SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back, everyone. You know, this month I've got some very interesting guests lined up. Starting today with my guest all the way from the US, Dr. Nondomiso Makunga Stevenson. Welcome, Doc.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

What brings you to South Africa?

SPEAKER_04 0:17

Well, it's home. Okay. It's home. My family's here. My colleagues are here.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Brilliant. I don't usually do this, but I gotta start with all your credentials and things. I'm not gonna read out your bio and stuff like that. But you've been a medical doctor you are a medical doctor. You worked in South Africa, you worked in the UK, you worked in the CBD of Joburg, you were in solo GP practice, group GP practice, worked at one of the big five pharmaceutical companies. I mean, I don't think there's stuff well, actually, maybe the only thing you might not have done is academia, or but you were a registrar at one stage. So you've got a lot of experience and it's an honor to have you here. And I'm not gonna jump so far ahead, but I will I like to take it all the way back. But welcome. It's a pleasure having you. Tell me about how you got here. You know, from the beginning. Let's start right at the beginning. Where you from?

SPEAKER_04 1:15

Well, thanks, thanks so much. I can see you've done your your research. I feel I feel you know a lot about me already just from that. Um, yeah, my journey very proudly started in Umlazi in Durban. That is where I was born. Um, one of two children from my mother. I grew up on my mother's side of the family, but I was very close to my paternal side of the family and raised in a very tight-knit community in in Umlazi. So that's a township that's very close to my heart because there was a very strong sense of community and uh support. And um yeah, that's that's that's essentially how I was I was raised.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

We we have similar backgrounds in that we both come from townships. Now, the I don't know if our international listeners and viewers will know what a township is. I mean, can you explain to them what the government did to all of us back in the day?

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Um what happened was black, Indian, and colored so people of color in South Africa were pushed into certain areas by the apartheid government, which was on the outskirts of the city, not close to where commerce was, and everything else was everywhere else, right? So we we call those townships. I don't know what they call it in the US. Uh they probably don't even have a term for it, right? The the projects maybe not really.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

I'm not aware if there is um something yes, um it to that extent um as it was. And yes, I will uh I'm showing my age by saying it was during apartheid. I was born um really at the height of apartheid in the 70s. And exactly as you've mentioned, you know, I grew up in a township for black uh South Africans or black Africans, um, separate from Indian and colored. Having said that, my exposure to Indian, colored, and white people and and and different communities was not typical because of my education. So my parents both being professionals and uh middle class, because we had middle class, uh even in the townships. You know, if you went to places like Reservoir Hills, for example, that's where very wealthy Indians would would live uh in in Durban. But because they had the means and the resources, and uh at that time there were opportunities to be able to get an education in private schools at that time, we used to call them multiracial schools, right? Mostly run by um the churches.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

Um uh so I started essentially the bulk of my education there. So in those environments, although we were the minority, that's where we really got to interact with children our own age who were of different races.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

That's interesting because you see, so I'm not a born-free. In South Africa we call born free people that were born after 1994 because that was when officially apartheid came to an end, right? I I was on the cusp of apartheid and born freeism. But you're saying you grew up during um apartheid or childhood was in apartheid. Now, I didn't experience the thing of you know proper segregation, right? So I was one of the first few batches of kids of colour that were going into the private schools in Durban, right? I'll never forget because I used to be in an Indian school uh in grade one, and then my parents moved me to this private school, which is predominantly white in Durban. So we moved out of the township, my parents moved to Umschlanga or Umschlanga, we call it Amschlanga, you know how we pronounce it as Durbanites that are not Zulu speaking natively. Um, and I'll never forget the first time I interacted with white people was when I moved from the Indian school to the white school, and it was a bit of an adjustment for me because in the in my township, mostly Indian black. Now, how was it for you in Mlazi? Was it like that similarly? Did you interact with white people? How did it work?

SPEAKER_04 5:38

Yeah, I I think very exactly the same. I I also started my very first year in uh a township school. And then for my second year of education, which would be what grade two now? That's when we moved to predominantly white uh private school. But we lived in in Umlazi because Group Areas Act was still in force at that time.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

So you have to travel to school or you're in boarding school, I think, yeah?

SPEAKER_04 6:05

Well, initially uh up to grade, which would be grade nine now, yeah. I uh up to excuse me, grade eight, uh standard six at that time. Um I was in uh day school.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

And then from grade uh nine or standard seven, I then moved to a boarding school, which was again another private school with uh, you know, with origins in in the in the church. But yeah, it was a it it was interesting looking back now. I think at that time one doesn't really think about the meaning of certain experiences because it's just it's what's happening to you.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:48

But looking back, it living in the township and going and traveling to other areas, to the suburbs, yeah, was quite eye-opening. So you saw these kind of two parallels, two worlds essentially. It's amazing. Yeah, and being able and having to be able to straddle both, you know, understand what is happening in my community. As I said, we're all very close. You know, as it moved into the 80s, there was a lot of unrest, political unrest. Uh sometimes we were not even able to go to school because of that. Um, but at the same time also seeing what it looked like in the in the suburbs.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

So looking back now, I could see the sort of the two the paradoxes of the country, which which which exist, I think, even till today.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Not many people get to straddle those two uh sort of situations, right? Um so you gotta go, you move to the burbs, you you go to school there, then afterwards you come back to the township, and then you you know, it's a different lifestyle, right? I I mean I don't I'll never forget because when we moved from Tongat, like I I used to l play on the streets, literally. We had a dead end where all the kids would come around and play cricket, and I used to pretend to be Farney De Villiers, who was a fast bowler those days. Moved away, none of that happens there. It's all at school, and then you go home and you carry on like that. But the fact that you went to private school at that time, maybe I'm ignorant, it tells me that you come from you you're sort of well off, even though you're in the township, right? Now I know your dad was a doctor, mum's a nurse, grandmum's a traditional hero, come from this lineage.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

It it almost sort of answers the question already, which is the name of this podcast, why did I become a doctor? Right. But is that really why you became a doctor? Just because it happened like that.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

You know, I've always asked myself at what point did I make a decision to become a doctor? And I I do not have any recollection of sitting through and thinking about it. So my assumption is that it is because I grew up in a predominantly medical family. Um I have aunts. Um, out of all my aunts, I have uh four aunts. And uh, well, one is late now, but out of out of them, only one is not a nurse. And she started off uh doing nursing and then she changed her mind and did uh you went the academic route. So yeah, very much uh part of that. My maternal grandmother, uh her mother was a herbalist, you know, so she really understood medications. Um so I grew up really in that environment. So I I do believe that's that that probably was the influence uh to a large extent, and not necessarily me thinking about it.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 9:48

Um but there is a belief also in in my culture, certainly, that um, you know, we we call it a bag, you know, your your your medicine bag, if you will. You pass it from one generation to the other.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

So it's not like the parents or grandparents said uh you must do medicine, you know.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

My father did not want me to do medicine, even though he's a doctor. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

It doesn't surprise me at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:18

Why when I was in high school, I I strongly expressed that desire. Fortunately, my parents were not uh prescriptive in terms of you know academics and what we wanted to do, as long as you know they they obviously believed in education, but they they didn't really mind whatever we chose to do.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

Lovely.

SPEAKER_04 10:37

So when I expressed that to my dad, that look, I think uh I, you know, I'm really I believe this is what I'd like to do, and I want to do medicine.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

When was this in your life?

SPEAKER_04 10:46

This was in high school. Okay. Yeah, this was in high school before I um I applied, and you know, things were were sort of moving that way. And he said to me, Well, you know, for a woman, I think it'll be a bit challenging for you.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:01

And there is a context to this. It's not because he doesn't believe women can't be doctors. But in his generation, firstly, there were very few women who were getting into the profession. It's not like now where there's actually more women, I believe, than men in the medical profession. But um, for a woman, it was a little bit difficult uh to be accepted into medical programs. But also the the environment uh society at that time still had women, you know, the the image of a woman was not somebody who'd be on call for for 72 hours. You still had the responsibilities of, you know, looking after the family. I don't believe that has changed dramatically.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

In South Africa.

SPEAKER_04 11:52

Anywhere in the Really? Okay, so even in the States, there's a similar type of Yeah, I think society has moved a lot further. A lot further, for sure. But I don't uh uh I do feel that there are some people who believe that. So I think his concern was if and he literally he did say, you know, it it might get to a point where I'll have to choose the profession or choose being married and having children. Yeah because it was challenging for women at that time to go into medicine because of the number of years it took to study and the actual nature of the work.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

So what did he say you should rather do?

SPEAKER_04 12:32

He didn't mind what I did.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah, just just think about it carefully if you want to get into medicine. Correct. I've been there, I know what it's like, I've seen a it's I'm glad you explained the context behind his discouragement because you know, this is South Africa, and as you said, that is how that generation grew up and thought. I mean, we can't blame them for that because they've also experienced that, right? Yes. So they've seen it. Um they didn't know that 30 years from then or 40 years, whenever there's gonna be a thing called a content creator or a coach, which we'll get into, or all the or working in a non-clinical role in pharmaceutical company. They don't know all that. So you've got to appreciate that they're giving you advice based on their experience. Because the funny thing is, my dad is a lawyer, right? And he was a lawyer for decades also. And when I was in that same situation as you, and I said to him, Dad, I want to do law, he said, eight. Now it's saturated, think about something else. So it's funny, we have another thing in common where our dad sort of said, think about it carefully when we said what we wanted to do. Okay, but you just you pushed on, you persevered, or did you think of maybe something else, engineering or I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 13:42

I did. When I when I got to high school, you know, um, in the school that I attended, you get counseling, you know, career counseling, and you they'll do different aptitude tests.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Your high school was in Maritzburg, right?

SPEAKER_04 13:57

My high school was in Peter Maritzburg, uh St. Anne's, where I spent um about four years. Absolutely loved it.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah, that's quite far from Mlasi, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 14:07

It is about an hour. It's about an hour.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Proper drive.

SPEAKER_04 14:09

Yeah, it's a proper drive, but a very different town as well.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:13

Um it's uh, you know, Peter Maritzburg, it's a little bit smaller. Um, but I loved Peter. The Sleepy Hollow.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

No offense, no offense, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:22

Yeah, at that time it was a little bit, you know, laid back. And I think it it also gave me an appreciation of small towns, you know. Um they tend to be also very rich, uh, you know, also very community-driven and close-knit. Uh, but yeah, my in when I got to high school, which I absolutely enjoyed, and um, we got career counseling. And the top three that came out for me after that were medicine, uh, law and uh teaching, education. And uh based on the aptitude tests. Based on the aptitude tests, yes. At a time I did consider engineering.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:06

And uh again, remember that this was during apartheid. Yes, and I remember thinking about um commerce. And so our school uh in the Western, they took us to there was the there's a the if every year there used to be a Peter Marysburg show, there used to be a show. Yes, yes, the agricultural show.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

I don't know if you if you were. I only know if the Rand Easter show or something, but that might not be in Marysburg.

SPEAKER_04 15:32

No, no. This is a this is specifically one in Peter Marysburg that's been around for for many, many years. And uh they had different banks and different exhibitors there.

SPEAKER_03 15:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

And um for the first time I heard at that time they used to have um what they call the folk Folks Bank.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Okay, yeah, yeah. Like People's Bank it's translated to People's Bank, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:56

Yes. And um so I asked, and I was I was happy that I got the the truth for the true response. Because I I asked about the bank and I was told, well, you know, that's fine, but we won't be able to hire you because you're because you're black. Yes. That was the response that I got at that time.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

Hectic, yeah?

SPEAKER_04 16:16

Yeah, it was hectic. It was hectic. Um so some of them, of course, there were some that that were quite open. Um but I I'll never forget that particular uh incident.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

That's interesting because you gotta admire the the the honesty, but at the same time, it's bizarre to think that, oh, you're sorry, you're black, we can't hire you.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

That was how it was.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

So are you, if I'm understanding correctly, in your mind, you're also thinking, okay, career choices are rather limited for me. But isn't medicine also a limited at that time? You know, were black people getting in, or was it easy to just get in in those days?

SPEAKER_04 16:56

So it was limited uh to this extent. Um I went to what in the US would be called an uh an HBC, historically black uh college and university. Okay. At that time, the University of Natal Medical School was only for um colored, Indians, and Africans. Those were the only three, by the time I've completed, I think they started getting um white students. But when I attended it, and certainly when my dad attended it, it was only Indians, Africans, and colors that could be admitted. Um and there were, of course, uh other colleagues that uh attended other universities or uh white universities, predominantly white university or historically white universities at that time. And uh but there were there were fewer, so they were the minority that would have attended.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Your UCTs, University of Cape Town, Stellenbosch, Free State, Pretoria, those that's what you're talking about, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 18:02

Yes. And then at that time, now I'm really showing my age, it actually used to be called RAO, RAU, RAND AFRIKANSA University, which is now UJ. Sure. So they also had uh had a medical school, but it was limited. Um so you my best bet was that. But then there was also uh at that time we called it Medunza, which was the other option. So I was uh fortunately accepted into the University of Natal at that time.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

So you applied for medicine. We skipped it because you had these three there was teaching, there was um medicine, and there was what was the third law. So you're like, okay, no, the money's in medicine. What's the thinking behind this?

SPEAKER_04 18:41

So it was just my love. It was just my love, it was my passion. Um as I said, I I don't know how, but I I think possibly looking back now, I it's just what was my calling. It was just my calling for me to be in in health. So it was it it didn't take a lot of energy for me to think about it. Although I was accepted for law at um University of Cape Town, but when when uh University of Natale came through for medicine, because it was also close to home and it's what I wanted to do, uh I think it was in the stars for me to do it.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

I think it's interesting this, and I and I'm sorry to like park on the subject, right? Because it's literally why I started this podcast and named it specifically why did I become a doctor. Because so far, most of the guests that I've asked the question, it can't really pinpoint it, but something in life has influenced them, right? Now, I was listening to a story you were telling uh on another podcast, which which sort of sparked something in my mind, right? It goes all the way back to a memory that you had of your grandmom who had a tree or a plant in a in a yard. And can you just tell that story about how what would happen with that plant in the community there?

SPEAKER_04 19:58

Yeah. So one thing I learned from my grandmother is generosity. Right. She was uh the type of person that every now and again she would prepare some traditional meal and beer, and anybody that passed by, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Anybody in the community.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

Anybody that passed by in the community, you could come in and we have a meal together.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 20:23

Um, she was a very generous person, but she was also very good with herbs. Right. Um, so she would plant uh different plants, but somewhere inside the yard, yes. But there was this uh particular plant that she had which was at the gate and was accessible to anybody. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Anybody just passing by?

SPEAKER_04 20:42

Yes. So how the house was built was that if you're sitting in the kitchen, which is where she loves sitting, you could see as people are passing by, and people literally, and you could see at the gate as well, this is where this plant was. So as they pass, they would greet, you know, because they can see her, yeah, and they would ask if they could have a few, a few leaves, you know, off this particular plant.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:09

It was a very bitter pun. You don't know, you don't want to get it, you don't want to taste it. And she would give it to us for everything. If you've got a flu, if you've got uh, you know, cramps, whatever it is, you know, you boil it, you just pound the leaves, you boil it, and you drink it like a tea, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

So you would witness all of this as a young child growing up that your granny is like sort of helping the community. Correct. And is that like a memory that you cherish?

SPEAKER_04 21:34

I love that part about it as it relates to to medicine. Yeah. Because the lesson that I got from that is about uh using your knowledge as service to other people.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yes. And she wasn't charging people for this, right?

SPEAKER_04 21:52

No, not at all. Not at all. Okay. Um, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

So that's the thing. Because you never mentioned the money thing when I asked you why did you get. And I deliberately said, well, because it's money and you didn't you didn't even think this didn't feature in your thinking, right? So it I when I heard this story about your grandmom, I'm thinking maybe that's why. You know, you see how your family helps the community. And presumably your dad was the same, and people spoke well of him and everybody knew him in the community. Am I right?

SPEAKER_04 22:20

Absolutely. I mean, to this day, um, I still come across his patients. He's semi-retired now.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

But there's nothing so heartwarming when I hear stories from people sometimes my age and uh younger who say, you know, your your father was my GP, you know, when I was a child, or um, you know, he was my family doctor, essentially, he was my mother's doctor. Um, and the stories that they share are really in keeping with that. Somebody who who becomes uh truly a family doctor, the way that we we we used to have family doctors. I remember a story of uh a patient, she was my age, yeah, and uh she told me about her mother, who was my father's patient, and she said, you know, at a time they were giving her mother problems. You know, they were just being naughty as uh young people, you know, and it would she was very stressed. And she shared this with my dad that, you know, these that my kids are stressing me out. She said, you know, your dad came to our house and told us to stop, to stop stressing.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Wow, it's amazing, yeah, how things were done those days. Like that was community.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

That was how family doctors were. They would be, they would know the family, you know, they would know the dynamics of the family that were affecting the patient's health. Because, you know, it when a patient comes to you, they don't come to you as an individual, they're part of um a community or family, society, and all of those things have an impact on their health. So he really got involved with his patients, and so it's really heartwarming, as I said, to come across people that were his patients, directed, indirectly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Your dad helped me. Your dad came to my house and said, Behave because you're stressing your mama. It's amazing, eh?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

There's also this point that I well, not a point, but something I noticed. Kids of doctors, now I know a lot of them, they either really want to be a doctor or they absolutely know it's not for them.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

And I I feel like it just depends maybe on their experience and how they experienced their parents growing up and what they saw. But anyway, let's not unpack that any further. We've spoken about it. So I think deep down it's actually you've just you've seen how your family has blessed a community and become part of a community that probably at the back of your mind inspired you. Because it wasn't the money thing. You weren't thinking, can I get in this for for the dollars, the DR and the dollars? Okay, so you get into med school. Oh, or you have go for that.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Yeah, and I think I I would want to add that, especially at that time, there was a lot of respect for certain professions. And I think uh nursing, medicine, um, police, teachers, you know, those were, especially in our apartheid communities, there were not many of them, but those are the people that the community also looked up to and respected. So, you know, being uh somebody who is a child of uh professionals, you kind of also understand that these are professions that are respectable, you know, priests, you know, these are uh uh uh professions that society admires, you know. Uh so I think there was an element also of looking at how society viewed these professions and valued them, you know, beyond money. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

I think that's an important insight. Yeah. You feel okay, excellent. So you decide I'm gonna apply for medicine and you get into Nattel.

SPEAKER_04 26:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

So how does how does that go?

SPEAKER_04 26:21

It went well. It went well. Um it was not the easiest thing for me. Uh I was not the A student that finished in record time. Right. But I think the struggles that I had were not unique to me. You know, you find uh again in medical school, you find a community of high achievers, like-minded people. Um, and you make a lot of friends, most of whom I still have to to this day. Are you a day student or are you staying in res or I started off uh staying in res, which was also a wonderful experience because then you get a real melting pot of of people. So many people that were outside of or that came from outside of uh KZN at that time. So it was nice to meet people that spoke different languages. And uh initially my first year I stayed in a res that also had people that were not medical students.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

So, you know, um, even our academics were in the science block. So people were studying engineering and other sciences. So that was really interesting and quite important, I think, to learn other cultures and other languages.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

What made you stay in res? Because I'm guessing your home is nearby the university or not 100 kilometers away.

SPEAKER_04 27:45

Yeah, it was uh not far for sure. It was not far. But funny enough, my father was the one that encouraged me to stay in res.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 27:56

For the reasons that I've given. Yeah. Um, exposure to different people, how to live with people, um, which he had greatly benefited from. Right. Um, and I and I to this day I I definitely would recommend that experience. You know, the college uh and university experience is very unique. Yeah. And especially if you are in rest, you know, it it has a life of its own, the night life. And, you know, he wanted me to go to parties and do all of that.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

No, but your old man then tells me he's actually very deliberate in his thinking and calculating because he did give you the his honest view. I I don't recommend medicine.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

But once you've got into it, he said, okay, you've got to have the proper experience, yeah, you've got to expose yourself to all of this. Is that right?

SPEAKER_04 28:44

That's 100% correct. And he was right.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

And did he explain this rationale to you?

SPEAKER_04 28:48

Or you just absolutely, as I'm saying it to you, what he said was you will get exposed to different types of people.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

And you'll make very um important connections and networks.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

That is amazing.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

So he really encouraged me to stay in res for that reason. And that made a lot of sense to me. Towards the end of my uh studies, uh, we moved uh because then the Group Areas Act had been moved. And so we moved much closer. It was actually walking distance to medical school. So I became a day student after that. But my early years, uh up to fourth year, I I stayed in res.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Well well done to the old man. Because it's so much easier. I would just say, daughter, you're staying at home, I'll take you. He knows what what's good for you, and he that's amazing. Okay. So med school, you you were fine. St. Anne's, you said was your your high school, right? Was that an all-girls school?

SPEAKER_04 29:49

It was an all-girls school. So moving to medical school was also quite different. Um in in in certain ways. Being in boarding school, that type of boarding school with girls, I believe was quite beneficial.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

Right.

SPEAKER_04 30:06

In the sense that, you know, it I felt comfortable to compete. Um especially in those days, you know, you still had dynamics with society, you know, boys, girls, where you should be, and so forth. Um, so I think, you know, what what people say about being in in um in an all-girls school kind of allows you to feel comfortable as a as a girl, you know, without feeling that you cannot shine. You know.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

I get you.

SPEAKER_04 30:38

So I did, I did well. I loved boarding school because again, it offered me the opportunity to explore my other passions, which I love, which is around the the arts. I love I love the arts. You know, I was in the drama club.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:54

Uh I was in and out of um the band playing an instrument. Yeah. So, you know, you get to just really learn a lot about yourself and be creative. I was not very good at sports, I have to be honest. Um, I was too I loved netball.

SPEAKER_05 31:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:13

But uh by the time I got to high school, I I kind of my growth slowed down.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Okay, yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah. People thought I was gonna be tall, but I ended up average.

SPEAKER_04 31:23

Yeah, so I ended up not being because I my position was goal defense.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

All right, so you've got to be the tall person.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

You've got to be the tall person, yes. So and I wasn't fast enough. But you are quite tall. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

People won't see it on the yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:35

But I wasn't uh fast enough for for other positions and I just lacked the height, you know, to defend against the goal shoot. But when I moved to university, again, I really enjoyed that because I could um, you know, be with with different people from different from different uh walks of life. I think that was also the other insight, you know, because I'd had a a very, I would say to some extent, a very comfortable life. Yes, you know. Uh when you get to medical school, you meet people that um way ahead and uh people that maybe come from from uh different types of families in your own. And that opens your eyes up a little bit to the world.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Okay, so different walks of life, no longer the soft life at uh just like you're seeing people that come from all over. Yeah, I can relate. And then you know how it is, right? So, well, maybe you don't know, but when you speak to these people that qualified like decades ago, they'll say, you know, in my day university was proper, it was hard, we were taught the proper, but now you guys are too lax. And so I'm thinking, you're talking about back in the day, how was it hectic? Or was it what was it like actually studying in those days?

SPEAKER_04 32:49

It was it was challenging. Yeah. Yeah, it was challenging in the sense that um in the time the the period where I started medical school through to community service was of great transition.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:10

So I was in medical school when we had our first elections.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:18

And that period and uh the few years after that, so that was sort of like sort of at a society level, some of the major changes that were happening.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

That is major, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:29

Yeah. Uh but also, you know, there was a lot of restructuring of the health system at that time. So, for example, this was the first time that the hospitals were being consolidated. So I was not the first group, but one of the early groups when I by the time I did my internship that was working in a previously white hospital, uh, where the uh, you know, we had you know nursing staff that were predominantly white, although it was also transitioning. So and and white patients for the first time now getting this. Yeah, you know, so it was very, very challenging. And then to add on top of that is when uh you started seeing uh AIDS. Oh, AIDS you know, really taking its toll.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

So you had multiple layers of you know, challenges, I can imagine.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

Challenges and uh structural changes, very profound structural changes to to healthcare, but also just society as a whole.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

And how were the patients? You know, the the ones that are used to seeing their white doctors, how how do they treat you? Like I'll tell you a story I'll never forget. Because I did comserve at Standerton Hospital, right? And then I stayed on. Now, Standerton, it's a small town in a rural area in Pumalanga, mostly black residents, and then Afrikaans. So there was one old Afrikaans lady that sat on the chair, in the dental chair, waiting, and I walk in. And the first thing she says to me goes, Oh doctor, I'm so glad I got an Indian doctor and not a black doctor. Okay. And I now I was fuming inside, but I had to keep it straight on the outside and try and be as professional as I can. And all I said to her was, Oh, sorry, I'm black. And I walked around and I walked away. And I said, Somebody else will see you. I'll never forget that time because then one of my white colleagues went and saw this patient. And now this is now years after part eight has ended. So I can only imagine what it's like in that transition stage. Got any stories or any feelings? Oh, the many stories.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

To be fair, it was not all white patients or Indian patients, or even black patients for for that matter, right?

SPEAKER_03 36:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Um, who had that behavior.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

Um, it was the few. It was the few that um would would, you know, have preferences, if you will, yeah, and uh had were not used to having black doctors.

SPEAKER_03 36:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:17

But what I saw with with patients, and um, and this is something I think that is very that is universal with patients. Patients want to feel seen and heard.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

And for the most part, they may be a little bit icy at first because of their own prejudice. But once you have that connection with them and they feel that, oh, okay, you you understand them, you have time for them, you you um, you're not doing something that's completely different from what anybody else would have done in their own mind, you know, what is logical. But once they feel seen and they feel heard and they feel understood, that is where the trust happens. And I and I believe this is the same for any patient. So I think that was a big part of, you know, the how how that kind of evolved of my experience. But yes, there were some that unfortunately were just unrepented in their in their attitude. There's not much you can do with with that. But the biggest issues were not from the patients. The biggest issues for me were from the nursing staff. Oh. Right? Um, and from colleagues. Right. Yeah. That's where I observed that there were still remnants of distrust. So exactly your your you know, the example that you you gave. I recall doing my community service. So you know that there's a there there's a hierarchy. You had a student, then you have your intern, and then community service doctor, and a medical officer, and so forth.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

But you know, I do recall, you know, you you you see the patient, you you do your orders, um, and then the nurse, the white nurse, we call a white intern to review your work. Even though that's that's the junior to you, right? That is a junior, you know. Um so those are some of the challenges. But I think over time, that's sort of worked its way out, that it was not maybe not so overt. I will I don't want to say that it it has changed because I haven't been in that space for for many years.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

How did you deal with that kind of situation? I'll tell you I would have just been annoyed and I don't know. I you seem much more patient than me. The way you framed this whole discussion about it's actually the pa it's not the patience, it's the circumstances, is how I picked it up. So you seem to be quite a patient and tolerant person.

SPEAKER_04 38:51

I think over time and especially more recently, I've recognized the importance of not judging a situation or a person as good or bad.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

Yes. Uh I I've also recognized that I'm in control of me only. I don't have control over other individuals and some situations. It's not to say that I let microaggressions not happen. Yeah. Or I allow microaggressions to happen. Um and sometimes even overt issues that can can happen, you know. Um it does happen, and I do recall reporting white colleagues to their consultants. Even as uh a community service doctor, I I had a major falling out with a colleague who was overtly racist, you know. And um, but I've also learned to choose my battles, I've learned to advocate for the right things, to advocate for my patience, you know, um, and advocate for myself. Like if I will defend myself if that is direct. But there are ways I think in which, and I think it's important. This is what I also encourage uh my mentees also, you know, when we say pick your battles, we don't say don't go for the big battles. That's not what it means, yeah, right? It means be strategic, conserve your energy for the battles that are going to be the most effective, that will have the most impact, you know. Otherwise, literally, and this is how racism works. Literally, racism is intended to sap your energy. You will fight every single day, you know. Um, so if you are going to show up for a fight every single day, you'll be exhausted on petty things. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

And you'll just be miserable.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

You'll be miserable. You'll be distracted, you know, you'll be distracted from making the important changes. So that's always my advice is pick your battles, you know, be strategic about how you do things, but don't don't lay down, don't roll over and lay down for sure.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Yes, yes. That makes so much sense. I just I want to be your mentee now. You know, and on the thing is you're doing medicine, which is not easy. And on top of that, you've got these layers of you have to deal with racism from all aspects. You've got to study, you've got to also live your life. And uh it's you know, hats off to you. So, but the university was fine and you studied and you got through.

SPEAKER_04 41:29

I loved university. I actually looking back, it's one of the phases of my life or one of the periods of my life. I wish I had let my hair down a little bit more. Is it? Okay. I think I was a little bit too serious about it. Yeah. Um, but I had good friends, you know. But I really wish I had let my my hair down a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Why were you too focused on studies?

SPEAKER_04 41:52

Focused on studying, you know, trying to to to not be a naughty person. You know, but yeah. All right. Probably I wish I had attended a few more parties and and so on. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

And then what happens after uni? Like you go to internship and then ComServe.

SPEAKER_04 42:12

Yes. So I went back to Peter Maritzburg because uh my high school St. Anne's was in uh Hilton, which is just outside Peter Maritzburg. I did my internship at Gray's North Dale Complex. So again, at that time, the health system was now consolidating to many different health systems. So if you remember, uh apartheid was very inefficient. You had a health system for Indians and hospitals and services and staff for Indians, for whites, for Africans, and so forth. So it was during that shift, and uh what was what had happened is that the hospital complex was Grays, which was previously white, and North Dale, which was previously Indian. So I spent two years in that uh complex for my internship. At that time, we had a one-year internship and a one year of community service.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:07

And it was really a very good time. Also, I learned a lot. But it also showed me, you know, the different, you know, the different demographics and, you know, the and exposed me to different health issues, you know, and conditions and how they differed by race, right? So you had um we had Africans and they would have sort of their own profile, you know, and Indians would have a very different uh profile as well as as well as white people.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Well Was it down to community or just like uh pri uh priorities or what was the Yes.

SPEAKER_04 43:47

So I think certainly there are some genetic factors, of course. Okay but socioeconomic factors. So, you know, with uh white people it was mostly diseases of lifestyle. Um similarly with Indians, you know, you they you know, we would see more diabetes. That's where I really hold diabetes, hypertension. Um, and then with Africans it was more tuberculosis and uh infectious diseases. Right. So it was a lot of the socioeconomic factors, really. And it you could tell, you could sort of predict uh very easily what was likely to be the conditions based on the race, you know. And I don't think that has changed a lot today, although it is, you know, you're getting more of the disease of lifestyle in different race groups, but it kind of helped me also understand the impact of apartheid and poverty on race and and that um yeah, on race at that time and health outcomes and health outcomes too. Because, you know, the you you can imagine, um, if you know Peter Marisberg, to if you are poor and black and you may be in a rural area, that is when you would see the difference in the health outcomes. I'll give you an example which I'll never forget. When I was doing my community service, I that was a time that I cried in theater. I literally cried in theater. We had uh a case of, you know, I was doing my obstetrics and gynecology irritation, and uh then, you know, they called us. There was a patient that was in a peripheral hospital who was expected to come in for a cesarean section and uh just for fetal distress, right? Otherwise, you know, very good uh pregnancy. It took the ambulance hours, hours and hours and hours to arrive. And by the time that the patient had arrived, you know, um, there were some complications with the with the baby. And knowing that this could have been preventable and that it would not have happened had she had closer proximity or lived close to the hospital, you know, that that really made me very, very sad. And I remember, you know, taking the baby out and literally crying in theater. And my my medical officer was very supportive, you know, he understood. And uh, you know, I'm I still remember, you know, how much I appreciated him explaining to me what was happening, right? Explaining to me, you know, how what I was feeling was not because I'm a bad doctor, but it was because of the structure of the health system.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

That you because you got emotional, did you think, okay, am I Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 46:54

You know, we are trained to be very stoic in medicine, you know. And I think to some extent it is necessary, you know. You you have to in an emergency uh you have to keep a cool head. Yes. You cannot be faced by blood and uh guts and you know all those things. So for me, I I've I uh I think that that really got to me. That was the depth of it. Because it was not so much that I was faced by the the the outcome per se. There'd been others, but just knowing the story behind this really got to me.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

The circumstances of what you think it's so unfair. Okay. So you do your internship com serv and you what's next? What are you thinking of? Are you thinking I'm gonna specialize or because I mean I know the what comes next, but I have to unpack this. And clearly you have what's the word, restless feet, because you're from one place to the next. So what happens next?

SPEAKER_04 47:53

I'm glad you said that. And and this is actually, you know, as I've gotten older, something that I've uh recognized as uh what I call a saboteur, yeah. Uh the restlessness, you know, always gotta be doing something, judging myself doing something different.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:11

But I I decided to do locums in the UK, which was another sort of transition for us at that time. You know, as I said to you, there were just so many um changes, but not all changes were negative. Okay. So what happened is that with the end of a partage, then it also opened up a lot of doors for us and a lot of new opportunities. So even as black people were getting opportunities that we were not privy to, and not just us as black people, but also as doctors. So this was one of the opportunities we know we had a lot of a very aggressive recruitment of South African doctors and dentists too. Yes, and professionals.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Why did they want that explained for the for me also? Because I don't actually why do they want South African doctors and dentists?

SPEAKER_04 49:02

Well, it which will sound a little bit conceited. Um my view and my belief is that um I and I still believe that even to this day, we are very, very well trained. And I'll I'll give you a reason why I say say that. For example, when we uh when I was in the UK, and that includes nurses as well, when I was in the UK, I found that um some of the say procedures that I has had done as an intern or even as a student, like just inserting a catheter, for example, in a male patient, uh, you know, they were done by more senior people. So the level at which certain procedures were being done. So the exposure, hands-on exposure, especially to procedures, the responsibility, for me it started much earlier. Um another example would be when I went to the UK, because I also met a lot of South African nurses there. They would get into trouble a lot because they were doing, you know, procedures like inserting a drip and uh, you know, giving antibiotics for them. Which is standard, which is what you know, nurses, student nurses were doing here. So I think there was a big demand for South African doctors. So many of us went to the UK, uh, also to uh Australia and to New Zealand. Yeah. For me, I really went to the UK out of curiosity.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

Right.

SPEAKER_04 50:40

And uh many of my colleagues had gone to travel. Yeah. Yes. So that's when for me I think the travel bug really hit. Yeah. Because I've never been out of the country until that point. So I really wanted to travel and I did that. You know, I really enjoyed that part of it.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

So what what do you do as a doctor there in the UK? Yeah. GP, NHS, all that does it exist then?

SPEAKER_04 51:04

Yeah. So there was the NHS, and um I worked as a resident medical officer. So meaning that I stayed in the hospital or a week or up to two weeks at a time.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:17

And uh just was basically on call, you know, 24 hours. It was not the most challenging work, uh, but it was interesting because uh I was also able to, although I was primarily in the private sector, uh, I also did, you know, some locums in the NHS. Okay. And that's where I really got interested in in public health as well. Yeah. Because the NHS at that time just really talk talked to what we the the conversation we're having now in South Africa about universal health care, you know, when we have the conversation about NHI. So seeing it there, not that it was perfect. Absolutely, it was not perfect. I saw some of the challenges, long waiting lists and certain things. But I I saw many aspects of it that um I felt worked, you know, including lowering the cost of healthcare and making healthcare more accessible. Not perfect uh for sure, but um, it really got my curiosity about uh public health and uh universal healthcare.

SPEAKER_01 52:30

So then the restless fit had to move on.

SPEAKER_04 52:32

The restless fit came back to South Africa.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

You traveled enough and you'd seen UK and everywhere else.

SPEAKER_04 52:39

Oh, I I loved traveling around the UK. I also traveled to Switzerland, uh to Germany. I I I really enjoyed that part of it.

SPEAKER_03 52:50

Lovely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:51

Um and then came back to South Africa after two years. And uh I became a registrar in public health medicine for a couple of years.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

So registrar, just unpack it for people that don't know. That's like somebody that's training to specialize.

SPEAKER_04 53:05

Correct, correct. And it was it was in public health medicine, yes. It was a good program, but I I think there were aspects of it that I didn't enjoy. Yes. I think what it did do for me, because it's a very broad program as well, uh, it helped me to identify and drill down to the part that I loved, which was data and epidemiology. Okay. Yes. And so um I then later on, much later on, um explored that and uh did my master's in clinical epidemiology. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

So do you sp do you finish this the specialty?

SPEAKER_04 53:45

I don't finish the specialty.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

The restless feet had to move on again.

SPEAKER_04 53:47

They moved on very quickly to where to Bara.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

All right, yes. Uh Chris Honey, Baragona. The third biggest hospital in the world.

SPEAKER_04 53:56

The third biggest hospital in the world. What possessed you to do this in and I think the largest in the southern hemisphere, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:03

I think in Africa, yeah, southern hemisphere must be. Yeah, of course. Why?

SPEAKER_04 54:09

Um it's just restless feet, you know. Um, but the best decision I could have made.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

But wait, wait, wait. Before you get because isn't bearer come with like people are afraid of bearer. They know you if you go work there, you're gonna be working hard and to the bone, and so you you wanted this.

SPEAKER_04 54:28

I didn't know much. And again, uh I I just knew that I needed to move on.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Right.

SPEAKER_04 54:33

And for the reasons that you have said, it's why I say it's one of the best decisions that I ever made. Because from it's a very, very complex hospital. A very complex hospital, in the sense that although it is a tertiary hospital, for the most part, in my view, I s I I understood the it's probably a hospital that is loved, if I can put it that way.

SPEAKER_03 55:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:02

The the history of the hospital with the community of Soweto is so tidy knit, you know. Um, and I really sense the connection, if that makes sense. And you know, the history of Soweto is not complete without Chrisani Baragwanath Hospital. Well, at that time it was um, yeah, it was already Chrisani Baragwanath Hospital. Because, you know, throughout the 70s, it was really the only hospital that Sowetins could could go to. And uh certainly in the 80s and 90s, there was a lot of violence. And so it was a very busy hospital and the main hospital that was that was serving them. So again, when I went there, you know, the the cis the health system was transitioning to where primary health care was starting to flourish or or uh be more entrenched.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 55:56

And um I found a society and a community that was resisting going to to the clinic. You know, they wanted to go to their hospital.

SPEAKER_03 56:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:05

So I loved that about the hospital that, you know, the community was really around it. And um, that was my sense in any case. And they loved the hospital. Yeah. So when I went there, uh I was given because I was still very wet behind the ears. This was still very new. They asked me to look after the pediatrics department, because I stuck the smallest one.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Oh, okay. Because I'm thinking pediatrics sounds super something that's not for people that's wet behind the ears.

SPEAKER_04 56:33

I don't know. Yes. So just because of the size, it's because of the size. You know, as I said, it's a huge hospital. So surgery, med, internal medicine, all of those were very complex. So they said, okay, since you you're still young in this field and we're gonna mentor you. And I was uh very grateful. I had um, I had I I have been, you know, privy to and had the privilege of having mentors.

SPEAKER_03 57:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:00

So all the doctors that were senior clinical executives, this was a senior level position, just really, you know, supported me. That's lovely. Yes. And um so I learned a lot um from that time, especially around leadership. Um and in in with hindsight, it was possibly the best place for me to um to get my baptism of fire, if you will. You know, uh, because I I really got to understand the complexities of organizations.

SPEAKER_03 57:36

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 57:36

Because for the first time, I'm not really in a clinical position. So that was the one challenge that I had to adjust to transitioning from a clinical to a non-clinical position. Oh, so what were you doing there? So it was like what you would call a superintendent role. So it was management, administrative issues, um, you know, supporting the clinical activities, working with the heads of departments, uh, you know, the human resources.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

That's a lot of responsibility. It was a lot of responsibility. For somebody that's fresh. Very fresh out of the UK and Yes.

SPEAKER_04 58:11

It was a lot of responsibility. Um, and that's why I said I had to sink or swim. You know, I had to sink or swim. And um, but fortunately, I think it would have been a disaster had it not been for the other colleagues that that supported me. So any little issue that I was not familiar with, you know, I could take back to them and they they would guide me on how to how to manage it.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

It's great to hear because it's not a common thing that I hear nowadays, but maybe it's just I'm hanging around the wrong people.

SPEAKER_04 58:43

But yeah, it's uh I have found it difficult to understand how that happened. Um, and possibly because of my own journey. Yes. There was a very short gap in my career to date where I've not had mentors. For the most part, I've had mentors. And that short period where I didn't have a mentor, I was confused. I just like, what what happened now? Like, what's this? You know, I don't have a mentor. Because I've always I'd always assumed that the people around you, and especially your seniors and your managers, mentor you.

SPEAKER_01 59:25

Okay. You know. It's good to hear because I was about to say that maybe there's something about you that lends yourself to being mentored. And maybe, you know, you always hear people complaining, ah, nobody wants to help me. Maybe it's actually those people. But so you're saying there was a gap in your career where you'd experienced the other side of a lack of thereof.

SPEAKER_04 59:46

Correct, correct. And I in looking back now to your point, uh, you're 100% correct. I think it was also a period where I didn't seek mentorship. You know, I think I had uh I was in that position, trusting in myself and assuming that where I would have gaps or where I had shortcomings, the mentors would automatically come. So my key takeaway from that period, you know, is to judge the lesson from just that uh period and takeaway a lesson, which is you also have to seek mentorship.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:22

Yeah, it won't automatically come, you know. It's a two-way process, you know. So it's what I also encourage people to do. Look for a mentor, you know, it can really help you to be more comfortable and uh to achieve more. Yes, you know, you don't have to go the long route of making mistakes on your own when there are people who could be willing to mentor you. And when you mentor somebody, you also learn, you know, from that person's uh experience and what they're going through.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

So, Bera, it you you survive.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:57

I survive, I survive, and uh and then I took a short break, you know, to do locums, uh various and sundry. I did um uh solo GP practice for a short period of time.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

In Joe Burg?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:17

In uh in Pretoria. So I'm back in Pretoria now, so I didn't go back to Domus. So when I came back from uh the UK, I settled in Pretoria, which I really also love to this day. I I think there's a persona, Pretoria persona.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

It's got its own feel, yeah. Pretoria.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:35

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's got its own um sort of vibe as well. And uh yeah, so I did uh solo GP practice. I also got exposure to the insurance um industry. So I was part of the traveling group that would do medicals for uh private insurance uh companies.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:57

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:57

And I also uh consulted. Right. Yeah. So that was also very uh very, very interesting. And then uh around 2008 is now I would say the next phase of my career, which is probably the longest, was when I worked in nonprofit organizations or NGOs. Yeah, what do you do there? So I started off as a project uh manager in uh one organization. So again, this was uh another big change in the health system where for the first time we were now rolling out anti-retrovirals. So we were putting behind us that period of just, you know, the trauma uh when I was uh an internant community service officer of doing a call where you would start your day admitting patients, and a big part of your day the following day is signing death certificates because of uh AIDS death. Sure. Yeah. So now going into this phase, and I'd lost a lot of family as well. I'd lost family members to AIDS at that time. So it really called me. I was really excited to be part of the HIV uh AIDS response. And I worked in the nonprofit um as a project manager. So it was really about scaling up services, making sure at that time that the facilities were ready and providing technical support. Yeah. Um, there was also a lot of investment um in HIV testing. Okay. Yeah. So uh I started doing a lot of HIV prevention work because it's not only about, of course, testing, but how to prevent HIV. So I did that for for many, many years and uh moving with different organizations.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:04

Um working in the in the HIV space till about 2016. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

So the feet were not restless for the quite a long time for the change at least. And then what happens?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:18

So the feet were not restless because that period was very dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:24

You know, we were setting up, as I said, um facilities. When I started, it was just about getting facilities ready. Okay. By the time I left, I had also become drawn to uh as a group of uh the population called key populations, we call key populations. So people who were at high risk, you know, they were previously called most at risk populations or risk of HIV who didn't have the same kind of uh dynamics uh in terms of uh the epidemiology of HIV and the risk of of HIV acquisition. So I became quite interested in uh working with um people who inject drugs, sex workers, men who have sex with men, you know, and and transgender uh people. Um you know, you there there is a different way of you know structuring your your HIV care and treatment programs for that group of people. Okay. So that's that's that's how I started getting into that. And that was a very interesting and engaging place for me. So that's how I sort of remained in the HIV space. So I evolved, but within within the same uh space. So uh 2016, I then uh went back, or rather, 2017 at this point. I went back into self-employment. Um I uh went into group GP practice, which I also loved. Because I hadn't been close to the patient for a long time, that was uh very interesting to me as well to to kind of hone, you know, and see where the healthcare system was in regards to the patients. A lot of things had changed by that time. Um, but I also continue to consult and provide clinical services and um still also within key population. So that's where two to three times a week I'd go into the CBD and which CB in Petroya or in Johannesburg. This is a Joebook CBD, yeah. You know, um and provide services, clinical services for people who inject drugs.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:54

And that was also a different side of it. So again, you know, I've always talked about these uh paradoxes of working in a suburban, upmarket GP practice, you know, where most people have medical aids, yeah, professionals. And then a few times a week I go and I work with people who are uh homeless. Yes, you know, in in the CBD.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

I mean, that paradox, it's not something that's new because it started from growing up, you know. Correct. Township burbs. Now it's just a different sort of uh setting, but similar.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:34

Yeah. And it's again, it's it's something that I I I I'm grateful that I had that upbringing in order to be able to recognize it. Yes, you know. And again, it speaks to how our country still is. There are still these divisions, you know, where you have haves and the and the have-nots, you know, um, and the extremes of of poverty and extremes of of conditions, and extremes in terms of access to healthcare.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:07

You you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

And how is it going into CBD and Joburg? Because the CBD and Joburg is notorious for being, you know, a place that you wouldn't necessarily just take a drive at night or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:18

Absolutely. It absolutely um probably I wouldn't go alone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

How did it work?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:24

But how it worked was again, you know, that that was my sentiment when I first started. I mean, how is this going to work out? And by the end of it, you know, I I I felt so comfortable with it. What changed for me was really looking at the patients that I was working with and serving as human beings.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:54

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:55

So when you start to when you recognize that and they recognize that you are not judging them for the circumstances that they are in, there is a sense of safety that comes with that. So the patients that we had in the clinic, again, they were, I would say, the community, when I talked to you about how the Sowetins viewed BARA.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:22

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:23

We had a small clinic um, you know, in in Yofield, was co-located in Yofield, and it was specifically for um patient, these patients who who injected drugs mostly were homeless.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:36

They loved the clinic. They loved that clinic. It was their clinic. There was a sense of, so doing from our perspective, a sense of belonging, you know. So and they knew the people that worked there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:48

A safe space.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:48

It was a safe space. And so, although I didn't use public transport and some of our colleagues use public transport, they would say the same thing. They felt very safe after leaving the clinic. Nobody would touch them because they knew that the patients uh understood the importance of the work that they were doing and the nurses too. So, again, for me, my learning is that healthcare facilities can play a very important role in in this in the community.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:21

Yes. Yes. If there's a connection between the healthcare worker and the patient, right? Because I'm guessing when you started there, as much as you might have been a bit apprehensive about them, likewise they would have probably been like, who is this new doctor now? Does she know what this is all about, type of thing?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:37

Exactly. And will she treat us with respect? Because the, you know, the groups that I mentioned are, you know, they also tend to be marginalized and judged very heavily by society.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:50

Definitely.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:51

So it's very important that, and this would be my advice also for anybody that is curious or interested in working with uh marginalized groups, any kind of marginalized groups, you know, you have to have the right mindset and the heart. If you are going to hold judgment because somebody injects drugs or is a sex worker or is transgender, you are not really being in service to that person, you know. So if you remove the judgment and you look at the patient as somebody that is in front of you and you treat them that you would treat any other person in, you know, your upmarket facility. That's where the trust gets built. And when patients trust you, you know, you can be their accountability partner as they take their health journey. You know, they be free to ask you questions about their medication or to get advice and be comfortable with you. That's uh and that's important, especially for uh programs like HIV or for chronic programs where you really need to, you know, you have a long-term plan with uh with clients. You need to be supportive.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:05

So the trust and the connection is actually therapeutic. And I do they teach you guys that in in in school? Like I feel like when I did dentistry, right? It wasn't emphasized that uh you might be the most technically sound and know the textbook back to front. But if your patient doesn't have the connection with you, it's gonna affect the therapeutic relationship.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:27

It's it's I think it's so key.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:29

Something I didn't share with you about my medical school is that um at the time, many of the professors and uh senior doctors intuitively showed us that. That's how they were in our training.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:46

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:47

Um I don't think it's a coincidence that if you look at most of our ministers of health, they come from my my alma mater, my medical school.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:00

Because what I learned to that medical school is that you are also a patient advocate. Yes. So, well, politics is one of the ways that you you can advocate, at least on a policy level. But there were so many doctors that were advocating for for patients using their own resources, using their own connections to make sure that the circumstances and the situations of patients were were right, you know, they were correct. So I don't want to say something that came intuitive from me or just it was just who I am, although I believe everybody has that capability. But I think my training at that time at the University of Natal Medical School, you know, just inculcated that in us. And that's why I, you know, I I've had these questions from a colleague Greasy, like, what did you they teach you? Why are you guys always in politics? It looks like all the doctors from the University of Natal Medical School ended up in politics.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:01

Yeah. Patient advocacy.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:03

Patient advocacy, that's what it was. Um, I remember a pediatrician, uh, Professor Couvadia, he's late now.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:10

Yeah. Isn't there a book by him or something? A big famous textbook. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:14

That's right. Yeah. But uh I had the privilege of being uh in his firm, you know, when we did when he did our peace rotations.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:23

And I remember him getting extremely angry um at a patient's circumstances, not that what you know that had led to the patient being there. And um and he mentioned, you know, he was he was also very uh you know well connected, I believe, and said he's gonna speak to certain people because this is not acceptable. You know. So that is the kind of uh, you know, um consultant and professor that that I had. And there were many of them, you know, who would get visibly angry about the circumstances of the patient, not the patient, but you know, but the circumstances of the patient. So it's something that I think I I understood and um you know carried into that situation working with with other people.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

Okay. Yeah. Fascinating. And then is is Big Pharma next or not?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:16

Uh Big Pharma came after the case. What's yeah, what what is next? What is next was clinical research for a short period of time.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:27

And I also loved that. I loved clinical research.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:30

Where does this come from? Why it's uh Are you getting bored or not necessarily? I'm asking what I think people are gonna be thinking in their minds. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:42

So one thing that I and it's a good question. Maybe I haven't quite thought through ex you know, everything. Yeah. There are many factors, and uh, you know, depending on which position, there are different uh reasons for me pivoting. Okay. Yes. Uh sometimes it's just the opportunity would come, sometimes it would be a behead hunted. Yeah. Sometimes I'd get an offer, you know, that just generally would be better in terms of um the, you know, the actual offer or the package. Yes. Um many times it was just uh I need I'm I'm comfortable, I've learned all I have here. I'm looking to expand my skills, you know. And sometimes it was all of the above, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:29

I think it's so important that we talk about this because I'm not sure that potential med students even know that this thing opens up so many doors. Like you would just think, okay, I'm gonna be a doctor, I might uh specialize, or I might become a GP. End of story. So your story is like super important for people to hear. And that's why I want to I'm making sure to say what's next, what's next, what's next. It's not like I just want to go through a list, but I want to expose people vicariously to what you've been exposed to. Because it's a unique story.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:01

And thank you for highlighting this. And I think increasingly now, because of where we are, and it's certainly COVID, I think, had a huge role to play in that. There's this awareness now that doctors have that, you know, there are so many ways that I can apply my medical degree. One thing I I I always correct with uh people is when they say, I left medicine.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:30

I was about to talk about that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:33

Absolutely not. What do you think? Absolutely not. I'm just applying my medical degree in a non-clinical setting. That's what I did. Because every single role that I've had, that's what I did. I just applied my medical knowledge and my degree.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:46

Um So you didn't go and milk the system, waste a space in med school, and then you're still using it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:52

So often people, when they there's a guilt for for many reasons, right? Sometimes it is look, Dr. Yesh, your family's, you know, mom is going around telling people, my son, my son, the doctor. Yeah, yeah. You know, and then obviously people would want, you know, where's his practice? Where can I go and and see him, you know. So that might be the the issue that you sort of caught up in this, you know, I have to be a clinician, you know. Um you could have a situation where perhaps it was not really the best, your first choice, you did it, and you're not fulfilled. You're not really not fulfilled with with patients, you know. Uh, one of my colleagues um told me, he told me in medical school already that I really don't enjoy working with patients. Medicine is not what I thought it was going to be. And he's a radiologist today, so he's quite happy. He loves the science and the physics of it. But because he's been through medical school, he's applied everything that he knows in radiology in a in a discipline and a specialty that doesn't require for him to interact in the same way. There's some patient interaction, but not in the same way as, for example, a physician uh might have to. So there are many reasons why I think you know, people need to redefine the doctor identity for themselves. What does it mean for me to be a doctor when I don't have a patient in front of me? Uh, you know, as I shared with you, I uh worked with um many different um communities. And when I was working with key populations, I remember a relative of mine, you know, saying to me, so you went and you spent a whole day with sex workers, and um are you still a doctor? You know? So just a lack of understanding and appreciation that we were discussing healthcare issues and that healthcare is not about only doctors, healthcare is about the communities that you serve. So it is so broad, you know. And it's the same mindset when I went into pharma, you know, uh really understood that I was applying my medical knowledge to commercialize, you know, healthcare products, you know, whether, you know, whether you choose to be in devices or drugs, you know, medication. So it's just about you don't stop being a doctor. And then there was a time I went back to clinical medicine too. Yeah. And I was quite fine and satisfied with that as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:39

And you wouldn't have been able to do any of the stuff that you're talking about now without that foundation, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:44

Correct, correct. So what people don't appreciate is that medicine can actually open up so many more doors for you. And uh it doesn't mean that if you choose a non-clinical role, firstly that you lose being you're no longer a doctor.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:01

And it doesn't mean that you cannot ever go back to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:05

You're still a doctor.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:06

You're still a doctor. And there are many people who do both, you know. There are many people who love the patient experience. So I've worked with many colleagues who in pharma, for example, who are doing locals on the weekend, just to still keep their clinical skills, you know, up to date. You know. So it doesn't, it doesn't change you as a person. You still have your MPCHB.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:30

You know.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:31

So I don't want to skip too much. So you must take me back if I am, but I wanted to know, you said it opens doors. What's the latest door? And where are you and what are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:41

So the latest door for me is is uh coaching. Right. Yeah. Um, you know, you remind me my my sister-in-law said to me, you know, Nondimiso, you you are the queen of reinventing yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:56

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:57

And uh I appreciated that, you know. I thought about it, I thought it was a compliment. But I felt like it's a compliment because it has served me well. You know, I feel my experience is so broad that I can serve my clients even better. Right. You know, if I have a client in pharma, which I do now, I have clients that are in pharma, that are in clinical, that are in research, that are in private practice. I I kind of have this full understanding that I'm in leadership roles, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:28

What is coaching? What is coaching?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:29

Oh, great questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:30

Dumb it down for a person like me who's open.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:36

It's it's worth talking about coaching and separating it from mentorship maybe and therapy. Okay. Yes. Because often the two get used interchangeably, mentoring and uh coaching.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:47

That's what I'm thinking in my head.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:49

Yes, yes. So mentorship is what you and I are very familiar with. Okay. Right? In the sense that when you have to do your procedures, you don't know exactly which instrument is this. So somebody came and taught you is this and this and that, then you take this much an aesthetic, and they're literally holding your hand. Right, okay. So with mentorship, the mentor has uh a lot more involvement and is more instructive, right? And teaches more uh compared to to coaching. In coaching, what we do is we we assume that you have every resource that you have internally to be able to think through situations. And so the coach is you, I will not tell you what to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:42

Yes, I would not tell you what to do. So it lends itself very well, for example, and this is the majority of people that we that I coach, certainly, to people who are feeling stuck. So the typical person that would come to me would be somebody that is has many options ahead of them, but they're not quite quite sure which direction to move. Okay. So they have their internal resources. And what we do as coaches is to hold space for people to think through their options and to move forward on their options. And a lot of that involves enhancing self-awareness and also identifying self-limiting beliefs. Okay. Yes. So we walk through them through those types of issues. So some of the typical self-limiting beliefs would be, you know, around areas such as imposter syndrome, you know, people procrastinating, uh, you know, people not moving forward because of fear of failure or even fear of success. You know. So those are some of the issues that we're able to coach people through. But it is very much forward-looking. And it is uh where the coache or the client is the one that is doing most of the of the work and the thinking and the strategizing. Yeah. And we serve as a thinking partner and an accountability partner.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:15

So you help people figure stuff out without them even realizing that you're helping them almost. It's like you're guiding them, but they got to figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:24

Right. So, you know, we we have aha moments. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We have aha moments. You know. Um, and that's where the the beauty of coaching is, is when you realize, oh, actually, I have this strength, or this would be the best way for me to.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:42

And we do this by essentially asking you questions, as I said, just to hold the space and guiding you through very structured in a structured way to get to a point where you will have your aha moments that will help you to move forward.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:58

So I don't come to you and say, Doc, and you say to me, Yesh, this is your problem, X, Y, Z. It's more, you figure it out. Yes, is going to figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:06

Correct. I trust and I will show you that actually you know how to figure it out. You know what you what you want.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:13

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:14

You know what you want. You know how to achieve it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:17

But now with your experience, I would think it lends itself to coaching or doctors that are in this situation. Is that what you do?

SPEAKER_04 1:26:26

That is exactly what I do. Yes. So now I'm based in the US. Um I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:32

I didn't like wasn't I wasn't pretending to say that that then knowing that you do this, but is that what you do? That's exactly what I do.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:38

That's exactly what I do. I coach doctors. My company is called Ubuntu Doctor Coaching. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:44

It's the doctors in there. I saw the Ubuntu.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:47

Yes, Ubuntu Doctor Coaching. And that's because I focus on I focus on doctors. Um because I think, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:56

Wait, where are you? In the US.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:58

In the US, yes. I'm based in the US.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:01

Can we before we talk about the coaching thing? How did you get there? How does this happen? So my husband, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:07

No, no, it's not personal. My husband is um is American.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:10

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:11

Yes. So um now the kids are grown. So I've been putting it off for a well, how did you end up in in America? Like, did you meet on travels or yes, you know, life takes you, you meet people.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:24

It wasn't because of uh Donald Trump's recent order. You didn't go across as a refugee or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:29

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:31

We wouldn't have qualified anyway. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:34

It was uh we we were married, you know, been married for some time now. Also medical field or no, my husband is in academia. Right. He's in academia. Um, but um, yeah, we met in, you know, in, you know, obviously um it was in research at the time. Yes. So that was basically where we could.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:57

How long have you been in the States for? Like this is my

SPEAKER_04 1:28:00

Year now. All right. Yeah, this is my second year.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:02

And you're coaching doctors in are you getting the Americans over or all sorts or South Africans or yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:11

So I coach doctors um globally.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:15

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:15

And that's I think is the lovely thing about where we are now in terms of virtual 2019. Yes, correct. You know, and that's one of the as I said to you, I try not to judge a situation. COVID was devastating, absolutely. But I think one of the positives that came out of it is the growth of virtual consulting. So my clients um come from the US and uh mainly US and South Africa.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:44

Um, I work with another firm for mainly for the US uh clients.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:49

Um but I've had clients, you know, from uh Switzerland, from uh Rwanda, uh Kenya, Tanzania.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:58

So now your I'm calling them patients. I know they're not patients, but now your patients are doctors.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:03

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:04

So you are serving people that serve others.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:07

And that is the best service. That is what wakes me up in the morning. That's what wakes me up in the morning. Knowing that there is a doctor that is at their full potential. If I can help that doctor to be at their full potential, knowing what they do on a day-to-day basis, whether they are in clinical care and seeing patients, knowing that they are showing up not feeling burnt out and stressed because we've worked together on managing their work-life balance, you know, or knowing that they are a good leader if they're if they're in leadership roles. Yeah. Their team is happy, you know. That that that that's what wakes me up in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:51

That's another thing we have in common because I also serve my day job is to help doctors and dentists and clinicians when they're in trouble medical legally. Yes. It's such a great feeling to be able to help people that help people. Correct. And you've got it, you've got the credentials because they know you're not just somebody that's gonna be asking them random questions. You've been there, you've worked in it, you've been in the trenches, you've been in non-clinical, interesting stuff. So it's a it's a relatively new venture, I'm I'm assuming, or have you been doing this for a while?

SPEAKER_04 1:30:24

Well, I think I have been doing it informally. Okay, yes, right. Um I think we do uh uh do a lot of mentorship and coaching as a medical community for each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:36

Um, but when I started thinking about formalizing it, uh, was uh I had a role where the clients were doctors.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:49

And uh so many of them, because they they understood I had different experiences, you know, you build up uh, you know, relationships with them and they get comfortable with you and they start asking you, hey, you know, um, you know, I've got this challenge, especially senior doctors, leaders. I've got this challenge, and you know, I'm stressed about this, and you know, they would ask you for advice. And I realized actually my experiences were very valuable. You know, I could give them advice. Like there was there were so many common challenges.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:24

And it didn't matter, you know, where they were.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:29

But especially, for example, around leadership, for many doctors, the transition from clinical to non-clinical is very stressful. And I could see myself uh in their patterns too. I could see the struggles and the challenges that I had, I could see the mistakes that I had made that they were also repeating. Yes, you know, and so that really helped me say, well, perhaps there's value for me that uh there's value that I can add, rather, you know, to their career to make it a little bit easier to navigate some of these issues. And it's working. And it's working so that they don't have to go through what I went through, you know. Okay. Um there's value, of course, in in challenges, you know, you build your resilience, you build your skills, but there's also huge inefficiencies that can come from that. So, you know, if you could have somebody that will help you to build your own resilience and work things out on your own, but also just to feel seen and heard and and and for somebody to say, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, you know. Um, and have another doctor have the compassion, you know, um, to say it's okay. You know, that that for me was where I realized that, you know, I could really formalize this now and um make myself fully available to to colleagues to support them.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:04

Are you keeping it exclusive for to doctors or no no, not at all.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:10

Not at all. I think for now I'm still growing with doctors. You know, uh for sure. I I do see myself and hopefully as my business grows, um, even if it means bringing on other uh uh healthcare professionals, certainly in the healthcare space, maybe dentists, uh for sure, or even nurses. I've even had queries from nurses too. Yeah, um, I do see myself maybe partnering and working closely together with um with other uh healthcare professionals. I recently did a uh an Instagram live conversation with a chiropractor, you know, and uh they you know in our system they allied health uh professionals. So the the issues are universal. The issues are universal, you know, um, because the health system is structured the way that it is, and we talked about burnout and how to prevent it. So these issues are are very common.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:08

So where can they find you? I mean, you Instagram or Yes, I like LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:13

LinkedIn um I like LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:15

LinkedIn is that's where you found each other too. People, my colleagues laugh at me. They're like, yes, you are overdoing it on LinkedIn. I'm like, you know what? I love it. It's probably my favorite social media platform. As lame as that sounds, I love it.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:27

Yeah, I had uh probably I I like LinkedIn because it was initially quite difficult for me to feel comfortable on LinkedIn without feeling like I'm talking to my colleagues. It was a little bit intimidating at first. Right. When I really started to relax and enjoy it more, is I started getting inboxes, messages.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:51

Um, even if it was not necessarily people who needed coaching. People were saying, you know, I love your content, it's giving me a lot of courage. It's I can relate to it, it's so informative. Please keep it up, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:06

It's difficult to do, isn't it? People think that the ones that are active on LinkedIn just love to talk about themselves and brag and show off. And obviously, there's gonna be people that think that about you and me and whoever I've got a podcast, they're gonna think this guy loves to hear his own voice. Yes. But I feel like the the the moment I started enjoying it properly was when I realized that there's a thing called noise and there's a thing called signal. And you've got to learn to drown out the noise. There will always be that noise. Yes. And you're talking about the signal now, it's the inbox messages that come, which is the most important.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:41

Yes. And that told me that what I'm doing is also important. If if just from one post somebody can say, oh, this is my story I can relate, or if it makes a difference in terms of encouraging them and saying, Oh, you know, what you're going through is is is is it's not you, you know. Um, that that for me is very rewarding about LinkedIn. So I spend most of my time. Yeah, I'm not trying to do a lot more videos on LinkedIn, although I'm a bit camera shy.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:12

Um, but yeah, I enjoy LinkedIn. So that is under my name, Dr. Nondumisomakunga Stevenson. I do have an Ubuntu Doctor coaching page. But I do have Where's that also on LinkedIn? On uh on LinkedIn. Yeah. I do have accounts on Instagram and uh and Facebook as well. Right. My um, but on Facebook is only the business page. My uh Facebook, my personal Facebook page is uh is is personal. Yeah. But Instagram, you can find me both under the company and uh the the personal one. It's it's dr underscore non dumiso on um on Instagram. That's my username.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:53

And if you want to sign up as a client to be coached, where do we where do we go?

SPEAKER_04 1:36:57

Yes, you can contact me directly. I'm sure I can um give you my in contact information as well. What I like to do is have a discovery call. You know, coaching is so personal.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:09

So I'd I I'd like for any client to also assess whether they'd like to work with me, uh-huh, you know, yeah, um, and whether we we connect. For example, I find I don't enjoy business coaching so much, but I do have people that uh ask for business coaching and I refer them to to other people. Um, or sometimes it's issues that are not really amenable to coaching. For example, yeah, um, people may have burnout and it may be complicated with uh anxiety or depression because of work-related issues.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:49

And sometimes that needs a psychologist or a therapist or even a psychiatrist, you know. Um, so once I really understand what the issue is, it also helps me to see whether coaching is the best issue, or you should rather be looking for a therapist or a a psychologist or psychiatrist to help.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:11

I love this. That's quite reassuring. It's like you're not just taking on whoever comes, it's you've got to have this triage sort of process to use a medical term and give them what's right for them, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:38:22

Correct. And um, I stick to that because uh one, we we're health professionals, so we're bound by ethics and uh code uh ethical codes of uh and codes of conduct. So in a coach in coaching, coaching is an unregulated field. Yes. Yes. Anyone can wake up today and say, I'm going to coach. You know? I'm not saying that they are not good people or not good coaches, but I feel that um doing things in the way that I'm accustomed to. So meaning that I get certifications and uh to make sure that I um coach in an ethical way, um, that is aligned to the, you know, the uh, well, there are some coaching bodies, you know. So I try to stick to certifications that are aligned to those coaching bodies that uh have placed a great premium on on ethics. Okay, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:19

That's good to hear. You're not just making all this stuff up and there is a code that you follow. Correct. Yeah, and you're used to to being sort of following an ethical code based on your are you still registered with the HP CSA and Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:32

Okay. Absolutely, because I never know what the future holds. Yeah, you know me, Maris feed.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:38

I was gonna cheekily ask what's next, but I don't want to make it seem like the coaching thing is gonna end anytime soon. But you never know. You you never know. I'm also still registered, even though I don't practice, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:48

So, you know, uh it it and that's the beauty of uh our work, you know. Um you can keep up to date with clinical work, um uh, you know, through your CPD points, make sure that you're up to date with it. So I do that. Um, and I also, you know, I'm still I'm still a a doctor, I still have a medical degree. Of course. So I I still sort of maintain an interest in you know what's the latest, especially with myself having been trained as a uh well, having done my master's in clinical epidemiology, I love still reading up about you know articles. I'm a reviewer for some journals, you know. So that helps me, you know, you're a podcaster also. I'm a podcaster for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:37

What's the name of the podcast?

SPEAKER_04 1:40:38

So my podcast is Doctors of the Baobab, and I speak to amazing doctors from Africa and the diaspora. Yes. Um those are the most fascinating doctors, all of them with a s a different story, but something to teach us. Okay, you know, whether it is about um how to be confident um and how to lead uh or even how to retire productively, you know. Uh so coming from different parts of life and but different parts of the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:14

So maybe we and that's on um Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or where is it?

SPEAKER_04 1:41:18

Yeah, so all the major um, you know, uh uh platforms, uh Apple and uh somebody must be thinking, but where does this doctor get the time to do all?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:27

I mean, you make the time, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:41:29

Or you're busy, you're busy all the time. Well, you know, as I said to you, something that I have been working on is my restless feet. So um over time I've kind of had to learn skills, and these are things that I sometimes recognize also in in doctors, especially. We like to be busy, you know. And sometimes we're not efficient in how to be busy. Yeah, you know, we're just busy with uh activities that are just sapping our energy. So I make time now, you know, and I think this is something that as I've started coaching, you know, you have to walk, walk the talk. Okay, as I've started coaching, I've come to value the importance of rest.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:12

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:14

I again did another live recently on Instagram with another uh colleague also talking about the importance of rest, yeah, you know, and the productivity of rest, which sounds again like a contradiction because most people think if you are resting, you're not being productive.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:31

Yes, especially the doctors and stuff. It's like a almost like a swear word. Exactly. Yeah, resting. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:38

So, you know, that's how I sort of manage uh my time. So I bring all of those learnings in how to rest and um how not to be restless, you know, uh always looking for something to do. Okay, you know, how to be selective in what you do that will feed you mind, body, and and soul. And I've found that by applying those principles, I I'm actually doing so much more. Okay, okay, I'm so much more productive, you know. Um, instead of scattering my energy all over the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:13

Feeling tired but not being productive.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:15

Correct. And then one other thing that I think is also important, I've learned to delegate, I've learned to bring other people on board to help.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:23

The more you speak, the more I think I need to be coached for you. Because I was telling you before we were setting up, like how I I'm reluctant to delegate even, you know, the editing of this podcast and all that stuff, but yeah, I guess it's important, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:36

Yeah. And again, our training is focused on you, you, you see the patient from beginning to end.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:44

In control.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:45

You are in control, yes. So, and there's a I want to say a persona, you know, the the um the typical uh medical person tends to be a high achiever, yeah, you know. So there's this uh, you know, you want to see yourself in the success.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:05

Used to doing it from school days all the way up. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:08

You know, you you're the one that's sitting and writing the exams to get into uh medical, dental school, and and um owning the success exclusively. Um so that's where again why I named my company Ubuntu.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:26

Because if you if you know the philosophy of Ubuntu, it is I am because we are. It's collaborative in nature. Yes, it is collaborative in nature. It means that when we when I lead a team, I don't lead alone. I lead with people. So these are the principles that we have to also um adopt, you know, that we are a community.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:49

Yes, nobody's self-made, right? Nobody's self-made.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:52

Yeah, even the ones that think they're self-made, yeah, they don't realize yeah, because at a point, for example, having um a podcast producer, and I've shared with you, I work with some amazingly talented young people who do things the way that I would never have imagined. And so I often give them card bludge, you know, I say, I I want to do this video. Um can you advise me? They always return something I would never have done. So when you seed a little bit of control, yeah, you empower somebody else as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:31

Diversity of thought in the world.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:32

Of thought, correct. The innovation that comes from working collaboratively with people, that's what that's how you get ahead.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:42

Amazing. I always ask this question. I don't know if you're gonna put your coach's hat on or not. Okay, but if somebody comes to you and says, Doc, I'm thinking of doing medicine, studying medicine, how would you approach that question?

SPEAKER_04 1:45:57

Um for me, I would definitely want to explore the reasons why. You know, medicine is very dynamic. Uh I've been in the game now for a long time, and we talked before that we started recording about how things have changed in the health system. Um, it's not necessarily in its traditional sense the lucrative profession it once was, the way people the perception of medicine in terms of how I shared with you, people used to really, if you were a doctor, you know, you were really respect it. So there's a lot that has changed. And so you need to be willing to adopt, yeah, uh rather to adapt with all those changes. So if you come into medicine w for the wrong reasons, um, I think you will be frustrated and you will leave and you will become burnt out. But if you come with an open mind and understanding that how does it align, understanding how it aligns with your purpose as a human being. Because we know, and there are studies out there that show that doctors who are who look at medicine as a calling, yeah, they tend to be more resilient, you know, because they they have this purpose, yeah, you know, so they're will more willing to fight for for their patience, they're more willing to navigate challenges creatively. You know, so it's important to ask yourself why. And that starts with self-awareness. So with my coach's hat on, that's where I would start. Let's let's what are your values? Let's explore your values, let's explore your purpose first, and then see if medicine is the right one for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:50

For people not listening, people watching, or for the people listening, you wouldn't have seen. I've been smiling the whole time you've been giving me this. Because I think you shot that out the you shot the lights out there with that answer because I totally agree with it. So uh firstly, secondly, it's actually the reason I started this podcast because I personally feel like so many people get into this profession for the wrong reasons with the wrong pre-conceived ideas about what it is about. You know, you're gonna get the respect, you're gonna get the title, you're gonna get the money. And then when they get into it and start going through it, they realize, gosh, I had no idea. And then they want to get out, or they end up not treating patients the way patients deserve to be treated. And that creates a vicious cycle of it brings a profession into disrepute, patients don't trust you, they think doctors are just there to drive fancy cars and make money and be and it doesn't help the public. And I feel like if people just had the coaching at the right time and they say, okay, actually it's not for me. Maybe I must go into finance or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:01

And that's the reason um what I've started more formally again this year is uh for my pro bono work. I do pro bono coaching for medical students. Okay. Yeah. Um I have um from uh two, no, three are from South Africa and then one from Zambia and one from U Canada.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:23

Um to help them to say, look, have this self-awareness now.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:30

Because the damage that comes not only to you but to the profession when you are out of purpose, you know, can be very harmful. So I I help them, you know, we have a conversation about how to get the most out of it. Because this for me, I'll, you know, people ask me, would you do this again? Uh uh that's not even a question for me. I would do this a million times over. If I had to come back, you know, uh and and be asked, could you do you need would you what if you had a different choice, I would do it again. So I would love for people to to get that because it can be extremely, extremely rewarding professionally and financially too. Yeah. And financially too. Um, but you have to be, you have to be aware of what you want. You know, it you have to have alignment between yourself, your values, and the profession.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:31

You know, the funny thing is, so that aptitude test you did in high school and it said lawyer, doctor, or teacher. I think you've got two out of three.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:40

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:41

You've got two out of three, and and and as a lawyer, I can say this. Nobody wants to nobody wants to be a lawyer. I'm kidding. Lawyers change the world. But yeah, so that's amazing. And I think let's wrap it up on that note. It was fascinating talking to you. I know you're going to be inspiring to so many people. And uh hopefully people sign up and come to you and look for coaching. Um, and maybe we'll speak in a year or two and we'll see that the feet have moved on somewhere else. I don't want to say anything, but I wish you all the best and thank you so much for joining me.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:13

Thank you. Thank you. And I appreciate you having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:16

Um, and keep up the good work, keep up the good work. These are conversations that we need to have, especially for younger doctors. They need to know that listen, you can be a doctor and at law and do both, you know, and still be uh, you know, somebody that can make an impact to your colleagues.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:41

You know, uh, and that's the value of it, you know. So I think this is such an important platform for that reason. So keep pushing and uh keep thank you so much for these conversations.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:54

So much appreciated. Thanks, Doc.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:55

Thank you.