Why Did I Become A Doctor South Africa
Why Did I Become A Doctor - Real Stories from Professionals Who Chose Their Path
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Why Did I Become A Doctor South Africa
The Shortest Surgeon in South Africa (Maybe?) – Dr Thegesha Naidoo on Grief, Guts, and Gallbladders
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Dr Yash Naidoo sits down with someone very close to him, Dr Thegesha Naidoo—possibly South Africa’s shortest surgeon—to explore her remarkable journey from pharmacy school and studying medicine abroad to thriving in the operating room. They dive into high-pressure hospital dynamics, from coping with the first patient lost on the table to answering listener questions on doctor-nurse tensions and surgical mistakes. Dr Naidoo also opens up about why she chose surgery, how she found her footing in both public and private practice, and the emotional toll of life-and-death decisions. Whether you’re curious about the inner workings of a surgeon’s mind or simply love a story of resilience, this episode offers an honest, heartfelt look at modern medicine.
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Dr. Tagesha Naidu. Welcome to the show. Thanks for being my second general surgeon on the show. Hot off the heels of my good friend and your friend and colleague, Dr. Cafus. Let's jump in. What does a general surgeon actually do?
SPEAKER_00Sure. This is I think a lot of people actually ask that because they get v very confused with I think general surgeons. So essentially a general surgeon forms the basis of all surgical procedures, I think.
SPEAKER_02It's a specialist.
SPEAKER_00It's a specialist. So you have to specialize for a certain amount of years. You have to write obviously exams.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then you become a general surgeon. So a general surgeon is essentially a specialist just like a plastic surgeon is, just like a urologist, a neurosurgeon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So a general surgeon is So what do you do?
SPEAKER_02What do we call general?
SPEAKER_00So you don't focus on a specific aspect. You work on essentially every um target organ of the body.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00But then once you become Yeah, well, you can do a lot of head to toe. Certain areas obviously are specialized for the neurosurgeon, certain things you won't do. But once you become a general surgeon, you can then subspecialize. So you can look at only the vascular system if you become a vascular surgeon. So you do general surgery first and then you subspec.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So what do you do? What do you do?
SPEAKER_00So as a general surgeon, a little bit of everything. You're a jack of all trades.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, not necessarily a master of none.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But um, yeah, so for everyone watching, an appendisectomy, laparoscopic cholesteromy.
SPEAKER_02What are these things? I mean, remember you're speaking to a lay person, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So okay, so removal, uh removal of the gallbladder. So if you have gallstones and um you have a lot of pain, can remove the gallbladder. Someone comes in with an infected appendix, take them for an appendisectomy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, trauma. So obviously you do have a trauma surgeon, but in South Africa, I mean, doctor-to-patient ratio is is is difficult to deal with. So the general surgeon also does trauma. So if you look at the systems of the body, a general surgeon would also do stepwise down the breast. So patients with cancer, patients with breast disease, go down to the abdomen. You would do, as I said, appendisectomies, take out the appendix, take out the gallbladder, look at the intestine, so bowel. So anything to do with that, remember you also have to do what type of trauma? So trauma, trauma is a big thing in South Africa. So we see a lot of gunshots, a lot of stab abdomens, um, a lot of crush injuries. So you get poly trauma. Patients involved in motor vehicle accidents come in polytrauma. So they might have a head injury with concomitant abdominal injuries, so maybe the intestines are injured, maybe they have a vessel injury. So a lot of that. And that's all during your formative years as a as a registrar.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I was gonna keep these questions till the end, but I said let's let me let me switch it up a bit. I asked the viewers and the listeners if they would have a question, if they could ask a question of any surgeon, of a surgeon, what would they ask? Just one question. So I'm gonna go through some of the responses I got.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02But the first one we have to start off with is my previous guest question. I had Sister Letmo Chiguru on as a previous guest on the show. You you watched that episode, I know. Yeah, she was a nurse, and towards the end of that episode, she asked me, Why are doctors nasty to nurses? And I said, Well, you can't ask me that question because I'm not a doctor. I only know how to operate. Um so I said, I'll ask the next doctor that's on the show, why are doctors nasty to nurses? And I'm framing it like that because that's the way she said it. You are welcome to disagree if you don't think doctors are nasty to nurses, or you can maybe give us some insight into why nurses might think doctors are being nasty or whatever. But let me know. Let in.
SPEAKER_00This is a sensitive topic, but yeah. Um look, I can't generalize. But so I mean, we work with patients, right? And what we do on ward rounds or whatever scenario it is, right? Um obviously there are some of my colleagues who are a bit, I would say, a bit rude.
SPEAKER_02Um it's not you, it's your colleagues. Yeah, sorry. Sorry. All right, not you either.
SPEAKER_00So, like, look, some colleagues do take it a bit too far and they generally are a bit rude and condescending.
SPEAKER_02And you've never been rude to a colleague or a patient? I mean, not that I know of. Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_00Um, well, when it's warranted, when it's warranted. But what I'm trying to say is on the other end of the spectrum as well, you get a lot of sisters. Um nurses or sisters, um, who are also a bit condescending, and especially if you're a junior doctor. Okay. Um, so you give an order and you expect it to be carried out. Because that is unfortunately the chain of command. This hierarchy in in the healthcare system. Okay. So sometimes you get a junior doctor who's probably like 27.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you get a junior in what age or an intern, a registrar. Okay. Remember, age doesn't really matter because you can be an intern and you could be 50 years old.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So that's why I asked specifically that.
SPEAKER_00So hierarchy-wise, right? You get an intern doing a ward round, they give an order, the system out, or the nurse doesn't carry it out. Right? Um, there are two ways of dealing with that. You can be rude and shout and um, you know, go off about it. Or you can try and educate the the nurse in question. And I I feel like um with the senior doctors, sometimes you expect things to be done because it's in the best interest of a patient. So if I ask, um what I find is that if I educate the person that I'm doing around with, the nurse, and I say, This is why I want certain things to be done. Like if we have a patient with a hemothorax or blood in, you know, blood. Um a hemothorax. And I say, I want the intercostal drain, which is drained into the chest, I want the output to be measured at a certain time every day. And I will explain and say this is why it needs to be done and what the importance is. Because I feel like then the sister or the male nurse or female nurse, whoever it is, understands why they're doing it.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And if it's not done, then I can take it a step up. But I think if when things are not done, it impacts on the patient's care.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that's when people get frustrated. And they either deal with it one way or the other. You can be rude about it or not. And I feel like if you a person who generally is quite easygoing and you explain and you level-headed, when you do get angry, and when I mean angry as in you raise your voice slightly, it has a greater impact because the person who's on the other end of it feels like, oh no, I've like I've made a mistake, you know. But if you're someone who shouts all the time and, you know, so essentially there is no reason why nurses find doctors rude or doctors are rude to nurses. I think you can't generalize.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you have to be in the situation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00In a high pressure situation, a patient's crashing, and you ask for something that if you're not given whatever you ask for within five seconds, the patient might die. Yeah. Then you're gonna get shouted at.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Um it's teamwork, and what I'm getting is you you prefer to communicate and um empower as opposed to just barking orders. Yeah. Did you find that more effective?
SPEAKER_00I do, but I also think that the system is such that sometimes junior people, junior staff, both nurses and doctors, are placed in high pressure situations where they might be a bit slower than they should. Okay. And this leads to tension and and arguments and fighting. So if you put a s a very junior sister uh in a recess sort of scenario, and they don't know, you ask for an airway or a pharyngeal airway, you know, um, to keep their mouth open and they don't know what they what you're talking about. Yeah, that person who's leading the recess is gonna get angry. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And doesn't uh well that does that even help though? I mean, you can't really blame the junior.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't, but I mean, as I said, we're all humans.
SPEAKER_02It's high pressure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, put yourself in the scenario you need something or someone's gonna die, and someone doesn't know what to do or where to get it.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so to answer Letty's question, Letty, if you're listening, I'm what I'm taking from this is it's like it's a high stress environment, and the the doctors are in the best interest of the patient, sometimes maybe acting out of um desperation and lashing out due to pressure. I don't know. Well maybe I'll ask more doctors as I get them on that question just to see the various perspectives. Um okay, so I've got a Twitter follower named uh it's Thagan or Thagan or Thagan. I'm sorry, I tried three times. If I still slaughtered your name, apologies. Uh but his name does start with the first four letters that your name started with. So that's coincidence.
SPEAKER_00It wasn't me.
SPEAKER_02And he asks, Do surgeons ever make mistakes while doing surgery?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, at least you're from MPS, so look, to be honest, I I don't I don't know how to answer this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well you said that you said that that doctors are human, so look what do you define as a mistake?
SPEAKER_00Because anatomy is is different. Like you get you learn anatomy, but doesn't mean that everyone has the same anatomy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So a mistake as in like grass negligence, um, patient, you leave a swab in a patient, yeah. Or does a doctor ever do something where it it's the the wrong call?
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So what I think is if you're looking at the trauma setting, yeah, um it's it's high pressure, yeah, right. And sometimes you do what you think is best for the patient. And if you're doing uh damage control, which essentially means you have to stabilize the patient, someone comes in in a trauma setting, they're bleeding, you need to stop the bleeding. That's the first thing. You stop the bleeding, you get the patient off the table. Now that isn't an easy concept for people to understand because it sometimes means leaving the patient's abdomen open. Yeah. Right? And for the uh for the lay person, they'll think like, Why are you leaving the abdomen open? You haven't done anything, you know? But when you look at the theory behind it, you basically stopping the bleeding to get the patient a little more stable, resuscitate them, get them back. So to answer you, sometimes not all decisions um work out. And you know, you do get patients who you who die. Um but I think that no surgeon ever goes in with the without thinking about what they're doing and without doing what's best for the patient. Um the outcome might not be great all the time, but and now I'm talking about obviously emergency situations.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, obviously, elective settings are a bit different because if something goes wrong during an elective procedure, um the the backlash is a bit more.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So there you go, Twitter follower. Um, what I'm getting from that is that surgeons never make mistakes and uh medical malpractice attorneys, you're gonna be out of uh work very soon. Okay, that's that's Dr. Naidu's answer to that question. A good segue to the next one, because you mentioned patients dying. Uh my colleague Rotondwa, who's a colleague and friend of mine and a lawyer, uh, she asks, How did they navigate, or how did you navigate the first patient that you lost on the table?
SPEAKER_00Hmm. Okay, that's a good question.
SPEAKER_02Can you remember the first patient that you lost?
SPEAKER_00I actually and I'm speaking for myself, but um I'm obviously not uh the most experienced surgeon.
SPEAKER_02I've only been um How long have you been a special surgeon?
SPEAKER_00Well, I qualified, I finished my exam in 2021. So I've been um board certified surgeon for three years.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So obviously reg time before that and what's the first time. Well in training. So you've trained. So I've trained before that. But as a registered surgeon, three years. So I think maybe I speak for myself, obviously, but for some reason I remember my patients, especially the ones that die on the table. Um, because it you never get used to it. It's always shocking. Um it's a bit more of um something that you can handle if it's a trauma setting and the patient comes in already.
SPEAKER_02A hopeless situation, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like not doing well. But for the for the patients who you you think are gonna do well and you're gonna get them off the table and everything is gonna be fine, and something goes wrong, doesn't necessarily mean it's the surgical aspect of it. Remember, anesthesia also plays a part. Um the patient's general health also plays a part. Uh you can still have a heart attack on the table, you can still have an embolism, like a clot, you know. Um, those things are a bit shocking.
SPEAKER_02And so how do you navigate it? How do you handle it? What do you do? Who do you speak to?
SPEAKER_00No one. So I think the f and this is this is what's wrong. Um I'm lucky in the sense that uh my partner is uh is a doctor. So I have someone to talk to. But um there really is no there's no um facilities or for I don't think doctors are really Well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm asking you specifically. What do you do? This is what Rotonda was asking. What do you navigate? What do you do? How did you navigate the first patient? What happened? Did you go and speak to a colleague?
SPEAKER_00I spoke to I spoke to essentially my colleague. Remember during training, you have a lot of registrars that train with you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we talked to each other, um, and then we help each other through it. And um, you know, something interesting that I noticed is that for some reason I have a lot of um my patients, uh, the relatives, which is wrong. I don't think I should be doing it, but um, I have a lot of them saved on my phone as contacts. And you know, it's it's silly, but um, you sort of um go through a grieving process with them is how I dealt with it. Um I had a patient that demised on the table, and her mom was obviously contacting me during the her hospital stay. Um and when she died, I um I still had her mom on WhatsApp.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So obviously the statuses, you can see the statuses, yeah, and you see the family grieving, and it's the same process for you as well. You sort of grieve with them and you see how they go from sadness, denial, accepting, and you know, and you sort of go through the same process. But to in other words, we speak to each other in training. So doctors speak to each other. Um, it's not the most ideal situation. Um, but as I said, I was lucky that my partner is a doctor.
SPEAKER_02So do they not train you guys on this?
SPEAKER_00Like, do you not get is there not course on you know handling the No, I mean there are courses, uh not courses really, but you discuss it.
SPEAKER_02Um post-grade, but nothing formal, is what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_00Not really.
SPEAKER_02That's yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, it's it's actually because nobody thinks of it from that perspective. I don't like to make it seem like, oh, poor doctor, you've lost a patient, because at the end of the day, it's the patient that that's died and the family's grieving and all that stuff, but nobody really considers the other end, right? Like I'm assuming no doctor goes out there to kill a patient, and obviously when the patient dies on your table, especially unexpectedly, it's a lot to process.
SPEAKER_00Um Yeah, it is. And I think um for anyone who's ever been in um the pit or the or a trauma setting at night, um you are so busy and you're so inundated with patients that you don't have time to to grieve. Um you you don't have time to chat about it. Um if somebody says the sister says um there's a patient, a gunshot on the way from wherever, um you just carry on and then they tell you, oh, the patient died on route.
SPEAKER_03It's bizarre, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you're like, oh, okay, the patient died on route. And no counselling? And in your head, it's like one less patient to see.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You understand what I'm saying, which is they don't know.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00Well, I will I've never in your experience, but have you heard of you?
SPEAKER_02Have you have you ever heard of some places where they offer this kind of service or I think it's more about um therapy?
SPEAKER_00The head of your department, maybe like uh have you heard of places that have these kind of things? Not in South Africa. So I've I've been I've been exposed to um other countries and I've gone across to the US, they have amazing facilities where you have groups and you can, you know, sort of debrief. You know, so that's a big word, debriefing. Okay. We don't have debriefing um scenarios here.
SPEAKER_02What are those MM meetings that I always hear about?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so MMs MM just explain for listeners.
SPEAKER_02MM is what? Morbidity and mortality meetings. What is that?
SPEAKER_00Uh it's when the department comes together.
SPEAKER_02The surgery department.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So you can have interdepartmental MMs as well, where you get other departments involved, but generally it's it's once. Well, we used to have it once a week. And you come together as a as a department and you discuss the cases that were done for the week. So emergency cases, elective cases, um, mortalities and morbidities. So mortalities obviously are deaths. Morbidities are patients who've suffered um some sort of injury but haven't died, and adverse outcome, but they're still alive, right? So by no mistake of the surgeon. Yeah, yeah, of course. So those morbidities and mortalities are meant to be a teaching exercise. Okay. So you discuss what was done with the heads of the units, the registrars, and then the MOs and the interns, and to to try and figure out where you might have done better, where the treatment could have been um better or worse, or and then look, at some in some places it becomes a bit of a stressful environment because the registrar presents, and then you also get questioned.
SPEAKER_02That's the surgeon in training. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you you also get questioned and you have to back up why you did something. Okay. Um and sometimes it can be a bit scary because you have the uh some of the senior consultants who are quite intimidating, and um, you know, people have differing opinions. It doesn't mean that every patient is treated the same way. So, but those are our teaching exercises, but they're not meant to debrief. You don't you discuss the mortality, you discuss why it happened, where you could have done something differently, but you don't debrief.
SPEAKER_02It's more like a crash scene investigation as opposed to a therapeutic or like uh exercise for the surgeon.
SPEAKER_00So it's not therapeutic at all. It's quite stressful.
SPEAKER_02It's opposite. Shh.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's well, maybe there's a gap in the market, I don't know, or some sort of because we always talk about burnout and clinician stress and working under pressure. And to me, as a lay person, I would think that that kind of thing is would be a basic um option that should be readily available. But but I guess we could speak forever on that. I mean let's leave it at that for now, right? The next question from the viewer uh or one of our listeners, actually, this comes from Let me more again, Letty. How do you prepare yourself mentally before a surgery?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's also a good one. So, you know, when when I was uh in training, I always thought that once you become a consultant, so consultant and attending, once you are a surgeon, um board certified, that suddenly everything, all your anxieties disappear.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00But I don't know about I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself, anxiety never goes away.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00Because a surgery entails cutting into someone, it's someone's body, it's someone's parent, it's someone's brother. So I wouldn't say anxiety ever goes away, but I think your level of preparedness and your um your ability to deal with the unknown is better. So as I said, anatomy is never different, right? Um I mean anatomy is never the same, it's always different in each patient. But when you are at a level where you are now an attending, a consultant, you can deal with things that you didn't expect better. Um so, in order to answer your question, I think I'm I'm always anxious, but I prepare by thinking about the procedure. So if you look at the elective procedures, uh huh. The night before, I always play the procedure in my head and think of every scenario that that could pop up.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um could there Be aberrant anatomy, meaning the anatomy is different, you know. Um, what's my situation gonna be like if I find myself in that position? Do I have the instruments, do I have the material, do I have the stuff um available and a plan?
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um for the emergency procedures, look, you it's an emergency. So you go in, you you hope uh that, you know, the for the best, and um that's about it. But something as simple as an appendix.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and everyone always makes fun of an appendix, but it can What do you mean everybody makes fun of an appendix? Ah, like when you're a junior registrar or you know, the you learn by doing cases like an appendisectomy, and and you know, everyone thinks ah the appendix will pop pop up and you just see it there. Okay. But many a medical officer has called a consultant out at night because they can't find the appendix. Um so something as as supposedly insignificant as an appendicitis can kill a patient.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02So you visualize, you plan, you think ahead. Don't you can't you guys like get like some PlayStation game or something where you just You can.
SPEAKER_00So that's that's for exp yeah, you you get a lot of simulators now, especially for minimally invasive uh surgery.
SPEAKER_02Where do you get them?
SPEAKER_00So you you can order them online. Um you also get reps who even make the boxes for you. What so What do you mean?
SPEAKER_02What does it look like? Is it like a physical thing?
SPEAKER_00So yeah, it's like it's a box. You it's in the shape of an abdomen, yeah, and you get instruments and you attach it to a screen, you can attach it to your TV, you can attach it to an iPad, the computer. Sure. Um and then you practice. And then you also get PlayStation games as well that uh help you simulate. That's amazing. How much do these things go for? Ah, Timu is a thing now, so you can get it for look, it used to be very, very expensive, but now you can get it for like less than a thousand Rand. What? That's ridiculous. So I so something cool, I see a lot of surgeons, um, especially from abroad, who have been teaching their children. So you get like nine-year-olds, ten-year-olds who are so dexterous um and can basically do laparoscopy better than some seniors. Wow. Because they they just practice on these.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So you maybe you must buy more of those things then. So you don't have to just think about it in the head. Okay. Next question comes from Gives12 on YouTube. How do you manage to recover from big losses slash failures? I think you've already answered. I don't know. Well, you give you answer, no?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh, it depends on what you consider a failure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um there's academia, there's academia, there's the actual surgical aspect of it. And it's a good question because it's depressing. So if if something, if you do a colostomy, which is basically bringing the intestine out onto the skin, right?
SPEAKER_02Uh okay, why would you do that?
SPEAKER_00Um well, say a patient has an obstruction, or in the trauma setting, the patient has a gunshot and damaged the intestines. So say you've you've done a colostomy and it retracts, which means it pulls back into the abdomen, or it becomes necrotic, which means it dies. Uh, that's a failure, right? And then it's depressing because you did something and it didn't work out. Uh and then you'll be depressed. Well, so how I think about it is it it depresses me for a long time. It always comes back to haunt me.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um and then you'll think about it. Yeah, and then it like then it ruins your couple of hours.
SPEAKER_02And I think you guys need therapy or something, man. Jeez, this is not nice. Doesn't I don't I don't want to be a surgeon after uh hearing all this.
SPEAKER_00No, but it's part of the job.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I guess, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's one of those things and it makes you learn from your mistakes because you won't you'll go back and you'll think, why did that stoma retract?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, you go through it and you know, uh, and you also you get a thick skin because you might get some comments from a senior to say, Oh, yeah, your stoma retracted.
SPEAKER_02Okay, that's a nice senior. Those are nice people. You gotta, I mean, it's important to remember that even the smallest of comments can have a big impact on somebody, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's the truth, and you're not gonna sugarcoat it.
SPEAKER_02So, what do you do? You just think about it, you deal with it, and you move on. Sounds crazy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you try and figure out why you did what you did and what went wrong.
SPEAKER_02Wow, okay. Well, on this theme or this feeling that I'm getting of like I really would not want to be a surgeon hearing all this stuff. Uh here's a good question from a Twitter follower. It's from my good friend, uh Dr. Roketwa uh Rocky Sidiza, who was studying medicine at Tucs when I was in undergrad. And he coined the phrase studying is for cowards, because we when me and my friends would say we're not coming out with you, Rocky, we're studying, you'd say, Ah, studying is for cowards, just go and write, you'll figure it out. Um, so I gotta have him on the show. But here's a question. Money aside, do you enjoy your discipline? This is because I am yet to meet a cheerful surgeon. Yes, so yeah. Nice question, Rocky.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well, look, I do. I I love my discipline. I would just trade it for anything, but I must say that I I made the decision in my head to do surgery very long ago.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00I was an intern, it was my second rotation, and I just loved surgery.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I think it's because you work as a team.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um like, okay, I did my internship in RKChan and uh ArKCan. Line Durban. So I had amazing registrars. We we had a very awesome team. And you know exactly how it is in Scrubs is how I felt. Scrubs, that's the comedy. So exactly how it is in Scrubs, when you see the surgeons walk into the ward.
SPEAKER_01Cool people.
SPEAKER_00It's just, you know, you you are there as a team, you sort the patient out, you have a plan. Uh it sounds silly, but uh so my my my register at the time is is a was a friend of yours, Sandir.
SPEAKER_02Oh, Sandir Bay, yeah, yeah. Sandir Dr. Miraja.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was awesome. We had like the way we worked, it you work hard and the rewards are amazing. Okay, so like what a patient has. I always use the same thing, like examples, but say a patient has an abscess, something supposedly insignificant.
SPEAKER_02I know they call it an absorption. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So an absorption.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you know uh and that's a Durban joke, by the way. So, you know, the auntie comes, she has an absorption and it's really painful. Yeah, and she can't lower her arm because it's so painful.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You take, I mean, you can't lift it. You take it to theater, you drain that abscess, and fountain of pus comes out. And the next day the patients, well, go home. So for me, the the allure of surgery was first of all the camaraderie in the team because you all struggle together.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00So the the intern is struggling because you've been there for over 24 hours. Okay. The registrar's struggling because they've been there for 36 hours. Yes. And they have to deal with the consultant coming on. You wait for the consultant to come. The round only starts at two in the afternoon. You have to do the post-ward round, you know, work, and then you all leave together, you're all tired together, you stress together. It was just it was really cool. And um, so what I'm saying is I made my decision to do surgery very early on. And everything after that I did in order to get to that point.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So my choices that I made um in terms of where I went for calm serve, where I did MO time, um, and then where I chose to do reg time. Okay. Uh, it was a very planned out and so teamwork, so Rocky.
unknownDr.
SPEAKER_02Nido likes what she does, she loves it because of teamwork and helping patients like properly. It's not like all these things we prescribe something and then the patient says, Oh, it would have gone away anyway.
SPEAKER_00No, I'm not saying it's I'm not saying it's easy. Yeah, um It doesn't sound easy, trust me. So for anyone who's contemplating going into surgery, there are going to be many times along the road where you're going to say, This is I I feel like quitting.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um as you said, when a patient dies, um or when it's just too stressful. Yeah. Um, because remember, you're doing it's it you're not just confined to the ward.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You're confined to not one aspect. You you do ward ward rounds, you have ward patients, you have theater. Theater is a big part, and theater itself has its own stresses because you have to learn to deal with other people. Okay. Um, theater is a completely different environment.
SPEAKER_02So so surgery is surgery sounds a lot like I used to be a lawyer and I used to be in the litigation department. It sounds a lot like litigation because there there's also teamwork, high pressure, high stress, good rewards. But with litigation, my my boss said, Don't come work for me if you want to make money. Now Rocky said money aside. So I'm assuming he he's he's he's implying that there's good money. Is it good money? There's easier ways to make money.
SPEAKER_00There are definitely easier ways to make money.
SPEAKER_02It's okay to say if you're doing well.
SPEAKER_00I mean, uh look, everyone knows the situation, South African situation where you have public and private.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00Well, you have public and private. So I I would say in public, the rewards are obviously there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but uh financially it can be a bit constraining. Yeah um and but if you're an academic, it's a lot more rewarding to be part of the public system because you can still, especially if you're in an academic setting, um, with a university adjoined to it. Uh so you can still be part of academia, right? Private is lucrative, yes, but general surgery isn't um the easiest way to make a lot of money. Okay. You can, but you need to work hard. Um there are a lot easier, I would say easier, but no discipline is easy because you have to get there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but there are a lot less time-consuming specialities where you can make money, a lot more money, uh, a lot easier and with less hours involved.
SPEAKER_02Okay, cool. Last question from uh viewerslash listener. This one's from Morgany in Cape Town, our connection. You we touched on it a bit earlier, and you she asks how do how do you put your heart aside and continue with what is expected? I think this is in the context of like difficult patient interactions, difficult cases, you know, where you are seeing this patient in a bad situation.
SPEAKER_00How do you separate? I think sometimes it's good to not separate it in certain scenarios. You have to be human because you have to to to cheat to treat a patient, you have to have empathy. And I think having empathy makes you make good decisions in certain scenarios. Because if you go by the book, yeah, um patients don't come according to a guideline. Yeah. You know, every patient is different. So I think that it's something you learn with time. Okay. As an intern, uh you see a lot of interns cry when someone dies and they, you know, they leave the room or they they have little mini breakdowns. Not really, not me.
SPEAKER_03Sure.
SPEAKER_00Um, I'm not saying that's a good thing. Yeah, I didn't see that. I'm just but I think it also Just judging you, that's all. Uh I think that also has to do with where you go in terms of what discipline you do.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I I am generalizing here, but I felt like from what I've seen over the years, a lot of softer interns, you know, um, went into certain specialities. Okay. And certain interns went the other way. But you do get better with the time. You do get better with time. So you get better at dealing with death and with strife and difficulties and uh and difficult patients.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, we all know surgeons are well known for their softness and their empathy and their caring nature. I say very sarcastically, because I know a lot of doctors that otherwise.
SPEAKER_00This is interesting because it also lends to the topic of females in surgery.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because I think a lot of people believe that to be a surgeon you need to be that um loud, barking type of person who shouts at everyone.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And when I was an intern, there were a lot of females who came into surgery. There weren't a lot of females in surgery, but the females who were in surgery, which weren't many, yeah, felt like they had to be that sort of personality, even if it was against their nature.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, obviously you do get females who are aggressive and and loud, and that's their personality, but those who weren't felt like they had to be.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And if they weren't, they were lost in the crowd.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, but things are changing. So the typical I know lots of women surgeons, eh?
SPEAKER_02Like now.
SPEAKER_00Isn't that more the numbers have increased drastically? Yeah. And a lot of people will say it's because people in higher positions were forced to take females on because of the pushback, and yeah. So you see, the US is very far ahead of us still. But the number of females in surgery now is still a lot more than say 10 years ago.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I know quite a few women in surgery, yeah. Uh, how did we get to that point? Okay, we were talking about how do you put your heart aside. Okay, so you say you think empathy sometimes you've got to keep your heart in it sometimes.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00But sometimes you've got to keep your heart out of it. Sometimes being empathetic and being the patient's friend is not good for the patient because they they tend to think of you as a friend and not as their treating doctor.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, so sometimes you need to put your foot down and say, I'm the doctor, this is what I think is good for you.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And you know, obviously they they make the decision at the end of the day of the day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but you can't you have to be able to make a decision and stick by it. You can't be, you know, you can't waffle and because that's not making a decision. So Mogni, I think it comes with time and experience.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so what do you call a doctor who couldn't get into med school? Uh me. Huh?
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, yeah, I was gonna actually the joke is uh and a lot of medical doctors use this joke with me. It's what do you call a doctor who couldn't get into med school? You call him a dentist, right? So I thought you were gonna say dentist, and then I was gonna say to you, that's rich of you to say because you couldn't get into med school. Well, I spoiled your joke. Right. So you spoiled it, but uh the point I wanted to make is you couldn't get into med school. So take us all the way back before you even go to med school. Where are you born? Where are you from? What do you do, all that stuff? Oh, I mean, you know how was your upbringing, all those things? So I was born on Earth, but Oh well done. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I was born in Durban. So I'm a Durbanite.
SPEAKER_02Durban, right? Where are bought in Durban?
SPEAKER_00In Tongat. Okay. I wasn't yeah, I was born in St. Augustine's, I think.
SPEAKER_02Oh, is it? Okay, so that's proper Durban.
SPEAKER_00That's oh no, I was born in St. Aidens. All right. Always mix the two up, but St. Aidens. Um so I was born in Durban. Um, I was raised in Durban.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I went to school in Durban.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And then Were you good at school? What was it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so look, okay, so you want detail. Okay. So yeah, so look, I was a good student. I was always an A student. Okay. Um and I al I always look from an early age I knew I wanted to do medicine.
SPEAKER_03Why?
SPEAKER_00Uh just I don't know, actually. It's it's odd. Um our family has a lot of doctors. So a lot of our older cousins were doing medicine. And a lot of people tell me that I copied my cousin. You know, oh, you want to be like your cousin? And incidentally, she's also a surgeon.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00But she's nine years older than me. So um, but for some reason, I I don't know if I watched a program on TV. No. I was very small, so from like forever, I always knew that I wanted to be a doctor. And I had to try and so like um.
SPEAKER_02I thought you were alluding to your height because you know what? I think you might actually be the shortest surgeon in South Africa. I doubt it. Well oh, do you know somebody shorter than you that's a surgeon?
SPEAKER_00Uh no, not really.
SPEAKER_02But about for the viewers, okay, you can't even see it if even though if you're watching this. Um Dr. Naidoo is very short. Um also, we haven't mentioned that she's my sister, like my biological sister. So if you think that I'm being very crass and judgmental in this interview, you're right, because that's just how we operate. Um so please don't think I'm I'm gonna be like this if you're a potential guest. I really will not make these sorts of comments, but I think you might be the shortest surgeon in South Africa. But anyway, let's let's go back.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so what were we talking about?
SPEAKER_02Talking about how you decided to do medicine. Oh, yeah, so you don't know why.
SPEAKER_00I don't know why. And you can ask the dad or mom, but like I always said I wanted to be a doctor, and I tried to convince myself otherwise. So in grade grade 10, then I said, no, I want to be uh game ranger. Okay. And then I thought, yeah, game ranger and whatnot. But um, but I always knew I wanted to do medicine. And um I did, I mean, I think I was, as I said, I was a I was an A student. Yeah, I was also very good in sports. Um, I was a really good swimmer. Uh I played first team tennis, first team netball all the way through high school, matric. Um, but I also I I wouldn't say I didn't, I wasn't a science person.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, I didn't like maths, I didn't like physics. And at the time, a lot of people laughed at me because I I did French and I did art and drama, and I did art and drama two separate subjects. So as my sixth and seventh subjects in Matrix.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um and in retrospect, a lot of people, you know, like, why did you do that? Like, why did you why are you choosing those subjects? And coming full circle, I I feel like it has really added to my experience and to my profession, because as a surgeon, I feel like surgery is an art.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, and and art and drama really taught me to be analytical. Okay. Um, you analyze works of art, the art history that you study, you put up uh an exhibition, teaches you time management, and the speech and drama aspect of it has helped me communicate better with colleagues, patients, and also I think it expands your mind. And um so I did all of that.
SPEAKER_02You still don't know why you did medicine, okay.
SPEAKER_00No, it's yeah, so I didn't get into medicine. Yeah, and uh it made me free for a lot of time.
SPEAKER_02Why didn't you get if you were didn't you do well, didn't you get lots of A's in Matrix or something? Not really.
SPEAKER_00Look, I did, but I it wasn't enough. You have to be what nine, you have to get 98%, or I don't know what it is now. I've been out of school for a long time. Um but also I was literally that guy that um became a dentist because I couldn't get into med school.
SPEAKER_02So I know this and I I had straight A's in Matrix, but so you couldn't get you didn't get enough, you didn't make the cut.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But you still I still wanted to do it. So what did you do?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so well, as I was saying, I was angry for a long time about that because I felt like I did everything that warranted getting into medicine.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And uh for various reasons, you know, as you grow up, you mature and you realize there's a reason why everything happens. So um I did pharmacy.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you did pharmacy.
SPEAKER_00For two years at WITS.
SPEAKER_02What was the goal there?
SPEAKER_00I just chose it. I didn't I wasn't interested in really.
SPEAKER_02So you weren't planning to do it as a stepping stone to medicine or something?
SPEAKER_00Uh it was an option. It wasn't an easy way to get in because you have to. Um I there are GAMP programs, so graduate entry medical programs where you can sort of segue into medicine. I know Witz offers it. Yeah. Um, but I just chose something that I thought would be something that I might like.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you were thinking you might be a pharmacist.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Sure.
SPEAKER_02Um so you gave up on the dream of medicine?
SPEAKER_00Not really. As I said, I still tried. Um I applied to uh universities again after first year of pharmacy.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And I got a f an interview, and the interview went very badly.
SPEAKER_03Where?
SPEAKER_00Uh it was at Walter Sasulu.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so the Eastern Cape.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the panelists were very um, I wouldn't say they were rude. Okay. Um, so you know, they asked me, you know, why didn't you apply the year before? Because you did well. And then I said I did. So it was a bit of a uh, you know, weird interview.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00But I didn't get a place. Yeah. Um so then the option arose where we knew someone who had gone abroad.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, someone who was actually at school with me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, a year older than me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And he was in Mauritius.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So But hold on, hold on, you're skipping something. I know this because I'm your brother, but didn't what about happened with pharmacy?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I didn't study. What what so I didn't really take it seriously.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I wasn't So you went to I wasn't really happy. I wasn't really interested. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02With university, and then you were were having too much fun and then you failed.
SPEAKER_00Second year. Yeah. Yeah, second year.
SPEAKER_02And you got excluded.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I did. So I mean, look, I wasn't happy with the way I was in terms of what I was doing. I didn't find it interesting. Um the same thing with first year. Um I just went to class, had fun.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um, you know, first year was funny because I didn't sup anything, I just passed everything.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And second year came around, I thought, ah, it's gonna be the same thing. Uh just chill, do whatever. And really wasn't interested in pharmacy.
SPEAKER_02Hits you hard, yeah. Okay, good. I think it's important to mention these things because failures are also important in life and good to mention I feel. So that's why I didn't want to skim over it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. So look, I also thought about it and it wasn't it was a very important aspect of my growth.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, because as you, I mean, you mentioned did I give up on what I was doing or my dream of being a doctor or whatever.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, I think what's important to mention is I I still went to the dean's office quite often because I would see a lot of people in the pharmacy class getting um places, you know, because there's a waiting list.
SPEAKER_02So when people drop out, yeah, places for what for medicine.
SPEAKER_00Okay, you get the call and oh, someone dropped out, so you can come um do medicine. So I went to the dean's office and I had a chat with the secretary and she she said something to me, which I will never forget. And she's like, you don't always get what you want in life.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And there was uh I was like, okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and it just stuck with me. So yeah, so second year it was fun, but uh true.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it ended up it it ended up in working out. So you got excluded from bits, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But then you hear about this opportunity to study abroad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Abroad being Mauritius. Right.
SPEAKER_00So I, as I said, we knew someone who studied there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And they they were very happy. And they st so we looked at the syllabus, we looked at the curriculum and um went for the interview and got the call that I got a place.
SPEAKER_02Where did you interview in Mauritius?
SPEAKER_00Um, so it was in Durban.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, the interview got a call like a few days later, and then left.
SPEAKER_02Left when?
SPEAKER_00Within like a week. No, I think it was like two, two weeks. Wow, that is. We went in January. Um, but maybe I'm remembering it wrong. That's fine. Because it felt like to me very soon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but not let not more than a month.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so um. So you you go to the to Mauritius, and my first guest was Yak Lindy. He studied at the same university, so he's given us a flavor of that. It's a very strict India-run facility, run by India Indians, and very strict, and there's no opportunity to do what you did in Witz there. Uh, you've got to go wear a uniform, I remember.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you wear a uniform, there's there's uh a roll call, um cities from Monday to Saturday.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, okay. It's a different syllabus.
SPEAKER_02So military.
SPEAKER_00It's very, very militant.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, militaristic.
SPEAKER_00But uh but it was it it look, it was a good experience. Um and then I made a lot of friends.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, who are now in different parts of the world. So it was quite uh it was quite awesome, um, but it was difficult. Okay. And the syllabus was quite demanding.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So um you either sank or swam.
SPEAKER_02I'll never forget they used to make you draw anatomy, like for anatomy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you had to draw, so you would do each a system every two weeks or three weeks, and then you would have to draw the anatomy. You had a logbook, um, draw a label, and then you'd get tested on that. And I mean, that's added to I don't think they do that in South Africa, eh?
SPEAKER_02Any of the South African universities.
SPEAKER_00Um I don't think so. Being in academia, like uh as a registrar, I didn't don't remember the interns ever having to, I mean the students ever having to do that. Um, but it was quite intense, and that's that's part of your dissection hall. So when you're doing anatomy and dissection hall.
SPEAKER_02So how many years is this degree now?
SPEAKER_00It's five years. Five years, and you Yeah, so it it's five years you you don't do. So in South Africa, you do a first year of physics, um, biology.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that is the equivalent of so in Mauritius, they the Mauritians themselves are uh they do the UK syllabus uh for metric. They do A levels. Right. So they don't the syllabus there doesn't in entail physics and biology as first.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so it's five years. But do you know that you when you come back now you're gonna just jump in and become a doctor? Or what was the plan? Were you gonna be able to do that?
SPEAKER_00So I knew obviously you don't do anything without research. So I knew that I had to to write a board exam.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um and I prepared for that.
SPEAKER_02So you were planning to go to Mauritius and come back and be a doctor here in South Africa? Yeah. That was always the plan.
SPEAKER_00That was my plan. Yeah. A lot of people didn't come back. Um they went to the UK and to the US and but I wanted to come back here.
SPEAKER_02So you knew that you're gonna have to write this board exam.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then I planned for it. So I had known a lot of people um who had written before me. And also, as I said, our a lot of our cousins are in medicine. So they were already consultants, and a lot of their registrars that they interacted with um obviously gave them feedback, and they had a f uh quite a few people who had written the board exam. And I got information from them. And um I used a lot of the South African um university's material to prepare for the board exam.
SPEAKER_02So wait, so you come back after you've got your degree, and then you're not allowed to practice here. You have to wait for an entrance exactly.
SPEAKER_00You have to write, so as with any country, you have to write an entrance exam.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um so when you go to the US, you write the US MLE, go to the UK, you write PLAB. So in South Africa, you write a board exam.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the HPCSA board exam.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, which is an entry level.
SPEAKER_02So how long did you sit here doing nothing before that exam?
SPEAKER_00Well, it wasn't nothing. I studied. Oh well, yeah, not practicing.
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So um I came back in December, I wrote in Feb and April, because there are two parts a theory and a practical. Yeah. And then I think I did the practical in UP.
SPEAKER_02Petrolia.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I came to I stayed with you, I think.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And I then the practical, and then I started work in June.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you started practicing six months after you came back to South Africa. And then what do you do? You do internship.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so internship, comserve, and then I went into MO time, so which is medical officer time.
SPEAKER_02Two years of internship, one year of community service that you did at Standerton Hospital. The internship you did at RKCon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. In So that's two years in Chatsworth.
SPEAKER_02In Chatsworth, Durban.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then after that, what happens?
SPEAKER_00So I wanted, as I said, I wanted to do surgery.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, when did you discover this?
SPEAKER_00So as an intern.
SPEAKER_02At RKCon. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um so I did working with Sandir Bay and company. Yeah. So I applied for MO time. So MO time is a medical officer. Um, because I had heard that Kimberley had a very good surgical department.
SPEAKER_02Kimberly in the Northern Cape.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00So I applied for an MO post there and I got it. I was lucky, I got it. So I didn't have any uh lag in I didn't waste any time not working in between comserve and and MO time. Because now it's it's quite difficult to get public jobs.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, because you know, for a lot of reasons. Right, right. But I was lucky I got a a post. Yeah. And I went to Kimberley.
SPEAKER_02And that was From Durban to Kimberley. No, uh from Stanerton to Kimberly.
SPEAKER_00So I worked in quite a few provinces. Yeah. Um Pumalanga, KZN, the Northern Cape, and Mauritius. Mauritius. And then Reg Time was Chao Tang.
SPEAKER_02Chauteng, KZN.
SPEAKER_00And then you also rotate in the northwest. So this guy was at SMU.
SPEAKER_02This thing takes you a lot of places in the country, uh, this studying thing. I mean, I guess a lot of people have to go through this. It's probably not you unique to you, except for the Mauritius part.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But if you're gonna be planning on specializing, you might need to You have to be flexible.
SPEAKER_00So if you want to wait for a post in Cape Town, for example, or KZN, um, and you're not getting it and it's full, you might wait like what, 10 years.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, but something might pop up somewhere else, and then you have to move.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so Kimberly?
SPEAKER_00So Kimberly, yeah. So Kimberly was quite uh an a great opportunity. It was the best decision I made, I think, because um the department is run by Dr. Baiat.
SPEAKER_02Um Dr. Bayet?
SPEAKER_00Dr. Bayet's a general surgeon. So um, and then there were there were two, three other consultants at the time. So Dr. Kimi, who was a uh when I got there, he had just finished his training. So he was a new, newly minted surgical consultant. Um so he was very still very theory oriented. Okay. So we learnt a lot from him. And then Dr. Blanco and Dr. DeToy. So amazing consultants.
SPEAKER_02Surgeon specialists. Four.
SPEAKER_00Four, which is now a vascular surgeon. Okay. Um, Dr. Blanco, um, one of the most amazing surgical talents I think I've ever come across. He can do anything. Yeah. And uh and Dr. Bayet was amazing and is amazing. He's still in Kimberley, still running the department. Um, actually, like a few weeks ago, I was talking to a colleague and we were trying to um figure out how many surgeons Dr. Bayet has and has come and like have come through Dr. Bayet, and it's just amazing. So I think that was a very great like decision to have made was to go through Kimberley because I learned technical skills in Kimberley.
SPEAKER_02That was a good decision because also you're not specializing there, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You you basically it's a it's a part two specialization, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What and then what how does it work? You have to do you have to be an MO in a certain amount, I mean, for a certain amount of time before you can become a specialist, or what was the plan there? I don't know.
SPEAKER_00So I just wanted skill, right? And I didn't realize at the time that in order to get into a registrar post, you had to have independent practice.
SPEAKER_02What do you mean in independent practice registration with the HPCS?
SPEAKER_00And at that time, the HPCSA did not allow you to register as an independent practitioner if you hadn't written another exam.
SPEAKER_02You're talking about as a foreign qualified doctor. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So foreign qualified doctors back then had to write a second exam in order to get independent practice.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, which didn't really make sense to me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because you needed an independent practice to work in power in private and the private sector. Yeah. But to work in the public sector, you didn't need that. Okay. So as a foreign qualified practitioner, you could work in public and treat public patients, but you were not allowed to work in private.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00Or to specialize, um, which was quite difficult to understand.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So um obviously once I looked at applications for um registrar ship, I realized that I didn't um have that independent practice.
SPEAKER_02Right. So either way I was gonna do MOS-COD.
SPEAKER_00Uh when I started medical office at time.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So in that first year I realized that there's this requirement. That yeah, and I was very against writing um another exam that didn't really make sense to me. So um that's when I approached um quite a few people. Yeah. But eventually your um your boss, Dr. I mean uh Maria Philippides was very instrumental in helping.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you came to us and then we helped uh fight your regulator and get you that registration, basically.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um but essentially I spent three years as a medical officer, which I don't think was wasted time. Um because I I when I started Reg Time, I felt like I didn't I didn't behave like I was, but I felt like I was equivalent to a mid-level registrar because of all the surgical techniques and skills that I you know had amassed in Kimberley.
SPEAKER_02So it was a good move going to Kimberley, and so then maybe maybe that if anybody's planning on becoming a surgeon, they must think of going to Kimberley.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I always I always tell people it's it's if you want to, it's the best place to go to.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00One of the best.
SPEAKER_02And then you get into after the MO time, you get into Sefako Machato University.
SPEAKER_00So no. After MO time, well, not after, you can do MO time for as long as you want, but I decided to uh come to Joburg. So I actually came to Helen Joseph as a medical officer. Right. And then I applied for a registrar post, got in, started regime in the on the in the Vith Circuit, and then I transferred over to Sefahu Machato.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um and I had my own reasons for that. Um I wanted to work with Prof.
SPEAKER_02Prof.
SPEAKER_00So Prof. is the basically the president of the College of Surgery now, uh, but back then um Prof Koto was well known for being very forward thinking with regards to minimally invasive surgery.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So laparoscopy. Um and I really wanted to be in Sefahu Machato. Um wasn't easy though.
SPEAKER_02Cafez was very um, you know, singing Prof.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's amazing. Um he's he's pioneering minimally invasive surgery.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And in in South Africa, which is a third world country, well developing country, yeah. Yeah, well, he he gets a lot of pushback. Um so he fights uh he has fought many battles, but it's at a point where laparoscopy, minimally invasive surgery is now very, very popular in South Africa. And if you are a young upcoming surgeon, you can't really go forward without knowing how to do minimally invasive surgery. And he really was a pioneer. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And even before that.
SPEAKER_00So he's still the head of uh SMU, Sefako Makato. He's also the president of the College of Surgery. Okay. So I've when I got that post, um, obviously it was quite difficult to now ask the bosses or to to tell adverts to tell them, look, I I'm leaving and I want to transfer across. Um that's a bit awkward. It was the most awkward month probably of my life. Yeah. But but um but for my career, uh, it was something that I I had to do. Yeah. So I transferred over to SMU, and then that's where I did my surgery training.
SPEAKER_02Okay, for how many years? That's four years, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's four plus one. So I well plus some people have a clause plus one, so five years. Um so you do surgery, your surgical training, and you do a master's in medicine, general surgery. So I did my master's and I did my surgical training at SMU.
SPEAKER_02And these are just these are all just basic requirements to become a specialist surgeon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I did, I was there for four years. So then I decided. So look, as I said, Kimberly was very instrumental in preparing me because I knew also that I needed to do a master's.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And I formulated with Dr. Kimmy, it was very helpful. I formulated an idea of what my masters could be.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00When I was in Kimberley.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00And uh this was something that helped me finish my master's in like two and a half years. Okay. So by the time I finished, I wrote just after 36 months. I finished and I resigned at four years. So you need 48 months of training to register with HPCSA as a surgeon.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So my paperwork was all done.
SPEAKER_02I and then what do you do after that, after specializing?
SPEAKER_00So I took some time off um just to figure out what I wanted to do.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So I didn't know whether I wanted to go directly into sub-specialization um or if I wanted to stay on and do a little more time. Um, because my con my contract was. Yeah. Okay. So because I didn't I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Why do I not remember this? But anyway. I think a lot of people feel this way. You so you can go one of two ways. Like you can just continue down the academia route. And because after you finish, there's like a dip. Because you you prepare for this exam for four to five years of your life.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you always like it's adrenaline, adrenaline, and then you write, you finish, and then you don't know what to do.
SPEAKER_02So how long was you on the sabbatical?
SPEAKER_00Uh, four months. Four months?
SPEAKER_02When did where does money come from?
SPEAKER_00Like So I I plan for it. Oh, okay, okay. You plan and you see it. Yeah, I plan for it. So then I got a call from prof um saying that he had a saying that he had a consultant post at SMU. And I was looking at I was even looking at uh what the options were private, public, subspec. And then um he he said he had a post. So I decided, okay, let me let me go back. Because there were a lot of things that I still wanted to do, especially research-wise. Okay. So after doing the MMED, I really enjoyed research and I wanted to operate.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So went back to SMU, um, did quite a lot.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, that's where I also continued the research route. I presented my research. Yeah. I won the SEALs Antrobus prize, was sent to the US to present.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you mentioned the US. I was going to get to that. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh that was awesome.
SPEAKER_02Well, let's talk about that later, but I want to hear about now this. So you go, you're four months, you're not working, then you go back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Luckily you save money. You go and you're working in the public sector at SMU, Sefako Mokato University as a specialist surgeon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I got a consultant post and I worked in the breast unit.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So I was there under Prof. Mm-hmm as the junior consultant.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I worked there for two from 2022 to 2024. Yeah. So two years.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Why that unit?
SPEAKER_00Um do you pick it? Well, he uh prof said he had an opening there.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And I I was interested in it as well. Um breast surgery was interesting. Yeah and I knew that there was a need. So Prof Mukoni didn't have a junior consultant, and I thought I could um help her out, you know, provide a service because the breast clinic was was one of the busiest clinics.
SPEAKER_02And what do you do there?
SPEAKER_00So breast surgery patients, so any breast disease patient, not everyone always thinks of cancer, but any breast disease.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um and then they also had a very long backlog of patients waiting for surgical intervention. So it made sense for there to be more than one consultant in the unit.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And also when you're on call, you're on call for general surgery. So I still and trauma. So I still got a chance to do my general surgery and trauma, and on top of that, learn a bit more. So the unit also gave chemotherapy, which is the only unit in the country to give physician-administered chemo, for surgeon-administered chemotherapy. Wow. So it is a skill that I definitely, you know, was lucky to be exposed to to experience, yeah, because prof started that herself. And because there's there is no oncologist at SMU. And it's interesting because George Mukari Hospital is the second largest hospital in Africa.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Second only to Barra.
SPEAKER_02And well oncologists. Still now. Wow.
SPEAKER_00So, well, I think they now have a medical oncologist, but he doesn't have staff. So there's not much he can do. So that was definitely something awesome to have done.
SPEAKER_02And tell me about the US now. What was this uh prize that you won?
SPEAKER_00So I presented my research at the What was your research?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I presented my so there's a there's an annual conference where all registrars and consultants, whoever, get to present research that they've done. So a lot of registrars do present their M meds. So my MMED, obviously, which was your master's in medicine, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which was done.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um was on delays in newly diagnosed breast cancer patients.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00At two institutes. So I used George Mukari and I used um Robert Mangali Susubuko Hospital, which is Kimberley.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So I compared the two to look at what the delays were. And the delays were vast. So um I presented this at at the SRS, which is the Southern African Research Research Society. Um I presented it there, and then I won a prize. I won the prize. Yeah. Which was the it's called the SEALs Anthrobus Breast Cancer Research Award.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And um they sent me to America to present my research.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So which was cool because it was the American Surgical Congress. Right. And that year I went in 2023. So that was in Texas. So I went to Texas.
SPEAKER_03Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_00And I got I had a mentor there and um someone who introduced me to a lot of different surgeons in the field, um, ranging from like pediatric surgery, general surgery, um, endocrine. And then you it's it's a huge conference, a national conference. So you also get surgeons from all over this the US.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And a lot of uh surgeons from Colombia, um, many different countries.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_00So it was really awesome because I got to present and I represented South Africa, and then you interact and people can ask you questions on your research. So a lot of them didn't realize that we had such great delays.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um but then our issues were different. The US was dealing with gun um law issues, which then bled into um issues with doctors because they wanted doctors to become more vocal. And you never ever bring politics into medicine, right? It shouldn't be that way. But it's it they just had very different issues to deal with. Yeah, yeah. And they're obviously their abortion laws, which they were quite uh amazed to hear that our abortion laws were a lot more tenable than theirs.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So it was really cool, and I've made good contacts. Um, so that was awesome.
SPEAKER_02Okay, then uh 2024, you said that's when you stopped.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02In public. What happened then?
SPEAKER_00So I always wanted to sub-specialize. Um, but I felt like look, you know, when you get into academia, you never stop. Okay. And then it's it's a slippery slope because you want to do the next thing. You want to do the next project and you want to subspecialize, and then subspecializing leads to something else, and other aspects of your life sort of fall away.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I've seen it happen to a lot of people. So I had to decide, am I gonna go straight into subspec? Um, or am I gonna look at something different? And I decided let me just take a step back and look at something that I haven't, you know, been into before. I've never done private.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um also at that time, uh sort of worked out because mom was not well and gave me a lot more time to be more flexible with my schedule. So I decided to to look at private. And yeah, it's been it's been awesome.
SPEAKER_02Okay, no regrets.
SPEAKER_00No. All right. I don't I don't say that I'm not gonna go back to to looking at studying again. Where are you subspecializing?
SPEAKER_02Private.
SPEAKER_00So I'm in the Northern Cape. Where's this? So I went back, yeah. I went back to the Northern Cape.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um not Kimberley this time.
SPEAKER_00No, not Kimberley, but I still I'm lucky enough to work with Dr. Byts. Uh, I give call him quite often because he's still in Kimberley.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so where are you?
SPEAKER_00So I'm in Katu.
SPEAKER_02Katoo.
SPEAKER_00And uh that's about five hours from Kimberley.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, so the the Northern Cape is the biggest province in South Africa. Right. So um and population is vastly spread out. So I think I'm in Katu, but the closest um basically we deal with 200 kilometers radius of patients. Okay. Because they don't have access to to a private facility.
SPEAKER_03Right, right.
SPEAKER_00Um, so it's very rewarding. Um and it's cool. I'm I'm enjoying it. I don't have any regrets. I obviously do miss academia.
SPEAKER_02I heard there's an airport there that closes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's a mining town. It's a mining town. So Anglo-American um built the and funded the airport.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So obviously the Anglo-American executives and and mining um uh execs and all of them, they essentially closed the airport down. Uh so I've been told.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Um, between the 16th of December to Yeah, just to clearly I'm just trying to give the listeners and the viewers like a sense of it's quite a small town, but at least it has an airport.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you worked in places like it's a small town, but for anyone who's worked in a mining town, um I mean the mine employs over 70,000 people.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So it's small in the sense that maybe people don't know about it. Uh area-wise, it's small, but it is a a very bustling town. Like it's it's busy. And I'm busy. Okay. So I think I'm the only surgeon there.
SPEAKER_02So um what type of work do you do?
SPEAKER_00So look, there's a lot of trauma. Um, and there's a lot of I mean, uh a patient with appendicitis doesn't need to travel now 300 kilometers.
SPEAKER_02Can you say trauma? Like what?
SPEAKER_00So motor vehicle accidents, remember, there are a lot of like car accidents, some of the roads aren't great. So you get a lot of motor vehicle accidents.
SPEAKER_02And crime and stuff.
SPEAKER_00And crime isn't isn't really a problem.
SPEAKER_02Um So it's not like um SMU where KFS was saying he sees gunshots and stabs all every day.
SPEAKER_00You still see stabs now and then, but it's nothing like Chauteng or Pretoria or KZN, you know, the that type of trauma. It's more motor vehicle accidents.
SPEAKER_02And um So which is better, private practice or public?
SPEAKER_00I think it's what you want out of it. That if you want to be part of academia and the some rewards that come out of being in public, um, then public is for you. And also you're never alone in public. Okay. You have um a team, yeah. You have a lot of support. So whether it be interns, comserves, uh, medical officers, consultants, registrars, nurses, you have a lot of support. In private, it's you.
SPEAKER_02So you're alone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And MM meetings and all that stuff. You have it with yourself.
SPEAKER_00Well, you do it with the other disciplines in in the hospital. Oh, so you still have it. Obviously, the hospital manager is very key to that. And um it is it's not as regulated as public.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But it is something that does happen.
SPEAKER_02So there might be a private hospital out there that doesn't have these types of things happening.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02MMs and all that.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. Well, I'm I'm generalizing here, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, of course. So that's but but the point I'm making is it's not like a standardized thing that is across the case.
SPEAKER_00As far as I know, obviously I'm not a I'm not a and I'm not in management, so I don't know what has to be done and you know. But we definitely do have them.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So it's very different because I don't have an intern to call at one in the morning to say if a patient's complaining of pain, or I can't call someone who's junior to me and say, Can you and there's no one on site. Um, so it's me. So I have to drive out and see the patient and you consent the patient, you basically doing everything.
SPEAKER_02And what's the language there that uh predominantly spoken there?
SPEAKER_00So Afrikaans.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you're okay with Afrikaans, eh?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm fine with Africans.
SPEAKER_02And how long have you been there?
SPEAKER_00Um so I've been there since June.
SPEAKER_02So it's been like four months?
SPEAKER_00Well, six months.
SPEAKER_02And you you're settling in?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, look, I'm enjoying it. Okay. Um I think there's a a room for growth and it's it's a different side. Private hospital? Lenmed. So LenMed. Yeah, LenMed Private Hospital Cartoon. Okay. So I think there's room for growth in that um from my side. Uh we were never ex uh exposed to the business aspect of of uh healthcare.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's it's very interesting how you now have to deal with business as in the business part of the practice and patient care.
SPEAKER_02You don't get trained on that, yeah. Like we don't get trained on those things. No. Practice management and stuff, don't you have those courses?
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_00So it is very interesting. Because I mean, you know, if you don't treat it like a business, you aren't gonna make you don't have a salary. Yeah. So it's it's up to you to if you don't work for three weeks, you're not gonna make any money for three weeks. Um and if you treat it, don't treat it like a business, also.
SPEAKER_02Well, you have to run the business part, is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but also it's very But your patients. It's a very weird feeling to now have to tell a patient who can't afford something that you can't treat them. Because in public, that's not an issue. Um so I had to learn that.
SPEAKER_02Um That's difficult.
SPEAKER_00I had to learn to tell a patient, look, I unfortunately you you can't. And then what are you doing? Yeah, and it's not necessarily the doc treating doctor. Remember, the hospital itself is a business.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So the hospital fees are something a patient has to pay.
SPEAKER_02So And that you have nothing to do with that.
SPEAKER_00I mean, yeah. So it's not necessarily the doctor's fee or but it's a different scenario altogether.
SPEAKER_02So it's going well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So that's quite interesting.
SPEAKER_02Christmas is coming up. I'll expect a good present soon from you. I'll put I'll tell you exactly what. This was your present. Um Okay, so what do you what do you do for fun? What do surgeons do for fun? Do surgeons have friends and things?
SPEAKER_00Well, apparently I don't have any friends according to you.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I didn't say that.
SPEAKER_00No, I mean, look, I think it is very difficult to to achieve a work-life balance. Okay. Um and that's one of also one of the reasons why I thought leaving public for a little while uh would be good to achieve that. Um but I didn't realize that's the other way around. I didn't realize that.
SPEAKER_02You know, you have the Did you really think that going into private was gonna give you more work-life balance? I would think working in the state, you get leave.
SPEAKER_00Uh no. Well, you have to take leave, but you have to take leave within uh a certain amount like you have to discuss it, you have to look at the roster. You there's so many aspects, but in private it's just you. So if I want to take leave tomorrow, I can take leave tomorrow.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay. You looked at it from that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But I also thought that I could um regulate my hours. Like if I want to do a clinic on a certain day of the week, that's what I want to do. Whereas in public, it's okay, I understand, I understand.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So how's that working out? Well, clearly it is working out because you're here now, aren't you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's been different. It's been difficult also. Like, um, it's been long days and hard work, but I feel like the rewards are also um worth it. Okay. So, like, as you said, now I can take December. Whereas I might have had to fight like five other people for leave in December. Okay, in public.
SPEAKER_02So There's a bit more flexibility like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But But now you're not making money when you're here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I mean you plan for it. So you you can plan and and and say, you know, I've done extract lists or I've done this or that, and then you plan for it, and then you look at January and you book this many for January. So you I mean it's up to you.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um obviously there are pros to working through December. Um, but also you can you need to take time off or you're never gonna get a a break.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Because it's just you. I don't have another surgeon to um rotate with. Yeah. As I said, I'm the only surgeon in the hospital.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So um, unless someone else comes on board, uh that's that's how it's gonna be. I'm on call every day.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And then what do you do for fun? You haven't told me? So you just do surgery and think about surgery. But don't you go on holidays at the time?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So uh before you used to travel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think rage time sort of uh made a dent and COVID in my traveling plans.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So I traveled a lot as a medical officer. So I think that's definitely something. Good old days. Yeah. And then after edge time, I traveled, started traveling again. So I think that's something that I'm definitely gonna look at doing. And then I want to get into a bit more uh well, I need to gain to get some goals sorted out. So I'm gonna swim the midma. Oh. So I'm gonna train um Dustin, Dr.
SPEAKER_02Dustin Ramdes, a friend of mine has done that recently. Speak to him. Yeah, we'll get him on the show soon also.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's something I was supposed to do in school and I kept putting it off. So I'm definitely gonna swim the midma. Midma mile. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02How long is that? Uh 1.6 kilometers. Anything else interesting coming up?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think we're gonna start some some training, some golf. I want to get into golf.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. And Kato.
SPEAKER_00Well, uh Katoo, I live on a golf course. So anyone who wants to come to Khatu, it's the ninth best golf course in the country.
SPEAKER_02We really need to get then that Dr. Sandir Bay Maraj needs to come to Katoo and meet you, the surgeon that we've been talking about. Because he's a big golfer, him and Dustin.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's an awesome golf estate, and the golf course is great. So um my colleague is uh is the radiologist that I work with, he's a trainer. Yeah, he trains kids. Okay. So I'm gonna go for lessons and start playing some golf in the new year, hopefully.
SPEAKER_02All right, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, but before you buy the golf equipment and stuff, it's Christmas, so my present must come.
SPEAKER_00No, you were very mean in this interview.
SPEAKER_02Really? Was I? Okay, well, so let's see what the the comments on because the comments have been brutal. Um anyway. The last question, uh it's a bit of the theme uh on the show. If somebody had to come to you and say, I want I'm thinking of uh doing medicine in general what would you say to them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you know, I I used to get very irritated when like as a no, I mean, um when I noticed that when someone says, Oh, I want to do medicine, and the response was don't do medicine, it's terrible. And so I I mean you can only tell someone what your experience has been. And you know, they need to make that decision for themselves. And if you're doing medicine for the right reasons, um, then I think it's very rewarding.
SPEAKER_03What's the right reasons?
SPEAKER_00You should never do medicine to make money.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Because there are much easier ways to make money. I'm not saying the money is.
SPEAKER_02You tell me the wrong reasons, but what's the right reason?
SPEAKER_00No, I mean the right reasons are if you enjoy dealing with patients. So if you're a people person, if you don't want to deal with people then and you want to do medicine, then you're gonna have to look at something like hematology or something where you uh you don't interact with patients. Yeah. Um but if you don't like patients and you don't like interacting with people, then medicine isn't for you.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And then obviously hard work. Um because even if you decide, look, I'm doing medicine because I want to do something that's hold on a little less stressful.
SPEAKER_02You would I I I just it just clicked in my mind. You enjoy working with people, eh?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I do.
SPEAKER_02All right.
SPEAKER_00I see you as an introvert though, but just because I I'm uh I behave in a certain way at home doesn't mean I behave the same at work.
SPEAKER_03All right.
SPEAKER_00Um, but also, yeah, I think, and I'm sure a lot of people in the profession will back me up. When you come home, you just want to do nothing.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Because you deal with people and you deal with stressful situations every day and sometimes night. And when you come home, you just want to watch TV and sit on the couch. I think you speak for yourself.
SPEAKER_02I know a lot of doctors that come home and then they want to go and play pedal and do this.
SPEAKER_00Oh well, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But anyways.
SPEAKER_02So you would say, what would you say to somebody thinking of medicine?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if you if you really want to do it, I think first research, shadow someone.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, that's the best way to learn.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And and shadow someone who who's going to allow you to come in with them to like some sort of scenario. Go to theater if you, you know, go to casualty, go sit in a GP's office with them, see how they interact with patients, see if it's something that you're gonna like.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um if it's not, if that's not the good for you, then I I really don't think you should do it.
SPEAKER_02You were talking about coming home and watching TV. I know you do that a lot. Um, which TV show is like the most accurate representation of like medicine? Is it Grey's Anatomy or is it ER or is it Scrubs, or what is it? Any of them? Or none of the?
SPEAKER_00ER, I don't really remember because I was a bit I don't know, we were a bit young for ER, I think.
SPEAKER_02I heard Scrubs is quite realistic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but not everyone everyone looks like a JD and you know, a Turk. Uh so so it's not as glamorous as as the TV shows, none of them actually. Everyone wants it to be like Grey's Anatomy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, because they spend more time doing other things than the actual medicine.
SPEAKER_02But I think Honestly, it doesn't sound glamorous to me at all. Like I just it sounds stressful, it sounds a lot of work, it sounds like I honestly there were they were bad times, but I love it.
SPEAKER_00That's fine. I loved it. I loved it.
SPEAKER_02To me, like listening to this, and I'm and I appreciate actually the openness and um because this is what people need to hear, you know, the real story. And they can make up their mind. Some people might listen to your story and think, I really want to do that. I can't wait. Personally, I'm like, I would not want to do this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, as I said, um, you must understand, as with any job, there are gonna be times where you wish you hadn't done it. Um and I think it's certain points in in your career as an intern, also maybe because I studied abroad, um, people were not very welcoming when I came back. So my first month of internship was terrible.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, I really didn't like it. But I got into it and it was the best two years of my life. And then as I said, when you're about to write your first exam, you wonder why you did it, your second exam, you know, things like that.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And if you didn't become a surgeon, what what do you what you see yourself as?
SPEAKER_00In terms of still in the medical field.
SPEAKER_02No, no, just anything.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I have no idea. I've never thought of it.
SPEAKER_02Never thought of it. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Oh, game ranger. Oh but then I don't like uh I'm a bit scared of snakes and stuff. So I don't know. But yeah, maybe a game ranger. Or something maybe in as I said, I did art and drama, so maybe English literature, maybe art, something along those lines.
SPEAKER_02Alright, cool. Well, yeah, thank you for coming on the show. I appreciate it. It was not without much uh prodding and trying and forcing on my part. So I appreciate it. And I I learned a lot, and I hope the people that watched this also learned something. So and uh get get some good insight. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's a Christmas present, so okay, thanks.
SPEAKER_02I want a new iPad. Okay. Cheers, thank you.