time it was called Damlin College High School. I don't think um privatized institution. Yeah, it I don't think it offer offers any um high school uh any anymore. In Joburg or whereabout? No, it was in Joburg, it was in Parktown. It was actually um so I ended up going to Damlin. Um uh I I I really felt bad, you know. I I was keeping my my classmates uh behind all the time because you know they had to like s spell every single word for me on the board and it was it was it wasn't it wasn't fun. But I think once you are thrown in a deep end, you you learn to swim very quickly, you know. I I always tell the story, uh my first English test in um January. It was uh January uh '97. And my first English test, it was a comprehension test. They gave us a paragraph and uh it was an hour test, and uh there were 25 questions, and I started reading this sentence, uh, this paragraph, and I was like, hmm, um I thought I understood a little bit. I started answering by the time I answered question five out of 25, it was the time was up. A week later I got my my my result, and it was like first one was wrong, second wrong, third was wrong, fourth was wrong. And then she gave me, she f I think she felt bad for me, so she gave me one mark. One out of twenty-five, I was like, four percent is uh it's gonna be a struggle for the year. Yeah. And so yeah, I I studied hard that year and so this was 97, the same year you came to South Africa. Yeah, we came here in 96 and I went to school in 97.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Yeah. Yeah. Your parents, did they have any other options of where to immigrate to at that stage? Uh what what do you think made them choose South Africa? Uh yeah, we we anyway.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

We had relatives here, so I think it was the easiest option for us, you know. It wasn't that easy to go elsewhere. But, you know, I I I still love I love the place. I loved it from the beginning and uh it's one of those decisions that I really uh happy that we made, you know. So why medicine? Why? Medicine. As I said, you know, my my my my we always looked up to my sister. So from from childhood, we we uh we we me and my younger sister we both wanted to do medicine. And it was one of those passions that we grew up with and uh we wanted to do it and it's you know it's one of those things that you set your mind on it and you you just end up doing it.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Okay, so from a matrix student who is getting four percent for English, how do you get into med what's the journey into medical school?

SPEAKER_00 14:27

It was hard. It was hard. Um I I worked really hard that year. Um I ended up with uh relatively good marks, but uh you know, it was not easy to get to med school. So I ended up doing uh BSC for a year. Uh BSC in science and um and yeah. Adverts. Adverts as well. Yeah. So by the end of that year, uh my marks were uh, you know, uh quite uh quite good. So I uh essentially beginning of 1999, I um I started with med school.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

I mean I think it's worth pausing though, and like looking at this. Uh you're learning in some a language that you're not fluent in and you still get into university. So that means you were quite a bright student. Uh how were you doing in Iran?

SPEAKER_00 15:16

No, I was doing well. I mean I mean I was always like a like a good student at at high school and primary school.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

So no, I was uh uh There was no YouTube and Google and all that stuff to help you in those days.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

No, there was no YouTube or Google Translate at that time. No, it's the first computer that we used was like actually in university here.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

So uh no, we're talking about And people didn't treat you uh badly or bully you and say like you know when you started it because you said people were uh waiting for you and having to spell things out for you. How was that that trick here?

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Back in Iran? No, no, yeah. Oh yeah. No, no, no. I mean like you know, uh the one good thing about uh dumbling was there there were a lot of foreigners there. Uh you know, and and that's actually what uh it it uh was so interesting for me, you know, is coming to South Africa. Essentially it was the rainbow nation. You know, there were like, you know, when when you grow up in like uh somewhere like Iran or Middle East, uh I think 100% of your your friends, your classmates are all the same as you. I mean, yeah, maybe different religions, but like, you know, they essentially just speak the same language and they look like you. You come to South Africa and you find a very different story, you know. You have people, you know, uh white people, black people, Indian people, you know, uh uh foreigners, uh and everyone's getting along with everyone, everyone's like, you know, uh So it was the first time you came across a black person in South Africa. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and yeah, it was basically uh I came across per people of different cultures, different nationalities, and and uh Damlin, that was the nice thing about it. It was like a very, very diverse kind of group. Okay. And even though uh, you know, they had to, you know, wait for me in in the lecture or in the class, but they were like very nice people, like you know, some some I still friends with, and uh no, I had no issues.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

So you were all on the same boat almost and common purpose. So there were some patients. Because I guess if you went to a normal high school, not a normal, but like one that didn't have um all the different cultures and uh uh what uh uh nationalities, you you might have come across a different situation.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Probably it would have been a bit more difficult, but yeah, that's what we that's why we chose it.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, Damlin is i is it's geared towards um matriculating or um the metric syllabus. I do they have any other grades? Do you know?

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Um I don't think actually their high school is uh uh I I'm I may be wrong, but I think they are like a like a private college. Private college. Yeah, yeah. I think they had the private college at the time as well, but yeah. They had a school uh metric uh syllabus as well at the time. Okay. Uh I'm I'm actually not sure at at the moment what's going on with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

So we need to just again, I'm sorry to like go back to this, but we need to for people watching. You can be a person that's getting four percentage English in metric and still become an orthopedic surgeon uh years later. Cool as you can. It's inspiring. I mean, I think it's brilliant. Uh so people out there thinking, you know, I'm not I'm not performing, you can. Um okay, so you did the BSC. How long is that?

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Uh the BSC course is uh three to four years, but uh um the if you if you get good grades, you can always apply to medical schools. I think the program has changed since. And uh but you can still do sometimes a year or two of BSC and apply? Sorry. How long did you do your BS? I just did it for one year.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

And you were doing really well, so they bridged you.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

I did relatively well and then yeah, so I applied and I got into medical school. Yeah. Okay. So I for for the first year um I got a lot of my credits from the BSC year, so I started properly with the medical school from second year.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Oh, that's great. And how was med school? Any memories? What do you remember from yeah, medical school?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Always it was at WITS? At VITS, yeah. I did everything at WITS, you know, BSC, medical school, um, and my specialization at VITS. Um yeah, um medical schools, you know. It's we don't.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

You don't know. You what do you call a doctor that never went to med school? A dentist. Yeah, yeah. So we don't know. Tell us about med school. What is it like?

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Uh no, med school was challenging. Uh I think that's uh even if you're doing well at uh high school or primary school, like you know, uh, and you think you're doing well, you come to med school and all those people who are doing well are now your classmates. And all of a sudden you think you go from a very like you know, top performing student to someone who is like become very average. So um it was challenging, it was uh hard work, but the thing is that uh you know we we grew up you know in as a as a kid, as a you know, in a country that there was a lot of persecution with a lot of challenges. So, you know, but you're used to it, you know. You you are here to work hard and to to get where you want to get to.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Was life life here easier than in Iran or can you combine it?

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Um as I said, you know, uh you know, in South Africa you don't have a lot of the challenges that we did have back home. And a lot of them again go back to that religious persecution, you know. So um yes, you know, you don't have to worry about getting kicked out of school, you don't have to get worry about, you know, your your your father being in prison because of his persecu uh like religious persecution, you don't have to worry about you know a lot of those sort of things. So um yeah, you can focus on your life and your work and your your your career, etc. So and you know, like you know, you are being treated like everyone else. So I think from that point of view it was much easier, I would say, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah. And what I mean if you take us back there to Iran, I'm interested in what was it like growing up there. What w what town or city did you grow up in?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

So what was it like? Um I was I was born in uh Tehran, which is the capital. We grew up in a um in a small town called uh Gombat, which is In northern part of Iran. Is that bordering the Iraqi border? No, no, no, no, no. Iraqi border is on the west. So this is on the uh north north north of Iran. Okay. Near the Caspian Sea. You know, I I have fond memories from my childhood, you know. My father was in prison for five years. Uh again, based on uh our religion. You know, so um I was four years old when he was thrown into prison. Wow. And until I was nine. Um, you know, a lot of my friends weren't so lucky, you know, they were they were they were they were killed, you know, their their their parents were killed. But like, you know, my father was in prison. Um we we uh we as a community we had a you know a very close-knit community. Um and uh even though it was hard, it was um um you know, as as a child you always think back and you always remember the good good, you know, um uh stories and uh, you know uh you know you you don't you don't remember those hard moments, you know. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Um and what did your parents do? Were they part of a medical background?

SPEAKER_00 23:24

No, no, no, no. Not at all, actually. Uh my my father, um he's actually my parents uh still alive and they they live in Jobrik. Um my father uh was uh essentially a farmer or farm uh uh like a landowner. Uh and uh again they they took away the like you know all their uh belongings because of their religion. Um, you know, my my mom um was a housewife and um that's essentially you know uh I've got I've got three siblings, three sisters, two older than me and one younger than me. And uh yeah, so uh we grew up in that northern city and we moved to Tehran, which is the capital, at the age of 13. And then three years later I I moved to South Africa.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned the thing about, you know, as a kid you remember all the good stuff. Now I'm I'm going back to med school now. Maybe you're only remembering all the good stuff. Were there any bad things about med school? Med school. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Um not I can't, you know what, I'm also a very positive person. I I I tend to forget the bad things, you know. I can't even think about about the bad things, you know. I I always remember the the good thoughts, the good memories, you know. Um It was hard, but it was it was fun. You know, your student days are the best day, the best days of your life, you know, even though it's med school and it's hard and you have to study hard and you you don't have a social life and you you know but but uh you think back and say like you know those days were the days, you know. So when were you a med undergrad med student from 2000 from uh 1999 uh to I graduated in 2000, you know, it's so long ago that that you kind of forget in 2005. This year is gonna be our 20th, 20th uh uh basic anniversary of like we having a uh re school uh medical school reunion at the end of this year.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

How many autopods in that group?

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Um good question. Uh I don't know. I must I must count, but uh quite a few. And you still are you still friends with a lot of those people? With with a medical school, yeah, yeah. A lot of them are uh my friends from the back then, a lot of them are colleagues, you know. We um some went overseas, some a lot of them are around. Now we have uh formed a WhatsApp group uh essentially to organize that reunion. And uh, you know, people are coming back from all over the uh you know uh all over the world. You you can see some of them are Australia, some of them are in Europe, some of them are in the you know, US or Canada, but majority are actually in South Africa, you know, interesting enough. Um, you know, some I work with as other specialists and some are the general practitioners, and so yeah, there's a lot of them are uh my sister is was from the same class, so you know, so yeah, we we um you know hang out quite a bit still.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Is your sister also a specialist though?

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yeah, yeah, she's a radiologist.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Okay. Oh that's uh convenient. So we've got an orthopedic surgeon and a radiologist. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

You guys uh w work together quite a lot. No, no, she does uh she basically does a mammography practice. So uh yeah, we completely separate fields.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Okay. All right. And you live in the north of Joburg, I'm assuming. Yeah, in the Santana area. Yeah. That's where and uh where did you do your up?

SPEAKER_02 27:13

I did my up. You're wanting me to disclose uh my confidential information. No, I'm I'm I'm keen to disclose anything, it's fine. Uh how I got to be treated by Dr. Ishragi is I searched, I went on Google and I searched ankle surgeon near me, and you were the first guy that popped up because I'm I'm based in Santa.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

If you don't mind, can you tell us more about that? Like what happened? What were your symptoms? What what made you because normally it's a referral. If you if you're feeling something funny, you go to a doctor or fizzy or whatever, they would refer you to someone that they know. Yeah. Yash, on the other hand, will go on to Google and figure out who's the best.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Yeah, so I'm not I'm not one of those patients that like self-refers and stuff. But what happened was I well to answer your question, Yaakso, let me look at you. I mean, I'd had this ankle pain for like over a year almost. I thought I'd just sprained it doing a uh steep incline walk. And I'd been to podiatrists and I'd been to physio, and uh I felt like, you know what, it's it nothing was was helping it. So that's why I was at a s at my wit's end to say I need to actually go to an orthopod. And I think um one of you if the my wife's uh parents who are also specialists, they said, you know, go to an orthopedic surgeon. Um and that's what made me Google ankle surgeon specifically near me.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

And then I went to Oh, so so you went directly to a surgeon. You didn't go to a physician or anything.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah, no, I went directly because I'd been I'd been all the other routes. Um that's the beauty of being in South Africa, by the way, because I work with a lot of UK-based uh colleagues. And and some some of them are uh you know ex-South Africa expats, you know. And they say to me the one beautiful thing about South Africa is that you can go directly to a specialist if you want. You don't have to go through the whole chain of GP and then wait. But no, yak, we've skipped too much here. I don't want to I wanted to get to that later. We were at med school. So you so med school to you, see uh obviously you breeze through that. It's a six-year degree, right? Advertis. Yeah. And then did you have to do community service also? Uh internship in ComServe?

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you do uh uh these days you do two years of internship. Uh I was the last group, uh part of the last group who did one year internship. Uh so I did my internship at Helen Joseph Hospital. Um and then uh I went for my community service to Clarkstop, Clarkstop, uh uh which was very very nice because uh there's a lot of hands-on uh in that hospital, and I learned a lot of my orthopedics in my community, uh community service yeah, and I stayed behind an extra year. Uh so two years in Clarkstorp, and I came back, I did medical officer time in um uh at VIS again, and and then I got into my speciality in 2010.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

I know a lot of the students do a rotation through Clarkstorp um in their uh not their final years, even in the internship. And there's there's phenomenal uh feedback from that circuit. And uh well it sounds like you you got very lucky getting comserve there in in Clarkstop.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Yeah, so I I I always wanna as I said, I always knew I wanted to do orthopedics. So I requested to to do my comserv in orthopedics, and they said you can do at least six months. So I started in orthopedics from the beginning and uh right through I just did orthopedics in my community service. So I started operating and uh uh you know uh you know, getting exposure in orthopedics from from community service days. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

You were mentioning Barra uh in the story about So how do how do you Because you mentioned Helen Joseph is where you did your internship. When do you get exposed to Barra? Chris Harney, Barragona.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah, so basically as uh students you rotate through the three uh hospitals, uh Barragona, uh you know, Joe Big Jen or Charlotte Maxek and Helen Joseph. So you you rotate uh through your clinical years in those hospitals. So um you get to experience uh different ort uh medical fields. So you do internal medicine, you do surgery, you do orthopedics, ENT, uh in different rotations essentially, different hospitals.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

So if I can ask, you didn't have to do that, you kind of stuck to orthopedics.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

No, no, no, no, no. No, you when you when you are in medical school, you do everything, and that's when you become an um that's your undergrad. And uh then you write your exams and you become a uh medical doctor. Once you're a medical doctor, you do your um internship, and in internship you actually have to rotate through different specialities. And then uh and then you do a community service. So you you can do a community service in a bigger hosp uh bigger town or smaller town or a bigger hospital or a smaller hospital, and you could still rotate through different specialities, but um I just managed to get into orthopedics and I study in orthopedics, so that's what they needed. Yeah. Okay, that that was in Clarkstorp. Yeah, yeah.

unknown 32:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

But as a as a as a medical doctor, you have to be exposed and be able to have the basic knowledge of all specialities and to to be able to do your exams and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Okay. And then I I don't know if I'm skipping forward uh at all here, but when when did you decide to privatize, step out in from public?

SPEAKER_00 33:05

So when you uh I did um you know, once I I was done with my uh speciality uh as an orthopedic surgeon, uh I looked around different uh fields as uh and I came across foot and ankle surgery. And uh I f saw that uh you know there were a lot of other super specialists in in different fields like hips and knees and hands and shoulders and so um there weren't as many uh specialists in foot and ankle surgery. And um some of my um good colleagues uh or my mentors, they were foot and ankle surgeons in town. So I basically I approached them and asked them if I could do a fellowship with them. And they were kind enough to share their knowledge and their uh expertise with us. And uh uh once I'd done my fellowship with them, then uh uh there are usually two choices, either to get into a public setting or a uh private setting. So there was an opportunity for me and I started my private practice in 2015.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Okay, but to to super uh specialize, you still gotta go through CMSA. Is that where to register?

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Uh yeah, uh with with the super speciality. Yeah. Um in um other specialities like uh internal medicine and uh uh those super specialities, those super specialities, yes. In the surgical specialities, there isn't there isn't a formal program that is registered on So there's not a formal registration. It is a formal program, but it's not uh registered. Actually, nowhere in the world you get super speciality registration on their surgical uh sub specialities.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

So so yes, yak, you are skipping ahead because I wanted to talk about specializing. So after you do after you become a you know medical practitioner and you do all those rotations everywhere and you do comserv, then you get into what what registrar program do you get into? What's it called? Is it orthopedics?

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Or is it orthopedic surgery uh registrar program, yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Okay, so it's not like a general surgical thing, uh it's it's specifically for orthopedics.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

That's correct. Uh so uh a lot of uh there are you know general surgery programs available as well and um uh some of uh for example other surgical specialities, um they have to, for example, for example, like plastic surgeons and they have to do the general surgery program first and then do, for example, plastic surgery or vascular surgery or so forth. But with orthopedic surgery, it's usually from the beginning you go into the orthopedic surgery program. So you don't have to do a general surgery. There's a lot of like um little courses that you may do together with with the general surgeons, um, like for example, the basic surgical skills course, or um you do your exams, some of the exams together with them, like a primary exam. You can like that's uh all the surgery, surgical specialities, they do it together. But uh with with, for example, intermediates and finals and the rest of the program is completely separate.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Okay. And so who who's your professors and stuff when you get into the orthopedic reg program or your consultants? Who do you work under?

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Um So you work with uh there are lots of uh orthopedic profs and consultants at uh depending on where you do it. So I did advertise under uh some of my uh you know mentors and uh consultants. Who are they? Who are your mentors and so at the time uh Professor Lukiele was the head and um Professor Ramachopa, yeah, he was the you know the the the second head. Um and then um there are like uh a lot to name, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

And then is it just what do you do as a orthopedic registrar? Like you just operate, just break bones every day and put it in why is it?

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Yeah, so yeah, you basically you practice your passion, you know. So I was again, like you know, some people uh do work for the sake of doing work or making money or you know, um uh but you know, I was I was I I've been lucky to find my passion. So when I work, I actually, you know, as if I'm having fun. So being in theater or seeing a patient, it's fun. You know, it's like you know, this is I practice what I I love every single day. Yeah. So in terms just answering your question, in terms of what do what do we do, uh uh you know it's divided into consultations, you know, right now, like divide consultation or theater. So when you're consulting, you are seeing either new patients or follow-up patients, and and when you are uh in theater or when you're operating, you you do surgery. Yeah. So you go to theater and uh you either fix bones or uh if if if there's a fracture involved or if you're doing a reconstruction work, you know, I'll I'll get to what we do as orthopedic surgeons or as foot surgeons essentially. But uh, you know, we we do a variety of things. Uh uh, you know, doing reconstruction surgery, doing uh I if you want me to, I can I can actually tell you exactly what you see a lot of trauma patients and like motor vehicle accidents and things like that. Especially when you start as a as a medical officer or in a uh you know, as when you are doing your specialization, that's basically all you do. So there, you know, there is quite an overload of patients in the you know in our um uh public setting. So uh you you don't get to do any anything in terms of you know doing uh reconstruction work or doing the uh the non-urgent or non-essential work, essentially. So all you do every day is fixing bones.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

So from head to toe, or is it any from head to toe, or is it any part of the body you don't touch?

SPEAKER_00 39:40

As a specialist, we uh you know there is part of the anatomy that you essentially specialize from. So uh sometimes the doc uh like sometimes uh you know a junior doctor calls you and says, I've got a rib fracture. Can you fix it? I'm like, no, the rib fracture doesn't fall. It's a bone, but it doesn't fall under you know, orthopedic surgery. What is that for? That's under uh, you know, either um cardiothoracic surgeons or or trauma surgeons. But as as orthopedic surgeons, uh you start uh, you know, if you want to get into details, you start from a clavicle down. Um that's a collarbone? That's a collarbone. And you know, you do the upper limb. You're speaking to dentists, I remember. Yes, yes. Please, sorry. We only know max facts, like uh clavicle upward. I thought you did anatomy.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Oh, barely did anatomy.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

I barely So you did you did you do it from collarbone and the entire upper limb, and then um there are obviously swine surgeons who do the uh the swine, and you know, as the rest of the orthopedic surgeons you do from you know pelvis, hip, knees, female bone, all the way down to the toes.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

So it's like that, it's like that um that um ceely postopedic advert, the hip bones connected, all those bones are orthopedic surgeons involved in.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Okay, cool. Yeah, I wanted to touch on something, right? So I mean there's a what do you want to call it, a stereotype that we're we're like field doctors. But when you watch Scrub Scrubs, um have you ever watched Scrubs? Um I haven't. It's a series, it's a comedy. But also you you see memes and things like that. There's a stereotype that the autopods are like the jocks of the specializations. Is is that correct? Is that what you guys are seen as from the status and everybody else?

SPEAKER_00 41:29

As I said from the at the beginning, you know, unfortunately there is a bit of truth to it. So um, you know, we all you know, we all doctors at the end of the day, we all go through the same program, and sometimes uh uh you know, you start practicing as a as a holistic doctor and you try to be the holistic doctor, but you know, at some stage you end up, you know, focusing on that bone. Yes, you're doing what you do. That sometimes you forget about the other part. So we always have that uh, you know, running joke at uh in theater with my even my with my anethetist that you know uh you forgot you forgot to check the patient's heart or if but you know we try to, but uh at some stage you forget that uh stethoscope at home and you don't use it that often.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

You Yak actually reminds me of something um by bringing that up. So when I Googled you, right, and I came to your website, I remember, now I'm a I'm a lay person, obviously, even though I'm a dentist. So I do have that preconception that I'm gonna be now consulting with one of these, you know, orthopedic surgeon types. And I remember like the photos on your website, you do look quite intimidating also. I think it's like a like the camera angle is a bit lower. Yeah. I I I think so. I can't remember. But then so when I was preparing myself to consult, and you you guys won't think of this because you see patients every day, right? But now, patient to come to you, it's a big part of their life. Like it's they've got to take time out of their job. They've got to think, oh my goodness, is this guy gonna just you know look at me and not? And I'll never forget my first consultation with you, and this is a plug for you, right? So you examine me, you sent me down for x-rays, and then I came back up, and this sticks with me. And I even went and gave you a like a five-star Google review because of this after my treatment. It's like the first thing you told me was you didn't try to make it seem like you knew exactly what was going to be done. You said to me, Yesh, I mean, this is the first time I've seen a lesion like this so ginormous at somebody your age. And what I want to do is I I want to consult with some of my senior colleagues and maybe my international colleagues and get back to you. And I know a lot of doctors, a lot of clinicians think that by doing something like that, the patient might not trust you because they might think this guy doesn't know what he's doing, he wants to speak to somebody else. But I ever since that that moment, that was when I trusted. You fully because I said this guy's not trying to sell me a procedure. He's telling me I actually need to consult with my colleagues. And you could have done anything else wrong afterwards. So you also uh your calm demeanor and the way you dealt with me, and the way I'm sure people can pick it up now in this conversation, it's totally against the stereotype of the jock type of thing. So yeah. What any comments about that?

SPEAKER_01 44:28

Well, firstly, though, is ginormous uh medical term.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

He's gonna break it down for a lay person, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Now that you're paraphrasing me. So so just to tell you, like and I actually get my comment from my mom. From uh, you know, uh I mean my mom is my role model like in uh in life. She is the uh you know calmest person, and I think all that uh um I'm getting from from her. Uh just to get back to your comment about my uh uh you know the profile picture on that on on on the website, it's there's an interesting story to it. You know, I oh I was I you know uh when we started practice, uh and and especially with doctors, there is a thing about not to advertise yourself. You know, we actually even by HBCSA uh rules, you're not supposed to be advertising. But you know, it's 2025 now, and like you people are supposed to know about you, they're supposed to have inform uh information uh about you uh online. So you are so you you are allowed to have uh a website and tell people what you do, and you're not supposed to tell anyone that you are the best in your field, but like you are you you can um you can tell everyone what you do. So um for years I was uh uh you know meaning to uh do a website and and before COVID things were so busy, you're running around every day, and like you know, you have no time to do anything but work, work, work. Uh and then COVID happened and uh you know who breaks bone uh like you know while you're at home. So you're at home. Even you're not drinking. A lot of people weren't drinking. Exactly. So um you're sitting at home and like you know, you you you go for an odd case here and there, and you do like you know, you see a few patients here and there, and then I had lots of time. So I was like, okay, best time to do a website. So um a few months later, um I contacted a person to do a website for me, and then uh he started uh uh he sent someone with a camera to to do some pictures. Um you know I did um you know uh I went and did a few pictures and uh uh he sent me a few weeks later, he sent me the pictures and said you must choose pictures. I'm like looking at these pictures, I was like, uh, do I really want to choose from these? And then so I left it. Next thing he sent me a like a uh website, and then he put he chose his own pictures, and like and and ever since I was like so lazy to to go and choose a different one. And my my my couple of my friends always laugh at me and said you must change that profile picture. I was like, sure, I'll do this soon. But it uh you're you're right, it looks so intimidating and like so angry, and like but uh but that's that's where the picture story comes from. Okay. But I try I try to be um a little bit more friendly compared to when it comes to the No, but that's the funny thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 47:40

It can go both ways because a lot of patients want this super confident, you know, type of surgeon, and others might so you it it can go either way, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Clearly it's not d deterring patients from coming to you, so it's working.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

I think I you know what, I think confidence comes from uh uh being comfortable, you know, with what you do. Uh it's just um if you are, you know, if you love what you do, if you're comfortable in terms of what you do, um uh at the end of the day, I don't think you can sell yourself by uh self-promotion, you know. I think uh if you do what you do properly, uh it it comes across. I think and that's what I believe in. I don't b uh uh you know uh unfortunately or fortunately I don't do social media that much. I don't have a Instagram page about my website uh my about my uh you know my uh practice and yeah but you know it's it it it usually goes by word of mouth and yeah that's how I how I I've been doing it ever since.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Yeah. Before you you move on, just looking at this like from a holistic perspective, like Yash mentioned overseas, am I correct, that you cannot approach a specialist directly. You've gotta go through an intermediary.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

Yeah, in some places, you know, you've got to go through the GP and referral process and things.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

Yeah. So I mean I f I find it interesting that he came directly to you, and then you've gotta you had to kind of diagnose what was going on first and then surgically treat also at the same time. It's not very common that that happens um yeah, in South Africa. I don't I well, I don't think so. Uh or is that something that you do routinely, diagnose and also treat?

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Um actually uh it is quite common. Um there are uh some sp uh you know medical aids, for example, who who um have that rule that you have to be referred to a specialist. But um, you know, in South Africa we don't have that that that the general rule that it the the referral has to be coming from um a general practitioner or another colleague. So self-referrals make a huge portion of my my practice. Uh and these days, you know, again, with like back in the day, if you had to go to someone, you had to get referrals from someone and say, Do you know an orthopedic surgeon? But I think again, times are changing. You know, there are all these WhatsApp groups that you know people don't go to a GP and ask who should I go to. They they go to their, you know, their uh area of WhatsApp group and say, I need to go to an orthopedic surgeon or to a dentist or to, you know, a plastic surgeon, who do you recommend? And I think often they uh they take advice from from their friends, their family, their and so and as um you uh uh you know you're in practice for a number of years, you end up seeing you know your your pa your patients' family members, your patients' friends, your patients' cousins, your you know, the siblings, you know, and you that that's how you often s uh you know grow your practice. Um in terms of uh my patient base, there's a lot that comes from um general practitioners. I do foot and ankle surgery, so a lot of podiatrists refer to us, a lot of physiotherapists refer to us, and sometimes a lot of orthopedic surgeons refer to us as well because you know it becomes a super specialized field. So but it's a it's a mixed back.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

Yeah, so I'm batting his hand away because I just have a follow-up question with regards. Sorry, it's clinical. What was your confirmatory diagnosis like with his case if he's allowing us to remember?

SPEAKER_02 51:41

How do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 51:42

No, but what but what I'm getting at is I'm assuming you would have had to refer to a radiologist to do some form of CT or whatever it is, because you didn't come with all of this. You would have needed to go and get a report from a radiologist who knows maybe your sister.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

Yeah, like I think uh in terms of Yash's diagnosis. I'm happy for you to share it. Again, like you know, yeah, that's you know, not that uh not that he's a you know dentist, he's a lawyer worse than he's a patient. So so I don't I don't know if I want to. You've got full permission if you want me to but you know we uh you know we always when we s examine a patient as as uh you know any doctor or sin since she does an orthopedic surgeon, uh we um we do the history and uh we do the clinical examination and after that we do our special investigations and often we do an x-ray, you know, as a simple x-ray to give us a lot of information. And I still remember when I did I sent Yash for an x-ray, I was uh quite uh horrified looking at you know, we do see that sort of pathology all the time, but uh as he put it, you know, that was a ginormous lesion in wherever it was. Uh it was like quite striking.

SPEAKER_02 53:01

So um I might I might share images in the video like of uh my x-rays and stuff. Uh yeah. Uh that's cool. But I wanted to ask you a totally off-the-topic question now. When you operate, do you listen to music? Do you play music? Uh what do you listen to, if so?

SPEAKER_00 53:19

I I'm I'm smiling because like I like you know, my my main anaesthetist is I've been I essentially ask her every day of the week just to play music for me. And she she doesn't like to, she doesn't, she's not big into her music, but I love to listen to music when we um when we're operating. So you know, surgery has to be a you know uh like a very peaceful environment, you know. So you want to be at your best. Uh when it comes to foot and ankle surgery, a lot of operations are done sitting down. So we we we're sitting down, we are very relaxed, you know. Um often patients ask me, Doctor, do you have a good night's sleep? I'm like, yeah, absolutely. I I like I slept like a baby. Uh, you know, we uh you know we we we focus on uh on that case, and music actually makes me focus, you know. Um so yeah, if uh sometimes we listen to just the radio, one of my other anaesthetists always brings a speaker and he's got a nice playlist and he plays uh but we listen to some of the.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

Okay, so the anaesthetist is in charge of the music.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

He they they don't worry, they're not in charge of putting the patient to sleep. They're in charge of music number one and then putting the patient to sleep at number two on the phone. Then the iPad, playing in the iPad.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

That's very unique because normally it's the anaesthetists that don't really care about what's been playing. Yeah, they they just they're generally very apathetic about what's on uh and very judgmental.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Depends, depends, yeah, yeah. I think certain you especially some of the old school surgeons, they they uh some want absolute quiet. You can't you can't do anything in the theater. No, I think we are uh with us is a bit different, you know. So and and some surgeons choose their own playlist. So yeah, uh it has to be all about that old school surgeon, you know. It has to be like a classical music or this music. That's what I was gonna ask. Are you into hip hop or something like that? No, no, no, I'm not into hip-hop, but like, you know, I'm easy like in terms of any like calm and and how do you prepare yourself?

SPEAKER_02 55:32

Do you like have to mentally prepare yourself for surgery or it's just um ingrained in you?

SPEAKER_00 55:38

You know, I think I think after a while, you know, I've I've been in practice uh in actually in my private practice for over 10 years now. So um a lot of it becomes uh repetition, you know. So you still like focused, you are still focused and you do your uh, you know, you pay your full attention to every case, but uh you've been doing the same bunion surgery, you know, hundreds of times. So it doesn't really faze you anymore. So you have like more challenging cases sometimes and that you have to, you know, be more prepared about. I always read up on a lot of my, like, you know, if it's a surgery that I haven't done for maybe a couple of months, always read up on it beforehand. I always prepare myself. I tell the, you know, for example, the reps come that coming from the um, you know, uh bringing the sets or whatever else.

SPEAKER_02 56:30

What sets?

SPEAKER_00 56:31

Uh, you know, we have a lot of like, you know, implants in theater that, you know, they bring the plates and screws and stuff, so they need to be prepared as well. I I tell them to go read their surgical um, you know, uh technique beforehand. You need to be prepared. I'm always prepared.

SPEAKER_02 56:48

Do they give you any of the simulation kits like that you can practice on at home and stuff?

SPEAKER_00 56:52

Um I think it's uh yeah, yeah, uh we are past that stage now. You know, like yeah, yeah. I think if you are practicing at home, you you shouldn't really be doing that. Okay, okay. So yeah, but sometimes you do like, you know, like you know, watch that uh you know clip on the uh the surgical technique or whatever, you know, for a case that you haven't you might have not done for in a while. So because that's that's the interesting thing thing about my field, you know. Uh if you're doing hips and knee surgeries, you're essentially doing the same thing over and over again. When it comes to foot and ankle, there is a lot of you know uh variation. Okay. So uh you do one day you do this and the extra you do the the common things you do all the time, but there are some sometimes like like you know, when uh for example you came with your uh issue, it was very different to someone else's procedure.

SPEAKER_02 57:47

So, you know And how do you make sure you you're working on the right on the correct uh foot or angle?

SPEAKER_00 57:52

Oh yeah, that's that that is a real thing, you know. So s as you know, uh when patients come for surgery, they get asked uh uh at least 50 times about like is this the correct side? Is this the so uh we don't say rights are the wrong side, we say right and left. So um so um we we mark the the limb because it's uh you know mistakes can happen. Um you know, you have a busy day, you have like you know, six cases on your list, and uh, you know, days are busy, people can get busy, and so we we have uh you know things in place to make sure that uh you you know you always operate on the correct side. You know, we always mark the limb uh beforehand, we we prepare the limb, we we we have a what we call um uh uh uh the the basically the procedure is being double checked and surgical pose and you know the the anaesthetist usually checks the the sister checks, the surgeon checks, and so there are So you have systems. It's almost like a pre-flight checklist. 100%, yeah. And and you do that a good few times to make sure, you know, you know, that that mistakes should not happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

But I guess and and unless you're doing an amputation, the worst that could happen is you open up and then you're like, oh there's we're not finding anything yet, it's just close it up.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

Uh yeah, but that you then that's not gonna happen. No. And your patients are from Santin. Your patients are also Santin. Patient from Santin or from uh Limpopo or from Zimbabwe or from uh Iran, patient, every patient is important, and uh you you have no legs to stand on if you pun not intended. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:40

No, but the point I'm making is I I get it that all patients are equal, right? But surely, and you have to agree with me or disagree with me, in a upmarket area like Santon, you're gonna have patients that are asking you questions like Doc, did you sleep well last night? Or you know, things like that. You know, you you wouldn't get that question if you were in a rural area somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

I mean, there are like you know, at the end of the day, pathology is always different and the way you pati you you treat your patient, no matter where you where you are in the world, is always the same. But the questions sometimes can be a bit different. You know, uh you know, in private practice you always get the question, um, you know, Doc, how do I how am I gonna be uh flying with the plate and screws in my head? Can I get past the airport? And you may not get that, you know, at the at the state hospital. So but those are the like a little differences, but everything else is exactly the same. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

Yeah. And how what's like the longest procedure that you've done?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

My kids always ask me the same thing. You know, Dad, what's the longest procedure? I'm like, I don't remember to be honest. Like, you know, maybe maybe five, six hours, but I I I don't Non-stop for six hours. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's not bad. I mean, like, you know, there are some specialities, general surgeons who like you know, sometimes uh have to operate the whole day on one case. So uh I mean most of my my operations are uh uh you know actually there's a variety. There's operations that you do for half an hour, the operations you do for two to three hours. So uh hardly do anything that goes beyond that. Um from like 30 minutes to six hours is your Yeah, but there they is as I said, there are uh we do different procedures and you know different uh lengths of time, etc. Yeah. Do you have any like favorite procedures? Um favorite procedure. Uh probably the the the operations that I do more commonly, uh you know, things like uh you know echilly standard repairs, uh bunion operations, um but ankle fracture uh fixations, but uh I actually enjoy enjoy all my all my surgeries, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

Bunyan like removals, that's more soft tissue, am I correct? Is it or is it anything to do with it?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

No, it's uh it's a combination of bony and soft tissue work. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Alright. And then how many bones are there in the foot? So uh basically there are 28 bones in the foot. Um and uh yeah, if you look if you count those small ones as well. And uh now uh I see we're getting too dangerous uh feels like you're going to back new anatomy and I'm like gonna be like, oh I didn't prepare my anatomy. This is the anatomical part of the segment.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

Which is your favorite bone. I mean so Yak had a procedure on his um I don't know if you noticed he's wearing a glove.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

Yeah, yeah. I thought it was a fashion statement.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

Yeah, well, that's what you know he exactly. I mean he's he's had his uh I mean Yak you can talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

Yeah. I mean uh look I had uh frostbite about two years ago now. Um I had uh have an amputation done by Roger and Nicholson. I do you know him?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know of him. Yeah, I don't know him personally, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

Yeah. Um that's what I was saying. It'll be great to have you guys on the show and have a standoff, which is better, like foot or you've adopted a very serious tone all of a sudden, yeah. Oh really? Yeah. Okay, I'll try and be more lighthearted. Um yeah, but I had after I mean, I had no idea about any anatomy of the hand. I know the phalanges, that's and that's from friends, even not even from um from anatomy. But subsequent to my amputation, that's when I started knowing about joints, especially. Like my P especially PIP and um um my MCP joints. But it's so fascinating for me how a joint can make such a big difference to your quality of life. Absolutely. And and I see it with my foot because unfortunately, at the same time that I had my amputation, there was a um a teammate of mine that was climbing the same mountain. He had a foot um amputation. Well, part of parts of his joint of his foot. And it was so minimal, and I saw him like in recovery, and even now he's got a major limp that's happening, and he only lost about three to four toes on not even all, just like a partial amputation on his right foot.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

You know, uh even losing one finger or like half of a finger. Uh you know, are you often you often take things for granted, you know, when it comes to your anatomy or your body, and and you know, people uh really don't appreciate uh, you know, what what you know your God-given uh you know healthy body until you you don't have it anymore. Uh and and the same thing goes with like after surgery when you go into a caste or like one you don't have the one arm or one hand or one wrist to use, you know, for a few weeks. And then you really you see how you struggle for those few weeks and then you start appreciating it more.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:56

You've you've summed it up a hundred percent. I mean, after my surgery and I was at that caste, I appreciated mobility so much more. And I've said, like, how do how do people that live on their own and that have these conditions, how do they deal with this? Because I mean, just taking a shower, just going getting out of bed, small tiny things makes a huge difference. Um anyway, uh can we should we move on? I mean, uh what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:21

We're both sounding like uh uh people that have just come back from the war here. So So what do you do for fun, Doc?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:28

Oh yeah, um you know doctors are usually very one-dimensional people, like you know, that's what you you you hardly find doctors who want to retire because you don't they have you know all their lives they've been uh working and uh you often don't develop any anything to to do uh once you retire. So um and that's when it hits you in your mid forties that you know, wow, you know, life is going fast and uh all I've been doing is either. studying or working or uh doing calls or and then you start oh um uh maybe I should start living life a bit you know a bit more so in terms of uh fun I really uh first of all I really um enjoy spending time with my with my family I've got uh two boys uh 10 and 12 and see broken bones yet uh luckily not luckily not um yeah so I spent time uh like you know I really enjoy time with my uh spending time with my wife and and boys um and so whatever opportunity we we find we try to either go on holiday or get away or or just uh you know have f have fun at home but also um I enjoy uh my sports um I do a bit of running and uh I play pedal I used to I used to play soccer um uh when I was younger I actually ruptured my my ACL in my 20s and um I had it repaired and um after that I still went back to play soccer and my every time I was going for soccer my wife was like please don't rupture anything don't injure it do get don't get injured and I was like you know you go with so much fear to play soccer and like and then COVID happened and we stopped playing soccer and then paddles started. So we we often play paddle like twice a week. Who do you play with? With a bunch of friends yeah a bunch of uh my like you know uh uh friends some colleagues you know we uh you know uh you need you need four people so um you know yeah I'm I'm an admin of my my paddle group so it's my my responsibility to to find people so every Thursday every Sunday we go and religiously we play on pedal and I we see we actually we do see a lot of paddle injuries from that's what I wanted to get at like how how uh because I've heard from my physio yeah that practices that were otherwise you know just on par, um not orthopedics from a physio perspective, all these practices are in a boom now because of pedal. Yeah obviously subsequent referrals should be as a as a foot surgeon I see uh a lot of um Achilles injuries you know from from paddle these days uh it used to be we used to see a lot of Achilles injuries but it we they were mainly from soccer or um tennis but now it's uh majority are paddle related. But um you know you still you you have to live life you know so you still have to go and and uh you know try to avoid that drop shot uh you know you can have the point and I'm I'm happy to to give it away. But I still play my paddle and I do my um um you know my runs and I go for uh park runs um every week try to go every week and yeah the the uh try to try to um uh live a healthier life you know so compared to my compared to my twenties and thirties. Are all your friends medics or do you have like a diverse bunch of No no married to a doctor also no no my wife is not a doctor and but uh and I've got a uh uh you know you end up having a lot of medical friends but no I've got a mixed bag of friends you know actually these days a lot of most of my friends that I hang out with are non-medics.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:39

Okay. And do you you enjoy people? Like are you a people's person?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

I I I definitely am. Like you know I think when it comes to you you tell if you're a people's person or not if you uh have a choice between writing an email or making a phone call and it's always for me it's always making a phone call.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:57

Ah so like you know You've just confirmed that I'm not a people's person. There's one thing another thing that really stuck out with me. Like a few weeks ago I was at a park with my family I think it was uh Mother's Day or something right was also there. And then somebody s uh s from behind me says hey Yesh and I turn around and I see it's you right and then we speak and we greet and you ask me how's my ankle and all that stuff. And what the part that you don't know is afterwards I went to my sister because I introduced you to my sister who was a surgeon she was there. And I said you see most doctors I know would never go out of their way to greet a patient like in a random public space. And it it was like it was so cool. This guy he didn't have to because you I wouldn't have even known if you walked past and that told me that you are a people's person.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:42

Like you you know most I Yak I don't know if you agree with me but a lot of definitely I mean sometimes with me when I see I'm a walking in Woolworths and I see someone and it's it doesn't have to be a previously you know uh a d uh uncomfortable situation or interaction but just the the energy I don't want to expel that energy now especially to explain oh what am I doing here? I am I human. But also that day at the park I thought Yash was harassing you because I was I was on overwatch.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:11

You know what I it's funny that you mentioned because my my my wife always laughs at me and said every time we go to a mall you always find someone that you know and you always like end up going to the other side of the the you know the the mall and to greet them so like you know it's uh I I enjoy I enjoy friends. I enjoy um you know hanging out with with friends and you know always connecting with people. It's interesting we we we we were in Australia we my my wife's family live in Sydney so we were in Australia a few months ago we were walking um downtown Sydney and we um and also I'm like good with uh I'm bad with names but I'm good with recognizing faces. So in the middle of it was during um in New Year time and in the in the crowd in downtown I saw like a face that I was like I know this face I look I go I I I I go closer and looks like our um Olympic swimmer Tatiana Tatiana Smith and I was like I know that face and look and it's like that's Tatiana so I go back and say uh Tatiana like you know like can can can can uh my kids have a uh picture with you and she was I think she was very like shocked that like you know someone in the middle of this crowd I mean obviously she's an Olympic swimmer and you know everyone needs to recognize her but like you know I I think she was very surprised that someone uh saw her and then 10 minutes later I was walking and I saw one of my old classmates uh who emigrated to Australia like a few years ago and I was like like in like in a in a in a very random setting I saw two familiar faces. So I just uh you know it's sometimes you um you're good with those sort of things you recognize faces and obviously you enjoy communicating with them so it was clear to me that you're a people's person because there's a risk that comes with greeting a patient.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:20

Like I could have said hey doc you know what I've got this problem now it's been troubling me you know you're not you're not a random patient.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:27

You're a very dear friend.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:29

Okay that's cool. No no that's awesome. So look I it's I can almost I know the answer to this question obviously like you there's no regrets of you have your d having done medicine. You knew you wanted to do it you've always done it. But here's the question that we usually ask our guests uh on the show is that if somebody and now that you've mentioned you've got two boys 10 and 12 when they get to Matric or that time when they're gonna be figuring out what their career is and they come to you and say Dad uh you know I want to be a surgeon you know or I want to be a doctor you know what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:06

Again, like you know I think uh you know uh it it it happens a lot that you know your your kids uh either get really pushed by you that you that they need to be doing something or you you kind of deter them from doing that that thing. I uh think of myself as someone quite liberal and quite open-minded about it. If uh I would never push them to do to go after my career or to to go and do whatever I did and I'm not gonna say no you shouldn't do it either. So if they come to me and say you know we want to do what you did or we want to do it what my mom did and I would say with pleasure you must do it go and do it. If they they I think we as parents we need to guide them um and give them all the information and at the end of the day they need to make that decision on their own. And you you could have done something much easier uh you know shorter time like less effort um and uh better money better money and yeah but you know what if you love doing what you do uh I don't think you can do years and years and years and decades of whatever you're doing to to get there and I don't think that's it's it's still worth it. You know so do you think you'll ever retire? How long do you think you you go it's a lot of yeah we have that we have that discussion every every week with my anaestys as well like I say um yeah I tell her you know the day that you think that my s my hand starts shaking and you know I'm not I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing you must tell me because a lot of people don't have that self-realized real realization. So you know I yeah I mean I would eventually obviously have to retire if uh but you'll probably do it until you can't do it anymore. Yeah maybe just it's not that's not the right time. You know maybe you should you should have a set time and but I you know I'm I'm I'm happy to go until I'm 70 uh i if I'm alive by then but uh you know I'm I'm happy to go as long as I can yeah you're far too young but have you ever started thinking about a succession plan like how do autopods do you would you get in other locums at your practice? Um yeah I think I think I I like to think that I'm young for that but uh often what happens is that once you get a bit older you start uh you know mentoring other people so like like how my mentors mentored us you know in in in uh uh you know in foot and ankle surgery uh you always uh like to get a younger person, you start training them, you start showing them um you know uh the little bit of um the you know even though you you study these things, you know it's it's a lot of the practical stuff come with you know repetition and practice and it's always good to have some mentorship. So I would at some stage I would love to have a a mentor um as someone that I can mentor and like you know maybe hopefully they can take it you know take over from me. You know I think again uh here I need to maybe it's a place to uh to thank my two uh mentors you know uh Prof. Saragus and um Dr. Paolo Ferro who you know I did a fellowship with them you know and they essentially they were so kind uh to to pass that information and pass the knowledge and even to this day you know so many years later uh they're always available you know every time you need to discuss something with them they are there they are uh so uh generous in terms of you know you know there are you find people who with all that information with all that they don't want competition or but these guys have been so generous you know all these years. Did you say Prof. Saragas? Yeah okay he's at Linksfield yes yes yes he's at Linksfield and Dr. Farral and yeah they have been my mentors and you know I always uh I'm always thankful and I always will be thankful for for all they've done for me you know over the years. Slight change of topic I've seen you on a pedal uh advert I think for discovery it was you right yeah that was me that was me yeah that was completely bad luck do you know I was actually gonna mention this early on but I I detracted away from it um in that I once once uh one of my like six year old patients asked me if I'm friends with the tooth fairy and then I thought that sounds a little bit uh uh like corruption yeah but pedal being synonymous with ankle injuries and you being a successful ankle surgeon and now he tells me you're on a pedal uh advertising complete complete accident no one day we went to play and they had they had uh you know camera people filming and taking pictures so they asked uh if you mind having our uh you know pictures taken and we said no don't worry and like you know we thought it was going to be a couple of shots next thing the cameraman starts like filming us from the front and from the back and from between our legs and from the side and you know half an hour later like you know our entire game is being um uh filmed and uh we signed some some some forms we didn't know what they were you see doctors just sign things they don't even read yeah yeah and and two months later we see like you know if you're on the I was on the um some uh yeah Discovery thing about you know it was I think it was uh um CFO or CEO of uh like you know they were oh yes the CEO of Discovery I think they were trying to promote their paddle and there was me like you know shaking hands with my my my my one of my colleagues my friends yeah so yeah that was absolutely by by luck and by chance.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:39

That's why you need to read what you're signing right yeah no but also you intentionally told us you that you're the admin of your pedal group oh yeah yeah yeah we're trying to make this spicy oh no but but yeah so the comedy they made the surgeon the admin min administrator of the group there can't be any anaesthetist on that of them definitely because usually I would make it an anaesthetist they're good with admin for some reason. Okay cool. I mean is there anything else we didn't touch on that you think of or um can I ask you what can I ask you just one more question.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:10

Do you ever go back to Tehran? No unfortunately not no this is this is actually this is uh um a uh uh funny um this is my home you know so South Africa is my home uh I consider myself uh South African um a lot of a lot of my patients actually majority uh uh maybe maybe these days they they they they know me a lot more but uh at the beginning everyone who came in they said Doc can I ask you a question and I knew straight away what the question was going to be like you know where are you from so you know I know the the name and the accent and everything else is may may not sound South African and look South African but I am South African uh Persian South African so this is my home unfortunately no I don't I don't go uh visit uh for some other reasons but um the it was interesting the one time that I really felt South African was when World Cup sorry rugby world cups you know so I I had I had a huge form about being uh at the at the last World Cup so uh when Saudavia got to the final I said no I have to get there so I um I managed to find a ticket at last minute and I did a list on a Friday after the list I got there on the f on the on the flight and I went to to Paris. Got there on Saturday went for the World Cup game on um on um Saturday night uh in my full South African kit the French people not knowing a difference between a Persian South African and a real South African so I really felt like you know I was but no that's uh I I am you know I l I've lived in South Africa for 30 years. I really love this country um and you know I think that's one of those things that a lot of South Africans take South Africa for granted you know they they end up wanting to emigrate because of different uh reasons you know they we we can always find faults you know it's always uh easy to uh you know call this or that and and but you know I think South Africa is one of the most unique uh countries in the world with some of the best people uh you know some of the the best uh uh you know natural beauty uh uh some of the best food and fruit that you can find anywhere in the world. I've I'm quite well traveled. I we often go and visit different places but every time I come back to Ortambo, you know, uh from the friendliness of the custom people to to our um fellow South Africans and you know unless I really really have to I I would never say never but I would never immigrate anywhere else in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:21

But uh no that's just that's the one thing I wanted to actually I'm really pro South Africa and uh um yeah so uh no I this is my home yeah this is where I'm staying and I I I I yeah I will be a South African for the great and I mean with it's um I'm gonna say it's so nice to have you like uh I'm the welcome party yeah but it's there's a common perception with even our previous guests because we it's it's a theme that just keeps coming up that South Africa is really warm friendly. He once mentioned that Joe Bug has the best people but it seems to be um a common theme and I think from what I get from everyone that we've interviewed you know thus far is that everyone wants to actually try and be part of we all I mean everyone has problems all around the world but everyone that we've had on the show thus far wants to be a part of the solution not the problem.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:22

Yes and we I'm so glad you said what you just said because we are pro-South Africa also. It's one of the reasons why I named this why did I become a doctor South Africa a lot of people quite a few people have told me to drop the South Africa bit because it it limits me. But I genuinely am pro-South Africa and it's probably no coincidence that the people we are speaking to on the show are also pro-South Africans because it's very easy to get negative about the country if you're reading all sorts of things it just depends what you follow. But you you've said it you're a well traveled person, you've been all over the world there's no feeling like coming back home and you know seeing South Africans and hearing Afrikaans and all the other languages and even you know you go to India and then you realize oh our taxi drivers are so well behaved here when you watch the traffic in India, things like that. So yeah I I I want to end on that note because it's such a good note to end on um and really appreciate you taking time out of your day um you know weekends are for family and things and you're a busy surgeon. Truly appreciate it and thank you so much for sharing your story.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:25

Thank you so much for having me and yeah thank you for giving me the opportunity to uh to tell my story.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:33

It was a great story thanks so much thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:39

I feel like I want to show you my foot now because I go for it