SPEAKER_00 0:00

Alright, so welcome back everyone. I am north of the Yuxke River today in Pretoria, the capital. That's uh that's actually I didn't do that on purpose, but I'm at Capital Prostodontics. Yeah. Uh my next guest is I'll say it. You don't you you're gonna disagree, I don't know if you will, but one of the big big names in Prostodontics in South Africa, and maybe even globally, probably. I don't know too much about Prosto. Dr. Avi J. Jagadpal. Is it what is it? Avish or Avi or Avish. Avish, yeah. And Jagadpal, I said it right. That's correct.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Thanks for having me. This practice, by the way, I'm just so tempted. Um it's a brand new practice. I'm so tempted to just take this camera around and shoot B-roll for like half an hour and show off the practice to you guys. I'm like so proud on your behalf. I don't you know. I don't know why. But um it's a brand spanking. You just moved here recently, eh?

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Yeah, November.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

And um it's actually still in the process of being built up and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Yeah, I think just polishing touches, um, just making it prostodontist worthy.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yeah. It's beautiful. So if you're giving me permission afterwards, I like to just shoot some stuff. Maybe put some bureau um in the in the clip. And so if you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, just uh tune into the YouTube channel to see what it looks like because it's it's really amazing. It's really cool. I mean, what does a prostodontist actually do?

SPEAKER_03 1:25

So I I would assume most dentists who watch this would know, but we essentially are responsible for planning and execution of treatment plans in a way that would result in the hopefully long-term rehabilitation of a patient.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

And that's yeah, it's a lot of you know, dental jargon strung together, but essentially, if you want to water it down, it's we treatment plan for long-term outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

So you you approach that question with the the dental listener in mind, like a dentist listener. Yeah. There are I've got lawyers watching this show, I've got we've got students who don't know what they're deciding to do as a career watching. We've got old timers. So tell it to me like I'm fired. But I and and um it's a good excuse for me because as a dentist, I should probably know.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

But I actually like what's the day in the life of a prostodontist? Like, what do you do?

SPEAKER_03 2:20

So okay, to answer that question then, let let's let's talk about the different specialties of dentistry. And I I there is I have so much of respect for every single one of them.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

But what I valued the most and why I chose this path is because a prostodontist is the guy who puts the smile on your face at the end of it. Okay. We're the ones that put those teeth on. We have to figure out the ins and outs of how to put teeth in your mouth that look and function the way we want, and hopefully with a long-term success on that.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

So it's a specialist dentist, right? Yes. So you gotta be you've got to become a dentist first and then go through four or five years of specializing. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Get in firstly get into it and then do four or five years and ideally, if you're gonna get into the post at this point, you're gonna have to do some form of intermediate studies as well. So it's not just dentistry and then prostate. Okay. So you'd have to do some form of MSC or primaries or research or something to augment that because it's becoming a very competitive environment now to specialize. So you can't just get in with dentistry, or or it's very unlikely to get in with just dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

So when you were this, let's say the five-year-old Abby growing up, would you ever have seen yourself doing this?

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Or I I asked my my mom that. Yeah. Uh, what did I ever want to be when I was growing up? And she said I wanted to be a policeman. Okay. Um, but no, I never saw this. But I I did I I told you the the whole how I became a children.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah, yeah. We were so we were chatting at uh Mutual Friends Farewell. Yeah. And the thing is, it was a crowded environment. There were beers flying around, it was a farewell function, a lot of noise. It was also north of the UXK, which is out of my comfort zone because I've been um in in Jogo for a few years. Yeah. I just I remember it being a really cool story. Yeah. And I wanted you to tell it here, but I don't want you to get there now. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

So prior to that, I don't have much memories of growing up. I mean, we used to Where are you from? KZN. Yeah. Yeah. So I grew up in the North Coast. Yeah. Um What's the town? La Mercy. La Mercy. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

That's it. So that's near Tom Nart. You'd call it Tongard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Tom Lat La Mercy.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

Yeah. Yeah. So we grew up there in a small community, and I'm still close friends with so many of those people today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Um I'm also a Tongard boy, by the way. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. I was born in I was born in Victoria Hospital, dude. Yeah. Yeah. My my my my dad is a well-known attorney in Tonghat. Like I feel like everybody knows him. You can't, you know, he loves Tonga. But we I wouldn't be surprised if our parents They probably do know each other. Yeah. And like I I grew up there for a very short while, and then my my parents moved and then we went to Durban and I was in high school. I mean in primary school and high school in Durban. But I'm still I'm born and bred Tonga. I play cricket on the street at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

But that's how that's how our our youth was as well. It was um so I'm I'm one of three brothers. Okay. I'm the middle one. My elder brother is a doctor, my younger brother's an aeronautical engineer. Okay. So he's the smart one.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yes. Are you the black sheep then?

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Yes. Yeah. Um so my my youngest brother's actually the he's Wait, so you're the middle one. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So my youngest brother's in the UK now.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

Um what does he do? He's an aeronautical engineer. But now he works for British American Tobacco.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Okay, okay. But do you actually know what he does? Because I feel like engineers, you never know. We don't know. Like pick an easy career where, you know, if doctor dentists, we know what you do, right? Yeah. Basically. Yeah. He's like Chandler. Okay, yeah. Nobody knows what he does. Nobody knows what he does.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

He's like a transponster.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Okay, so that's the aeronautical engineer. Yeah. Yeah. The younger one. Yeah. And then the old one's a medical doctor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

And um, so we typical, you know, childhood growing up, you play cricket on the streets, football. Was cricket your thing or? Uh we used to play almost every sport. Yeah. And we m my mom and dad were sporty with us. So it was almost like a thing where we tried and did really well at everything that we tried.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

What were the parents? Are they doctors and also My mom is a housewife.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

My dad's a doctor. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

The GP in La Mercy also. No, in Phoenix. Okay. All right. So like a family doctor for years and years again.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

Yeah, yeah. I we I tried to digitize his books many years ago. It's impossible. Okay. It's he's got millions of files. It's not possible.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

But yeah, he's like a resident name in the area. And people come from far and wide to see him.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Obviously, Dr. Jagatpa also, right? Yeah. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

And um yeah, so we grew up um skateboarding, roller skating, um soccer, cricket, tennis, um, athletics. Um, so pretty much every sport we could we were offered at school, we would do it.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

You didn't want to be a doctor like the old man or no. We're getting ahead of ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Okay, yeah, go tell me. Um Yeah, so it I think just the the history of what followed in my childhood is what led to where I am today.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_03 7:27

So then um we'd moved into our well, now it's old, but back then it was our new house in Le Mercy in around 1990, 1991, I forget. Okay. And I was going down our we so we've got this massive pool and this beautiful slide that my dad had installed. And it was Christmas Eve, and I'm going down the slide, and as I'm going down, uh, I think I was going head first, but my younger brother jumps across and he hits the back of my head with his foot. Yeah. And then my face goes into the slide, and my one-one was avalsed and my two-one was displaced.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Okay, that's so that's like your upper in central incisors for the non-dentists are. Come on, I'll be aware of this. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

This is your front top front. As soon as they've been erupted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

How old are you at this stage?

SPEAKER_03 8:17

I think I was probably like six or seven. Yeah, somewhere around there. Yeah. They've just erupted. Yeah, I know some dentists.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

And yeah, so they were knocked out, and this was Christmas Eve. Yeah. So you're not gonna find a dentist. So um I remember getting out of the pool and just you know nothing there, nothing.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

You're feeling with your tongue and nothing is there. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

And the shock was you don't feel the pain. It's just it's more the what's happening right now.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

I don't have teeth anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Yeah. My tongue just got used to having these. Yeah. So um, yeah, so my brothers dived into the pool. Uh, the one found my my one-one. Yeah. The other we found was displaced. I think it was Palad Lee or something.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:02

And then my dad, because he was a medical doctor, he was friends with um Chuniratin and Jay Patel. Yes. Um, they used to refer together a lot.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

And so for the for the people watching, just who are they in the So they are general dentists in in KZN.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

Okay. Um they used to be our family dentists.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

And they knew my dad pretty well. And every time I see them today, they always ask about my dad.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

The one is isn't Kabir Rutten's is that no, not related, huh? Yeah. Oh.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Kabir Ratin's dad. Right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then Dylan Patel is um Jay Patel's son. So also dentist. Okay. Sure. Um, yeah, so um my dad phones up um Chuniratin and Jay Patel and is like, this is what happened. Can you guys help us out? And you know, to this day, these two men will walk on clouds for me. Yeah. They they they opened their practice at like 8 p.m. on Christmas Eve. They left their families behind. Yeah. And they got me in the chair, tears streaming down my face. They they start working. So they uh they did the emergency endo, they splintered, they did whatever they need to re-implanted. And then I woke up like a f well woke up. I was in the chair, I was awake, it was local.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

And then when I woke up from the chair, had some teeth in my mouth, and they patched me up. And I I will forever hold these men in high regard because I mean they've they went over and beyond the call of duty.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

That's so cool, eh?

SPEAKER_03 10:33

Yeah, and then but eventually I lost the the one-one. I think it was about a year later that it was terminal and the one-one needed to be extracted. And then um I went into ortho. I saw Siki Sing.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Right. Yes, for braces, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:54

Yeah. So back then I d uh implants weren't what they are today. You couldn't plan for it and insist. But implants were a thing those days. They were around, but not what they are now. Okay. They were very, very uh unreliable.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

I mean, I just gave a lecture now where I spoke about some of the older implants. And back then osteointegration was the first questionable thing. Okay. So when you put an implant in, you figure out the prosthetics after the osteointegration takes place.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Trevor Burrus, Jr. So that's after the implant integrates with the bone.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

So dumb it down for the lawyers watching. Come on. I'm allowed to say that because I'm a lawyer.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Yeah. So so back in those days, um implants had been l la for lack of a better word, invented.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

But um they hadn't been to the level of predictability that there is today.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Where in those days they would find whatever bone there is, stick the implant in, and if the implant heals and takes, then they figure out how the tooth's gonna look after that. Okay. Um but would you consider an implant at that age anyway? Or surprisingly enough, I actually have patients that we're treating right now who have had implants placed at 14 years old, at 13 years old. And there are complications, but they're manageable.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

All right.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

That being said, um, I wouldn't do it on a child at that age unless there's really, really special requirements. Okay. And there is a case or two that we're working up right now, okay, but also special requirements. All right.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

But coming back to the story is um Sikki Singh, he's like a well-known name in orthodontics. Like I think he's probably done braces for half of double.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

Maybe even more. Yeah. Um, so and and also Dialen Syndrome. They were partners back then.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Singh and Syndrome, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:39

Yeah. So um, so then Jay Patel referred me off to Sikki Singh, and he's like, okay, um, this one month's gone. We need you to close this gap.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

So that was probably the treatment, the the best treatment at that time. Is we're not gonna try to buy time, we're not gonna hold a space for nine years until an implant is possible. Because I don't even think it was part of common treatment planning then.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Um I mean, we're going back like 30 years. There's there's no chance that that was um anywhere on the general dentist treatment plan cards.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

So the best thing they could probably offer me at that time was let's close the gap with some Otto, and um then we can at least give him a normal childhood, um, which it was not.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Why so here's me in the reaching my puberty years with braces and a missing central incisor.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

In getting into high school.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Um this is a year after so this is end of primary school going into high school. Yeah. So by high school, I think I had my author on for, I don't know, maybe Sicky can confirm the records, but I would assume what felt like five years.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

But I don't know exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

So were you teased and all sorts of things?

SPEAKER_03 13:57

I mean, remember, first there's a central incisor, so a whole width of about eight mils that needs to be orthodontically closed. Yeah. And it doesn't happen overnight. Yeah. So they've got to gen like gradually close that gap up. By the way, this is a story I haven't actually told many people. There's a very small community of people that know this. And I've haven't really been comfortable telling this part of my life. It was only recently where, you know, having a drink with the friend, and then I realized and and they asked me, Do you have crowns on?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

And I was like, okay, so there's a story behind it.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

And then I started unpackaging it, and you know, I started to feel a bit emotional because it was the first time I was actually telling someone the whole um the whole story that I've tried to keep a secret for so long. Um so yeah, so then my high school career, we I still got braces. So going into the start of high school, I went into middle school, I went to Victoria.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Okay, Victoria. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

I went into uh Victoria Prayer.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

My mom was a teacher at Mitchford. I don't know if you know Mitchford. I knew I knew a few people from Mitchford.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

Yeah. Um but yeah, so eventually But are the kids mean there and things like that? At Victoria.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, or anyway.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

Yeah, kids are mean.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Kids are brutal, but I guess all the time, huh?

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Yeah. Kids are cruel. Um it's yeah, it's horrible. Did it like make you shy and reserved and all that sort of stuff? So look, my my mom always tried to counter that. So and it also feeds into who I am today because when we were young, my mom didn't want us to be afraid of people. I mean, she didn't want us to be afraid of interactions. Okay. So she sent my younger brother and I to like drama classes. Um That's great. Yeah. So whenever we would go out for dinner or lunch or whatever, she'd always give us the money and she'd give us the bill and she'd say, Go pay for this.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Because she wanted us to be comfortable in uncomfortable situations. That's so awesome. And yeah, so she wanted us to be able to speak to strangers. But I don't think she could prepare us for that kind of bullying and that kind of um, you know, just emotional trauma.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah, that's an unforeseen thing, like to lose a tooth and be walking around, you know, different to all the other kids.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

Yeah. So she has the first part of um the end of primary school with no central incisor, um, and then going on to the start of middle school where this thing is still coming together. And then when you're in high school, when you're supposed to be meeting girls and dating and starting to get girlfriends and things, my so well you would notice that my midline is slightly off. Right. So it's because they brought my two-one measily. Okay. So they crossed the midline of the two one and they tried to close the gap with the lateral incisor from the one-two. So they basically brought the two teeth on either side closer together and almost split the difference.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

But what happened is that it ended up tipping more than bodily movement. Okay. So then I ended up with my teeth sort of in like a chevron sort of shape.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Yes. I have to describe it for listeners. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

So there's like a space this shaped between like a triangular space between your two middle upper teeth. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

And the kids at school weren't as bad.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Um the problem was the kids that were more friends back home.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

So, like my brother's friends that we would play tennis with or play basketball with, they they had a nickname for me. They used to call me Jim.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

As in Jim Carrey.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

So like Dumb and Dumber was big back then. So when Jim Carrey had that chip to central incisor stuff.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Like kids will find the the worst type of things. Kids are rough, eh? And they'll be it'll be funny for them, but it'll be hurting you deep down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Yeah. And man, it it killed me. Yeah. And the nickname stuck. They called me that for years. They they called me Jim.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Um, based on that. And you know, that childhood trauma was it was it it was so deeply ingrained. And um then it when it came time to so so I I I sort of achieved scholastically. And that's what one does is when you shy away from those kind of things, you bury yourself in sports or your books. Um, which is a good thing because as you'd know, so I went to public school. Right. Um, but as you'd know, going to public school, especially in an area where you know people are trying to be in like gangs, and for you to stay on the straight and narrow is a very tricky um thing.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

It requires uh, you know, dedication yourself and also parental input and guidance.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Um so then although I don't it's probably not just the teeth that causes it. I think you probably had a natural inclination to be good at school anyway, just based on what your brothers are and your you know. Okay, yeah, fair enough. Yeah. Um but it played a big role. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

So um doing well in school, getting all A's and things.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

Yeah, but you know, I was I was good, but I was naughty.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 18:59

So I had a so the guy who was um my closest friend who was who sat next to me throughout high school was my cousin. Right. My first cousin.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah, that's lovely. I would love that.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Yeah. And and we were naughty together. We were and it was nice because he he doesn't he he never mocked me. You know, he never brought that sort of um inferiority complex out in me.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Um and I I think I I think I remember one really funny story where we would sit together in English class, and um right across the aisle from us was another guy, and he would always fall asleep in class. Okay. And then it was towards the end of class uh that he fell asleep, and he just before he did, he told my cousin and I to wake him up before we had to leave. Yeah. And we didn't, and we just walked the whole class woke woke up and left.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Deliberately left.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

Yeah, deliberately, and we we left him asleep there uh after school. Yeah, so we could be mean too, I guess. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so then um we did well at at high school. Yeah. And then when it was time to apply for careers, there were two things that I was really good at. Yeah one was art, so I used to draw uh a lot, I used to paint. Yeah. And the other was that I spent my entire childhood life in and out of dentist rooms. Okay. I was with Jay Patel, I was at Chuni Rathan, I was with Sikki Singh, I was with Harold Levenstein for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:29

Um who was that? In those days he used to be what we'd well, even today you don't have the recognition, but he would be what we would know as an endodontist.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Oh, like a root canal specialist. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

Okay. Um so yeah, so he was still making sure that the one-one had vitality. And when we were doing the root canals on the no, sorry, but the two one had vitality, and when we were trying to preserve the one-one, he was doing all the root canal work. Um, but I think he's long retired. I don't even know if he's still alive. He was old then.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Um so then my first choice on most of my university applications were dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

And second was uh architect.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Because of the art thing. Yeah. So what were your favorite subjects in school?

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Like art and and um no biology, science, maths. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

So you did S7 type of thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Man, I sucked at accounting. Yeah, yeah. I was watching Gunther's uh interview. Yeah, no, he was he was good. I I barely scraped by on accounting. Not not barely scraped, I did well.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

But I don't know. Okay, by your standards. No, I don't know how I did well.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

Because I don't think you can, but I sort of swatted my way through accounting.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

You know, accounting was a terrible thing because I I always tell my dad, I can't get it. He said, just don't overthink it. Yes. Because if you overthink it, that's when you get right. Yeah. It just never made sense.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

But it was I was actually bullied by a teacher. Okay. So when Um, when I was in Victoria, yeah, there was a teacher who, because of my name, Avish, he would call me Fish. Oh, okay. All right. Yeah. So then I never enjoyed accounting because he was my first accounting teacher and I would never pay attention in his class because he's teasing me. And so there's any teachers watching, just be careful.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Small things like that can have such a huge influence. Yeah. People don't realize it's true.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

Yeah. And then eventually I decided I'm just gonna stop paying attention and I'm not gonna listen to him until he addresses me by my real name.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

And eventually he did, but by then the ship had sailed. Yeah, yeah. The horses had already bolted, and I lost my way to accounting already.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Okay. But you still got an A in the trick, I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

No, I got a B. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

I got a B. Shame on you. Shame on you. Yeah. All right. Um then so then you So dentistry was first choice.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

First choice. That's interesting, eh? It was this. It was, and and and when I tell people this now, it's and it still gives me goosebumps when I do say it. It's that I wanted to be the hero in someone else's story.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

I wanted to be that person that changes someone else's lives. The way that that dial that Dylan syndrome, Siki Singh, Chuniratin, and Jay Patel, the way they changed my life. And I I felt that yeah, I mean, my dad was a doctor, he treated us for everything that we needed. But when I think the thing that I was most affected with was not something that could be fixed through medicine. It was something that it needed emotional repair.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

And I felt that my dentists sort of did that for me. They were my heroes in my life at that point. So it felt only natural that that's what I wanted to do because I wanted to do that for someone else.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

So um so that's why I applied for dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

So you you one of the I think you're one of the few that got in because you really wanted you did it because you really wanted to do it. Yeah. So it looks like there's there's a caveat to that or a button.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

No, it's it's going forward. I remember I remember someone uh asked me why did you want to do Prosto? It was one of the students at some, I think it was at Tikis when I because they don't really enjoy Prosto at Tikis the way I enjoy Prosto.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

Or or the way I used to enjoy it at Fitz. So they asked me why do you want to do Prosto? And I remember thinking back along this whole story of how I got here, and I, you know, I I felt that everything in my life has brought me to this, is that I was born to do this. Okay. Because it's so much ingrained in who I am.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

And you know, I was telling my wife last night, um dentistry became so part of so much a part of my life that my life is now dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

That is that's pretty cool. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

So yeah, so you apply everywhere for dentistry and architecture, except KZN because there wasn't dentistry, so that's the only place I applied for medicine. Because I went I in to a large degree, didn't want to leave home. I wanted to stay at home with my folks. Okay. So medicine would have been ideal. But um dentistry came through at Witz, and at that time, um that was the place to be. Um so I took it and I went to Witz.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Okay. You didn't you didn't like Western Cape and stuff, didn't come back to you and things like that? I don't even remember. Okay. I can't remember. Yeah, Witz was the place where everybody wanted to go, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Yeah, I I remember that I got a bursary for architecture.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

Um, but no man, it but it wasn't it wasn't for me. I think my first choice was was dentistry, and I got it and I was ready to go.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

And you're still using art to this day, but anyway. We'll get to Yeah, we'll get there. We'll get there. Um So how's how's what you is it the first time you like, obviously it's the first time you're leaving home.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Yeah. So I would I was the first person in my family's then, my immediate family and my friends from school to leave um to leave home and Oh the big brother did it in KZN. Yeah. Okay. So he did medicine in KZN. And um and then it was it was traumatic as well, but purely because I was in RES. Yeah. Um I was in RES. It was a culture shock.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

I mean, but the parents take you to Joe Burg, they drop you off your family there, presumably.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

No, no, no. No, no family. So you it's just like Cheers, Sainara.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

In three, six hours drive, drop you off. Drive there, drop everything off?

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Yeah. And uh tears from either.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

This guy. Well were you? Bro, this guy. Oh man, I was the so I I I grew up in a relatively sheltered household.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

Um we Me too. Yeah. So so we didn't I didn't need I didn't I've never owned a screwdriver. I never knew how to now I've got a whole range of drivers for implants. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But um, but yeah, I grew up in a sheltered household where I'd never had to survive on my own. Um and then suddenly I'm thrown into res where it's um a whole lot of people that I don't know. I have to make a whole lot of friends. Um and it it was different. Do your own uh washing and everything like that? Right. I've never even had to wash anything. Yeah. And now I've got to do the laundry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

You've got to do laundry, you've got to be responsible for your own food.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

My roommate complained to my mama after like the first Daniel Pele, if you're watching, he's a doctor in Canada. Yeah. Because I had a roommate in first year. Yeah. And I used to just take my clothes off, just throw them on the floor. I like that's how bad I was. Yeah. And then he had a word with my folks, and then they were like, okay, you need to sort this stuff up. Right. But yeah, I know exactly what you what it where you're coming from to where you're going. So Wits, your mom, your parents drop you off, you in tears, she's in tears. I'll never forget my mom was crying. Yeah. I was like, I can't wait for freedom. Yeah. In my mind, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

Yeah, I know. And then um, I think that first week, a week.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah. Wits O Week is notorious for being a cool week. Yeah. No man, it was rough.

SPEAKER_03 28:03

Yeah. Because it was. So here's someone that I I I've barely been to. So I went to house parties at school, yeah, but this was on another level. I mean, it was it was uh there was more alcohol than I've ever seen in my life. Right, right. And I was so on the back foot. Because remember, I was also quite reserved in high school. Yeah. I didn't do the stuff that everyone else was doing. Um maybe it was my own fault because I was trying to just shy away from these things. I didn't know. I wasn't popular with girls. I wasn't even popular with guy friends. You know, I I just yeah had my cousin and we did our thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Buried head in books, academia, sport.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Also, you're coming from a small town to big city, Joe Burg, Witz. Yeah. Right. Um So how was the first how was O Week like survived?

SPEAKER_03 29:00

And I was I think I was saved by the fact that they put our first aid course in O week.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

So I immediately got into the books, got into first aid. Oh, lovely, lovely. Yeah. And then um, so I started with that.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

And uh at the end of first aid, booked a flight. No, I booked a bus ticket and I shot on back home.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

I was like, I can't do this. I'm really yeah. I left my luggage, yeah. I just got it, I got a bus ticket, I went back home, and I told my folks, no, I can't do this. I can't. It's it's too it's too much to take in.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

Uh it was just overwhelming. And um so I spent the weekend at home. So I missed the last bit of a week, and then they put me on another bus and said, no, you you're going. Okay, so no pep talk, it's like you're going. I think there was. Yeah. I I think uh in all this time I've maybe romanticized it a bit. But um I eventually got on a bus and came back to Witz. And then we had our first meeting at Apollonia Dental Dental Theatre at the old uh dental school at Witz. And you know, that is where I met some of the closest friends in my life. To this day, my best mates. Uh Shayland Dulub, uh, who's a Max Fak in the West Rand, and Kopesh Lala, who's a dentist in um well in the south of Joeburg, in May in Maine.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Are they also they're not are they Durbanites or are they from Joe Burg, yeah?

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Uh one is from Lenz, one is from Lenz South.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Okay, so both uh technology. Yeah. So they took the the the Tomad boy under their wing, or how did it be? Not immediately.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Yeah. But um, so the person that I I clicked with first was Dylan Patel, Jay Patel's son.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

Because um I think his dad knew that I was gonna be there and my dad knew that he was gonna be there. So I I clicked with Dylan immediately. And then he introduced me to his friends because a lot of them from the same area uh or the same school were in the same class. Uh Sankeshin, Padyachi. Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

So his dad's superior now, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Yeah, so his dad is also a dentist from from Durban. Um so Dylan and Sankeshin were friends, and then there was Sheetal Premaj from our class, and a few other people that uh grew up in that circle in Durban ended up in our class. So I just sort of tried to get in with them. Um first year I did really well.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Oh really, really well. Um that's unique because usually first year is the thing that separates the, you know.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

But the thing is that I I carried through that same academic um sort of mantra with me is that I want to excel.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Okay. Yeah. So work ethic is there. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

So it I didn't go out partying with everyone. And you know, when we qualified and they showed like photos in our dental magazine of all of us through the years, I'm like, where was I when all of this was happening? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

And then it reminded me, oh no, I I know where I was. I was in my room. So if you and I were in the same class, you probably you probably never see it. And I think you'd probably be annoyed. I was like the opposite. Sounds like you and I are opposite. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Um because first you saw, you know, gave me flames.

SPEAKER_03 32:08

Like I so I I knew many, many people like that. My like my friend Lala, Kapesh Lala. Yeah. So I would see him on my way back to res. Right. So I used to live on main campus and men's res. Yeah. And I'm walking to my res and I'd pass this guy from from whatever lectures we had. Right. So I if we have a break, like a one-hour break or or a lunch break or something, I would go back to my room and I'd either nap or study. I'd pass Culpesh on the way, and he'd be drunk out of his mind. It's like, oh, Mr. Abby, come and have a. Hope he doesn't mind. I say that's fine. He doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

He doesn't. He's one of my closest. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. It's fine. He can sue he's sue you, not me.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Yeah, but no, he's he's my one of my closest mates.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Lovely, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

I know how families are so tight.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

He's so I would have been Kalpesh in the yeah, if we were together, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

Yeah, affectionately we know him as Luls.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

Um so like I'd I'd pass him on my way, and every Friday I without fail, this guy would be sitting there. They used to call it the aquatics. Right. It was where the aquatic club was. Yeah. Um so I'd walk past, he'd be drunk, yeah, I'd go to my room and I'd study on a Friday night.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Yeah. So instead of swimming like fish, they were drinking like fish.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

At the aquatic center. Yeah. Um So you're the model student, you're quite I'm I'm guessing at this point. First year. First year. Right?

SPEAKER_03 33:30

Second year, yeah, still rocking it. So I'm doing really well. Um and at this point, this is sort of where my career trajectory took a bit of a turn. So second year you start at Vitz, you start in the clinics. Okay. And second year. Yeah. That's quick, yeah. And um I can't remember if if you No, I I think you you start in the labs and then you observe in the clinics. Okay. And then at some point you start um you start treating a patient at the end of second year or the beginning of third year.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

But the point is you're seeing real life patients somehow.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

So we were the first year of the new curriculum and we were seeing real-life patients from first year. Oh, wow. Where yeah. So they would have us observe um finally a dentist doing extractions and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

So it was like you're doing proper dentistry from first year.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

Yeah. I think they got tired of people deciding at third year, I don't want to do this anymore.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Oh, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

But yeah, so we were part of the first year of the first five-year curriculum. And um and then in second year, we were in the Prostolab and Nikki Veras was there with us. Nikki Veras and the late Errol Levine. Yeah. And explain that for the viewers and the context of these. Nikki Veras is a prosthetist. I don't know if she's still at Fitz. Um last time I was there, which was a few years ago, she still was on a part-time basis. But Nikki Veras used to um teach us in the laboratories how to set up teeth for making dentures. And um so the the lab side, the patients, the the the side that the patients don't see. So when you take your impression and it goes off to a laboratory, so those procedures that get done, we were taught how to do that as well. And at some point, um Nikki Verz said one line, and I I I remember it I can still close my eyes and see her saying it to me, where she said, you know, you've got a real talent for this. Um and and it stuck with me.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

That's nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

Yeah. Yeah. And and I and I think that looking back, um, it's these little gems, these little moments, yeah, yeah. That that you just think back on where it's just someone just nudging you in the right direction. Right. And it's the right person at the right time, just giving you that little push to say, just try a little harder, or you're in the right direction, keep going. Yes. And and that was where it was with Nikki at that point. And she just, you know, you got a little talent for this. And that was enough for me. And we So I So I planted a seed, like almost. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

And this was now I'm sitting in the prosthetics lab and I'm doing this, and I'm like, huh, it looks pretty nice. Maybe I do have a talent for it.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

Because then I started to apply my art. Yes. And that's what I love about dentistry, is that being able to take my my hands and my fingers and mold and build and turn something from nothing is where it all came together for me.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Yeah. Because you can be super book smart at academically tops. When you start having to use your hands, that's when Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:41

Yeah. And I knew a few of those guys. Yeah. One of them, so one of my closest friends from first year, her name was Latifa Ganget. Uh, I remember she was excellent. Uh she was, she used to study with me. And um at the end of first year, she's like, I can't do dentistry, I have to do something else. And I think she went on to become a journalist.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

Um But yeah, so so like like you said, you can be brilliant at the books, but unless you have that that's that dexter that dexterity in your fingers and and and having a want for it, um, dentistry is not for you.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

So what was the turning point?

SPEAKER_03 37:17

So she this is it plants a seed that tells you I want to be duprosto. I want I just like doing this kind of manual stuff with my fingers. Right. And then we got into the clinics in third year. And um third year, third year was then very profound as well. So by the way, I set myself a light in third year. Like on fire. On fire, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So uh we were in the clinics at third year. Right. And so I think when they started us treating patients, I um I was paired with uh with my best friend at the time, uh, Dylan Patel. Yeah. I'm I'm sure he doesn't mind me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

But and the thing about Dylan, everyone knew it. He always came late.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

Always came late. Yeah. He he was and he lived like the closest to everyone. That's generally what happens, right? Yeah. But he was always late for session. And um, yeah, he so he he he eventually won an award in our class for like uh the guy who always came late to session. But um, so Dylan was my clinical partner, and so they paired you up uh to start seeing patients in pairs, which I still think to this day is a brilliant concept. So good. I don't think they do it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Oh, that's so good. I wish we had that.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

Yeah, because I mean, if you do a complete set of dentures, one could do the top, one couldn't do the bottom, but you just spar off each other. Um, so it was a brilliant thing at the time, and I really enjoyed it. Um but what ended up happening was we get to session and I'm alone because Dylan's late.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Ah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:53

Um, so I had to work a bit harder to catch up and all of that. And sometimes we didn't uh end up finishing in the session. Right. And at some point, Leanne Sykes was my supervisor. And you know, the same way that Nikki Verrez gave me that little nudge in the right direction, she's like, So Leanne Sykes at this point tells me, Um, you know, you're really good at this. Because now I felt that I had to work a little harder just to cover up. So when Dylan's not there, I've got to do a bit more.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

So like she's like, You're really good at this, but your partner's slowing you down. Yeah. So it's like, oh Dylan. So um, so I was like, okay. And so then we parted ways because then you start seeing patients on your own. Okay. And then um, that was when I set myself on fire. Yeah. So those um gas terminals at the chair side. Yeah. So I had mine on and I had my flame going. So I took my green stick, I warmed it up, which you shouldn't actually do. You should be putting it into a Hannah bath for any dental students. Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:57

But so I got my green stick on the flame and I'm applying it, and then I turn around and I'm applying it, applying it. And then my lab coat. Oh my goodness. It's my elbow is over the flame. And then the flames just start rising up, and you don't even feel it. Yeah. And then, yeah, so I set myself a light, threw my lab coat on the floor. Ugh.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

No, it was just part of the third year was lit. Third year was lit. Yeah. Okay. I was waiting for that the whole time. I couldn't wait.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

But third year, yeah, I let the ball slip a bit.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Oh, so why?

SPEAKER_03 40:26

Yeah. So so now I'm I'm getting a bit cocky. Okay. I'm you know, I'm thriving.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

And people are recognizing that you're good also, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Yeah. So, you know, by second year, I I knew I wanted to do something like this. And by third year, it was almost becoming cemented. Okay. That I want to do prostate. I want to be a prostheticist. And then I'm seeing, you know, I'm interacting with these people. I'm interacting with Leanne Sykes, I'm interacting with Hemantullah, Joseph Schumann, Dale Halles, Peter Owen, the greats of today. And, you know, at those points, you see the way these people change the lives of the patients. And don't get me wrong, I do not take anything away from any of the other specialties. I mean, Max Fack, the way these guys save lives is incredible. The the way that periodontists they they they measure in microns, their attention to detail is phenomenal. But what I noticed is that and the community denders? No comments.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

I had to throw it away with you.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

That's like a thing. Everybody has a dig at the community interest for some reason.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

So I just throwing that in there. Yeah. But you know, when when the prosthetist got involved, then you see the happiness in the patient's eyes. Okay. You see them light up. When you took that and maybe it was a bit biased because you're taking a set of dentures for a patient where they have no teeth and they're getting a whole set of teeth and like four or five appointments. But the way the patients lit up, you could see the enjoyment in their face, the the satisfaction, that that emotion coming back to them. Yes. And that resonated with me personally.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

Because there's something I could see in myself where I'm seeing people's lives being changed in a way that Yeah, and you you remember deep down inside as that kid growing up, you didn't have that central incisor.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Yeah. You knew what it felt like. Yeah. So you you actually like you're gaining something from giving.

SPEAKER_03 42:21

Yes. Right? Yeah. And you know, I I still when I do deliveries, yeah. To this day, I get emotional. I feel it. I f I get goosebumps when I do that. It's so nice to hear, man. Because it's it's every patient is different, but it's still the same it it it it takes this little piece in my heart where it's like you're doing it's actually fulfilling you. Yeah. Yeah. And so but also at the same time, in my third year, I finally decided I'm gonna get these teeth sorted out. Okay. So I go back down to J. Patel and it's like, let's put some crowns on these babies. Right. So it's like, okay, let's put some crowns on. So he put some back in those days, you do porcelain jacket crowns. Okay. We don't do those anymore, but he did some porcelain jacket crowns now on my 2-1 and my one-two to make them look like central incisors. So even though they were divergent in the roots, he made them look like central incisors. And now I get cocky. Because now I get confident.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 43:22

So now I've got teeth.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Ah, it's amazing what like, yeah, teeth can make such a difference to a person's life, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

Yeah. So now I've got teeth. Yeah. And I'm doing well.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:32

So now I'm like, okay, let's see now.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

Okay, now let's look for some girls. Let's start potting. So let's start potting. Let's start.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Hey, you were a late bloomer. You should have gotten all of this out in first year.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Man, by the time I was done with university, my liver was still fresh. So I went nuts after university. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

So anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:52

So yeah. So um so in third year I got some crowns done, and I remember I went to Lucien Naidu was a registrar back then. I think his In Canada or the states now. I don't know exactly. But um so I I no no, it wasn't Gluchneyne, it was Martin Oswald. Okay. He was a reg then and he's in Canada. And I went and I showed him check out my new crowns. It's like, oh, they're really good. Yeah, okay. So let's go out. And I got the stamp of approval from like one of the greatest registrars that I knew at the time. Yeah. So um, yeah, so now I'm going out trying to pick up girls, trying to meet people. And I remember it was Gen Path. Okay. Coming up to Gen Path. GenPath was a half course in bits. Okay. And there were two exams. The first was a mock exam, which was not compulsory. It was just a trial of what the final exam's going to be.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 44:43

So it's to get you accustomed to how that exam's going to go, how the marking is, how the questions will be set, etc. So I was like, I don't need this. Because it wasn't compulsory to attend. So a few friends and I, we decided, not these friends that I have now. So other friends, we decided, oh, we're not going to attend this mock exam. We're going to do other things. We went out, we played some pool and stuff. And then come the final exam. By the way, the night before the final exam, I was talking to this girl till like 4 a.m. All right. Now I've been trying to get with this girl for the last maybe I don't know, year and a bit. Yeah. It was one of the, it was just this girl. I was like this. Smitten. Yeah. I just, I I was crazy about this girl. And I'm trying to get, and this is the one night she chooses. She's going to talk to me. So night before Path exam, this girl is talking to me. And we're talking through the night up till 4 a.m. And I was like, okay, now I gotta go. And over the phone, or is this like cell phones were invented the phone? No, not cell phones. It was so you could phone um like between resors.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Oh, okay. So like a landline.

SPEAKER_03 45:57

Yeah. Wow. So um, so anyway. So until 4 a.m., this guy, this girl and I were talking, and uh I was like, you know what, I really, really, really need to go now. I need to sleep. So I rock up late for the path exam, and I'm looking at these questions. I'm like, what the hell is going on? Yeah. And I fail.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Wish I went for that mock.

SPEAKER_03 46:20

I wish I went. And so many questions were repeated from the mock.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Yeah, of course, of course. Right? Welcome to my world. That was just my normal world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

So I failed path. Yeah. And this is the first time I failed anything in my life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

In third year. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 46:34

Yeah. So now I'm I'm shaking because now I've got to write this suck. And then fortunately, you don't carry that suck. It's there's the June, July holidays, you come back and you write this up.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 46:47

So over that June and July holidays, I did not go home. I stayed at Res and I was going in daily, looking at slides, looking, going to the textbook. I knew that textbook in and out.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

And I nailed this suck. And I remember a friend of mine, I don't know if I could say his name because he wrote this up with me, but anyway. But we we nailed it together. We studied together the whole of June and July. We came through, we nailed it. So I was like, that's it. Last time. Last time I'm gonna let this ball slip. I still pursued this girl for a long time, but it never never transpired.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

Okay. She was the one that got away.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Failure wasn't even worth it.

SPEAKER_03 47:22

No, it was not. And that that's also a lesson worth taking. So um, so yeah, onto fourth year and fifth year, I started to develop a bit more into where I wanted to be in my in my life. I could I started spending time around. So I already knew I wanted to be a prosthetist by this point. Yeah. And I started spending time around those prostheticists that I could, you know, that I could see myself being like. Joseph Schmarman, he's late, but you know, he's touched so many lives. He's he's a god at the V in the Witz Hall. Okay. There are so many people who will show you photos of their time with Joseph Schmarman. It's like, you know, it's it's people who will show photos of Nelson Mandela. Here's my photo with Nelson Mandela.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Yeah. Real role models.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

Yeah. He touched so many people in a way that, you know, he he was not, he he he didn't want fame. He didn't want wealth. He just wanted to help. And he was specifically um dealing with maxillofacial prosthetics patients. Okay. So your oncology patients, your gunshot wounds, your congenital abnormalities. Yeah. And that's the that's the the life-giving part of prosthetics. That's the part that really touches you because you're taking a person who has nothing and you're giving them their world back.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Those are like some of the patients that have like half a face and don't have an eye, and you guys do that stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah. The prosthetic, the prosthesis is like an eye and a a face, and I've seen that. Am I right?

SPEAKER_03 48:54

Yeah. We were actually recently, we were in the BBC, the BBC did a documentary with us for a patient that we treated with that. Who's us? Um myself, Jamil Desai, um, I forget uh there's uh Dr. Rudwan, plastic surgeon. So it was uh quite a few of us that were on that team. Yeah. Um but there there was a a child that had some trauma done to him, and then we were upped in um to rehabilitate the child. Um but yeah, so that's part of our portfolio. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

Um so fourth and fifth year, you're surrounding yourself with people that are role models in the industry. You know I need to rub shoulders and absorb. It's absorbed.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

It's not even that. It's where I would normally do use my free time to study or hang out with my friends now. Now I'm going and doing elective time with these process honors. So I would go out of my I think it was after hours, I'd go to Dale Howe's practice. Sure. And I'd watch him in in and so you're a unique student. I mean, like students don't do this. In retrospect, I I don't know if I got it right. What do you mean? No, I think I I wouldn't look back and regret who I am and where it's put me today.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:04

But I think I it's not what student life is about.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:09

And and maybe I dis I discourage other people from taking the same path that I did. Because student life is when you experience your life. You're supposed to go out and go crazy. You're supposed to fail exams chasing after girls. You're supposed to um, you know, come drunk and hung over to your exams. And I wasn't. I set yourself a light. It seems like you got a small taste of it. I got a taste of it. You knew it wasn't for you. Yeah. That's fine. It's it's not that it wasn't for me. It was just that it I think that my trauma was too deep-rooted in me.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

And prosodonyx was was was sort of feeling, feeding that emotion. Okay. Like an escape almost. Not an escape. It was it was more, it was telling me that this is this is what I want to do, this is what I want to be. Okay. And it more less than an escape, more of a calling.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 51:01

And, you know, I would I I would go and spend time with Dale Howes at his practice. I would uh I would go and sit with Peter Owen in his in his office and but what have you what have you lost from not partying and not doing all this true?

SPEAKER_00 51:14

You haven't lost anything. You could still even do that now. Oh, you still do it.

SPEAKER_03 51:17

I still do it now.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:18

But yeah, so I and and maybe the that was the best part about it is that in my formative years, in the best time where I was absorbing the most information, I was spending it with the greats. Yeah. Yeah. Um I mean, Prof. Dulab, I cannot even tell how many times that man is. He's he's such a role model. He's like a father figure to so many people. Um his his his grasp of the information, his the way he nurtures you to look after the information that you're given.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

So he was at the University of Pretoria.

SPEAKER_03 51:52

Yeah, but he was he was first advits. Yeah, he was first advits. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

And I'm just checking like when, yeah, that the same prof doab that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 52:00

Yeah. So I mean it was it was big names back then. Yeah, him and Tulub. It was it was prof dup, it was Pasitza Muepula, it was Dale House, it was um, it was Mir Teng Tokwane, she was a reg back then. Um it was well, Joseph Schmarman, Peter Owen. Um so in fourth and fifth year, you going and doing all these things? Yeah, I'm spending time with the prosted honests, um, just trying to learn more. I would spend my free time with um well, with Martin Oswald as well. Um I would just sit in their postgrad rooms with them watching them treat their patients. Um Joseph Schmarman, he would teach me how to paint eyes, uh paint the iris of the eyes back then.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 52:40

And it and that was the beauty of it. And and funny thing, he was colorblind, but he could still get those colours beautifully. Um But that that was the thing.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

I mean, this is very important to hear about because like it's useful to know what shapes the person that is sitting here on the couch next to me now. Yeah. You know, nobody nobody knows about all these things happening. They just see, they'll probably see you on social media or presenting somewhere overseas. Yeah. And they uh but nobody knows all the backstory, all the years of work and the sacrifices, all that stuff that goes into it. All of this plays into it. Yeah. I'm not I'm not blowing smoke up your, you know, but no.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

Um yeah, I I did I look, I I did have a fair amount of fun. But I think it's it's with these two guys that have now become, I mean, they they've cemented in their position in my life. I mean, one of them is I do everything. Almost every weekend, I'm with Shaylin Dulub. He is the Max Fac in West Strand. He is the probably the most giving person. Actually, both of them. They are the most giving people I've ever met. Of their time and um resources and not not just that. It's it's the they they look after my family. I look after theirs. We are we are family. Okay. It's not it's not friends anymore.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:57

They are that those those kind of people that I I all I always used to refer to them as if I ever woke up naked in the streets of Hillbrow with no memory of how I got there, these are the two guys I'm phoning. Yeah. And I know both their cell numbers off by heart.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 54:12

Because if I'm ever in trouble, these are the guys you call.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Right.

SPEAKER_03 54:15

Um I don't know, is Hillbrow still dangerous?

SPEAKER_00 54:18

I think it, yeah, I think it's more dangerous than it was when you were. Oh yeah, that's for sure. Definitely. With PubCrawl, I went there once and somebody actually saved me from that. Some not I wasn't naked, but it wasn't a situation where Jimerson governed. I'll get him on the show one. Yeah. But anyway, um, so for I'm guessing then immediately after you finish uni, you obviously you do commsurve.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

Well, yeah, so you so uni, it it it became a bit more. I and I must, if any of my old classmates are watching, I must apologize.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Because I was they will be watching the shoes.

SPEAKER_03 54:55

Yeah, I was I was a major douche. Right. Because it When in fourth and final year.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 55:01

Unpack. So it came to a point where I felt I didn't even need to study for exams. Right. Um so I'd write an exam just from what I now knew.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Yeah. Um Although you were probably studying, but not in the traditional sense of sitting down. You were immersing yourself in the work.

SPEAKER_03 55:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:21

But but remember, there's there's many other subjects. Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's just cross stuff. Um but it it is So what you were this cocky, arrogant, like I'm too sharp type of guy. That's it. Yeah. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 55:32

And I remember I'm not gonna okay, so I'm not gonna say names at this point, but at some point, there were some dishonest people in our class. Okay. And they used to cheat a bit during the tests. Right. As always. And I I know it still goes on.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

Yeah. Because you like you lecture and things, right? Yeah. You you you deal with students.

SPEAKER_03 55:48

So fortunately I don't have to invigilate tests and all that anymore. But so there were there were some some dishonest students in our class and they used to cheat. And at at one point I remember. So we were on in, I don't know if it's still called the it used to be called the DGA, the Dental General Auditorium. I don't know what it is now, but it's uh the sort of raked auditorium at Vitz. And then I was sitting right at the back writing this test. And just the the foreshadowing of this is that a week before this, we do a mock test. Yeah. And in this mock test, um, we are shown several slides, some of which may or may not come out in the week later's test, which is going to be the official test. But we're not allowed to write anything. We're just supposed to sit there, go through all these slides, maybe have a discussion with the lecturer and all of that. And then we do the actual exam later, a week later. So we are in this actual exam now, and I'm at the back row and I'm writing this exam. And a few rows down, uh someone is sitting there with his textbook on his lap. So he's got his book on his lap. It's not an open book test. It's not an open book test. But in my mind, I'm thinking, we literally saw all of these slides a week ago. Yeah, yeah. How can you not know what's coming out? How could you not study things?

SPEAKER_00 57:10

See, you can't relate to that guy. I cannot relate.

SPEAKER_03 57:13

Because he was probably out chasing girls before. Yeah, yeah. So he's got a textbook on his on his lap.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:19

Well, no, no, no, no. He was copying from the guy, but they used to do that too. So they had textbooks on their lap, but he was copying from the guy next door. So the guy next door would like hold up his paper like this, and this guy would sit like this and he'd like read the next guy.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

You see, you had you knew your work so well, you had so much time to check all this other stuff happening that you're probably finished with your paper.

SPEAKER_03 57:37

It's hard to admit, it's hard to miss because there's this lecturer who's not even paying attention. He's just sitting and reading his book, yeah, but there's there's uh all this stuff happening around him. Yeah. Um so like I'm I'm getting peeved off now because I'm thinking everyone else spends like hours studying and prepping for this. So in the middle of this exam, man, I stand up and I I call out the student's name. I'm just like, hey, you.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Yeah. That this must have made you really popular.

SPEAKER_03 58:08

Oh man, I got death threats. Yeah. So like, hey, you, yeah, this guy. Yeah. Can't you do your own work? Stop copying the guy next door. And the lecturer just looks up in horror. And my two mates, Shaylin and Lala, they're sitting in front of these guys.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:25

So like after that, I just glance at them and I can see the shock and horror on their faces.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

Like watching a train smash in slow motion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:32

Yeah. And I'm like, oh my God, what did I just do?

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Okay, so you had immediate regret after that. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 58:38

Because like I could feel my blood pressure going up where I'm feeling like everyone studies for these tests and you are cheating. Yeah. So like I just, I couldn't, it like was just an explosion. Yeah. So I stood up and I was like, stop copying.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:52

And so there's the the lecturer just says, okay, everybody pens down, stop writing. And he takes these two guys' ex exam papers, and he's like, okay, we're gonna investigate this.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:03

So um it didn't end off bad for anyone. Okay. I they did threaten me.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:11

Um I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. But um they asked me if um I still have a problem with them rewriting the test and all that. I was like, no, I don't have a problem with them rewriting the test. They rewrote the test, everything was fine.

SPEAKER_00 59:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 59:24

Um but yes, I got very cocky towards the end. Okay. And um regrettably so. Right. I think that when I look back, uh that was not the the the proudest moment in my life because I'm into each his own. And I think I've I've come to a point where I realize that everyone's going through their own struggles and everyone's got their own battles to fight.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

And um, I think it's really great that you're saying this, you know, in hindsight, because it's nice. Yeah. I think it's a reflection.

SPEAKER_03 59:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Um You don't know what those guys are going through. Yeah. You don't know. And and eventually, if they're on the wrong path, they'll expose themselves somewhere along the line. Probably. Yeah. Sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:06

Yeah. Um Yeah. So that was that was dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

And then when I finished- Okay, so apart from invigilating exams in fourth and fifth year, yeah. You get through it fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:16

I got through fine. I got through fine. And and I took I took all of the prostodonics awards. There was also a Fred Hossack prize for the best clinical case. I took that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

Right. Um I'm not surprised about all of this, so you were topping.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:28

I took the all the restorative awards as well. So um so yeah, so prostodonics was already in my blood at that point. Yeah. It was something that um I knew I was going to do. And a few years later, when I looked back at our magazine for where like they took photos of us and they asked us a few uh questions at Vitts. And then I on my on my name, uh, it's asked there where do you see yourself in five years? And I said, lecturing back at Witz and um as a prosperonist.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:59

Okay. So um ComServe? Ooh, where's that? ComServe. ComServe was rough. Yeah. So ComServe, they um we were the first five-year class. Oh so in our year, there was already a ComServe class that was allocated to all the so the five and a half year class already occupied all the comserv posts.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:23

So now we are finishing and they don't have enough posts for everybody. So they had to figure out where they're gonna put all of us. So I got like third rounded before I knew where I was going.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

And I was allocated the I think it was the Ilembe district in Kaiseren. Right. Which includes Denga and everything up north that way. And um I was allocated a a a hospital called Montebello Hospital, which is in Dalton. Right. And I was not happy because there was no dentistry, anything there. So here's me coming from this glowing CV saying, I'm ready to do dentistry, and there has not been a dentist in that facility for over 50 years. There wasn't even a working chair.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:16

So one of the people who was allocated in the same district to Stanger Hospital uh didn't pass, and she had to repeat another six months. So I tried to get creative, and probably the first and only time in my life I tried, admittedly, I tried to bribe a government official.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

Oh my goodness. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

So I'm like phoning around Department of Health, and I was like, I need to get out of where I am, and I need to go to a hospital where there are resources so I can still do dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:49

So I set up this meeting with this government official at um, I wouldn't even say where.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

And I go up there with two very expensive bottles of wine in a nice gift case made out of leather, leather bound and everything. And I go there and I'm like, so this happened. This person didn't pass, and that post is available. And could you help me get into this post? And in no uncertain terms, he says, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Okay. Good on him. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:25

Yeah. So I walk out of there with my leather-bound bottle of wine as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:28

Oh, yeah, you you just went to speak to a guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:30

Yes. Yeah. Yes. So uh so it didn't work. And I had to go to Montebello hospital. All right. And um the chair didn't work. The chair went up and down, it didn't even recline. Uh, there was no suction. We had to dab all the blood with gauze. And just doing extractions. Only extractions. Yeah. Um, and I had this amazing assistant, uh, sister Anastasia. Um fun fact though. Um, the same post was occupied by Nayesh Naidu a year later. Okay. And that's also another fun fact is that out of this one school that the three of us attended, Nayesh Naidu, myself, and Ashana Haripasad, uh, all three of us are prosperists.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

Okay, so something in the water there. Something in the water. Yeah. Uh maybe my tea. Um yeah, so uh so in this But you must have been hating it, right? Like you specialist aspirations to So here's someone that's got this whole world of information that I'm ready to But you're making money, at least.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

First time in your life.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:37

Yeah. And there was a lot of money because they used to pay me for subsistence and traveling as well, which was like an hour away from home. And they didn't have accommodation for me, so they couldn't put me up. So they would pay me for traveling first, they would pay me deep rural allowance, and they would pay me. So you're traveling from from KZN from my parents' home. Okay, nice. So they were paying me quite well.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

Yeah. So you had more money than you needed. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

At that year. Yep. Um and uh Yeah, and that year just my everything I knew just started to disappear. And then I I decided I'm gonna I'm gonna start studying again.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:12

So when did this decision happen?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:14

Like I think six months in, I decided I'm gonna register for an MSc.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

Six months into ComSert. So are you still Yeah. All right. Yeah, you couldn't you couldn't wait.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:23

No. MSC is what masters of science and dentistry in prostronomics. Where? At VITS. Okay. So I I linked up with Peter Owen again, and um it's just to coursework and research. But um yeah, that took me like three or four years, and then I eventually didn't even finish it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

Yeah. I I just could give myself to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:45

Yeah. But but it it kept me busy in those first um in that part of my life. So I was studying anatomy, I was studying physiology when I was doing the primaries. Um Well, that's interesting. You don't seem like the type that doesn't finish what they start. Well, it's it's because of what came next. Tell me. So then after ComServe, I wasn't really doing much, but then I wanted to get into private practice. I was tired just doing extractions. By the way, I did assist in delivering many babies that year. And in ComServe at Ilembe District. Yeah. So the because I because there wasn't a a dental facility there for 50 plus years, no one knew that there was a dentist. So nobody would come in for dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:27

So I would work for like two or three hours, see maybe five or six patients sometimes. I think the most I ever saw in a day was 12.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:36

And then I'd go and just observe what the medical conserved dentist uh the medical conserves were doing. So I just observed them and assist them. So when you said extractions, you meant babies, huh? Extracting babies. And not teeth. Yeah. Sure. So yeah, so I assisted a few C-sections, a few natural deliveries.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

Well, don't tell the HPCS there. The scope problems there.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:56

Well, I was observing more than anything. Yeah, yeah. I was like a scrub nurse or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:01

Yeah, that's cool. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

Um so yeah, so so I was I was eager to get into private practice and get back into doing dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

And then Oh, so it wasn't like I want to go and specialize now immediately. No. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:14

No. Because I also knew that you so Peter Owen was still. That's Prof. Owen, right? Yeah. Yeah. So he's he as as great a man today as he was then. He's a mentor to anyone that needs it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:27

Everybody talks about that guy from Buttsy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:29

Yeah. Um he's he's a walking legend. I mean, I told him I want to be a prosthetic. And then so his whole thing is this is how you do it. And he told me, you need this many years of clinical experience before they'll take you seriously. So I knew I had to go into private practice and I had to start doing this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

So it's not like you just gave up on the dream or for you know, come serve, kill the dream.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:53

Yeah. You knew what you needed to do. Yes, there's a time frame. Right. And he told me to be considered seriously, you would need to do at least three or four years of clinical practice. Okay. Because they have to know that you can do this kind of problem solving by yourself. So um and I and I still believe that that's the case. Yeah. Uh it's ideal.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:11

And it also it makes sense because it would be strange to like be a specialist in dentistry when you haven't even done like the dentistry.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:18

But there's there's so many lessons you learn just from being in private practice. And people don't get it. They want to leave dentistry and go straight into into specializing. There's a huge void that you miss when you skip that part because you get to deepen your understanding of the different facets of dentistry. Because university just provides you with the foundation knowledge. What you gain after that is up to you. Yeah. And how you apply that is up to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:48

I mean, I was speaking to one of my senior colleagues, Raj Shratan from Dental Protection. Yeah. And I think if if I remember correctly, he said in the UK, at one stage, they would not allow you into a specialist post un unless you had done like 10 years or something of general work. I don't think it applies now, but it was something like a long period of before you were even taken in as a requirement.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:10

Yeah. Okay. So um yeah, so I I wanted to get into private practice. So I I sent my details around to a few people. Where in which area? In KZN. Okay. Um, and then one person in particular um gave me a job.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:28

And it was a medical aid practice. And I worked there for about, I don't know, six months or so. And I and I've told the story many times. So it wasn't a very ethical practice.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:41

Um so the guy that I worked for, he's late now, but he was committing a lot of medical aid fraud. Okay. And I wasn't comfortable in that situation. So here's me coming in from, you know, the guy who's invigilating exams in my final year. So this this sort of sort of ethical and moral fiber that's always pointing true north. Yeah. And now I'm working in a practice that's committing medical aid fraud. And I was not comfortable in that space. Um, and he also didn't treat his staff well.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:14

And um that was that was that was really not nice for me. And some of the the girls that worked there, they were there were lovely people. Not some, all of the girls that worked there were lovely people. Um one of the girls though, and I I I told this story when I opened up my practice at my old place, is um one of the girls that worked there, she really disliked him.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:39

Okay. I'll say her first name. Her first name was Natasha. All right. And every morning uh the guy would the the dentist would come in and he'd be like, Natasha, coffee. And then he'd go and what was her role in the practice? She was the assistant. Okay. So like a dental assistant. Yes, but she was straight out of high school. Okay. So you could just take anyone off the street in those days and just appoint them as an assistant. So he'd just walk in, Natasha, coffee. And then he'd go and do his thing. And then when patients come in, she must assist. And then this was a daily thing. But she he never treated any of them well. And there was one time he was having the the driveway redone and he had the girls go and move bricks around. It wasn't a nice thing. So I mean, I took back then I used to wear a white coat. So I took off my white coat. I went out and I just started helping the girls just carry the bricks, and I I felt bad for them. And um, so then as time went by, and in those months that I was at that practice, I got to know the girls a bit better. And um and then she says, Can I tell you a secret? It's like, okay, yeah, what's the secret? So she's like, every morning when he comes in and he says, Natasha coffee, I go to the toilet and I fill it from the toilet to get the water.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:56

Oh gosh. Oh goodness. That is yeah, that's That's why I always treat my staff. Oh yeah, because you don't want toilet water. Okay, well whatever motivates you, that's good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:07

Whatever whatever floats your boat. Yeah. Yeah, no, so but what what I've well, just looking back, it's like my stuff are part of what keeps the the practice afloat.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:17

And before I forget, because you said back then you used to wear a white coat. What do you wear now to work? Scrubs. Scrubs, okay. That's the thing. Everybody's wearing scrubs. But like this fancy looking one, not like baggy.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:28

No, no, mine is.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:29

Yours is probably like tailored and things. If I know you, come on. Look at this place. It doesn't look like it looks like you're gonna be wearing.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:35

I believe if you told me you wore a suit and saw a patient. I do sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:39

When I'm just doing consults. Right. Um But let's not get ahead of us. No, let's go back there.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:46

So there's six months you left that practice, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:49

There's actually a story as to why I wear suits. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:52

When I'm please can we get to that? Oh, let's do it now. Let's say now.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:55

Yeah. So when I was in f my final year, uh I was supposed to go on the Pillow Pepper train.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:00

And the day before I went.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:02

The Pillow Pepper train, for people who don't know, is like this train that goes all around the country and dental students for the fifth year go in. It's like a community service type of train where you see people from the area. You're taking health care to the people as opposed to them coming to the healthcare.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

Right?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:17

Yeah. So then I was supposed to go to the train on the Sunday, and then the Friday before I leave, the guys that were on the train they get back. Okay. And then they send a message to us and they're like, it's really cold where you're going. So get a heater, pack some blankets, pack water.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

Where were you going? Can you remember that it was? Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:35

But it was winter.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:37

And um So then the Saturday morning, I decide to go to the zone and buy a heater.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:43

Rosebank. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:45

On my way to the zone, I had a car accident. Okay. So I You're driving. I'm driving. Yeah. And I hit the owner of there's a restaurant. It used to be Mike's Kitchen.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:00

Uh at the corner of So in Parktown.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:03

It used to be like Oh yeah, that this place where all the VIT students go. Oh, not Vidz students, but people from Joburg. Yeah, have beers and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:09

Yeah, so there was the probably the last standing Mike's Kitchen in the country was probably there. Um so the owner of Mike's Kitchen, he was coming down Oxford, and I was going the other way towards the zone, and a taxi was stopped in the middle of the road, and I swerved to hit I swerved to hit that car, but I ended up on oncoming traffic and I hit this BMW head-on. I hit the steering wheel, I fractured my mandible. Oh my goodness. So I had a parasymphaseal fracture and a condyle fracture. And I ended up in Mill Park Hospital. And now I'm lying there in Middle Mull Park Hospital, and then in walks this guy wearing this suit. Yeah. Right? Black suit, I remember. White shirt, black suit, Italian shoes. Okay. Okay. In walks Jeff Curry. Okay. And this guy makes a statement. And he just he oozes this. Tell us who he is. Like who Jeff Curry is a maxillofacial surgeon at Mull Park.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:03

Oh, this is how Avi decided he wants to be a maxillofacial surgeon.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:07

And this is how I became a max rack. Yeah, so he walks in. So like this guy walks in and you just look at him and he commands presence when he walked in.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:16

Your fracture was reduced just on site. Just on site.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:19

It's like, wow. This guy commands this place. Yeah. It's like, so you're here, you need help. And this guy's surgeons, I tell you. Right? Yeah. And like you just look at him and he's like, this guy knows what he's doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:30

Yeah. God walked in. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:32

So like he patched me up, it was great. And and that's that was sort of like why I I love suits. I love wearing suits because it sort of just it finishes the product. Okay. That if you know what you it it doesn't mean it by any means. And I don't mean that someone that's not wearing a suit.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:47

No, no, of course. Yeah. But it's also it it's I told you we were chatting on WhatsApp yesterday. Yeah. And we were talking about what to wear. And I said, this is what I wear. But I said, dude, please wear the suit because it's so on brand for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:59

Yeah. Yeah. But but that's that's exactly the thing with the with the Nikki Veras and Leanne Sykes. It's the right people at the right time just planting that seed where it's it's just something that you want to emulate to be more than what you are.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:14

Um so that was when the suits came about. Okay. Uh where it just made me think, wow, when when I get to that level, I'm gonna be a suits guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:24

And uh makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:25

But it it's also so interesting to hear the story. Like you broke your jaw, and that what that's what made you a suit guy. Yeah in a car accident or the way to my passing Mike's kitchen.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

And by the way, when when I was so I was out of uni for a while because I was bedridden. Like I could I didn't go to uni for about six weeks. Fortunately, part of it was over the holidays. Um but these guys, Shilan and Lulz, they they picked up the slack for me. The any work that needed to be done, they'll either do it for me or they'll bring it to me. And um you had good people around you. I had a great, great group of friends. Um yeah, so back back to where were we?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:02

That's the the the fraudulent practice. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:04

Yeah, yeah. So I couldn't do that anymore. And I I couldn't I couldn't put my name onto files where I knew things were going bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:13

Um and I had to get out of it. And I realized the work I can do, the work I've been doing for years now, and I I I wanted to just do it. So I opened up my own practice. Okay. And this is one thing I don't recommend to to um young dentists today. Okay. Is I don't recommend opening your own practice six months, one year out of ComServe.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:37

Why?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:38

Because every young dentist needs good mentorship. Okay. They need to learn the ins and outs of dentistry, even if it's in a bad way, even if it's how a bad practice is run. The importance is you want to learn the things that dental school doesn't teach you.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:57

And I think that's why I'm such a poor businessman today. Okay. I'm a I I like to think I'm a good clinician, but from a business point of view, from a money point of view, from a definitely an accounting point of view, I suck.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:11

That's why I have people doing that.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:12

Okay, good. Because I was about to say it doesn't look like you're a bad business. Like it clearly business is working out.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:18

But I have to outsource it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:19

Yeah, you delegate to to the experts, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:23

But I suck at uh anything um regarding finance, regarding the operations, the admin that I have teams for now.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:35

But that's what I probably stood the best to learn by staying in practice. I get you. So I should have gone from that bad mentorship to a practice with good mentorship. And I I there was a a a time when I was offered a a locum job with a good mentor. I think whose name was Dr. Hassan or someone, in uh it was near the pavilion. I can't remember the practice. But it was a beautiful practice. Okay. And I should have taken up on it. I shouldn't, I should have taken him up on it. It was just I was already starting to plan my practice and I'd already started buying equipment, and I didn't I just wanted some locums to buy the time. And he says, I can offer you a full-time post. And I think that's one of my big regrets in my career is not taking on that full-time post to learn how he does it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:25

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Good advice. Good advice.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:28

So But how did it go? How did private practice go? When you opened up, it was good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:32

Uh I opened up, I was doing things I wanted to do. Uh in my dad's building in Phoenix.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:37

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:37

Um, so my dad has a medical center there. Yeah. And so I was just working there. Um and so Phoenix joke, uh, lots of gold slits and all that stuff. Not really. Man, the ti the amount of times I tried to report practitioners to the HP CSA. Yeah. I kid you not. So you can see this ethical thing, it doesn't leave me.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:56

Yeah, no, of course it is. I think it's an ingrained thing. It won't leave you. That's a good thing, hopefully.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:01

Yeah. Hopefully I I I I I like to think I get that from my dad. And I I think there are there are maybe four people that have this in my that I know in my life. It's my dad, he has this ethical strand that cannot break. It's my wife, she is ethically unwavering, and her dad, and her brother too.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:21

Um, they are people whose ethical and moral fibers are just unparalleled.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:27

Yeah, yeah. So um But um but back to the joke of the Phoenix joke. Yeah. The gold slit thing. People know not everybody knows Phoenix, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:37

It was hard to do good dentistry when everyone wants to come in for that kind of thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:43

And uh And is that what people came in to you for like to ask you to ask for it. So what do you say? No. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:50

You try to say no as much as you can. Um, but you know, it's like you don't do it, and then they go to the guy down the road, and then they come back for the cleaning and polishing, and they've already got it in their mouth. Yeah. And there were dentists who were I remember there was this one guy who he eventually got struck off the roll.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:07

Um, I don't know why, because it wasn't one of the complaints I laid.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:12

I laid many complaints against this guy. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:14

But um It's not easy in South Africa to get struck off the roll.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:18

Yeah, so you have to be really doing Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:20

And even in Den, like it's usually a suspension. People get suspended for a few years and come back.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:26

Which is why I'm not gonna mention his name.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:27

Yeah, yeah, don't.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:28

But yeah, but um, yeah, no, there were flyers going around where he'd say, like, bring your family in for a cleaning and get a free gold tooth or something. It was horrible. Yeah. And um I couldn't, I couldn't live in that environment. I couldn't thrive in that environment. And, you know, I knew I was destined for bigger things than that. And it's like I I hit a ceiling in private practice.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:55

What were you doing in private practice?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:57

What kind of thing? I was drilling, filling, crowns and bridges, I was um a lot of dentures and a lot of extractions. And I loved surgery. I I loved surgery. I was good at surgery. And medical aid practice. Yeah, it was medical aid practice. But and this we were talking about a bit earlier is that I wasn't a medical aid practice, but I I wanted to do good work. So I was buying like high-end materials. Oh, I was buying like I remember this. Yes. So I I I I didn't want to buy the cheap stuff. I wanted to buy the stuff that you don't get comebacks from. Yes. I mean, at at uni we were using Z250. Um so that was what I was most familiar with. So that's what I went and started using. We were using Rotry Endo at Vitz, so I was using ProTaper in private practice.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:42

Um Okay, so this is the part that explains well or confirms the thing you mentioned about the business side of things. So you were getting high-end materials but not charging commensurately and then screwing yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:55

Exactly. So I I wasn't making a lot of money because here I'm I'm offering good service, I'm offering good quality dentistry, and I'm busy, busy, I'm working till like 7 p.m. at night, but I'm not making a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:11

And and then at some point I so my personal life at this point was also going in one direction, private practice is going in one direction, and then the girl that I was dating at that point, we we we we broke up. Okay. And so that changed in my life, and then at practice I reached, I hit the ceiling. I just reached the ceiling and I couldn't grow anymore. I'm seeing the same patients day in, day out. I'm doing the same things. It's dentistry that I'm proud of, but I'm not proud of the the global picture. It doesn't sound like it's fulfilling you. That's the word. Yeah. It it there was no fulfill full fulfillment in it. Yeah. It was um I'm doing this now, but I I don't see it growing beyond these four walls. And there's no goosebump moments and stuff. It it actually didn't come until much later in my life that I get those now. Um yeah, so then I I've got a friend who's still a supervisor at uh Tikis and at Witz. To this day, Fatima Ghani, I owe so much to this girl. She was in my class undergrad as well. And um so she knew back from the Witz days that I wanted to do prosto.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:30

And so in 2009, she she sends me a message and she's like, hey dude, there's a prosta post that stickies. Why don't you apply? And I did the math, I'm like, yeah, okay, I've got the right amount of clinical experience. I've got my primaries, maybe it's time. So Prof. Dulub was head of department then. And I applied for the post, and uh I get shortlisted. Right. And when it was time for my interview, um I withdrew my application.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:01

Um, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:02

So I I withdrew my application. There was at that point, there was just too much of flux in my life. Right. I was dating a lot, I was traveling a lot, I'd actually worn a trip on the FTV yacht.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:13

Okay. So you're you're making up for campus days that you didn't go to Right. Okay. So you're drawling in in two shorts. In one word.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:20

In South African terms, I was drawing.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:21

Yeah, party. You're living a good life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:23

So it went, it was time and at this practice, also at this time as well, practice is so busy, and I'm doing more Crown and Bridge work, so I'm seeing more profit. So practice is doing well. Um, it's supporting my lifestyle. I'm traveling more. Yeah. Uh my brother and I are traveling, we're going out a lot. I made some friends and I'm going out with my friends a lot more. Um, I withdrew my application.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:47

Yeah, and nobody, if anybody was watching the first hour, they would be like, You'd you'd that this will never happen. Yeah. You withdraw.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:53

I withdraw. And then I say prof is prof prof is fuming. Right. So prof Dullab is like, if if you if you do this, you're done. Right. He's like, forget about prostor. This is it. Yeah. If you withdraw your application, don't bother trusting.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:08

Also, did you like pitch it to him? I'm thinking of withdrawing. No. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:11

I told him, Prof, I can't do it. I'm I it also it scared me now. Doing so I'm living with my folks again. I'm I've got an easy lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:20

I mean, if you're living with your folks, you don't have to pay rent, you don't have to pay a bond. Yeah. You just pay for your car and your drinks. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:27

Yeah. So so so non-Indians watching this might feel like, what? This guy's living with his folks? Is he like balling as a dent? But this is like a very it's an Indian thing. Yeah. It happens. Yeah. Like we know lots of people that at that age are still living with their parents. So it's not like I want to just pause and mention that. Yeah. There will be people with their eyebrows up.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:44

For anyone these days. I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend that as a positive.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:48

But it's a good point you make. You you you're in your comfort zone, you you in Durban there. You're reluctant to what? Move, move to Pretoria.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:56

Yeah. So and this isn't even Vitz or or Job where I knew it. Yeah. This is now Pretoria.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:00

North of the Yuxi.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:02

Like as uncomfortable as you feel. Yes, it's different. Pretoria is different. Yes. So now it's uh well historically Pretoria was always an Afrikaans medium university, and I didn't know if if it was stole at that point.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:18

It was the seat of apartheid, guys. It was Pretoria was hectic.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:22

But our people didn't come here.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:23

No, no. We we stayed away.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:26

We weren't allowed. Not that we didn't choose to come. Yeah. But I totally understand. And it also had this reputation of being like very stiff and military style and different. And so I was afraid again. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:38

So I was afraid of change. I was afraid to leave my comfort zone and all these other things happening at the same time. So much of flux.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:44

Yes, lots of factors lead you to saying I'm pulling out.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:47

Despite knowing being that fourth and fifth year student who's shadowing people in their practices and knowing it's for you. Trevor Burrus On the cusp of my dreams. Yes. I'm so glad that you're saying this. You know, it would sound like a no brainer. Got the post, I'm doing it. Yeah. There's other things at play. Life comes into play. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:04

And that's why, like, and and I I I don't mean anything towards any people who choose the alternative, where they choose to get married young, specialize young. It's it's a great way. And it's just sometimes, like you say, life happens and you've got to pivot. Yeah. You've got to change the plan and go on a different direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:21

So you pull out Professor Fuming, and then what happens? How do how do you fix this up now?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:25

So I I decide for myself that I'm going to do a whole lot of courses. And maybe I'm I'm so I'm not going to get to a specialist, but I'm going to do weekend courses and I'm going to build my general dentist portfolio to get that.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:39

So what you accepted that you're not going to be a specialist at this stage?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:42

I exp I accepted that I'm going to be a prostodentist.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:46

Yeah, yeah. But you're not going to have that title of specialist. Yes. So you reconcile yourself to this and you're like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:52

So I said prostodontist. No.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:55

This is amazing, man. This is amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:57

Yeah. So I decided I'm going to do a whole lot of weekend courses. I'm going to do every endo course there is, every implant course there is, because implants were now becoming mainstream, every restorative course there is. And I could name names that I mean, I was exposed to the ITI in private practice. And I remember ITI? The ITI is the International Team for Implantology.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:21

It is an internationally based organization at, I wouldn't say the forefront, but they they prioritize education in implant dentistry. So dissemination of evidence-based dentistry around the world. Okay. And um so at some point, someone invited me for a meeting for the ITI when I was in private practice. And I'm trying to now do all of these courses. So I said, okay, I'm going. And I'm on my way. I get lost on the way to the meeting, and I'm phoning the guy who invited me and he's not answering his phone. I turn around and I go home.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:55

I miss out on that opportunity to learn about this organization.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:58

So the first ever ITI meeting that I was invited for, I walked away from.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:03

I want to pause because you know why I'm so shocked to hear that you had accepted that you're not going to be specialist prostodontist at that stage. Yeah. It's because the UI know now, and I'm sure your colleagues and everything, they know that you are like, you're proudly a specialist prostodontist. Yeah. And I don't mean that in a negative like or understanding. It's like you really take it seriously. You are like part of that industry, one of the, you know, most involved people I probably I know as a specialist. So that's that's why I just wanted to take a moment to pause and say, that's why I'm surprised at this, to hear this at this stage of your life.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:40

It it it was that I think I was just too much in a comfort zone.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:44

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:44

Okay. And I thought, no, here's here's a mistake. And the mistake that I made. Okay. Is that I thought that by doing weekend courses, I can get to the same levels as my dreams. Okay. And today I know this to be the first thing from the truth. My biggest regret today is not taking that post in 2009.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:05

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:06

Not doing this for longer. Not being able to be in this role for a longer part of my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:12

I'm glad you said because I was gonna ask. So and I was thinking you're probably gonna say, yeah, it was the right thing for you to do and not take it.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:18

But so you openly, you know My biggest regret is that I am I'm I feel I was born to be a prosthetist. Yeah. And the fact that I didn't reach my dream sooner, that's on me. Okay. And I it's one of my big regrets.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:35

All right.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:35

So when is this now that um that you said? So this is now so I'm I'm single, I'm dating, I'm partying, I'm going out with my brothers, going out with my friends.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:45

And um yeah, so for about two years.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:49

And you're doing well financially also. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:51

World Cup comes through. Yeah. Oh, that was a 2010. That was a draw.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:54

That was a draw. Um that was peak South Africa.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:58

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:59

2010 was peak. That was the time to be single. Okay. That was the time to be single. Oh, it was a draw.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:04

Um Peak South Africa. Yeah. Yeah. It was We need to go back to 2010 in a few years' time or so um, yeah, man, it was there was no limitation to my life at that point. Right. I could go everywhere. I could do everything. It was and I had my brothers with me. Both my brothers were working, both of them were we were all living together. Or my I think my elder brother wasn't far away. He was married at the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:29

And they're quite a successful bunch of brothers, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:33

Yeah, and it we we were tight. And with my cousins as well, we just we went everywhere together, we and we looked after each other. So it was not like we were out doing reckless stuff. We were just safely having a good time. And um and at some point, man, it I hit the ceiling again. Right. It I was doing the courses, I just wasn't feeling that it was changing me. I felt that I could do more with my hands, um, but I didn't feel that I I wasn't growing here. Okay and that's looking back, the big difference between dentistry and specialist dentistry is that as a prosodonist, you're or as a specialist, you're you you gain depth of knowledge. You gain you expand the the amount of knowledge you know in that subject to a point that it's as a general dentist, you learn the surface and you learn the shortcuts, you learn it from guys who have figured out those shortcuts and works in most of their patients. And that's just surface. Okay. And you realize that. You realize that you use the same recipe for every patient, and that's what I was doing. Okay. So when I hit that ceiling, I realized I'm not changing much. I'm just doing different things, but I'm doing all of the same things.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:58

Okay. I get you.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:59

I get you. And and then it hit me again after two years. So at this point, um, so the the girl that separated that I separated from two years before that, I started dating her again. Okay. And then we were engaged. And then Fatima Ghani phones me up and she's like, hey dude, do you still want to do prostor?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:18

This is two years after you turned it down.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:21

So she's like, hey dude, yeah, there's a prostor post available. Do you still not want to do prostor? She's great though, for to see looking out for you here. Yeah. She's she's phenomenal like that. She she's always been someone to look after her friends.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:31

Because it's not like you were going and searching the papers and looking for vacancies and things like that. No, okay, good. It was it was amazing. She's clearly she saw something in you, obviously. Well, she knew that this is we were friends.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:41

We were good friends from the universe, from our old days at Vids. Yeah. And then she's like, dude, there's another prostor post available. Why don't you apply?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:49

And um, prof will never let me back in. Prof, prof, I met Prof at um at a congress that that year. Yeah. And I was like, Prof, I see there's another prostor post available. I want to apply. Okay. And he's like, Don't even talk to me. Prof. Prof. If you ever see this, you'd remember. Prof is like, nope, we're done.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:11

I hope you must share this with him and have a chance. I'll share it with him.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:14

So Prof. Nope, forget it. I was like, prof, I I really want to do this. And he's like, why do you want to do this? And I told him, I was like, you know, I'm I see, I see more in myself than what I'm doing. I I I want to do more, but more, more, more importantly, I want to know more. And that's the difference, is that specializing gives you the knowledge to enforce your decisions. Okay. Whereas weekend courses, it it gives you it gives you shortcuts to treat everybody with a new set of skills, but you don't know why. Okay. You just know how.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:51

And and that's actually famously what Prof Owen says. He says that undergrad is about teaching you how to do things. Postgrad and specializing is about teaching you why you do things. Um, and so I speak to Prof. Owen and he's like, huh, well, you know what? I'm not gonna help you. You do your own thing. You know where the advert is, apply. If you get an interview, if you get shortlisted, then we'll see. We'll see you when you get when you get there. So yeah, so I had zero supports from Prof.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:25

But probably I think deep down inside you had their support. Like they knew what they were doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:29

So Prof, I love I love Prof. Since undergrad days. He was, I think our class voted him our favorite lecturer. Okay. He was always, and that's something he just exudes this love for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:41

And it's it's hard. I think even though he may put up a brave front or a stern front sometimes, so like that time where he's like, don't even think about it. Deep down. Deep down he's a soft. Of course, of course. And and he he's like, put your name in. If it comes through, we'll see if you if you come out on the other end. So um I go for the interview and I I get the post. Right. And um so Shaylin and Lals and myself, we go out that night and we got to Cubana. I can't even remember where it was somewhere, and it was a fun night.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:18

But this is in in Pretoria.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:20

No, well I I I interviewed in Pretoria. But I went back to to meet these guys for Where is that? I think we were in Lane South.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:27

Oh, in Joelburg, okay, yeah, yeah.

unknown 1:37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:29

And yeah, we had a great night, and um then shortly after I I found out that I got post. And so this was I think around August-ish. And um I had to tie up my affairs and leave for Pretoria in December. Leave home again. You didn't cry this time. Well, this time I had someone with me, so I wasn't afraid.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:54

Oh, okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:55

So I was a little more um a little more comfortable with leaving home. But you know, there was there was a point. And and and I don't think I t I say this story. Yeah. I I keep this one to myself. But I think since we're we're unraveling everything, yeah. When I remember at one point though, where I was thinking, so we were engaged at that point, and and I was thinking to myself, okay, so now I've gotta get a house. I've got to um we've got to move out, gotta get a house, I've got to start figuring out my finances in a different way. And I remember I was in my shower, and I just had the shower beating down on my back, and I had my head against the tiles, my eyes closed, and I was just thinking, I need a change, I need a solution. And the week later, Fatima Ghani's message comes in.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:52

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:52

So it was sort of this like That's amazing, yeah. It was uh it was sort of like the answer to my prayer. Wow. It was just this moment where I was I was looking for an for an answer to my own.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:05

I'm getting goosebumps now hearing the story, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:07

So just I was figuring out how I'm gonna start surviving on my own. How am I going to start living a life with my wife, being on our own? And this message comes from Fatima saying, yeah, I just that's a that's a really cool story.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:23

Thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:24

Yeah, yeah. And um yeah, so then I get to Tikis to start my registrar.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:32

And it wasn't as bad as you thought it might be. Don't say no comment. It worked out.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:40

So here's where So when I get to Tikis, um let's tell a little story.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:46

Yeah, please.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:48

So let we're gonna backtrack a bit. Okay. And I'm gonna I'm gonna digress a little. So remember as much as you need to. Remember when I was single, right? And I was dating a bit. So I dated this girl um somewhere in between. And back then when when Facebook was was the big social media to be on, then when you are in a relationship, you mark yourself in a relationship. Yeah. When you are single, you set your status. Yeah, you set your status. Um when you're married, married, blah, blah, blah. So when I was dating um in that two-year gap after my first um application for red time, um I changed my relationship status to single. And in my DMs, I get this message from this uh dental student, single. Question mark, question mark, question mark. Yeah. All right. And I was like, yeah, single. So she's like, okay, you wanna get together sometime? And back then, you know, any girl that even looked my way, I was like, hey, you want to go out for coffee? Okay. So um, so I we so I go out for coffee with this girl. And we date a bit. Um, we go out a few times, and now I'm starting to see this as a potential relationship. I'm thinking, okay, this could work.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:12

Something serious.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:13

Something this could become something serious. And um and then after a few months of us going out a bit, I get a phone call from her. It was uh it was January somewhere. And I get a phone call from her, and she's crying on the phone. I was like, what's going on? Um, you know, we can talk. And like after she calms down, she like tells me, Um, my boyfriend just broke up with me. Like, uh No, I didn't. You must be thinking, no, I didn't. I was like, who? Uh what? Yeah. Boyfriend? And she's like, yeah, but it but it's okay. So now we can be together. Oh my goodness. Like, uh, yeah, no, no, it doesn't, it doesn't work like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:57

So um so that was just a small incident that that um that happened a few years before. But it actually comes back to haunt me. So when I get back to um to to Tucky's on my first week.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:12

When you get the post the second time and you're starting your first week in the case.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:15

Yeah, so now I'm starting at Tucky's as a reg in Prostodonics. Right. Suit on.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:20

Yeah, please. Don't tell me this woman is there or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:23

No, no. So she wasn't there. But but now I'm I'm suiting up first day. All right, but you won't suit for as a rich. I'm pulling a Jeff Curry now.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:31

Oh my goodness. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:33

So suit on, and I want to show up for the job that you know what what do they say? Dress for the job you you want, not the job you have.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:40

Yeah, exactly. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:41

So I'm now dressing people must be like, who is this guy? This douchey guy. So I show up suit day one, and um and the halls are empty. There's nobody there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:53

But after Well But Paul, I love the fact that you said this douchey guy, because it's like you own it. You know that people are gonna judge you for that, but you still do it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:01

Which is really, I take my head off to people.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:02

Like, I think at the time I don't realize how douchey I'm being.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:06

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:06

Yeah. And then when I look back, I was like, yeah, I know I was really.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:09

Because you and I both do things like publicly, like, you know, I've got this podcast and I do things, and you also, your face is sometimes all over Facebook for ITI adverts and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:19

You just don't click on my only phone. We both appreciate, yeah, funny. But we both appreciate that there are going to be people out there thinking, look at this douchey guy. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, go on. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:28

So you rock up with the suit. Rock up with the suit. And I I I go under the suit for as long as I can. Uh but but also, you know, a a large part of that is ingrained in Witz culture. Because at Vitz, when it used to be a thing where you must dress formally every day was formal shoes, formal pants, belt, shirt, tie. That was how you were that was the dress code.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:51

And um but don't blame Witz.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:53

You like the suit. You wanted to wear the suit.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:54

I I I think it maybe just tied some knots together.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:57

It it reaffirmed it then. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:59

So that's how I came to work every day was formal. Okay. Formal clothes, ties, formal shit. But just day one was suit. And then eventually um But you were telling the story now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:11

So um So it's not the woman that you meet, but it's please. This is Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:16

So so no, it's not the woman. The the the girl that I was dating was was not there. But I I ran into someone that I I knew from the past.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:26

And um I ran into Prof. Sykes. Okay. And she used to teach me at Vit. She was Dr. Sykes then. And I remember her.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:33

So I was like, The one who said, you know, you've got you've got talent.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:36

Exactly. She said that that I'm I'm really good at this. She recognized you? She that's what I thought. So she said she knows me from somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:44

I was like, uh, yeah, prof, you used to teach me. And actually there's a funny story. You you sort of got me leaning in this direction towards prostor. So I actually wanted to come and thank you for for just you know setting off that little spark in me. And she's like, no, that's not where I know you from. I was like, thanks for deflating my balloon. Yeah, but it's yeah. But it's okay. They see millions of students. Yeah. You can forgive them. Exactly. I mean, I I can barely remember all the students that have gone through my uh So why does she recognize you? So she she says, No, I know you from somewhere else. I was like, uh, okay, prof, where do you know me from? And she's like, Do you know this person? And she mentioned someone's name. I was like, no. She's like, uh yes, that's where I know you from. It's like, okay, prof, please unpackage this. And she's like, okay, well, this guy that I know came to me and showed me your photos. It's like, why would some random guy show you my photos? And she's like, because he used to say that his girlfriend is cheating on him with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:51

And then the penny dropped.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:53

That Oh my, he's the other guy. He's the other guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:56

Who happens to know Prof. Sykes. Well, yeah, so he happened to know Prof Sykes. It was such a small world that this girl that I was dating, and I had no idea, I had no idea that she had a boyfriend. Yeah. But this girl that I was dating, um, yes, and and the boyfriend was knew Prof. Sykes. My goodness. So like he would go to Prof. This is the guy who's cheating. Oh my goodness. Oh my god, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:25

I showed clanky snazzy with my suit. Look at this player. This player is with me now. Right. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:32

It's it set us it.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:33

So I was already like In her mind, you just this like Man. Have you ever seen a brown person?

SPEAKER_03 1:46:38

Yeah, have you ever seen this brown person turn red? Um, that's brilliant. Such a thing as I'm like this homewrecker. Yes, home wrecker, exactly. That's the word I was looking at. Um, but it worked out. Yeah, I think I don't know what what m what ended up happening with them.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:53

I mean for you, it you and Prof.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:55

Yes, and we're still we're still very close.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:58

Um but we eventually had a a good laugh. Brilliant story how small this world is.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:03

Very yeah, sometimes too small.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:05

Um and so The moral of the story is get off Facebook, guys.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:09

Come on, Facebook is just so large.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:11

It's so 1990. I'm there though, don't worry. I'm old enough to be back on. Yeah. So um So I'm guessing the Reg Post, you've you breezed through it. It was brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:20

And Reg Post is when it all came together.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:24

So it was this sudden realization of this is where I'm meant to be. Uh-huh. It was this. I remember my first um journal discussion, the first time I had to present, was um it was a journal that I had I had researched. Uh so for journal discussion, those that don't know, is that you have to um find an article that you think that the panel of specialists and other registrars who will then judge you based on your choice of article and your critique of the evidence. Um that's what journal club is about. So I had to present my journal article and I'd selected one on um on the accuracy of dental implant impressions. Okay. So it was sort of a review paper, which a review paper is a consolidation of all the evidence that puts it together to put out a statement to say that all the evidence is pointing in this direction, therefore the conclusion is this.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:30

And that was my first um my first journal discussion, my first presentation that I ever gave as a registrar.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:38

First of many, because you've got to do many over there. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:40

Yes. You've got to do them regularly. You've got to do these, you've got to do seminars, which is a much bigger, bigger animal. Um but my first journal discussion is is sort of where it all just came cascading. So remember, I told you my mom sent us suspicion drama classes. She used to send us to pay for bills. She wanted for us, for my younger brother and I, who have become quite the orator. So both of us are in public spaces and we speak to people a lot and we give lectures a lot. The two of us that went to drama classes, it's it's because we we we develop these skills to be comfortable in uncomfortable situations. And so many people have stage fright. So many people are afraid of crowds. They are brilliant clinicians, brilliant academics, but they just can't stand up in front of a and this was something that my mom has instilled in me since the time I was five years old. Such a good thing. Yeah. And, you know, and that's where it all started to come together. And and then when I was at um at Witz in undergrad, because we were the first class, we did this thing called problem based learning. Okay. And problem based learning was where they put you into groups and you have to discuss. Certain scenarios where let's assume that you're doing anatomy at one point. They will, I remember the first one we ever did was titled What Has Toko Found.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:09

And it was about this little girl named Toko who found these teeth out in the bush and she she didn't know what teeth they were. And then you have to talk about anatomy of human teeth. Was it human teeth? Was it animal teeth? Um and it it sort of ties in with the the subjects that you're doing at the same time. So you're doing anatomy, you're doing physiology. So you look at the wear patterns, you're doing um so you have to identify if it's a human tooth, if it's an an an animal tooth, and all of these things. So you sort of tie it all together, and then at the end, your group gives a PowerPoint presentation on that case. Yeah, I would pick you to go, please. But but that's sort of the the thing, is that I PowerPoint for me is a second language because I'd been doing it since first year dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:00

I heard that your presentations are top-notch. I haven't actually seen one yet. Uh maybe I have one or two. But people talk about your presentations. I try. I try. Um So yeah, the seminar, is this wherever you were in the zone, the first internal discussion?

SPEAKER_03 1:51:14

And no, so so then that was just being able to do these presentations. And then I remember there was a Dr. Mladanova, I don't know if she's still at Fitz, but she taught us radiology. And she in in her in her Eastern European accent, she would tell us, she would, she would teach us how to do mind maps.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:31

All right. And mind maps, the whole class got it wrong on how to do a mind map. And she taught us this way of mapping your thoughts out and drawing these mind maps of all of your thoughts at the same time. And like I said, in this in Red's time, it all just came cascading together in a way that was almost it was written in the stars for me because it just clicked. It just clicked. My first presentation, I took so instead of doing a PowerPoint presentation, I took the whiteboard and a marker and I just mind mapped this whole journal article out, this review paper, and every single article they cited, I wrote out every single one of those authors, their dates, I discussed their articles, and it was this moment where I was in the zone. I was in the zone. I knew this is it, this is what I'm cut out for. I was born to do this. And then when they asked, uh, so at the end of your discussion, they the panel has to then give their fit feedback and critique and what they think would be- That's an intimidating space, right? It is because now there's people who've been doing this for decades already, and you are here on your first day, and you have to now take a hammering from everyone that knows everything about this subject that you've only set one foot in. A toe in. Yeah, not even. You can just get a whole of it in the air. Yeah. And I remember Dirk Herbst was my supervisor. He was the consultant there, and he and I, we know each other really well today. Um, and he said, You've already impressed me enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:05

Lovely.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:06

And he had no comment. And I was like, I felt humbled. I felt that's awesome. I felt I felt I felt that. I felt I'm home. I felt this is where I belong. I'm doing now the work I'm I've always dreamt of.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:19

So cool, man. You you're one of very few people that can say that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:22

Yeah. Yeah. And everything from that point on, I mean, going on to then taking that and building it into seminars, into full-on lectures for students for for our registration purposes, um it became something I enjoyed because it took all of these talents I'd built up over the years. It's my artistic appreciation for things, it's identifying the difference in colors, identifying how things are, they look more aesthetic versus all the academics I've gained in, you know, studying over the years, my appreciation for anatomy, physiology, uh, dentistry, prosthetics. I'm finally able to tie it all together in a way that makes the most sense to me. And Red's time for me was uh one of some of the best times in my life. Amazing. I I've made um incredible friends, connections, mentors. Yeah just from and I I've seen the world differently since becoming a registrar. It's you don't see things the same way anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:28

Because you know why registrar time has a reputation for being something that drains and kills people. It breaks you down, changes personalities and yeah, it it it breaks you down.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:38

You didn't have that feeling or I felt that it fed me.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:41

Oh, that's uh that's so lovely, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:43

It it it was it was fulfilling. Yeah. And and I I cannot uh shame, I I actually um well I'll I'll get to this later. But so in my house, we got we got very lucky when we moved to Pretoria.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:56

So I don't know that this woman had her house on the market for a long time. I don't know what the circumstances were. I think there was uh talks of a divorce or something, but her house was on the market for a long time and she she hadn't couldn't find a buyer. So the estate agents like lowball her and see if you can just get away with it. And we actually our our offer got accepted. So we got a really nice house at a at a relatively lower market price. Right. And it's a it's a nice, it's a four-story house, but on the ground floor is like the garage and what was a sort of servants' quarters, it had an ensuite, bathroom, and all of that. And then you go up a flight of stairs, and then that's the kitchen. There's a winter lounge, um, there's another lounge and the pantries and all that. You go upstairs, there's um a guest bathroom, master bedroom, ensuite, walk-in closet, you go up another set of stairs, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:52

But on that ground floor, that old servants' quarters that they had, we turned that into a study.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:58

And we called it the dungeon.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:00

Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:56:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:01

So that dungeon was that every time I had a deadline, my wife would lock me in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:07

All right. So she would only unlock it, so it was time-based. Okay. So no phone. There's my laptop, all my textbooks, my journal articles, which we would print. So I couldn't I couldn't read journal articles from a screen at that point. I I just couldn't get used to it. I was still very analog.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:24

Yeah, yeah. Um It's much easier to read from paper. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:27

So I always printed out my journal articles. So now I don't need the internet for for that. So I'm not, you know, scrolling reels on Insta. I'm not scrolling Facebook. I'm just work focused in the zone. So I cannot um take away my wife's role in my position. Oh, yeah. Because she I mean, she we couldn't even have guests over. Her family would not come to visit. And if they came to visit, or even my family, if anyone came to visit, she would make sure the TV is on lowest volume. They can barely hear the TV. Everyone is quiet. Everyone's walking on eggshells because I'm downstairs doing a seminar, studying for an exam, working on something or the other. So it was So you had the Yeah, it was proper edge time also.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:10

It wasn't like you were just breezing through it. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:12

I'm glad to hear this because make no mistake, red's time is it's crippling. Yeah. It will destroy you. People I've been on the other end.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:20

I saw I've been on your wife's side of things, living with somebody else.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:23

You know, and relationships suffer. People get divorced in red's time. Yeah. It's it's so taxing on a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:29

Yeah, I was shocked because I heard these stories, yeah, but seeing it firsthand, it's like it's scary.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:35

Right. Yeah. Um because there's there's one person that's taking the the entire relationship is revolving around one person. And it's like 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:47

Yeah, no exaggeration. Like so people watching this that are not specialists or think you're specializing, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:52

Yeah. Yeah. It is crazy. You've got to live and breathe. And it's not just you, it's your spouse or your partner that has to live and breathe that with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:00

Yeah, and you won't be going to family events and you'll be missing nice things that are happening for at least four years of your life.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:08

Yes. And um, yeah, so she'd lock me in the dungeon and I would get to work, and I wouldn't I would only be unlocked when it was time to eat or time to sleep.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:18

Yeah. And that's a good way to keep you away. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:22

Uh which was which was pretty good because I'm a hard guy to live with. So um brilliant. Yeah. So obviously worked out and everything went well there.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:33

Yeah, I think um Any interesting stories or what let's what what happens next?

SPEAKER_03 1:58:37

In Reg Time. Yeah. In Reg Time, you know, I made the best of friends. I mean, Raj Dulub, he he was always like a bigger brother to me. Yeah. So going into Regtime, I think there was maybe three patients that I treated with implants before becoming a registrar in prostodontics. Uh if Dassendra Naido's ever watching, he's in, I think it's New Zealand, Australia right now. Um he used to do my surgery for me. So he would place my implants and I would and he would also teach me how to restore the crowns. Okay. My first implant crown I ever delivered. I I I don't even know. So it was a southern external hex implant in a premolar site. I think it was a 1-4 site. And so he he took he placed the implant for me, and then he taught me how to take an impression. And he's like, Okay, I'm gonna leave the components with you. When the crown comes in, you put the crown in, you tighten this, 32 newton centimeters, don't exceed this marker on this torque wrench, and then you close it up, you put in, well, then we used cotton wool, we didn't use plumice tape. Okay. So um you pack in some cotton wool and then you fill it up with composite, adjust the bites, and everything should be fine. So that was, I remember the first implant case I did. Work comes from the lab. I follow to the T what he told me. Deliver the crown, patient's on his way. I phoned, I phoned Das and I told him, by the way, he he's one of the guys who organized my bachelor party for me as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:12

But uh so I don't know if you probably know these guys. Um, my old friends from Durban, Das, Megan Naidu, uh Kay Moodley. The name's ring a bell, yeah. Yeah, so all these guys from from Durban, they're they they're all um great guys. But um, I was talking to Megan just recently. Uh so at the Sala Congress, I'm probably gonna go and see them again. Um so um sorry, Kay Govander. K. Govender. Okay. Um, but yeah, uh oh, and Kessen would be as well. All right. I got the two guys mixed up. So yeah, so they were they were great guys. So anyway, so Das is I phoned Das up. I'm like, everything went well, uh delivered the crown, but then I got the spare screw with me. He says, uh what spare screw? The one I said, the one that comes in the packet. Said um what screw did you use to deliver the crown? It's like the one that came with the lab work. It's like, you mean the brass screw? So for those that don't know implantology, you do not use a brass screw. That is a laboratory screw. It is a non-sterile, it is a um it will break. It's not designed to withstand biting forces. So I was like, I didn't know I'm supposed to swap the screws out. He said, Yeah, the one in the packet is the sterile screw that you have to swap out. So um I remember that case was my first one. So then I had to call the patient back like as soon as I found out.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:41

And then I had to drill the whole thing out, take out the screw, put the new screw in, and tell the patient this was my first one, blah, blah, blah. But going into Redge time then, I'd only done maybe three implants in my career. Yeah. And now we have to live, work, breathe implants. We're discussing implants every day, and I know this much.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:02

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:03

So I threw myself into the deep end. So I told Raj, Raj, every implant case that's in for a complication, send it my way. Okay. So I asked Raj first to teach me a few things because he'd been doing good private practice in uh using implants and all of that. He'd been doing advanced uh uh restorative dentistry for a long time. Okay. So Raj taught me a few things. He taught me how to do things right, and then I said, Okay, now I'm gonna go into the deep end. And every single patient that came in for a complication, I took the patient on. So it wasn't part of my portfolio, yeah, but it was patients that I wanted to get my hands wet. I wanted to it was a steep learning curve, and I wanted to climb that curve as a curve as fast as I could. So I took on every case that walked in the door.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:50

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:51

And I I I tried to climb that curve really quickly.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:54

As if the normal stuff wasn't enough. You wanted to just give yourself more.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:58

Yeah. But I knew because I was on a back foot. So I knew Raj is starting because he knew so much more than me.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:04

Oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:04

And I knew that to get to the level that I need to be at, I need to do more work. So um, yeah, so Raj, he's always been like a bigger brother to me. And he's someone that I could always go to for any advice. Even now, we supervise together on on Wednesday mornings. Okay. If I ever need a second opinion on something, I always go to him. I was like, Raj, just have a look at this for me. Um so yeah, so I made some of my closest friends there, and you know, that that was also where I was again introduced to the ITI. Right. And so during Rage time. Yeah. So we were forced to join the ITI through Andre van Zel. Right. So Prof. Andre van Zel is uh he's a periodontist down in Hermannis.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:46

Oh, he's in uh Hermanus, okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:47

Yeah. So he used to be the head of Perio at Turkeys.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:49

Yeah, he had long wavy hair.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:51

He looked like a He looked like Bull Knight the Science guy.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:53

To me, he looked like a bit like Robert Ritt. Um not Robert Ritt, but what are these Hollywood people? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:58

He looked like Bull Knight the Science guy in in um Underworld when they dressed him up like a vampire with long hair. Oh, okay. I don't know. I always thought and he always like this like stern, but he in in a good looking way.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:10

Yeah, I felt he was a handsome guy.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:11

He looked like Hollywood. Yeah, always had this like long wavy hair. So anyway, so Prof. Fun Zell, he insisted. Well, first Prof. Dulab arranged for us to um to attend his ITI course that he held as a compulsory event for all of his registrars.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:30

And so he there was there was this diploma that was run out of UP, um, and Andre Fon Zell was the was the coordinator for that.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:39

And Prof. Fun Zell had o arranged with him to take us on to attend his course for free. Okay. No, not for free. I think we played like we paid like a nominal charge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:49

Um But can you explain like how the periodontists and the prostodontists interface in this implant?

SPEAKER_03 2:04:55

So so in implant yeah, in implantology, um there's the surgical side and there's the restorative side. Yeah. The surgical side is placing that titanium screw into the bone.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:07

Yeah. Explain it for my lawyer viewers. So Because I what look I if I think of implant, I just think it's this fake tooth that goes into your mouth, into the bone.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:16

Right. So when you lose a tooth, the bone undergoes changes. So the bone shrinks. And sometimes there's enough bone to retain an implant, and sometimes there's not enough bone. And if there's not enough bone, then you've got to then add bone to it. Okay. Or you come up with another plan.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:36

Right.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:36

But in most cases, most cases where you can get the implant in, then you drill a hole in the bone. Okay. And you take the sterile titanium screw that will then be inserted into the hole.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:51

And it'll take about three months for the bone to turn over and heal around this implant.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:56

Screw. So it's like a big looking screw thing.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:58

Yeah. Yeah. But it it's it's sort of biocompatible. Yeah. So the body doesn't reject it.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:03

And it gives us a platform on the inside. So there's a screw channel inside this implant that we can then screw components to on top to make it look like a tooth.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:14

Um So the periods do what and the prostors do what in that So the Pyrios and maxillofacial surgeons and general dentists can place implants in the mouth. And placing implants means? Means cutting the gum, opening the gum up, drilling the hole in the bone, and then placing the implant inside.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:33

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:34

And then they cover it up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:35

So it's not the tooth. The tooth is not there, the tooth-looking thing.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:38

Yeah. The tooth part is separate. Yeah. Now restorative dentists or prostodontists can build the tooth on top of that.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:46

Now that's where you come in.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:47

Well, yes, but you know, a lot of people will ask why do I need to go to a prostodontist for this?

SPEAKER_00 2:06:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:53

As opposed to As to a general dentist where it's significantly cheaper and sometimes a lot quicker.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:59

The difference is all in the planning. Okay. So with us, it's we and I'm I'm not saying that general dentists are not as good in terms of execution. There are some brilliant general dentists out there. Um but what we do differs in a way that we don't see just the whole. Okay. Just that one tooth that's missing. We treat the patient in a more holistic manner. So we look at different things. We look at the bite, we look at um the general harmony of the face. We look at um we look at the the the mechanics of that implant, more than just a screw holding a tooth. Yeah. We look at the optimal way for this tooth to deliver the biting force into the implant to dissipate those forces in a way that it's going to last the longest with the least complications over time.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:53

I get you.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:54

Whereas without that kind of planning, you may just put in the implant, put in the crown, and you may have a crown where the screw loosens every few months or years, or the porcelain chips often, or you know, or the crown breaks, or you break the implant, or you've lost bone around the implant.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:09

Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_03 2:08:09

So so these are the things where we we sort of try to mitigate our risk to be as low as possible.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:16

Okay. Okay. Well, thanks for that. So and how I got to this question of you giving me the implantology for dummies is I was saying, okay, so explain to me why Prof. Van Zale is telling Prof Dulab to get his people to join ITI. And what is ITI?

SPEAKER_03 2:08:30

So the ITI, like I said earlier, it's it's like this international um organization that uh uses education to empower people to perform dental implantology in their practices. So it uses generations worth of of studies, of evidence. And they put out consensus reports, they put out guidelines on how we should be treating patients in implantology. Okay. And that's everything from your single-tooth implant to dentures clicking onto implants to a full set of teeth screwed down onto implants. Okay. So it's only for specialists, though. No. It's for every everyone. It's even for it can be any general dentist, any specialist. It doesn't even have to be a prostodontist or a periodontist or a max vac. I even know an orthodontics registrar who's still in our ITI study club.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:09:23

So the ITI just basically facilitates the discussion. They allow you to have the discussion about implants, about treatment planning, about how to give your patient better outcomes, more than just the guesswork of implant crown, goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:39

And you, and as far as I know, you're one of the big shots in the ITI or whatnot. What's your role there?

SPEAKER_03 2:09:44

Yeah, because it resonates with me. So what do you do there? So well, let this go back to Andre Fun Zale. Yeah, please, yeah, please. So Andre Fanzale insisted that if we do his course, we need to become ITI members. Okay. Okay. And now I had a bit of a problem with it at first. I was like, why do I need to join an organization just to do this course that I'm paying for anyway?

SPEAKER_00 2:10:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:10:04

In retrospect, that was one of the silliest things I could have ever thought. Okay. Because once you do the course and once you are introduced to the wealth of knowledge the ITI gives you access to, it's a no-brainer. Okay. And any dentist that wants to that even does one implant a month, one implant a year, can benefit from this. It is a relatively small membership fee. I think if you're under 35, the membership fee is like 100 euro or something, which goes up to like 1,800 rad or something. But it it ranges depending on your role. If you are a like I'm an ITI fellow, which is a different ranking. It's like when your peers acknowledge you as a fellow, you get that status.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:56

No, you can't just apply it and get it.

SPEAKER_03 2:10:57

No. Yeah. So most people are just members. Okay. And there's nominal membership fees for those. But access to information, that's what it's about. It's once you become a member, you get access to this treasure trove of generations worth of information. I mean, you you'd have to get special, you'd have to get a special registration with the university to access their libraries, and they may may or may not give you all the articles that you need if you want to research a topic. Okay. The ITI consolidates all of that information for you. They put out consensus statements, they put out all of the information in a way that anything that you want to know is laid out in an organized fashion. And they even run courses. In South Africa, there's a course run uh by uh Jean von Lierop and Sunei um what's I Molder von Staden. Yes, yes. And uh Rudwan Hafaji, the the ITI curriculum. That's a course for for entry level dentists. Howard Gluckman runs a course, but you know the IT. ITI course itself, it's it's opening these young dentists to this treasure trove of information and it's teaching them how to uh access the information in a way that sequentially gives you this journey to implantology. Okay. So that's what the ITI was. And at that point, it was just now being able to access it. And then you realize that all of the information you need to know about implants is within this organization. They they have textbooks where they would give you the their consensus statements, they would give you guidelines on how to treat patients. Then they have major conferences where they discuss it. And then once you see that amount of wealth of information, that's what identified with me. So now Andre Fonseel just opened my eyes to what and it took me the blink of an eye to just see that this is valuable, yeah. This is I believe in what they believe.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:13:01

And then when we were doing that period module, um at one point I had to give a perio seminar. And I so as part of your registration time, you spend time in the um in the period department and you have to give seminars in their department. Okay. And when I presented, there was there were two visiting um specialists that were attending. Christiane Foster and Paul Funzel. Okay. They were two prosted onists from Cape Town. And they both they both sat in on my seminar.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:13:39

And maybe they saw something at that point, but then I linked up with them after at the hands-on. And I did the hands-on and I won a prize at that hands-on for the for that ITI week that they were there for. Okay, okay. So I won a prize because of um the prosthetics that I had to do for that. And then Christian and Paul came and talked to me after that, and they're like, um Yeah, you know, we want to see more of you and all of these things. And I didn't really think it was something big just yet. But what ended up happening in the wake of that was that um so they saw me lecture at that point, and at some point someone put my name forward. And my high suspicions were that it was Christian and Paul, because not many people outside the university knew me at that point. Um but they put my name, or someone put my name forward to lecture when IFED came to South Africa.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:40

Right.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:41

The International Federation for Aesthetic Dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:44

And then the Prostodonics Academy was also having a side session at that.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:50

And then my name was put forward to give a lecture with Irena Saylor. So Irina Saylor is one of the biggest prosthetics in the world. Okay. She is phenomenal. Where is she based? She's based in Switzerland. Okay. And in fact, most of the ITI consensus stuff she's worked on. She's published textbooks. She's, I think, uh the editor, I think, stand to be corrected, editor-in-chief for uh International Journal of Prostonics.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:16

Um, but Irena Saylor is one of the biggest names in Prostodonics. And so here's me and Irina Saylor lecturing. The only two lectures on the stage are that's cool. So, and I'm I'm a registrar, I'm a junior. That's amazing. This is 2015, I'm like second year or something. Cool.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:34

And I'm lecturing with Irina Saylor. And, you know, it so the Academy of Prostodonics and the ITI now are sort of both starting to align with my beliefs. And um the Academy of Prostodonics for me was that was the that was the House of Lords.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:56

That is where all my mentors lived. That's that's the Dale House, that's the Peter Owen, that's the uh Hemendullah. So all the Prostodonists in the country, uh, well, most of the prosthetics in the country subscribe to the Academy of Prostodontics.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:12

So that's the members of that.

SPEAKER_03 2:16:14

Yeah, that's like the Sada for Prostodontists. Yes. Um so they have these annual meetings, and I had to present at the APSA breakaway with Irina Saylor. And um that was that was a great experience. And then I went on to lecture back at our university, giving seminar after seminar. And at some point, I got an invite. And this was 2016. Still a ridge. Still a ridge. Yeah. Still doing my still doing my thing. I'm still getting through my my daily routines, giving my seminars, giving my journal discussions. 2016, somewhere, I get an invite from the ITI in Basel to give a lecture at their World Symposium in 2017.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:17:08

And now I I didn't even I didn't think, nah, this isn't this isn't happening.

SPEAKER_00 2:17:13

Yeah. Did they send it to the wrong person?

SPEAKER_03 2:17:15

Yeah, this is not uh this is this is just this is just me. This is the little kid from Tongue Out with no exact no no central incisor, and I'm I'm being called on to a global platform. Not just a global, it's the it's the biggest implant dentistry congress in the world. And I I know it was Paul Fonzel or Christian that had something to do with it by putting my name forward as one of the speakers. And um then there were other education weeks that came up. Uh, I remember there was a speaker competition that came up afterwards. And I thought that my post or my my ability to lecture at that conference was predicated on on me winning a competition or doing other jumping through other hoops of fire to get to that point. So there was a speaker competition that took place. I remember Rudy Garana, myself, and Michael Michael had to take part and we had to speak up against each other, and Rudy won the thing. Okay. And he he the guy put together a phenomenal presentation. And um, so I I I came on, I I don't I think they just announced the winners, which was Rudy. And I thought, ah, well, that's that's it then. There goes that dream. And then I I a week later I'm going through my emails, and then Daniel Vismeyer says, no, he wants my Daniel Vismeyer is one of the organizers at the ITI head office. And he's like, he wants my abstract urgently because it's overdue. Where's their head office? Basel. Okay in Switzerland. Right. Uh Bern. One of the two. Yeah. So um, so like he says my abstract is overdue. So like, no, but I I didn't I I didn't think that I'm coming because I didn't, he's like, no, we don't know anything about a competition. You are on the you are on the program. Yeah. We need your stuff, ASAP. So I was like, okay, let's do this. So now I realize and it was a very surreal moment because now I realize I'm going to the show. Yeah. I'm at the table. So now I may finally a reg and I'm invited now to speak at this international symposium. And they had me lecturing at the uh breakaway for I think it was managing implant complications or managing complex managing complex cases. Okay. And I was giving my lecture there. That was a a very terrifying moment because I'd never been around that many people in one room in my life. Yeah. Uh I mean, sure, I've been to concerts and stuff, but not not in that academic sphere. Okay, academic sphere. Yeah. And um so it's my turn to go up and so that admittedly it was not the main stage, which was like 5,000 people. Okay. Mine was a breakaway where there were several hundred. I don't know how many exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:15

Oh, just only several hundred, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:17

Several hundreds, yeah. And so I'm I'm I go up on stage and we still get the whole South African cohort came to my lecture. And but that's how South Africans are. Yeah. When we go abroad, everyone just shows up for whoever's speaking when they're South African. And that's one thing you you cannot take away. It's like, I mean, whether people like me or not, they were there because they were just supporting.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:39

Yeah. You're representing the bigger future.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:42

Yeah. So then I I think that we that year it was Lyra Rachmann and myself. We were both lecturing.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:48

But Lyra was representing Switzerland because she was at Bern University at that time. Oh, okay. Um so I gave my lecture and I remember I got up on stage, and I it was the first time I felt nervous because I mean, this is international. This is I've never done that. This is my first international anything lecture. And I remember the first thing that came out of my mouth was I I had I had the script memorized in my mind. And I know never go scripted, never go scripts.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03 2:21:23

Never go scripted.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21:25

And and I've but I I had to memorize this thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21:29

So I wanted to say, yeah, I first want to thank Uspelzer for uh no, sorry, it was Us Brager. I I wanted to say, I want to thank Us Brager for welcoming to the stage and the ITI for hosting me here today.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21:44

But I said, I want to thank Us Brager for hosting me, uh, for for inviting me to the stage, and I want to thank the ITI for holding me here today. And immediately, yeah, like the blood drains from my face. I'm like, okay, I'm going off script. I'm going off script. I'm going off script. And it's like, okay, let's just calm down. Yeah. And like my voice is quivering. And then I give my introduction. We're going to talk about um crown to implant ratio. And I put up my first slide. And that was the moment it changed.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:18

The moment my first slide went up, it's like the sea of photograph of hands come up with cameras. Okay. And they start taking photos.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:27

It's like you just see this entire sea, like a tsunami, just everything comes up and then photographs start going off. And that was the sort of aha moment where I realized I'm I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:40

Yeah. You've got value to add. People want to see what you're giving. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:43

Yeah. It's like I've I know this stuff. Yeah. It's I've given this lecture before. I've practiced, I've rehearsed this. They are here to see me. And that was the moment. And it it suddenly just clicked. And then it started flowing. Oh, I love it. And and then it was, then it was smooth.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:03

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:04

And it was like this just peak where I made this one slip up. And once those hands raised up and I saw all these cameras and I realized they're here for me. Deliver. Exactly. It's time to go.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:15

And that's why every time I, before I give a lecture now, I I I tell my wife, it's go time. Because it was that moment. It's like, it's time to go. It's go time.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:26

This it's a fascinating story, though.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:28

People won't know that you go through all the self-doubt and you like it's nervous.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:33

It's so emotional. And um, yeah, so I I let it I let it flow. Uh at the end, there was questions and answers. There's a there's a guy, um I forget his name now, um, Paul Fogazzotto from Boston University. Afterwards, he came to me and it's like, I love the way you lecture. And he's famous for his his bow ties and his shoes and his socks. But he came to me from Boston and he's like, I love the way you lecture. I'd love to have you over sometime.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:02

It's so awesome. And he doesn't have to say that to you.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:04

No. Yeah. But it was such a humbling thing where it it it it made me feel, yes, this is yeah, this is it. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. I'm living that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:15

That was the first international one.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:17

That was the first international. But then a month later I was in Zurich.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:20

Okay. Um just started to the flood, the floodgates opened.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:23

Yeah. And then I lectured a bit uh for the uh well, giving my research and I printed presented a few cases at ICP. I think it was in Seoul, uh in South Korea, in Chile. Um I don't remember. I did some stuff in Lisbon.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:40

Um So this is taking you all over the world.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:42

Yeah. Dentistry has taken me to places I could I mean you've just come back from Montenegro. Yeah. Yeah. That was an amazing experience.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:49

It looks beautiful. I saw on your Instagram.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:51

Yeah. Um yeah, the people there are lovely. Uh so I gave a I gave them a lecture on aesthetic considerations around implants. So it's it's about how to put those final touches, the polish, that that what how to get your tooth to disappear within the mouth so that people don't realize that that's artificial.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:12

Oh, sure. So it's it's well so so now international lectures are just you don't do you get nervous or no, not really? You're like excited, nervous, or no, not even. Really?

SPEAKER_03 2:25:23

Yeah, now there's no nerves.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:24

That's awesome. It's it's but I mean you've been doing it from what, second year, third year edge to what is it, fourth year?

SPEAKER_03 2:25:31

Yeah, but I think it so I lecture, I I lecture a lot. Uh privately, I I I lecture for the ITI. Uh I run a stu the Pretoria Study Club with Shan Naidu.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:42

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:25:43

Um we are the co-directors of the Pretoria based on the city. That's the Maxfax, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:25:47

Uh also a great friend. Um, so we run the Pretoria Study Club uh for the ITI. Um so standing in front of a in front of an audience is not a problem. It's it's for me, I get to deliver my philosophy on on what I believe in in dentistry. And I get to teach what I do. I don't teach things that I'm out of my comfort zone. Yes, yes. If I'm if I'm up there lecturing on something, it's because I'm teaching I I and I use my cases to enforce the the message because I'm showing what I do, I'm showing how I do it, and I treat using the evidence.

SPEAKER_00 2:26:26

You you're the subject matter expert. You're speaking about what you know about. Nobody knows it better than you.

SPEAKER_03 2:26:30

Right. And and that was something that Dirk always said is that when you give a seminar, or when you give a so Dirk Harps, he always told me that when you give a lecture or a seminar, you own that topic. You are the master of that topic because you've researched it, you've done the background. So there's nobody that should be able to approach you after and ask you a question that's gonna stump you.

SPEAKER_00 2:26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:26:50

And that's always resonated with me because every time now I go to prep for a lecture, it may sometimes be some some parts of another lecture repeated, but it's always current.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:27:04

I would always go back to the evidence and pick up the most current evidence and augment with more evidence and more literature. And if the messages change, so be it. Yeah. Because we don't think the same things that we thought 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:18

Even if the messages are repeated, it's reinforcement. Yes. Somebody's gonna appreciate it. Yes. You don't change it for the sake of changing it.

SPEAKER_03 2:27:25

Yeah, and and on the you know, on the uh on the flight to Montenegro uh now, I remember my wife said something to me about um we we support you all the way. Yeah. And um and I I sent a message back to her and I and I and I actually meant it. I I felt it in me. I was like, you know, you've given me the wings to fly. Sure. Because, you know, I'm I'm doing all of this. I'm touring the world, I'm invited to invited as a lecturer all around the world. And it's because she's uplifted me to that point in my life. Where we're cuts off to her, yeah. And and that's something we maybe take too much for granted, where the the support, especially as a specialist, I mean, you you take for granted the sacrifices your spouse or your um your partner makes to get you to that point.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:22

And that was that was something I said to her where it's, you know, I'm I'm here because you can get so you probably get so engrossed in your work and so like focused and sometimes maybe neglect something on the sideline and they've got to appreciate that this person's pushing their passion.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:39

Yeah, you and you know, like here in this practice, this is my passion. What I do here, it's it's supported by the evidence. And what my actually my my receptionist Anania, she told me recently that we need to we need to display some more display more of our cases because the patients that walk out of here, it's the cases I show on stage, it's case selection because I want to show how to do things.

SPEAKER_00 2:29:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:29:07

But every case we put out is at that level. We don't show our fanciest cases. Right. We show every case comes out looking like that. It's just for the message I want to deliver, that's the case I'm showing. But we show our case, well, actually, every single case works out with those kind of results because when I treat, I treat with the evidence in mind. So I'm using the scientific literature to support my treatment-making decisions. Yeah. And that's sort of what prostodonics is. It's it's about using the science to back up your decision-making process.

SPEAKER_00 2:29:41

So do your patients so you look, you obviously after Regtime, you got into private practice.

SPEAKER_03 2:29:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:29:47

And you're now on what what's this what's this address?

SPEAKER_03 2:29:50

Uh 565 Mendelssohn Street T.

SPEAKER_00 2:29:52

In Pretoria, right? Capital Prostodontics. Yeah. You're obviously doing well. I mean, this I'm gonna I need to take some video walking around later and put it. But my question is like, do you how do you show your patients your passion? Like, do you think it comes through? Or do you because remember patients just Google us and come to us, say prostodontist near me, or or get referred. They don't know all the stuff that goes behind everything.

SPEAKER_03 2:30:16

I how do you show it to them? I don't I don't show, like I said, me, me, um Or maybe I shouldn't be asking you this question.

SPEAKER_00 2:30:23

I should ask a patient.

SPEAKER_03 2:30:24

It's it I think there's a different message. Yeah. So me accepting this part of myself and and this history behind what makes me me is a recent um acknowledgement. It's it's something that I've only recently accepted that it's something I want known. Okay. Because I've tried to hide it so much.

SPEAKER_00 2:30:48

Why?

SPEAKER_03 2:30:49

I don't know. I I think that maybe I I didn't want people to know that I've had this massive trauma. That I didn't want people looking and scrutinizing my incisors. Okay, which one is the crown? Which one so maybe I just didn't want anyone drawing or I didn't want to draw any attention to that part. Yeah. So I've thought it's part of you. It's a part of me. It's a part of you. It's part of your vision. It's it's the the catalyst. Yeah. And I think that's what I've rec is recently realized is that who I am today is because of all of these little nudges in this direction that's brought me here.

SPEAKER_00 2:31:22

All those seeds that were planted, all the family that brought you up. Yeah. All those mentors.

SPEAKER_03 2:31:27

And that that's also why I take teaching and mentoring so seriously. Yeah. Because I I mean, I love I love teaching. And any of the dentists that come out of Turkeys will tell you that the message that I give to them is that when they go out into private practice, they have my cell number. They are welcome to approach me at any point. WhatsApp me. I'll help them with their cases. I want them to make good decisions.

SPEAKER_00 2:31:50

We didn't touch on that though. Well, what's your role at the university or where?

SPEAKER_03 2:31:54

I'm um part-time clinical supervisor at Tuckeys uh so at University of Pretoria in the postgrad and undergraduate programs. Right. So I help um develop the next generation of specialists.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:07

Right. And you lecture and stuff and all that.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:09

Lecture is a loose word. I I'm mostly clinically supervised. Okay. But I am going to be giving them a lecture later in this year. All right. It's lecturing takes time. It's to prepare a one-hour lecture takes about eight hours of prep.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:26

So I But then where do you get the time anyway to do this part-time stuff and private practice?

SPEAKER_03 2:32:33

I have to make the time.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:35

Yeah, family time sacrifices. Um Yeah, so I I haven't even I can't remember the last time I I've been home to my my folks' place in Durban. Um but it's it's we and sometimes like my my mom will will tell me we want to go away next weekend to the Drackensburg or wherever. And it's like I booked my calendar out like seven or eight months in advance. You can't I know this.

SPEAKER_00 2:33:01

That's why I was like so happy when I could get you on the show. Like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:33:05

So so yeah, it's um yes, I'm a I'm a part-time supervisor at Techies, and um, but I've got to make time. And we always I can't remember the movie. If if you never make the time, how can you ever take the time?

SPEAKER_02 2:33:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:33:18

But yeah, I I have to make the time between it between it all. You you gotta keep reading. Um when I'm when I'm traveling, when I'm flying, when I'm just sitting at home, I've got an article on my cell phone, I'm reading through it.

SPEAKER_00 2:33:34

Yeah, you'll you'll eat, sleep, breathe this work. What do you do for five? Apart from work, what do you do for five?

SPEAKER_03 2:33:40

Well, I'm hoping we're gonna play paddles soon.

SPEAKER_00 2:33:42

Okay, yeah, yeah. We must start that.

SPEAKER_03 2:33:43

Yeah. Yeah. Uh I I play soccer. Yeah, five aside or uh yeah, five aside. Some well, you know how it goes. Sometimes it's six aside, sometimes it's seven aside, as many as they can squeeze into a field. Yeah. Uh so yeah, I I used to play indoor. I haven't played in about a year now. Yeah. Um

SPEAKER_00 2:34:00

And what's next? I mean, this practice is it's gonna expand, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:34:04

I mean it's yeah, there's there's more coming in this practice. Yeah. There's there's things happening here. Um But yeah, I still train. I go to the gym often. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:15

Movies. So you seem to be big into movies.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:17

I love I love pop culture references. I love movies.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:19

I don't watch any what what series are you watching?

SPEAKER_03 2:34:21

No, I can't. I don't do it.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:23

You better watch Severance.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:24

I don't have time for series.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:25

Oh man, you make time. Come on. Severance is good. You make the time.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:28

Um I think I can do a bit of like reality now and then. I can do like Love is Blind. Like, Oh my goodness, okay. It's my wife and I, we we would do that.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:36

But um Yeah, you have to always watch well, not always, but it would always be in the background.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:42

Um and then other thing with the housewives in Durban or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:45

Oh no, I can't do that. Yeah. No man, that that's one of the reasons I've never gone back to Durban.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:49

Okay. I can't I can't deal with that. Are your parents still in La Mercy?

SPEAKER_03 2:34:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:53

I can't deal with that. Housewives anything. Housewives Dubai, Housewives Durban, Housewives wherever I can do it.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:01

The North Coast is nice. Yeah. So you'll never you'll be in Pretoria, you think it's I love it here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:06

Yeah. So my my free time, anyone that knows me now will tell you that I love going to the Kruger Park.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:16

So that's my free time thing. So I'd say about a third of the year I'm at the Kruger Park.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:20

Do you do photography and stuff? Yeah. I have.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:22

So that's my thing. So I do dental ph I do wildlife photography.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:25

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:25

So I've got a massive rig.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:28

My son even has his own DSLR with his telescope, his telephoto lens.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:31

How old is he? He's five. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:33

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:34

So starting young, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:36

Um, but like with Shaylendullah with Lala, we go to the Kruger.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:40

Do you know Kabir Rajkumar by any sense? Yes, very well. Because he's also into wildlife photography. Kabir. I must take him. He must link up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:47

I know him very well.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:48

He loves it and he loves fishing. Maybe he'll teach you fishing.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:51

He can maybe take me fishing.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:52

A period and a prosto.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:54

Yeah. Step into a last year, we did this thing called the specialist wild walk.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:59

So um a whole lot of specialists got together and we took a walk through the Kruger Park. We spent three days walking through the Kruger. All prosterantes. Uh Ashin, Ashen Singh. Yeah. Prosto. Uh Raj Dulub, Prosto, Shan Naidu, Max Fak, and myself. Um so we spent uh three days walking through the Kruger. Um that was very cool. And then we got some nice photography and all of that. But we want to try to make it an annual thing now.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:27

And so this is that's part of your so like professional involvement is a big part of your life.

SPEAKER_03 2:36:32

Upliftment of so so this is the thing. Yeah. So back to mentoring. I take it so seriously because I feel that that was one part of my career that I I regretted. Okay. Where I didn't have sufficient mentorship.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:36:47

And I I don't mind taking time out of my day to help a dentist who messages me and say, Hey Avi, I need help. If this is the case, what should I do? Okay. I have no problem doing that. And I would and there are so many dentists who do that. And even more so where there are dentists who who tell me they want to specialize and they're not sure yet. But at the moment, there are three registrars that I've helped get into Prosto. Okay. So to a degree, I've assisted them. Like Anaf and As Vierchen, I've mentored her to get her her post. George Bibliolarkus, I've I I gave him a bit of prep before his interviews. Hermann van den Berg, when there was a post, I gave him the call and was like, bro, there's a post. Apply. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:34

That's my old classmate. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_03 2:37:36

So three currently that are in the program that I've had maybe some of them a little more of a hand, some of them a little less of a hand.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:37:45

But at this moment, there's about three other dentists that I'm trying to help get into the program. Because sometimes, like any of the mentors who've helped me, you never know when someone's going to just nudge you in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 2:37:57

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:37:58

And that's my thing. I want to be that catalyst for someone. And to come full circle, you know, you never know when you're going to plant that seed into someone else.

SPEAKER_00 2:38:08

A little small gesture can go a huge way and change somebody's life.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:38:12

And make them go from the small town to Switzerland.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:38:16

Yeah. It's amazing, man. Thank you so much for joining me, dude. Yeah. We could go on for another couple of hours. I know we could. We'll probably have another like a part two somewhere in five, six years. When you've started some foundation or something or the other.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:28

That's in the process. Oh, is it happening? So because I think I do a bit of oncology.

SPEAKER_00 2:38:32

You didn't tell me this, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:33

Yeah. No, I do a bit of oncology, a lot of oncology here. Actually, about every month we get about two or three big oncology cases.

SPEAKER_00 2:38:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:41

Some of them, unfortunately, they they struggle financially. So I want to start a foundation where we start treating these patients for free.

SPEAKER_00 2:38:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:48

Um so um I want to start building up this kind of foundation where we help these patients who've suffered um with some kind of cancer or some kind of trauma, and we want to be able to help them out.

SPEAKER_00 2:39:01

Well, I have no doubt you're going to ch change many people's lives, not just patients, but you know, future specialists, colleagues. Uh I'm proud to say I know you and I'm privileged to have been able to have you on the show. So thank you so much for coming, man. It was a really good talk.

SPEAKER_03 2:39:15

Yeah, it's a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 2:39:16

Thanks so much for sharing and being so open. I appreciate it. Thank you. All right, man. Shut.