SPEAKER_02 0:00

Yak, Dr. Lindy, Dr. Yak, thank you so much for joining me today. To our listeners and people watching on YouTube, um my first guest, this is the first proper interview episode last week was a bit of a intro by me. I've got Yak here. Yak, I want to say to you firstly, you know, thanks so much for taking a chance on me, man. I mean this is I'm untried, I'm untested, I'm not a professional interviewer. True story. You've got um a big following and a big profile online and everywhere else. So thanks so much for just risking it on me. I don't know whether it's family or whatever, but I really appreciate it. Before we start, I just want to share some feedback with the listeners and the viewers about my first episode that I put up last week, which was me. If you haven't watched it, go and check it out on the channel on YouTube. But it's essentially me sitting at my veranda and in at my house.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Yeah, I watched that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Yeah. And so I just want to give everyone a flavor of the types of friends and followers I have. So I'm going to read out verbatim my favorite feedback from a confidant, right? So this is verbatim. It says, remove the pot plant. Don't wear that white t-shirt again. It looks like you just woke up out of bed. Sound a little more enthusiastic. Your tone is way too serious. It's like a heavy 13 minutes to watch. People don't want to watch something where the host sounds like he works for SARS. You're talking about serious bleep, and you have your kids paint on the pole next to you while you're in sleep mode. So, yeah, that's the feedback on first episode. I can't wait for the feedback. Jeez, that's your who's that? Friends and family. With friends like that, who needs enemies, right? No, but jokes aside, I am super grateful for um that kind of feedback. I don't want sugarcoating. I mean, at the end of the day, I took a chance, took a shot in the dark with this thing. There's an idea, there's always going to be room for improvement. This is episode 1.1. So let's get into it. Thank you so much again, Yak.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Um you're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

I No further questions.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

No further questions from you. But you feel free to ask questions, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:19

No, of course. Yeah. Are you allowed to say who gave that feedback?

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Look, we'll we'll we'll we'll check later. I don't want to offend anybody overnight. But I'm sure this person would be comfortable disclosing their name. I'm gonna start off. Now you know I've been into this podcast for a while. I've always been telling you I want to start a podcast and it's been an idea. And so I've been like researching and trying to brush up my skills of conversation and things like that, right? Not really not actively, but wherever I see a podcast, I try and listen to what the person's saying and figure out. And coincidentally, there was this TED talk that came up literally last week on my feed. And the person said there's an experiment that you must go out and ask strangers. So I'm gonna ask this question and I want you to please be open and honest with me. And I promise I'll be open and the rest of your followers. Yeah, okay. Just for this question. Yeah. I also want to make it clear that I said to the people when we introduced this podcast that I want it unscripted and I want it authentic. So I didn't send you a script, I didn't send you a list of questions either. So you going into this a bit blind, so I can imagine it's a bit you know, uncharted water. Daunting. And daunting. And I want to just assure you, if there's any question that you're not comfortable answering.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

No further questions.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Just say, look, let's move on. I'm not even gonna say we can cut it out. We can just move on.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

If need be, we can cut it out. But this first question, I I'm asking you, please, try your best.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

It's like he's asking for money for airtime or something. All the memories are coming back.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

And I'm happy well, Yak is alluding to memories because we grew we basically grew up together. But here's the question.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Okay, okay, you carry on with your question. I was gonna actually give um like people our backstory. People do most people know how we are related, first of all, or also the history that we have um together as not just as professionals, because I we did actually work together in um in Pumalanga and ComServe. Um no, no, you were you were in you were in first year post-comserv, and then I got into comserv when when Youth got into ComServ. Okay, but anyway, I digress. So Yash is my mother's sister's son. So he's not like my cousin, like my cousin vibes, he's uh biologically related to me. Um and we yeah, we basically grew up together because most of our family, most of our cousins, were actually here up in Johannesburg. And uh we always make a joke that there's uh there's Jobaces and then there's there's the Natal cousins, and there's uh there's a different demeanor um between the two. And I wouldn't actually call it demeanor because it's you know like a link.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

There's a different link, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah, like I mean, for example, your sister and my sister, you myself, we all went into like a medical-related uh uh profession. And for purposes of this podcast, everyone else in Joe Berg uh didn't really. Okay, that's good. So uh yeah, why don't you use a useful context?

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

So I mean, and then it's Durban. Then you're looking at cultural context context as well, where our parents or the society as a whole more structured and geared in Natal towards like you know, that sort of academics and and study academics and culture, and also the you know, the predisposition of uh of um of what it is to be uh Indian, actually.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Yeah. I was gonna say you're making this very Indian now by talking about family and cousins, but it it's okay, that's fine. Well, you are my cousin. And I said we want to keep it authentic, but here's the first question, yak?

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yes. When was the last time you cried in front of someone? And tell me about it. And I'm just telling you about it. And I promise I'll tell you about mine.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

I gotta think back pretty hard because I I haven't really um in a while. I assumed there was gonna be an easy answer, but anyway. No, not to say I'm not I'm not a crier, but I think uh of late I've been more resilient towards uh not showing outward uh uh emotions. I'm gonna say, yeah. Like I I was gonna call it a flaw of emotion, but it's not really. I don't think crying is is a flaw. But um I've been resilient more inwardly. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Um maybe you wanna start when was the last time you cried in front of someone?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

I've got to think about it. This is the thing. I mean, it's it's not for for lack of crying, but um I think it would actually be with my friends Elton and Claudia.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Um they unfortunately had a um incident that happened to them of uh criminal nature. And um yeah, I I went there early in the morning uh because they called me. Um when I got there, they were very frazzled. They're very emotionally stable people. Um but just for me to see them that way, uh, it it made me very emotional as well. Okay. Yeah. So that was recently, like yeah, maybe about a month, two months ago now.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Okay. Well, thanks for sharing. I appreciate it. Now I have to answer. Mine was easy. It was just now before we we start putting. Well, I mean, look, it was it was when I had to tell my manager, my boss, at work that my mum had been diagnosed with cancer. This was a few months ago. And I wasn't I wasn't really expect it was unexpected. That's the that's the funny thing about crying in front of somebody else, for me personally. The only times it's ever happened, I can probably count on a f well, I don't know, actually, but it's unexpected. And so when I told I had to tell my manager this because, you know, there were going to be changes in my life. And when I saw her reaction, it was one of such deep sorrow that I I didn't want somebody to feel sorry for me, and then suddenly I started choking up.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

So yeah, that's uh that's But if I if I can ask you, I mean, this is it's your manager. I don't know what the personal relationship with your manager is. But from the time, I mean, what was the difference between I mean your mom telling you that she had cancer as opposed to you telling somebody else? There obviously is a deeper relationship with your mother. How come you didn't cry then as opposed to when you're telling someone like that well think about if you think about it, I would have found out about my mum much earlier.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

So I'm not saying that that wasn't cry then. But my question is when was the last time I cried in front of them? So that was the more recent thing. Oh, so you did cry when your mum told me. Well, you see, that I uh I'm the one asking the question here yet. Yeah, you said I'm like, Yes, I did. I did. I mean, that's natural. It's not it's not nothing to worry, uh hide about, but or feel bad about, but yeah. So that's the experiment done.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

And I'll tell you at the end, and our listeners will tell us at the end whether the experiment worked, that question. It's a question that they say go and ask yourself. Experimenting on me, yeah, my consent. No problem. So so what was it like growing up in Maritzburg?

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Irony, well not irony, dramatic. What what do you call it? Coincidence? Coincidentally, yeah. I was in Maritzburg last weekend.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Um, and you know, I went, I I drove around, I went through like my childhood home and and visiting parts of Meritzburg and uh just seeing what it was, and it was so lush and green and unkept, like very raw. And it kept reminding me of my childhood because that's what it was. It was very authentic, it was very raw. Like you could just hop on a bike and go drive like cycle on the road. Is that what you used to do as a kid? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

A lot of um, I mean, didn't you used to have some sort of gang of kids around with?

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Yeah, we our cycle gang. Your parents would just let you loose. Oh, they were they were not on the no, but I think even if they they did know that we were cycling on the street, they did you still use a helmet? No, of course not.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Okay. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

I mean nowadays we use other forms of protection.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Yeah. Okay, knee guards and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

All right, so knee guard. I mean, Maritzburg, you were there until when? From birth until Until 2002.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

No, actually, yeah, 2002 was when I matriculated. 2003, that's when I started engineering. Um engineering. And then you you got a well, we had to do our first year in Maritzburg. Um then campus moved second, third year, and the rest to UKZN in Durban. So yeah, 2003, 2004 is when I left Maritzburg to come and actually stay with you at your house.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you mentioned engineering, right? Mm-hmm. And I guess you're getting ahead of me in my in my chronology of things that I planned out. But sorry. But we'll take it we'll take it back. We'll take it back to the past, right? What's the first memory you had growing up of the career or the job you wanted to do? I'll tell you what mine was. I for some reason I wanted to be a truck driver. You know, I was a little lighty.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Yeah, I remember you saying that.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

I wanted to be a truck driver, and I think maybe it's because I used to have a little toy truck that I used to pull around when I was following my uh grandfather in the garden while um or you know, my tata in the garden when I thought. But um, you know, what was your I mean, what can you first remember? I I I have a memory of you wanting to be something, so I just want to see if it if it correlates.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

I I'm gonna give you like an all-encompassing answer because I knew obviously knew this was gonna come about the name of the podcast. But to be honest, I had no aspirations to be anything. Yeah, I I used to maybe say stuff, but when people asked me, you know, things with with expecting more of a definitive answer, I used to say things based on what I used to hear. And it was Or were you gonna say astronaut? Yeah, I was gonna say astronaut. And why did I want to become an astronaut? Because my sister always wanted to become an astronaut. She was the reason we went to NASA and Columbia and all of that. I mean, I thought it's because your parents took you on a trip to America and then you went and visited. They took us on a trip to America because my sister wants you to be an astronaut.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Oh, okay. I mean, at that time. Now we have favorite kitties, right? Your parents take you anywhere for for something you are doing.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Harare was Zimbabwe. Okay. All right. My seventh birthday. But yeah. So you didn't really want to be an astronaut, it was just uh I exactly, because I thought I did. I thought I wanted to be an astronaut, but I subsequently found out about like this about myself, is that I'm I'm very impressionable. Is that the right term? Yeah. Impressionate. Impressionable. Impressionable, yeah, I guess so. Uh alginate.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Depends what you're trying to say, but let's hear it. Because there's a running joke in our family for the listeners, by the way, that Yak uses words in the absolute wrong context.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

I like I like to use uh some words in order to sound osmosis.

unknown 13:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Do you see that meme?

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Yeah, I I get you. I get you.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Uh yeah, so I think So Astronaut was the was the osmosis reaction. More than likely, yeah. And then But I'm thinking about this in retrospect now because back then I didn't know. Yeah, yeah. That's what I thought I wanted to be.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

But um And you use retrospect correctly. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Um, so yeah, it was it would be astronaut.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Okay, so nothing uh I mean also for context for the for the listeners, Yak mentioned the whole KZN, Durban, Leon family type of thing. But none of our parents and we come from a big family of of cousins, none of our parents were in healthcare. Am I right? Not not one of our parents was a doctor or a dentist or anything. Well, I wasn't a shakun and Nas. Yeah, but not not from what we knew. Yeah. I mentioned this because I I've been thinking about this a lot and it'll make more sense a bit later. But let's pause there. So that was Meritzburg, that was childhood. You thought you wanted to be an astronaut and you visited NASA. What about Durban? Because you moved there. Then you moved.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

I wanted to be an Indian, so then I thought, let's go with them.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

But you chose engineering. Why? Because of the uh the whole NASA thing. Didn't you say you wanted to study aeronautical engineering? Aeronautical engineering or something.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah, so I think I yes, as a memory serves me correct. I think I did apply for aeronautical engineering. I think I might have gotten into it at Witz, but then I think at some stage there was a change in um in the So the astronaut thing, it still was there in mind at the end of Matric and all of that.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Because you apply in Matric, right? You apply for engineering or Yeah, no, of course.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

But I mean Is it all a blur for you, yak? It it is, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Life has changed much. But uh So just on a womb, there's nobody in in in in school, there's no like career guidance counselor that comes and takes does an aptitude test and they probably did, but uh you know, this is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Like I had no aspirations to be anything in particular. Did you ask your parents? What they thought I wanted to be.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

What what what should I do? Mom, dad, what what did your folks do?

SPEAKER_01 15:39

If you my mom was in the bank. I don't entirely know what she did there. I think she was like project manager. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um my dad was uh environmental health inspector for the municipality at some health link.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah. No, it was it's more like public health, I think. Okay. Uh what we're what we'd call public health now. But I know you used to have do you ever be have you ever been to his office? No. He had like grats and like uh was it motz, they were nailed to like the like a cabinet in a cabinet. Taxidermy type of thing. Did I hope I'm hoping so.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Okay. So you didn't take advice from folks. You just did your own we didn't have internet those days.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Like properly. Well we did, but it was dial-up and you had to make sure nobody picks up the exact line.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Disturb the neighborhood.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

And you just said uh I mean, maybe friends influenced you or not like there must be something, yeah. Couldn't it just gone iny, mini, mini more engineering? And what type of engineering?

SPEAKER_01 16:36

It was yeah, so this is what I'm saying. I think it was aeronautical because of that subliminal influence. I'm calling it subliminal because I get you. It was now in retrospect, I probably thought about it back then. I was like, hmm, I wonder if I can actually be an astronaut. And what's the closest thing? Aeronautical engineering. I I I never I didn't even used to call it engineering. I used to say I want to be an engineer because I thought that was the tongue to as an engineer.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Um and Anesh would vouch for that because he used to like it's like when people do actuarial science, then some people think you're gonna be an actuarial scientist. Yeah. But I think you you call it an actuary, yeah. Anyway, we digress. So you did that, you went to tell me about Durban.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Durban was it was hectic because it was a little bit out of my comfort zone. Um, I mean, I grew up in Meritzburg, very isolated. We went to Carter, um, and then you then you get exposed to like the like real life, yeah, being on campus, especially. Yeah. And lots of freedom. Um, you know. Even though you were staying at our house. You know, I was staying at your house, yeah. There was there was lots of freedom. Because I mean, you your parents were involved, your dad was probably as strict as. But there was a time I remember he was he was almost like getting lit, yeah, like like thawing out, actually. Yeah. Which um I'm not bringing him uh Uncle Creature.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Don't drag my my dad in the podcast, please.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

But um yeah, there was no I I had a I had a lot of freedom and I didn't know what to do with it. So I there was a naughty side in me that came out that um uh Well, I mean let's say adventurous, I guess. Maybe it was the beginning if you're maybe irresponsible would be a middle ground between those two words. Because I mean I did do things that were Okay, but did you not attend class?

SPEAKER_02 18:21

We don't have to talk about anything dodgy, but I mean you didn't go to class, you weren't paying attention. You wouldn't um you wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah, I mean I'd I'd skip class, I would go there. Uh our third in the our triad yeah of um doers, who we call ourselves. Um he was on campus as well, but I mean Yuri, if anyone knows Yuri, he's very um he's he's level-headed and yeah, yeah. I should have taken uh a leaf out of his book, but no, I'd see him going to class from the biggest.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

You should have also taken a page out of his book.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Yeah, not just the leaf.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

There's no leaves in books, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

It's made out of the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

That's a perfect example of Yak using the wrong word, even though it's a four-letter word.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

We're taking it taking a leaf out of his book or page. Yeah. Okay, no, you're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

So yeah, on to engineer. So basically you weren't paying attention.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

I wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

You weren't interested. You got into it because it was a subliminal Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

And I when I got into it, I realized that I didn't like it. Look, I passed a few subjects, a majority. One thing that got me down though was thermofluid uh processes, which is something that I uh uh, you know, well subsequently failed and got kicked out of engineering because so I mean when I see like water doing this, like I get nightmares. You get um Yeah, but that's were Were you ever called lazy or anything?

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Did anybody say that you're lazy? I I'll tell you why I'm asking. Because I don't think that there's such a thing as a lazy person, honestly, because I've been called lazy many times in my life by people close to me and people not so close to me. Why? I just think there's nobody there's no motivation.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Yeah, or aptitude.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Well, yes, I mean it might be that I'm I have no motivation to do X, but if I'm really into Y and Z, I'll you know commit a lot of time and effort.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

I'll I'll I'll tend to agree with you there. And if you don't mind me digressing, yeah, I know it is very structured here in this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

But part of about what like the stuff I wanted to speak about, uh I mean, it's not because of my travels or whatever, but the the principle of ikigai. Have you heard about it? It's a Japanese thing, right? Yeah, it's like this it it literally translates to reason for living, okay? Iki, reason and and guy life. But it's this four principle philosophy or type of philosophy being what you are good at, what you can be paid for, what society needs, and um what is the fourth principle now? It's not important if I'm forgetting it. Yeah. But uh to speak to your point, it that's important because if you are doing something that you're not interested in, or if you're doing something that's not actually earning you money, or if you're doing something that is kind of against the societal need or norm or expectation, then you're not kind of fulfilling what your intrinsic desire is.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Okay. And each and and everybody has their own icky guy, right? Or or icky guy is.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yeah, everybody has their own icky guy. I mean, you might find something like uh botany exciting.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Gardening and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Yeah, but can you be paid for it? Are you actually good at it?

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Does the world actually need it?

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Okay.

unknown 21:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Right, so so that's and there was no icky guy for engineering, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Not at all. Makes sense. It makes sense. You got into it. It was a yucky girl.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

It's not like it's not like you'd grown up, I'm desperately want to be an engineer, as you say. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

And then it's of course. I mean, I wasn't my cousin uh Kiss, you know Kiss, my mom's uh my dad's sister's son. He used to whenever I had cars, I used to blow it up with fireworks in in the And what did he become though? He did architecture and uh I I know he was uh

SPEAKER_02 22:00

I thought you were going to say it became became an arsonist or something.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

An arson oh yeah. No, it's not thing he builds stuff now instead of breaking it down.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Creator.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah. They just had a kid actually.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

So then now you've you you've you've you've mentioned now you failed and all that stuff. Got kicked out. You said kicked out.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Kicked out, yeah. They wouldn't let me back in. Excluded, yeah. That's a technical term. And then they they sent me for a profile test.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Okay. Whose day?

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Um the university itself, HR department.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

So yeah, I didn't even know this was a thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Yeah. I didn't know this either.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Yeah. So they made me see this lady. Uh it was like a like psych evaluation. And then she was like, listen, you're not cut out for engineering. And I was like, Yes, I know, I'm failing. I failed. They kicked me out already.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

And she was like, okay, but you do you know where your talents may lie? And I was like, no, not really. And we did this whole test. I sit there for two hours. It was awkward because she sat on the chair with like her legs up like this the whole time. Very relaxed. I think she was trying to make me feel at ease.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

She should have asked you the question, when was the last time you cried in front of something? But anyway. Because that was the purpose of that question. But anyway, go on, yeah. Lady with her feet up here.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

And then the result was psychology.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

And at that stage, I was like, whatever. Right. It's all nonsense. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. But then I chose it. Shout out to our psychologist listeners there, but anyway. And our psychologists as well. Yeah. Um yeah, so at that stage, I didn't think that there was any relevance to what I was going through. I hated that process. It was demeaning, it was terrible. And I was in a in a somewhat of a depression being kicked out not knowing what I'm going to do, no structure.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Give me some context. How many years into the like engineering attempt?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Three and a half.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Three and a half years was the best. So first year was the best three and a half years of your life, or did you make it into second year and third year?

SPEAKER_01 23:57

I was just stumbling along, to be honest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Alright, so it's three and a half years into thinking I can make engineering work. This person comes and does an aptitude type of psych test.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

And says psychology.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Exactly. Three years three and a half years later. And then as I said, I was like, nah, nonsense.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

I know we only have a like a short space of time, so we can't go as deep as we probably want to. But if I had to think about that right now, and if I think about what's made me myself, that's a big part of it, psychology.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Because the thing that I've kind of somewhat figured out about myself is I can be in any sphere of life, but what I actually do like is people. Okay. I like to understand people. I like to figure out what makes them angry, what makes them sad, what makes them happy. And the psychology behind it. Not so much so in the academic uh sphere of what it might might be, but more so like my relativity towards it. Like how do I make you feel? And people.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

You're a people's person.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

Yeah. And um makes total sense to me, yeah. Go on.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yeah, and I think it that it kind of resonates with our family because like when and even with friends and stuff, is that I'm I'm this is gonna sound very egocentric, but I'm diverse enough to go into any unusual circumstance and then just I can vote.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

I can vouch for that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah. And just like just be there and then, you know, and be able to adapt and uh engage with anybody.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

This interaction with this lady that had her legs up on the chair, was that like a pivotal moment? Or what what came to mind?

SPEAKER_01 25:36

No, it wasn't. Yeah. At that stage, I thought that this is nonsense.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Okay, so what happened then?

SPEAKER_01 25:40

So yeah, what happened then?

SPEAKER_02 25:42

I genuinely can't remember this story. So people might be thinking I'm leading you on.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

No, no, you were not there. You started studying dentistry, I think, at that stage. Or you were doing metric or something. I can't remember. But um I actually it it was like the middle of the year, and I thought, uh, okay, uh you can't apply for anything uh else now until the beginning of the year. So I went into this this cycle. I started studying through Unissa.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Okay. Your your university. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they sent me all of this university, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Yeah, so they sent me all of this literature and stuff, didn't even read a word of it. And then like uh Yesha, your sister, she was talking to me and stuff because she was studying in Mauritius at that time. Yeah, she was doing medicine there, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And she just started that first year. And she was like, no, you should come over and blah, blah, blah, whatever. And I think our parents got together. I mean, everyone was worried about me at that stage, and there was a unanimous uh agreement that maybe they should send me over in like December, January time.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

So the fam tried decided to ship you over?

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah, I was exiled. Like like Madiba, as you said.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

So hold on, hold on, hold on. Because I got distracted there by my video equipment.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Now banana.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

You spoke to my sister who was studying medicine in in Mauritius. She said, think about what?

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Coming over to Mauritius. To do what? To do medicine or or dentistry. Okay. Because that was only two things offered at that unit. It's a medical university.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Right. And you thought about it and you you you you've had this recollection of wanting to be of being a people's person. Did you think that didn't be like No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

I that was you just wanted a all of that everything subsequent to me telling you about that lady or the legs up on the chair was a realization that I've come to you in the past couple of months, if not. Oh, recently, okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

So then, how okay, so then there was an inkling towards going them shipping you out of the country. Exactly. Yeah. Putting you on an island and and saying, yeah, go and try and do medicine or dentistry. Is that basically it? And then how did you get into dentistry? Is it one of those things where I applied for both and I got into dentistry?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

No, I think I specifically applied for dentistry, not medicine.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Okay. Wow. Um did you even know what dentist do? Like, did you know a dentist what did you think a dentist did at that stage in your life?

SPEAKER_01 27:57

To be honest, I didn't have much of an interaction with dentists, but I do I did know that it was a very uh secure type of medical the medical fraternity in that the people always? What do you mean? People always single out dentists. Or they always like um So like they You know, there's this running joke about is a dentist actually a doctor? Yeah, okay, you don't want to hear my opinion about, but they it's always I actually do, but yeah, go on. Oh, later on. But I mean at that stage, that's all I knew. There were no memes and stuff about it as much as it is about them. But I'm like, I wonder how I know this, that you know, the dentists uh they always single out as like not being real doctors.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

So you picked dentistry as opposed to medicine.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Okay. And how is that? Well, of Mauritius because people hear Mauritius and they think, oh my gosh, this is a jaw now. And now this part I know. I know it's not a jaw.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Yeah, because you know what the geisha and I went through being there.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

Yeah, just give us uh some flavor a flavor of what Mauritius was like. Dal, Dal Puri. Yeah, okay. I don't even know what it is.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Mauritius Mauritius as an island, like topographically, absolutely beautiful. Where we studied, it was an Indian-run university. As an India, India. As an India, India run. And I know a lot of my colleagues from India will listen to this podcast as well. And they are from India and they will attest to what I'm saying. Yeah. But we had this before you s before you go on, when you say Indian run, I'm thinking India.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

This is now properly because lots of doctors qualify in India and then go around the world, and they're like a lot of them are known as some of the best types of doctors out there. That's my impression when you say Indian run. But go on.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

But I had a problem with authority then at that stage. Okay. Yeah. Well, it's it's it had nothing to do with me.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

At that stage only.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Yeah. Now you don't. Yeah, now I'm pretty chill.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Now I'm the authority. Oh, you see.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Okay, go on. So, yeah. Tell tell us about Mauritius.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Yeah, so when it came to when it came to that academic structure, it was hectic. Very totalitarian. It was like you needed to be wearing a uniform. A uniform at university. At university. I forgot about this. We had a curfew at night. There was a male uh men's um uh what do you call it? Uh hostel. There was a female hostel. Do you get locked up after a certain time? I actually forgot about it. I genuinely forgot about it. Yeah, it was it was pretty hectic. And um and we had a principal there, and uh yeah, I won't mention it. Now wait, hold on. Now I realize why they shipped you over.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Yeah. Because I'm sure the parents must have known about this situation for my sister. And they must have thought this is the perfect place to send this fellow.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Exile. But I mean, I did I they didn't think it was that bad. They also didn't think that I would challenge the system there. Which I did. Elaborate. Uh I don't know about this. Go on. I got kicked off campus. I got exile from campus here. Is it something you're comfortable telling us about? Yeah, I mean, and it was, I mean, um, so I was considered like naughty. I mean, my hair was unkept. I wasn't the ideal student. So nothing's changed? Nothing's changed.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

But um if you're watching this on the YouTube channel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

So they I mean, we used to host uh land parties.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Land party? Okay, yeah, you play Counter-Strike.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

I mean, for people that don't know, a land party is where you connect all your computers up in a in a in a room and you play these like war games among each other in a room. That's a land, local area network party.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yeah. Okay. So I used to host these land parties. And it was it was something innocent. It was just the guys getting together and like just sitting all in one room and but looking at us to make a lot of noise. In the male-only hostel. In the male-only only. Yeah. But they kind of identified that I was a naughty one. So it was a little bit um uh prejudice there in the hostel because they had South Africans on one side, they had the South Indians on one side, they had the Punjabis on one side, they had the Gujaratis, the uh Tamulians, whatever it was, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:58

So it sounds very diverse, but at the same time very homogenous in India.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

What do you mean diverse? It doesn't sound diverse at all.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

No, I'm saying you you're talking about all these different um sects.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Oh, a lot of people from different parts of the But it's very homogenous in that it's very Indian. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

I mean that's how So is that there were no other were there any other ininverted commas non-Indians at this place? There were the Mauritians.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

But they're also like of Indian descent. So Oh, so are you seen as a South African? Yeah, we've seen we had our own, regardless of whatever you are, you could be Muslim, coloured, white, whatever, you've seen as a South African because believe it or not, like our culture here kind of speaks for itself. It's like we have our own. I think South African dynamics culture is brilliant, yeah. You know, it is. That's that's the thing. Yeah, but there was a big problem with that because it was too liberal in their opinion. I get you, I get you. So they kind of identified me as being a naughty one. So I was exiled from within the hostel itself, from the South African little contingent that we had there, yeah, to the top floor on the right where the Gujaratis live. Okay. And that's where I met my best friend at university, Janesh. Okay. Um he's currently in Australia, he's not even doing dance history anymore. Shout out, Juno.

SPEAKER_03 33:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Um, I don't know what he's doing actually, but anyway, so him and I became like really good friends. Now, why the Gujaratis at that stage is because they never used to drink.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Okay. Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Well, they never used to drink.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Officially, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yeah. So anyway, like after I moved up there, corrupted the whole floor. Janesh, Rupin, only the one guy. We used to call him Dotraj because he used to wear wear thought.

SPEAKER_03 33:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Um we all used to like almost this is gonna sound very robin hoodie of me, but we used to unify everyone by playing Counter-Strike because everyone loved it.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

I thought you were gonna tell me you were stealing from rich kids and giving to you know.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

No, no, there were no rich kids. Yeah. Okay. So you unified everybody. You were like a university. By playing Counter-Strike, yeah. All right. And the and I used to play it on my room because uh Derea and my roommate and I, we used to like we we did some stuff with our room. We made it very homely. Okay. So the one day, Janesh also used to start, he like he developed this reputation. Now he's hanging out with the actors of Africans, he's he's drinking and blah, blah, blah. No, and they tried to single him out. They didn't like him because he was also very, very vocal about his disapproval for how things ran there.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

One night we're playing Counter-Strike. Our the hostel warden, who happened to be our orthodontist as well, okay, rocks up to the hostel, opens the door. He's like, Yes, yuck, what is this? You playing PlayStation? And then Janesh goes, uh, for your information, sir, it's uh it's a computer, it's not PlayStation. Then he's like, Janesh, did anyone ask you? And he went red in his face and he was like super angry. Walked into the room, opened my fridge. Now I just got back from South Africa like two days before. So whenever we got back, duty-free. Contraband. Yeah. You buy like your stuff and whatever it is. I should buy for Uncle Mahan and my local guardians there. So all this stock was non-faced. This is alcohol.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

I use the word contraband, but it's just it's nothing hectic. Nothing hectic. Yeah. So he was like, What is this?

SPEAKER_01 35:14

You guys are drinking, blah, blah, blah. So then confiscates everything, goes down. Next day, they call everyone. And this is gonna sound even more Robin Hoodie, but um, you can verify this with like the UN. This is not an embellished story. Yeah. They called everyone except for me that was in the room.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

And they asked them whose idea was it? Who who organized this party? Why was he making a noise? And everyone actually didn't give me up and say and say my name.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

And then the orthodontist um he came to me and he apologized. And he's like, We're really sorry, we didn't know that this is gonna go this far and whatever. We were trying to get Janesh because he's a big problem maker, we know this, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, nothing's happened thus far. Like, why are they saying all of this? Then I got called, and then she is like, if you don't Shukla, Madam Shukla, which is the principal of the whole college. Okay, everyone was poop scared of this. Okay, okay. And for well, good reason. I mean, she was she see you with your shirt walking off the like all your pants, she'll kick you off college for the day. All right. Umised this thing, all of you are gonna be suspended for one month.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

So took one for the team, the LAN team. I took one for the team, and yeah, then everyone was like really So you got kicked out of campus. Yeah. They kicked me off completely.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

And then but you carried on studying.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Carried on studying, but I failed. Okay. I failed. I don't even remember this. Yeah, too. You know that I was the only one in my own class, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:50

I was gonna get to that. I'm glad you because I think Yak is probably the only person in the history of dentistry ever that was the only person in his class.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

It was like tuition, like dentistry.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Like for the whole year, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:04

For the whole my whole academic, well, apart from the first year and the second year, from there onwards I was the only person. Okay, it makes sense because so you because you failed in the It's because I failed, they didn't take in a new batch. They used to call them batches of students because the university they reached capacity. Yeah. So everyone thought at that stage they're gonna fail him and just make sure that he quits and whatever. Yeah, because it seems like a lot of resources just for one person. So I was my own academic yeah. So you have a one-on-one dental dental school. It was hectic, I promise you. But you know, therein therein lies or lay the answer. The answer to why it is or could be as to what made me successful. I I wouldn't say enjoy dentistry, but but made me successful in in what I had to do because I didn't apply myself so academically that I needed, I I'm not a bookworm. I can't go and like sit and study and make notes and whatever. But at that stage, sitting one-on-one with a lecturer, you can't even look anywhere else, you can't even take your phone out. And they're just sitting there and they're talking to you like they're having a conversation, you have to listen. And that happened for three years ago.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

That's amazing, yeah?

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

I mean, it's it's good on them for not finding an excuse to get rid of you and training you properly.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

And I must say, I mean, it was I think it was my my principal from BDS, uh, the dentistry part of it, um, Madame Shra. She advocated for me quite a bit to actually just try and keep me there. And uh I think I owe a lot to her because um her husband was the head of the surgical department. Yeah. I think he had a soft spot for me because I was actually good at surgery. And uh he and and he took it upon himself to kind of initiate this one-on-one like lecture, like lectures with me. Okay, that's brilliant, man. And he'd always ask me, like, how are you doing? He'd start the lecture off with asking me, How are you doing? And I'd answer him. I'd tell him, That's amazing. I'm not doing well, I got a headache, or I'm like, uh, I just want to go play Counter-Strike.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

The way you know you say the thing about him asking you, How are you doing? You emphasize that as if it really struck a chord with you because It made a difference. It does make a difference because it's weird. I got an email from a really senior person that I work with yesterday. And you know, usually email say dear, whatever, or hi, whatever. This person said to me, they started the email with Yash, comma, how are you? And I was like, Whoa, this but anyway, that's you think it was a genuine question? Because he could have just said, hey Yash or Yash. And he's based in the UK, so they they're very a bit more um reserved and curt in their messages.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

So what did you reply?

SPEAKER_02 39:43

No, then I took like I took it. I am well then I took forever to try and figure out a response where I would sound not like I'm gushing over the guy, because I'm a big fan of him, but also I don't want to sound too you know, I I thought longer about responding to a very simple email.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

But the quit we digress, right? So your graduation ceremony must have been lit then. Did you go? There was one candle, it was candle lit. Must have been quick.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Uh or was there there wasn't. I I didn't have a degree and you come back to Mzansi.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Yeah. Now, how does that work? Now, coming from Maurish Mauritius, Maurice, to South Africa, you have to was it ex the degree was not you had to write an exam, right? Or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Yeah, I had to get the degree evaluated, and at that time there was a council that just came about. It was called Sakwa. Okay. South Family Show. Um, South African Qualifications Association.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

And I had to go through these people who didn't even know what they were doing themselves. So first thing you had to get the degree evaluated. Then the degree came back that was evaluated higher than a South African qualification. I was like, yes. Okay. I can just now go and register. And then they were like, no, HPCSA made you write the board exam.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Okay. And that wasn't a pleasant. Is now?

SPEAKER_01 40:58

This is a board exam to practice in South Africa to get your qualification.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

So even though your qualification is like ranked by this independent authority as being higher than a dental South African dental one, our regulator says you need to pass a board exam in order to satisfy our requirements, regardless.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

So you write you write that and pass, or what happens there?

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah, I wrote that. I mean, it was daunting. Yeah. First shot, I passed it, thankfully. Um, two of my colleagues, Aceh and Abdullah, that uh studied with me.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

We made a very good decision to go down to Cape Town because it was it subcontracted to university. So it was out of UWC.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Um, so we went to the university. It was a handful of us. Out of 60 people, eight passed.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Oh, sure. So well done.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Yeah. And well, that should show us the training then. Exactly. And then out of the eight, but it's not fair, you had one-on-one. There was five of us. Oh, yeah. No.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

You had like the teacher's pet and everything. You shouldn't. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

So you come, you pass the exam, then what's next? Passed the exam. I I needed to choose uh comserv. Well, and then you I don't know how your guys work. It was like a Well, let's pause there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Because there might be people that are non-clinicians watching this. I know they are, people that are interested.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

When you qualify as a doctor or a dentist or any healthcare practitioner in South Africa, if you're a medical doctor, you've got to do two years of internship first, and then you've got to do community service. Dentists just go straight from university to community service, which is one year in a public health facility. You get paid for it. It's called ComServe because you have no choice. Um and you get paid quite well. I mean, from earning nothing to earning quite a bit. Um so you did that. You had to apply for community service after the board exam.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Yeah. And then they gave me a few options. Um, but apparently it's called third round or oh yeah, I've been I was third round it.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

So you gotta when they say third round, it means you've got to pick a very few facilities because all the other students in the country have already picked it and so if I can ask you with that regard, how how does that work? Is it is it like chronological, whoever rocks up first to choose, or apparently now I don't know how it works now, but apparently there was method to the madness where if you could show that you've got family in an area or if you're married and you've got kids in a particular area that So you motivate for it. Yeah, you can motivate. And and I know nowadays I've seen a lot of people online, they like shop around. They trade their posts. I've got a post in Western Cape who wants it, and yeah. So you got you only had the pickings of third round, and yeah, you had probably like three or four to pick from.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Yeah, and there was nobody not one name that I even recognized there. And even when I Googled some names, it didn't even exist. But then I asked you, and then you told me that there's the place falseress. Because I was working in Standerton. You were in Stanerton and Pumalang. Then you told me there's a place falseress that's like it's not too far from Stanerton. I was like, yeah, okay, let me go out and try. And how was Fox? Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Yeah? Yeah, it was So that was like oh I I liked industry or no, that was well I liked surgery.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Okay. Because when I was in Falster's, I did my One year community service and then um they retained me.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Yeah, they kept you on permanently.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

They kept me on permanently because I used to do a lot of wisdom teeth. I mean, uh that was I I did I didn't know I liked it. I was good at it, I didn't know that I liked it. But then they offered me a post in um the tertiary hospital, Rob Ferreira Hospital in Nelsprit, which is about a five-hour drive from Falstrus. Yeah. And it was a ridge, not a ridge, what do you call it? Like a supernumerary type of uh like an MO post, like a medical officer post because they they just started this department. Yes. So I went there and I trained under Barry Heldenes, who's who's really good. And uh he was a medical doctor and then went to study uh maxillofacial surgery.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

But you were so you're based in Foxes, but you would go there. I used to go there for like one week every month.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

I'm remembering this now, yeah. My memory is terrible, you know.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

So I'm just I'm genuinely being informed by these answers. I'm speaking about like uh myself, yeah, like kind of a list of things in my head. Um but yeah, so I went there and then yeah, Barry was phenomenal. We used to like take quite a lot of patients for um you know, order of spiopsies, um, wisdoms.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Implants, not so much, but uh we did it was my first exposure to implants, no pun intended for the implantologist to start there.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Okay, I got you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Um Yeah, and then the state. You're working in state. I was working in state. Right. And so then what made you leave? So there were there were two things. The first thing was the first the second thing I got I can't speak about. Okay. The first thing You don't want to speak about, you mean uh I don't think I should speak about it. Okay. Um the the first thing that happened was that they the HR department called me and they said that look, this is you saving the department because we used to send all our wisdom teeth surgeries. If we saw any wisdom teeth, we had nobody there to actually um uh uh uh uh take to theater.

SPEAKER_03 46:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

There was no supervision.

SPEAKER_03 46:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

So we used to send the patient to Steve Biko Hospital. I think everyone does that in in that area, or used to do that. Yeah. It cost the states something close on to 22 grand per patient because just to transfer the patient accommodation, uh obviously at the hospital, meals and whatever. Get you, get you, yeah, and then and then take them back. Um so I approached them and I said, I'd like to do these cases. I've been training on the thing. So they actually got um Miss Dr. Strauss. You remember Dr. Strauss?

SPEAKER_02 46:41

I can't remember. I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

I don't think you ever met him, but this is Roline Strauss's dad.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

Oh, okay. Roline Strauss is the Miss South Africa, Miss World.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Miss Universe.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Okay. So they're from Folks.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

He went galactic, intergalactic.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I always made a joke in Falstress. It's like they took all the beauty of the whole town, they concentrated on one person.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

Yes. I hope you weren't joking about yourself. So I'm not talking about.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

I'm talking about the professor of Falstress.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

Look, beautiful, beautiful town. Even people, good-looking people. Um so go on about this now. So Rowin's dad, he was working in in private. He had his private practice within dentist. No, no. GP. Okay. But he had his DA, which is the diploma in anaesthetics, so he was allowed to dope.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Oh, okay. So he was he was doing anesthesia.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Yeah. So him and I kind of structured something where he'd come and dope for me on a Friday, and we'd see like four or five wisdom teeth. So, anyways. In at in theatre at uh at the hospital. Rob at no, no, in in Falseville. Oh, okay, okay. So we didn't have to transfer all of these patients out to Steve Beacon.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

Okay, okay. So you're staying saving the state lots of money. Save the state. Saving taxpayers' money. What's that guy that complained about anyway? Move on. So you made an arrangement with Dr. Ferrari Strauss. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Yeah. And uh yeah, we started seeing all of these uh all of these patients. And then, you know, uh what made me leave was it's an unfortunate like circumstance because you know what a supernumerary post is.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

A supernumerary post, as far as I understand, is a it's a post to be to to specialize in something, but you don't get paid.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Yeah, you don't get paid, and it it's it's paid for by a third party, like the state, for example. So the state will pay the university for you to come there and like study.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Oh, okay. And then take a couple of things. But you're not earning anything.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Oh, you do. No, you do earn, but they will pay your cellular, kind of through the state. Okay. Um so I mean there was this post that was going on for a long time, and we applied for it and and whatnot. And uh I it was very unfortunate that I didn't get it. And a person that wasn't in the program even, that kind of didn't show any initiative because inevitably when she got the post, um, she negotiated for a boyfriend to be relocated there as well. And it was just disappointing to me that I tried that hard, and it was I was finding my groove into something that I actually did like because then I started realizing that I like one aspect of the industry being the surgery, and then I didn't get it. So there was a person, um, family friend of ours that owns uh practices here in Joburg. Um and but from the time I came back, in fact, he actually helped me train and stuff, um, you know, with my with the practical training.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

So you felt you felt hard done by and you said, you know what, I'm gonna go and do this on my own somewhere. In to summarize.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Yeah, well, not I'm gonna do it on my own, but this there was always this offer in the private sector for me to come and join this other practice. Okay. And at that stage, and I thought, yeah, okay, I'm gonna do it. I'm not getting anywhere with state, so might as well.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

So you joined the practice. And then we uh we are sitting at your practice now in Bedford View, it's called Bedford View Banana Care. Bedford View Dental Care, Willow Street, massive place. I mean, maybe after we record this show, you can take me on a tour and I can do like a bonus video for the YouTube subscribers. But how did you end up here?

SPEAKER_01 50:12

At this practice.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Yeah, how did you end up owning your own practice and doing things? Because you worked for someone, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:17

Yeah, yeah. Um so the practices I used to work at was in between Springs and Santon.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

Okay. And uh as an employee type of thing. Yeah. An associate, sorry. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

And at that stage, um, I mean, I I Googled where's the clearest, I mean no closest place to stay uh uh in in Jobug.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

Between both, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Between the two, and then came up as Bid for View, and then I went, came, and saw an apartment, and uh like the apartment, and so I had to buy it to put financial decisions. Um because you don't go and commit to something without knowing, you know, like fully well if you have a like stable job. You gotta have some foresight into where your finances are coming from. But uh it was far for me. Eventually it started getting a bit far for me to travel because it was hectic. I used to travel from um Bedford View to Springs, and then Saturdays also from Springs to Santon uh in the evenings, and it was just getting too much for travel. So I opened up or I decided, let me open up something small. And it wasn't this place. I mean, the my previous practice was kind of basically half the size of this room. Yeah. And it was uh through the lady that sold me the apartment. She worked for an agent, a real estate agent that uh sold this building to these people. It's called Therapy Works. Yeah. It was a special care need center. And I went there and it was only ladies. There were about five, six apartments and about 28 ladies. So I was the first male to step into this practice as well. And um at the beginning, I wasn't met. I wasn't like Your impression.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

You're saying, I mean, let's make it clear. This is your in your mind, you weren't met with because we don't want to What? I mean, you weren't met with what?

SPEAKER_01 52:05

I wasn't warmly welcomed.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Okay, in your opinion, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

No, uh no, no, in in in their opinion as well, because we subsequently became friends and then they were very open with me. Okay, okay, okay. Because they were one, I was a male, two, um dentist. So their assumption of uh of the dentist is gonna be very noisy, people crying, um the compression, you know, the sound of the compressor and whatever it is. Okay, okay. The irony. Guess it's irony now.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Think so. Um I don't know. Let's hear. I was a quietist tenant in the whole building.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Yeah, I think that's irony. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

Yeah. Okay. So anyway, that practice grew and grew and grew, and we kind of outgrew ourselves. And we needed more space. Yeah. We needed more space, and um one of our patients is a quite a reputable estate agent in this area, and she introduced me to this place. This is a beautiful place. I mean, it's huge. And I came here and uh and well, when I walked in here, I I didn't see it. It was like very office vibes, very um, yeah. But the one thing that I do like, and this is this is the second part of my uh philosophy, yeah, is uh interior design or like designing things.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

Yeah um so I kinda I mean there's a room in this practice for people that are not watching the show. There's a room right at the back where Yak and I are sitting now, and there's like a wall with these leaves, and there's a banana light, and it looks like it's been set up for a professional podcast. So just to give you a flavor of what this place is like, there's a fountain outside that looks beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

There's there's these I think you can just do a put a walkthrough.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

There's these fancy glass, no, but the listeners are not gonna there's these fancy glass things that can change too much listening from transparent to opaque. It's a really, really cool place. So now you got here. My question, and and y earlier on you said you you were a bit reluctant to sound like you but are you successful? I mean, do you think you're successful? And I know you're not practicing anymore, dentistry. Um I don't even know if we'll get to that story uh with the time we've got. But are you successful? What does success mean?

SPEAKER_01 54:13

No, wait, what is your definition of success? What do you no?

SPEAKER_02 54:16

You see, you you you I asked the question, and that is my question. What is what does success mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Honestly, it's to do what I love to do whenever I want to do it with the people that I love to do it with.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

Okay. Okay, for s for those of you that were are watching this on YouTube and you might notice that the camera looks slightly different. Sorry to the listeners, but I've got to explain this. And our hair just to give you a sense of how hairbreak. No, of how um this is a one-man operation. My camera overheated just after Yak gave us that super brilliant definition of success. So if the if the if everything looks off, and I'm not gonna I'm trying to edit this as less as possible, so I'm just want to explain to you why it looks different. But that's what happened. My camera overheated. Welcome back. We're back. So Yak, now that you've given me that definition of success, which I think is a great definition, you gotta answer my question. Are you successful?

SPEAKER_01 55:20

Can I give you my further definition of success first?

SPEAKER_02 55:25

Or you could just answer the question.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

Is it a yes or no question? I mean, what do you think? If I think it's a yes or no question.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

No, I mean maybe maybe there's things that you're aspiring towards. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Yeah, I guess uh success is uh is a is an ongoing definition. It's it's it's whatever it is that you make of it at a particular moment in time. And I'll tell you why I want to like further define it, is because it's all good and well, like saying, you know, you want to do things you love and it and and when you want to do it and having the time and ikikai principles. But I've got I I think you would have seen in my Instagram post, especially when I post things not related to any form of profession or academia.

SPEAKER_02 56:11

You never do, basically.

SPEAKER_01 56:13

Yeah. But it's I always use this phrase and it's it's my phrase. Like I've I've I've coined it, coined it. Um but it's go something like this. You gotta have a nine to five in order to earn an income, and you gotta have an income in order to fund your hobbies.

SPEAKER_02 56:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

And you're not gonna like all of those hobbies, you might hate some of them, but you gotta have a varied amount of hobbies in order to know where your passion lies.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

And eventually your passion will replace your nine to five.

SPEAKER_02 56:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

So I think by definition of that, and what my understanding of success is I think I am on the road to success. Not there yet. Um, I don't think there will be a yet. I don't think there will be a then. Um, but it's an ongoing adaptation and um so more of a journey than a destination. Yeah. You don't get to a place called success. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Yeah and you're on that journey. Yeah, I'm definitely so. And why I say that is I there's a lot of other stuff that I I do. There's a lot of stuff that I've kind of found my passion in. DJing, for example, and my don't drone photography, um, all of that sort of stuff. And I I mean I previous previously I wouldn't have been able to afford that sort of lifestyle. Um had it not been It's paying for your hobbies.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

Yeah. The nine to five is paying for your hobbies.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:46

We'll talk about a couple of things you mentioned a bit later because they're on my list that I want to ask you. But do dentists make good money? Before you answer, the reason I'm asking this question, it's a bit of a I don't know, intrus you know, intrusive question. But remember one of the reasons for this podcast is that people that might be considering a career in dentistry or healthcare in general may be watching this and you might shape somebody's decision. Um so I want you to be quite open and and don't think of it as directed only at you because in my mind I think you're making good money, but do dentists make good money?

SPEAKER_01 58:33

I would think so. I would think uh successful dentist makes good money. Okay. And what makes a successful dentist? I'm probably it's probably gonna be your next question. No, no.

SPEAKER_02 58:43

So so what you're telling me is it's not necessarily just if you get if you become a dentist baseline, you're gonna be making good money.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

No, not at all. There's I'm glad I'm glad you're saying this. Yeah. Yeah, there's I mean, but isn't that uh pertinent to any form of profession?

SPEAKER_02 58:57

No, you see, this is the thing that I feel a lot of us aren't told before we get into it. Because I think the perception out there is that well, let me explain to you why what shaped my uh opinion of people's perceptions. Like I got into dentistry.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Why did you get into dentistry?

SPEAKER_02 59:18

I mean I applied for medicine. It's a short it there's a long story and a short story. The long story is I applied for medicine and dentistry and I got into dentistry.

SPEAKER_01 59:25

Were you sad about it? Sorry? Were you sad about not getting into medicine? No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 59:29

It's because I I wasn't neither here nor there on either.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

Well let's take one step back. What do you apply for medicine and dentistry and just those two?

SPEAKER_02 59:36

This is what I'm this is what I'm getting at. Because there's a perception out there that it's a stable job, good income, you can run your own business, you can take it overseas. That's the perception. And take it overseas. Yeah, if you need to, it it's not a it's you're not limited to doing it only in this country, right? Um so there's this perception that you'll be okay. If you get into that, you'll be fine. But I think I learned, and I I'm hoping you'll uh elaborate on it, is that it doesn't mean that because you become a dentist, you're gonna be okay. Because from my understanding, once you finish off in ComServe, a lot of people don't have a choice but to go into private practice. It's like there's not many opportunities in government to have a stable job. But go back so do dentists make good money?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

I would think successful dentists make good money. I wouldn't say that it's uh uh you know blanket theory that because you get into any profession, yeah. I don't know, let's think about any random drug dealer, for example.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Well that's not a profession, but I mean I get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:39

But I was talking about a pharmacist. If I Okay. Well, there's there's a part of you that you didn't mention yet, because you mentioned DJing, but you didn't mention stand-up comedy. But we're gonna get to that. Yeah. I want to ask you, you know, I know it's it's the nine to five that makes you money to pay for your hobbies. No, you should do, yeah. But are there oh yeah, because you but are there things that you loved about dentistry and what did you love about dentistry?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Well, what I loved about dentistry was definitely the surgical aspect.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Um I don't know why I I like well Elaborate for people that don't know about surgical. Okay, so yeah, there's there's wisdom teeth removal more specifically that I really enjoyed doing that. Um like impacted wisdoms and complex, complex removals of teeth. And I don't know, I it it might have been that I was really good at it. There was one aspect that I saw that was a defining sort of um expertise as to whether or not you're good at something or not. Because even like a filling, for example, right? It all depends on so many variables, what material you use, what uh instrument you use, what's the setting time, what this there's so many variables.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:52

And also what the patient's experience is ultimately Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

Because you could do the best filling and the best extraction technically by the textbook, everything. If the patient didn't enjoy it or came out there saying I hated it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

Precisely. And then that actually brings me to the second aspect of what makes a successful dentist. I mean, I tell all of my colleagues and my dentist friends, which uh they don't uh like me for. Yeah. Um I'm not gonna use the actual life phrase. Okay, yeah. Just that particular aspect. But I I I think anyone can learn to do something repetitively. Or if you do it enough, you're gonna get good at it to be or have a baseline sort of um uh ability to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

But there's an aspect of dentistry that I've actually discovered, and I I don't even think it's particular to dentistry, but it's those human skills. It's the ability to connect with someone, it's the ability to be, to have that empathy, to know what someone's going through, to understand that what they what they're even reporting back to is nothing like clinically, nothing to do with what you're even talking about. Yes. They might be going through some hectic amount of uh trauma at home, psychological trauma, and and you know, all the all the other aspects of um of the clinical evaluation that that you know you're doing at the time that's almost irrelevant. Yeah. And it's to irrelevant to you as a clinician, maybe. Yeah. And it's to siphon and filter all of that stuff out in order to understand what is actually being spoken about, yeah. And is this why you realize that psychology is quite a big thing in your life? Yeah. And I found that out only after me being given the opportunity to interact with people. And dentistry sort of facilitated that. Because I'm not going to stand on the corner of the road and go speak to people, they're gonna run away.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

You stumbled into something that you know puts you in touch with people.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

You know, intimately in touch with them because you're in their face.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Exactly. Um, and I especially when I started practice there at Therapy Works, it was phenomenal because I had the even these older patients that were at the old age homes and stuff, and their their children have moved overseas. They came to the practice, they had some treatment, whatever. Some of them used to actually make appointments with like, but they felt bad to just make a consult appointment. So they'd come in and they'd make like false symptoms, and we'd end up talking for like 30, 45 minutes, and then they'd be like, oh, so they wanted to have a chat. They wanted, they wanted that interaction with me.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:26

You mentioned that it it started at Therapy Works, right? I'm wondering, you know, the natural question in my mind is why did it start there when you got into private practice and not when you were in the state? And this is my assumption, but you can correct me. When we're in state, we didn't really have conversations with our patients because there was a language barrier, right? Am I right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

So we we couldn't connect with them on that level. You'd you'd learn some dental zulu and say, you know, saw buona was o kipizinho. Yeah. Basically means you want to pull out a tooth.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

Yeah. But you couldn't connect. Exactly. And this is why. And you were not afforded the opportunity and the time to actually connect with the patient. Because you're seeing volume.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:04

Well, you well, look, you might have had the time, because you could have taken forever on a patient in the state and you would have earned the same amount of money, right? So you I mean, and I used to work with people that would take a bit of extra time and that could speak to a patient.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

No, no, I don't mean time as in a monetary value thing, but just the volume of patients that needed to be seen on that particular day.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:23

Yeah, but if they didn't get seen, they would go home and come back again next week, right? But the point I'm trying to make is we you couldn't connect with them as much as you'd want to because of a language barrier.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:32

And this is what you know, I'm going to give some insight into my thinking here, but it's why I believe that all clinicians in South Africa need to be proficient in some indigenous or local language apart from it's a pity that we never learnt it growing up. I'm doing Duolingo now, learning Zulu. But you know, there's a thing about Duolingo, is like you'll be a master in Duolingo, but you can't have a conversation really.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

Yeah. So it's not conversational Zulu that you're learning. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Going back to the thing is you started connecting with your patients when you started private practice because you could develop relationships with them and rapport with them.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

Yeah. And from that, the amount of referrals that I got for the practice to actually grow and build almost had nothing to do with my clinical skills. The people that used to refer, I mean, I I do a like a cleaning or I just have a consult with them, but they'd go and rave about me on social media and you know give me a Google reviews and all of that. And I I just think to myself, but hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

And you made me think of something, right? When family members or people that are not clinicians go to a dentist and they give me feedback. So I'll give you a perfect example. Like my dad said to me, or I can't remember who it was. It was a family member. He went to a family member. No, no, they went to a dentist. And they said, No, that dentist is brilliant. So I said, How do you know that the dentist is brilliant? Like what about them do you know? And what about the work that they did? Yeah. Do you know to evaluate that they're a good dentist versus a bad dent?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:06

The dentistry as opposed to a clinician.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

And I love asking patients those questions because then they're stumped. They can't really answer. They can't put their finger on it. But it's all about the bedside manner and the experience and how that clinician made them feel as a person.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:22

As opposed to, you know, whether you cut your class too perfectly and you did bevels and all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:27

No, it's for 20. Yeah. Patients don't know what the bevel is. They don't know what the margin and the seal and everything. But then also at the same time, there's got to be a balance between the two because you can't have someone with an excellent bedside manner making jokes. Oh, they just love you when they walk in. But then the filling is falling out every couple of months because there's only so much that a person will I mean one would expect a baseline level of clinical competence. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:53

Which is how you pass a bit at the university.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:55

But that's exactly what I'm getting at. One can be taught. The other one cannot be taught, but it need there needs to be an unlearning and like relearning.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:06

Why don't you think it can be taught? Because I think it can be. I think it should be, it's just not taught. Bedside manner and not even bedside manner. In order to have good bedside manner, you have to first have the insight that it's necessary. And I feel like there's lots of people that get into medicine their industry, straight A students. Their whole life, they've known that if I do really well academically, I'm gonna do really well in university.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:31

That's the inference.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:32

Yeah. And it never gets taught to us. Maybe now it does, I'm pretty sure it does, but that the the importance of connecting with the patient is not stressed, was not stressed in my time. We were more interested in getting quota, making sure we had enough extractions, tensures, et cetera, et cetera. No, not focusing on the patient experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

So it's not about, for me, it's not about unlearning. It's actually, it needs to be emphasized more. And I think you can teach it. Because you, I mean, surely you mentor people that join your practice and you explain these things and you show them. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:03

Well, it's it's not like I mentor I I have uh had and have people around me that just watch what I do and how I interact with patients. But when it comes to and I say unlearning and relearning, I'm not even talking about a patient. I'm talking about an emotional quotient more than anything else. How I talk to you, for example, how we talk to our parents, how we talk to our family and friends. You know, there's an there's almost like an understanding that you, as long as you can actually get your message across to somebody else, that is the conversation that needs to be had. But how well is the other person perceiving what you sing?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

So the end goal is not just for that person to understand what you are saying to them, but for them to understand what, and vice versa, whichever way it is. And it's that sort of congruence of what your needs are as opposed to what I am able to offer you that needs to overflow.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:02

I get you. And and it and it takes getting to know what the patient really wants, actually.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

And we we may we keep saying patient, but I'm not even talking about pain. I'm just talking about life in general. Okay. Like how to have that amount of communication skills in order to follow through or to translate what my interests are for you and or not.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:22

It's it's fascinating, yeah. So what do you hate about what did you hate about dentistry?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

To be honest, admin. But I hate that about life in general. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

Um and yeah, so tell us what what is admin? I never I was never in private, so give me like mundane things that I don't even think about.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:39

When you take money from someone, whether it is they is that they're paying for it themselves or there's a third party, there's obviously there has to be a recording of it, that transaction that's involved, and there's paperwork. So honestly, I don't even like taking money from patients. I feel awkward about it. Sometimes I even pretend like I don't know how if the receptionist is not there, I don't know how I pretend I don't know how to use a card machine and I'll be like, oh, WhatsApp you later, blah, blah, blah. And so you're not comfortable having the money conversation or I'm not comfortable with having the money conversation. I'm not comfortable with the admin subsequent to their being a transaction, a financial transaction, because it is laborious. There's a lot of things you got to know that they don't teach you in dental school. Like coding. I mean, there's a lot of codes that you need to know in order. Thankfully, there's systems out there now where you don't necessarily need to know the codes and you can just plug in some information. Um, but there's a lot. There's a lot to know about it. And more so over and above that, and this is a big aspect, and it's not just to do with dentistry, but in our academia, regardless of what it is, medicine, dentistry, anything else, we're not taught about financial matters and implications, tax, most especially, and tax efficiency.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

And VAT. I don't even know till this day what VAT means. Okay. I can't understand it. Like it doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. But you gotta this is an hour where you have to employ somebody else in order to tell you what these things are. And that for me is like it's a pitfall because I like to know what it is that I'm doing and what I and I and I shy away from. I'm good at a lot of things, but the things that I'm not good at, I shy away from. Okay. And then it creates this. Do you delegate?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:28

I mean, how do you get over that? Or you you force yourself to learn.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:32

I used to, but um there's also a very big aspect of all of that, which is you know, like a time constraint and a time um uh uh manipulation of time. Uh there's and and and it's sub-delegation, and it's knowing what is okay. Fine, it's your dereliction to know that you should know about it. How much you should know about it, that's what you have to decide.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:59

Okay, I get you.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

So there's where your accountants come in, that's where your billing system comes in, there's where your But clearly you've gotten it right.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:06

I mean, you know, all of this doesn't happen just by we I mean look, it it it's taken a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:12

Yeah. There's a lot there has been a lot of challenges. We whistle sort of finding out like uh, you know, aspects of your especially uh after my injury and all of that, like how to actually apply these systems. So yeah, there's a lot we need to know.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:28

Is dentistry getting easier? I'll I'll tell you why I ask. So I deal with doctors and dentists on my day-to-day job, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:39

What is your day-to-day job for people that don't know?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:42

Well, uh I work at dental and medical protection and I help doctors and dentists when they're in trouble, when they have complaints, when they have they need medical legal and dental legal advice, right? So I'm always seeing doctors and dentists when they're in need, and other clinicians when they're in need. And the reason why I'm asking if dentistry is getting easier is because I'm seeing lots of queries from dentists about things that I wasn't exposed to. And I, you know, for example, digital smile design is the thing that comes to mind. And when I look into this, I'm thinking, oh, this looks really user-friendly, as you know, from a clinician's point of view. Like you just get this thing, you scan it, the computer and the algorithms figure it out and all that stuff. So that's some context behind why I'm asking. Is dentistry getting easier? Like the practice of clinical dentistry.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:30

Yeah, the short and long answer is no. Okay. Um, sorry, I meant yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:38

Okay, yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, look, what you're talking about now is is not that's a that's a more of advanced dentistry. But if you apply those same principles to basic dentistry, because there's a different there's a difference between the two. If let's just say, for example, there's a there's a cavity and it needs to be filled, and you need to go figure out the margins and you need to figure out an undercut and you need to make sure the occlusion is right and all of those certain things. I mean, if you apply those same principles to DSD, but you've got a digital scanner, you prep that cavity, you scan the whole tooth, and you let a computer system design that for you and then print it, and all you're doing is you're cementing it in, then yes, it's getting very easy, one, and it's also making it user-friendly in the sense that a lot more people or more dentists, even from their own sphere of practice, being the public sector, whatever, can step into something, learn a system almost overnight and then put it into practice.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:38

Which opens up some risk, right? I mean, because who's to blame if something goes wrong? No, it sounds like it sounds like anybody off the street can just sometimes with these types of things.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:48

Exactly. And this is like the unpopular phrase that I use to for that. Okay. Um that but it goes along the lines of uh like people a lot of people can do dentistry um with something that is a teachable skill, it's a learnable skill. As with all skills, obviously, but with dentistry at the moment, with the digitization of it and AI and all of that, it's probably an industry that's benefiting quite a lot and yeah, from technology.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:23

One of my colleagues, when I was at Norton Rose, um that's a law firm, wrote an article before AI was a big buzzword. This was before COVID and everything, right? And he said and and he concluded the article, I'll never forget it, by saying that there's the two professions or careers that are the safest from AI, from being taken over by AI. Did I tell you the story before? But the two two careers are being a preacher or pastor or being a dentist.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:54

Because where did he get that information from? He asked AI.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:59

There's no chat GPT at that time. But let's move on now from dentistry.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:02

You were a DJ? Or you are a DJ? What's this now? What's your DJ name?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:07

Drake. Drake. As in D-R-Y-A-K. So it's pronounced, but it's Dr. Yak.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:13

Dr. Yak, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:14

But it's Draak. Drake. Drake. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:16

How did this happen now? Is this Elton? Wait, you mentioned Elton and Claudia earlier, and I didn't get a chance to take credit for it, right? Elton is is one of your in my as far as my perception is it's probably like your closest friend, right? Yeah. Elton Lowe.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:32

Elton Lowe, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:33

And shout out LTs. He's a he's a top entrepreneur, am I right? And he's you know behind the many things, but one of these things are active aligners, which is for the non-dentists out there, it's those clear plastic aligners that straighten people's teeth. I'm trying to dumb it down. And no, it's pretty smart. Okay, thank you. And and I always say to Yak that I'm I always take credit for Yak meeting up with Elton. He wants commission for I introduced them because Elton was actually a client before he even met. Yeah, allowed to disclose that for commission. Yeah, he's comfortable with it. So um um I just want to take credit for introducing it to your bestie. Um, and I'm sorry that he's that things are changing. Um, but anyway. So where were we? I can't even remember. I was asking about the DJ thing. So did it come from Elton? Or Drake. Yeah, because you know, I've seen you DJ at some of his events.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:30

Yeah, no, not necessarily. Look, we built a a nightclub in Elton's basement. That was like a hobby. Yeah. Um, it's pretty cool. Yeah. I'd nice to have like an insert right now of like what the club looks like.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

Yeah, maybe we can put some B-roll in there for the viewers.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:45

But um How did you get into it? Genuinely in a house.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:48

I I mean I I genuinely like music. Right. That's something that I discovered.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:55

Especially when I was an Everest and you're alone and you don't have nothing else.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:59

And you there's music sounds different. And you and Dinah always like flook me about my diverse taste in uh in music when you jump into the car. But I always thought to myself, like DJing is like an it's an art. Actually, not DJing. I wouldn't call it this because the DJ takes his one, he takes one song and he mixes it with another song and he makes a new song. Sound engineering is actually a little bit further where you you creating a song from scratch, you're putting beats together and all of that stuff. So technically speaking, that's what I wanted to do. You wanted to be a sound engineer. Yeah, sound engineer. Okay. And then um one of our other friends, he owns uh Katie's Palace.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:42

For any Joe Bug people that would know it.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:44

So the one day he was like, Yeah, yak, you wanna come come and try it out. So I went there and then It's just like that. Yeah. And then I D changed. It's cool. It was hot. I don't know. My ears burning, and I just got back to the temperature was the first time. Uh sunburnt, and it was it was hectic, but I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:01

So you still do it now, like you've got the equipment and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:04

So there's uh for the viewers, I don't know if we are gonna do B-roll. This is kind of the rec room of the practice. So I've got the 3D printer behind there, and then my computer and this little sound booth that I'm glad the nine to five is paying for all these hobbies because it's not it's not cheap these things, surely. No, I mean once you have your initial investment and you don't have to go more than that.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:25

It's it's and do you have like a Spotify or Apple Music thing? Not yet. Not yet. There's a lot of things I don't have that I should. Stand-up comedy? One of the most bizarre experiences I've had in the last couple of years was when Yak said to me, sent me a message and said, Do you want to go to this comedy show? What was that? You said that. And I said, and I just decided to say yes. I didn't even ask questions. Because sometimes it's better you have more fun when you don't know what's happening. And it was the most bizarre experience because Yak took me to this venue. It's the first time I've ever been to a comedy show where there was no alcohol being served. Yeah, some mousas. Some mousas being served. Some moussas had tea. The whole place, there was a bit of uh it smelt of weed and everything, and there it was just a bizarre experience. And I I remember sitting next to Yak in the audience and just looking at him and and laughing, and he said, What's what's going on? And I said, No, I'm just finding this such a bizarre experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:20

But now, yeah, the stand-up comedy scene, what did you actually perform?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:24

And so no, no, so not there. I mean, um, I first met Eric Jansen, who's uh a comedian at um at Comedy Central, and the whole undertone of everything that I'm speaking about is all you know, those personal interactions that I have with people, and I like people. That's a common thread. Yes, is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:45

So Eric Jansen was speaking at Macro one day.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:49

He was announcing stuff somewhere in the south of Jopa. Who's that who's Eric Jansen? Eric Jansen is a comedian on um Comedy Central. Okay. So he was there and then I saw this guy. So he's no one was around him. So I walked up to him, was like, hey, how's it going? Whatever. And then we started talking. Yeah. And then eventually he ended up coming to the practice. He was a patient. Um, and then he introduced me to all of these other people. Yeah. Um, one specifically being Doc.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:17

Doc uh Doc Comedy, that's what that's his handle. That's what he goes as. And I really enjoyed his comedy because it was um observational humor. Okay. Something like like Seinfeld, you know, like what Seinfeld used to do. And we used to have these conversations, and we'd both be making jokes, but we wouldn't be laughing.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:40

We'd just observe what each other, what we'd be saying, what we were saying. And then one day it wasn't even Doc, it was someone else. I can't remember who the comedian was, but I was in those circles now. And it was kind of an underground thing that they had was during COVID. It wasn't that underground, it was you know, plucked somewhere in deep south of Joe Burg. And we went there and they asked me to come in and do something.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:02

And then I did. And well, people found me funny then at that time. Well, thanks for the invite. You're welcome. Um, but yeah, I mean, that is uh that's not a hobby I actually enjoy because it's um I wouldn't say I don't enjoy it, but it it does take a lot out of you. I the a lot of the comedians I see, like, and being authentic self is also like a big aspect of, in my opinion, what is what's needed to be translated through your profession and through you know your private life. And I and with the comedians especially, it's like they do try very hard to be to be funny.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:40

But most of them, when you're having a conversation with them, it's almost like they're so drained from being funny all the time that it's it's hard to maintain a conversation by not just trying to be funny all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:51

That's very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:53

Do you have any mentors?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:55

Yeah. Yes. I mean, can you be comfortable naming them or telling you? Yeah, one would be Elton Love. He's uh he's he's he's a friend and he's a mentor, and um how so? I I guess more so about all the aspects that I've been speaking about, you know, living like your authentic self, and and that's what Elton does. I mean, he enjoys to do what he actually loves to do. Yeah, he does not consider whether anybody judges him or what he's uh you know otherwise would be construed as an alternate lifestyle or whatever. I'm not saying he's gay, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:33

No, I mean alternative. That's a joke. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:35

Um but uh yeah, I mean, and he he's he's also a very empathetic person. And I think um when it comes, especially when it comes to empathy, like a lot of people go through stuff, and when someone goes through things that are particularly about them, they kind of shut off the rest of the world. And it alienates themselves, but it also alienates people around that. And that's the sec that second aspect is not what people actually understand that you push people away when you you know you you're being subjected to stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:15

So Elton's what he's been a mentor, he's told he's opened up a different side of a different perspective to life?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:23

Or yeah, yeah. And and and especially with like you're not compartmentalizing things, but understanding that life is is fluid. Life is not black or white, life is different shades of gray.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:35

Okay. That's great. Um I hope he's watching. I mean, he will watch this, and then yeah, yeah. It's glad that I mean have you have you ever told him that you he's your mentor?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:42

Yeah, no, of course. Okay, yeah, all the time. I reiterate that. And um yeah. Do you have others? Different shades.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:48

Any others that you can think of? Personally, I feel like I see lots I've got lots of mentors, and they probably don't even know it, but I try and take bits and pieces of every different person. Exactly. And try and shape myself into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:02

Yeah, I mean, there's there's um for the definition of what mentorship is, yeah. I mean, we could go on and on and on if I if I sit there. But if I to make mention of specifically like yourself and and Yuri, Yuri S and our cousin, yeah, like the relationship that we guys have in this is a private conversation, but it's public. I hope nobody's listening, yeah. Um but we we call ourselves the doers. D-O-E-R-S. I'm spelling that right. Is it apostrophe anyway?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:31

No, no, that's that's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:32

Yeah, but we we always we have this group and we're always like inspiring ourselves. We share memes a lot. I mean, that's part and parcel of uh uh how we communicate. But we also inspire ourselves to do a lot more, and especially when people or either one of us are going through something particularly difficult, we're there for each other. And it's something that I do appreciate, and like the especially from a mentorship perspective, I mean, um is in, I think we both would agree that he's successful in his own light. Um, but he's the most down-to-earth person, and he's he, you know, he loves his uh his dogs, he loves his wife, he they go on holiday, they do things that are like very, you know, adventurous. Yeah. Like we did auto trail together. Yeah, and that was like an amazing. We had a fight the one day when we were crossing the river because I was droning. Yeah, well, let's not air out dirty laundry. Yeah, we don't know. I'll be watching the laundry in the river while I was trying to drone it. Um, but but even you as people sh people shape you.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:38

Thanks a lot, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:38

Yeah, I mean Yeah, but uh let me tell the audience why. Um how much time do you have? Sounds like you're rushing. We've got time, yeah. But I mean, you know, I was I was speaking earlier about the Ikigai principles, and it's like doing what you love. I'm trying to remember it now. Doing what you love, doing what you're good at, doing what you can be paid for, and doing what the world needs. And you started dentistry and you went into it. Whatever, and you studied all of those years, you got into it, and then when it came to your first year and when you were in Comsad, you realized it wasn't for you, and then you decided to do something that you actually would enjoy. But I'm sure making that call at that stage must have been difficult. And a lot of people, including myself, I mean, change was forced upon me and I had to adapt. But a lot of people would unfortunately not want to make those changes in fear of failure or in fear of being judged. And that's the unfortunate part about you know where we are as society and especially in like our culture. But I think you did a good job by by changing and me, because I really don't see you, no, no offense, or all offense as possible. I don't see you as a good dentist. I don't think you'd make a good dentist. You'd get very irritated.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:50

I'm not going to comment whether I'm offended or con or I feel that it's a compliment. I'll leave that.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:54

Yes, but yeah, mentor.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:56

Well, thanks a lot, yeah. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Does anything make you nervous? Like can you remember when last you were nervous about anything? Because you seem like a a confident person, and and as you've as the theme of this interview so far, you like speaking to people, approaching people, putting yourself in unusual and diff different situations. You seem like somebody who is chilled and doesn't get nervous about anything. But can you think of something that makes you nervous or made you nervous?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:24

Or yeah, definitely. I'm I mean, look, there's there's especially at at the one stage when I used to do surgery and particularly implants. I mean, it's it's a skill that you're not you taught at university in theory, but you're not really practicing it. And then you kind of have to place your your first implant, and then you gotta place your second one, your third one. So all of that, it carried on making me nervous up until a point where one day I just stopped being nervous.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:54

That's brilliant. I'm glad you mentioned this, right? Because when we go to I'm putting myself in a patient's shoes, right? If I go to a doctor, I'm assuming that whatever they're doing to me, you know, that they've everyone's fully competent, you know, they're not nervous about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:09

And that's one of the things I hated about dentistry. I remember when I first started and the a pediatric patient would come in, I would be, I would have to psych myself up and my hands would be shaking. That's I got my first needle stick from Pete's patient because I was nervous, literally. And and the public expect you to have this baseline competence and uh and confidence in yourself, but you know, there's always a first time for everyone. No, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:36

And that's the thing. I mean, if if we have to like subject every young practitioner to this thing, or how old are you? Uh, when did you qualify? Where's your father? You know, they make jokes like that, especially at one particular stage. Like I used to be called very young for my for my age. Yeah. And especially when I wear my scrub cap and you can't see the grays. Yeah. And there, I mean, patients would walk in and they'd be like, Oh, do you own the practice? And you know, the there's subtle comments that kind of indicate that you're not experienced enough to be working on me.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:07

Yeah, it's probably the thing that women experience all the time, where like, you know, I we used to work with UFT used to work with me, and then the patients would come in and say, Oh, sister, where's the doctor? That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:16

Where people just judge you based on your experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:18

No, exactly, of course. Um I I just kept thinking about this meme now where this uh the surgeon's looking down like this, and then there's a there's a patient there, and then the surgeon says, Relax, David, it's just a minor surgery. And then the patient goes, But my name is is John, and then the surgeon goes, Yeah, my name's David. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a funny meme. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:39

That's a good one, yeah. I mean, you can relate to that because we've been on that side. You've been on that side of you to actually psych yourself up, and lots of people don't think of that, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:47

Yeah. But I mean, to answer your question about being nervous outside.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:51

Not really. It's okay if you don't get nervous. I mean you chill.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:55

No, I mean, look, I get nervous when um Like big business meetings.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:00

I don't know, what do you well it's fine if the if you can't think of it, that's okay. I yeah, I actually can't. I get nervous before I I I give a big like presentation, things like that. Yeah. Even though I'm very comfortable with it nowadays. Like it used to give me sleepless nights. I've gotten to that stage that you mentioned where you've done it enough times where you're comfortable with it. But I still get nervous.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:20

No, of course. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good motivating factor to to you know understand that one, you're still human, and two, you're not being like Apathetic towards what you care about. Or or yeah, approaching this from an egocentric perspective that you're so good at it that nothing's gonna touch you.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:38

Yeah, I get you, I get you. Ever had a patient or a case um that like deeply impacted you're gonna be able to do that. Yeah, deeply deeply impacted you positively or negatively. Can you think of any is there any moment?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:51

I mean, and please don't disclose any confidential stuff, but not or you can even say not really if there's if Yeah, in fact, um there's been a few patients that I've actually had that uh impacted me quite a lot. In fact, can I at this juncture talk about um like the gender-based violence? I know it's not on the list of.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:13

No, please, there's no you my my list, list doesn't dictate the conversation. Okay. It needs to flow.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:19

So you know I climbed on behalf of the Impelo Foundation, and it was like to raise awareness for gender-based violence and why it resonated with that. Wait, wait, you brushed over that.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:30

You said you climbed. Now not everybody knows.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:33

Yeah, we'll come back to that. But uh unless you want to. So you did an initially do the interview.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:38

No, because uh you're saying climbed, but people need to know that it was Mount Everest, right? So you climbed Everest for an initiative. Go on then.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:46

Yeah, so we uh I mean there was there were many to kind of choose from. We were even thinking about starting our own NPO and stuff, but I mean the logistics of doing that and training to go up a mountain is difficult. So we partnered or associated ourselves with um and Pelo Foundation and Angela Young to because they were their their topic at that particular time was gender-based violence. And why so was I told you like I worked in that MaxFax department in Pumalanga.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:13

Maxilofacial, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:16

And it's a deep rural, and you know, the the patients hardly speak any English, and your uh um uh native language is also like a little bit flawed. But they'd come in and there'd be that they'd say to you, Oh, I opened the car door and I got hit in the face, or I fell down the steps, or you know, I slipped, or whatever it is. And we know that it's nonsense because clinically it doesn't correlate if you got a bruise here and you open the car door. Okay. So I used to get irritated and frustrated then at that stage.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:46

Yeah. But patients like basically telling me a white lie.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:49

Exactly. And they were lying to us, and we and I'm trying to like I'm trying to help, but we're getting like false information. And that was it. And you know, you you you just get irritated, and that was the resounding emotion that you had from it.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:03

Yeah, irritation, yeah. Instead of like apathy or exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:07

And then four or five years later on, I'm working in private practice in an affluent area, and then COVID happened. And then a lot of the referrals that I used to get was also like trauma related. Okay. And it was affluent persons, ladies specifically, coming in with like you know, their Porsche and their fancy cars.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:32

And it was exactly the same thing. Okay. Oh, I opened the car door and I got hit there and whatever. And I was like, how is this happening so many years later? Yeah. And in such different spheres of life. And the one day I remember I particularly got emotional about that, and like the whole thing, was it was a very young lady that came in and like very, very pretty. You could see that she took care of herself very well. And she came in holding her teeth in her hands, like that's her two front teeth. And she's like, What do I do? Can I put it back? And my I'm like, I'm I'm so worried about like what I'm in uh my family's gonna say and whatever it is. She said all of that, and I was like, Okay, what happened? Like, like, let's sit down, let's have a chat, we made some tea, whatever. And then she's like, No, um, my son was playing with a baseball bat and he hit me by mistake.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:25

And then I was like, Well, then why are you worried about what your family's gonna say? I mean, this is like a trauma or whatever. And at that particular moment, I realized that all of these women, being in the affluent area on the deep rural parts of South Africa, were all subjected to the same form of this gender-based violence where the perpetrator is sitting right there in the room with them. So they underwent this physical trauma, but then there's also that emotional trauma where they they subjected to them like fabricating the story in order to not to protect um yeah, to not get in trouble any further per se.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:06

Okay. So that had had a profound impact. Because I mean, then that was what inspired you to link up. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:13

And and and that that's why I chose to answer that your question. Because it wasn't in one particular time, but every single time this would happen, first it would elicit this frustration in me. And then when I eventually understood deeper what the what this actually this issue was, it became empathetic.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:30

I get you, I get you. You want to talk about Everest or not really?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:34

That's up to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:34

Oh yeah, okay, so tell us about Everest and what you want. It was steep. I mean, uh look, I heard you climbing Everest and I didn't realize what climbing Everest is all about. Like I I mean, I knew it's a big mountain and you know people refer to it as Everest, you know. And it's a huge thing, but I didn't realize it's the a thing. I mean, I didn't realize it's a thing where the landmarks I mean there's a I was fascinated to learn this. There's a landmark on Mount Everest called Green Boots, right? And Green Boots is a landmark named Green Boots because there's a climber that died at that particular spot and it was just not worthwhile to remove their body from the mountain. So the climber's been snowed over and just the green boot boots are sticking out, and that's a landmark. And I didn't realize that there were like bodies scattered all over, and that if you climb Everest, there's a big chance that you might not come back in one piece, or you might not come back at all, all those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:40

Few pieces.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:41

So what what why why did you do it and what happened? Tell us about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:46

So I went to uh base camp 2022, August, November 2022. And I've spoken about this a lot, like in other interviews and the radio and stuff like that. But I'll for the sake of uh your your listeners, our listeners, I'll tell the story again. Base camp was challenging, it was hectic. You land at Lakla Airport and you gotta hike for 10 days. Yeah, it was a very strenuous hike up to base camp. And eventually when I got to base camp, there's this big rock there.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:16

And it says base camp, 5,800 and uh whatever, 34 meters.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:21

And then there was even a picture of a penis drawn like graffiti on there. And I was like, no way, this cannot be what we hiked up all of these days for. Okay. And it was a particularly cloudy day. So you could hike up just to get to base camp. Yeah. Okay. For days. Ten days, yeah. Shh. You're doing like maybe 12, 13 kilometers a day.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:41

And um so we got there, and I was like, I was like frustrated at that time. And I was like, oh, this can't be it. This is like an anti-climax. So far in the distance, maybe about another four or five kilometers, I saw that there were tents there. And then I really I had my drone with me, so I thought, let me go and try and drone closer to this thing. So the my climbing, they're not called Sherpas, they he's like a climbing associate or whatever you want to call him. They're responsible for you. So he was like, okay, come, we can go closer and go closer. So I went sort of droning. We're about now a kilometer away from this thing. And as I got closer, I'm looking at the screen on the drone. I can see that there's people at the camp, and the one guy is like waving and he's like doing this, yeah, doing that.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:30

So he's so Yak is just gesticulating, like he's saying, come, come closer for listeners. For the l listeners, Yak was, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:38

No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:39

The guy was telling you to come closer with your drone. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:42

And then uh, so that's actually a good observation. Maybe he was telling the drone to come closer.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:48

So I uh I took that as he wanted me to come. Oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:52

Oh, okay, yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:54

Yeah, maybe. So this guy, this guy is now gesturing towards you to come uh or saying to you, come towards.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:00

Well, that's what I thought. I thought he uh meant that uh he wanted me to come. So I was excited about this, so I didn't even bother landing the drone. I just called my uh my climbing guy and I was like, look, look, look, he's he wants us to come closer. And I mean it's these guys' responsibilities to keep you alive now, so they don't want you to go anywhere near there because you're getting closer and closer to the ice shelf.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:25

So he was like, no, no, no, no, come let's go back. And by that time, I was already like 100 meters in front of him, I was already motioning to this to the to base camp proper. And eventually I got there and I met the lead sharpa there. His name is Tenji Sharpa. Such a hospitable experience. He took me into their uh actual tents, the climbing tents. He took me into the mess, their kitchen, and uh yeah, I made some tea and we sat down. And um, yeah, it was just an amazing experience. They were taking this Polish team, it was a forward expedition for the Polish team to go up to just camp uh three because they wanted a ski down from camp three to camp two. And um yeah, we had a phenomenal experience. We left there, and that was the experience that I actually wanted. I wanted to get that as base camp, no, because it was just base camp. And like he he could see that I was very interested at that stage, and he was like, No, why don't you come back? We should come back and climb and whatever it is, and then he took the the two-way radio signal of my um my climbing guy, and we went back down to the next village, which was Tingbuche. And then that evening he radioed my um climbing buddy, um, and then he was like, Why don't you take this guy and go to uh Lobuche East Peak?

SPEAKER_02 1:42:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:53

So Lobuche East is it's like a qualifier, an Everest qualifier at 6,119 meters, I think, stand to be corrected. But he was like, take him up there, he'll arrange all the permits and whatever it is. So we did. The next day we went and we climbed Lobuche East.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:11

Okay. And so basically you qualified.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:14

Yeah. Yeah. So and I thought to myself, wow, this is actually not that strenuous, it wasn't that bad. But then after all of the, you know, the effort that it took to actually just get to base camp, climbing up there it wasn't that technical, so it was actually okay. And then I thought to myself, oh, maybe Everest wouldn't be that bad because it was just a seed that he planted in my head. Then him and I stayed in contact for the next like month, two months or so. And then, yeah, that's when I decided that okay, maybe I should go try it out. And then you climbed Everest in 2020. What was it? 2020? Last year, 2023.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:52

And that was the deadliest year in the history of Everest.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:56

Yeah, it was the deadliest year. They had the most amount of deaths in history. There was 18 in total.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:01

The South African healthcare worker or something. Am I right?

SPEAKER_01 1:44:05

Yeah, he once lived in South Africa. He was an aesthetist.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:09

But there was a heart attack, I think, at Camp 2.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:12

Okay. And then you you want to do do the long story short thing? Because I'm sure as you mentioned, there's been podcasts and you've been in the world. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:22

I think we'll have to probably have a own podcast about it. Yeah, long story short, um had a severe weather window. Um we're at the Hillary Steppe.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:36

Hillary Steppe is like 50 meters away from summit.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:39

Yeah, it's about 150. You can see it.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:41

You can throw a stone at it if you want.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:43

Yeah, we've got a good arm.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:45

But um, yeah, then changing oxygen tanks, that's when we needed to, that's our only availability to change the tank because it's the width is between you and me. And there's a drop on the other side into China, uh or Tibet, and then there's a drop on this side to Nepal. So you basically you're gonna die if you if you try and attempt to change tanks at any other stage. And that's when we checked our tank, and um, yeah, my Sherpa at that stage um realized that one of the tanks were empty. So, because the regulator was broken.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:19

So yeah, we had to make a tough decision to to get back down to camp four. And then at that stage, you think, okay, right, there's you'll probably have a second bid, summit bid. So it's camp four is from camp four is a dead zone. You're not meant to be in that area for more than 24 hours. Okay. Um due to lack of oxygen. And um, yeah, get down to camp four, and then long story short, that's when um frostbite setting started setting in in my uh right hand. Yeah. I didn't know at that stage it was frostbite. I mean, I just thought that okay, it was very cold, and you're in all honesty, your whole body is numb. Yeah, and there's this pain everywhere. But you have a reduced amount of mobility in your hand. And from a technical climb perspective, you gotta have a lot of mobility because the stuff you use to descend, like the descender, the jummer and all your belays and everything, you need to have a little bit of finesse in order to unclip and clip and fly motor skills basically. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I was asked to I mean, you you gotta be at that stage be evacuated, and I had to climb back down through the night to camp three.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:33

Um, that was very, very daunting. Uh, because you're climbing in the dark, there's you're not meant to be out at that time. No one's meant to be out in the night between camp three and camp four. And you basically are appelling into darkness the whole time.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:46

And this is the place where, as I said, there's like dead bodies scattered everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:50

Yeah. And people just get left. So surely all of those things are on your mind, also, right? As you're doing all of this. Or not really, you can't think.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:58

No, not really, eh? I mean, but if you think about that stage, there's all the adrenaline's gone from your body. There's you just basically look one step to the next, like one foot in front of the other, or one foot behind the other, because you're going in reverse backwards. Um interesting. Yeah, then you got to camp three because probably about eleven o'clock at night, and we had to wait out. Now there's no logistically, there's nothing there available to sustain you till the next night. No oxygen, no food, nothing that there was. And I I don't think I told this story to like out in public, but the only thing that we had at that stage, because we hadn't accommodated for everything else, I had uh wooly's jelly beans.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:42

So we were put in this tent, um, about three or four other random climbers, but one of the other climbers that I knew that was there was Narendra. His name is Narendra, the Indian climber.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:53

And we we both were starving, like we just kept asking like for food. If does anyone have food? Anyone have food? And no one was responding. Eventually I found this little bag of um of jelly beans that were packed.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:04

Willie's jelly beans, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:06

Yeah. So the only thing you have is gas in a little burner. So it took snow from the outside, we melted the snow, we emptied the whole jelly bean container into that, and we basically dissolved the jelly bean into this thing, and we all drank. Like an energy drink type of thing. Yeah. Well, okay. We had jelly bean water.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:24

And uh yeah, that was what's resourceful.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:26

You guys were resourceful even in the in trying circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:29

Yeah, you when in those circumstances, I think if you're not resourceful, you assured of death. Right. So he lost his foot, his right foot, um, unfortunately. But uh yeah, the next day I got Heli Wat um out of there.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:46

And uh like a helicopter comes and takes you.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:48

Yeah, there was a long line rescue. Yeah, it's currently on a nomination list for the Guinea's World Book of Records for the highest helicopter long run in history. Oh, okay. Yeah, the previous record was called the human sling operation of Anapurna 2013. So you might be a record breaker, is what you're saying in all of this. Okay. We'll see.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:08

Yeah, there were 6,800 meters. This was at 7,300 meters. Okay. Oh, yeah. To submit the GoPro and everything for verification. Oh. And apparently I can win a prize.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:18

Okay, that'll be a good one.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:19

Like money. You have to declare that.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:22

I mean, the listeners won't know this, but the whole time you've been sitting here, there's a glove on your right hand, right? So fast forward after you've been. I mean, what's happened? If you're comfortable talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:34

Yeah, I'll talk about it. I haven't uh verbalized it in any of the recordings thus far, but I yeah, I got back to South Africa. It was a nice I mean, I was in hospital for a day, but I was discharged, had the best of the best people working on me, Roger Nicholson. Um I'm hoping he watches this. Yeah. Um But there was um who's he? Yeah. Hand plastic surgeon.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:01

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:02

So shout out to him. Yeah. Yeah. So we actually just had to wait for something called demarcation to happen, which is basically to see what the level of your hand, either rejuvenation or death is gonna be. Okay. So we just had to wait about month, month and a half, and then we called it. We needed to book surgery. And um yeah, I subsequently lost four fingers partially. Yeah, on your right hand. Yeah. So I mean that that was that was challenging, but you know, a lot of people tell me sounds devastating.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:36

I mean, you're putting it mildly.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:37

Yeah. Uh and I was like, I was basically, I was okay with it. Because what my hand actually looks like um at that stage is it turned into bone. All of this was black. And there's a video that I have that I don't want to post on social media or anything for fear of freaking everyone out. But I I was just doing this on a laptop and it sounds like metal on metal.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:00

Oh, okay. I think I showed you that video. Yeah, I remember that. It sounds like a hard thing on a hard thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:04

Yeah, but it's basically bone on bone. It wasn't painful pre-amputation, but I think post-amputation, especially changing the dressing. I had to prep myself for it. The first couple of times they took me in to change the dressings, but it's basically bone that's exposed. Yeah. Um, and the whole irony about irony, yeah, um, about all of all of this, uh, and is the surgery time. And it um, you know, I must thank my sister and my family and everyone, and Keshi as well, because this is my cousin. She happened to be um on call in on in theater that day. And so she actually assisted with the surgery and it didn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:44

Sented Mediclinic, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:47

So yeah, it was it was a harrowing experience, but I I don't know. I don't know. I mean, look, you you have mandated trauma um counseling and everything afterwards, which she basically said, yeah, look, everything is fine, you're okay. But I guess I I I am a resilient person, but I don't know to what degree.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:05

But you bounce back like ridiculously, like, which is a testament to your strength.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:13

Yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:14

Okay. Well, yeah, that's the story. And that that ex well, that's why we were referring to dentistry in the past tense, this whole and the practice of dentistry. Okay. Let's wrap up now. We uh I don't even know how long this has been. I want to do a lightning round first. And then um bring it on the thing. We asked a coup we asked the followers and the people that subscribe to the channel to submit questions, and I'll just give you a couple, and then I want to wrap up with my last question, which might end up being the last question that I ask every guest on this part. I'm not sure. So let's do the lightning round first. Root canal or crown prep? Definitely crown prep. Meritspurg or Mauritius? Mauritius. No water at home for a day or no Wi-Fi at home for a day? No Wi-Fi. Morning coffee or evening tea? Morning coffee. Solo travel or group trip? Solo travel. Pizza with or without pineapple? With? With pineapple. You're a pro pineapple person.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:11

Doesn't faze me. Imagine if there's masala ended.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:13

Well, I mean, your instinctive response was with, so that's just I mean, I disagree with you there. Uh movies or series? Movies. Okay. Braces or clear uh clear aligners? There's a loaded question.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:25

Clear aligners.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:26

Yeah, well, you would say that. Well, it depends. That's a plug for Elton, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:29

Yeah, but your mentor.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:31

Okay. I've got more, but uh I want to wrap it up. There's a couple of questions from followers. So Sayurika Moodli asks, does your mental health get affected negatively while maintaining and being great? So clearly she thinks you're great.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:46

Okay, it's good.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:47

I mean Oh, that's a question.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:49

Yeah. Uh does it get affected negatively while trying to be awesome, I guess? Or stay awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:59

Yeah, definitely. I think mental health gets affected even when you're not great. Mental health is something that is ongoing and it's needs to be checked. So how do you do it? Quite regularly.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:09

She hasn't asked us, but I'm asking, I mean, how do you keep it in check and do you read?

SPEAKER_01 1:54:13

Do you I think it's it's also with the people you have around you that you know you can be your authentic self with number one, yeah, but also they can be as authentic as they can with you in order to because it's it's difficult. You can't mental health is is such a thing that it's it just creeps up on you and you don't even know when it's there. So if certain people that you have around you can be vested in you enough to call you out on you know the bullshit, then Okay, so it's your relationships. It's a relationship and people you have around you, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:49

Dr. Kiyasha Ayalu wants to know what's next on your bucket list.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:57

Another loaded question. Yeah, uh things you things that can't and can can disclose, but uh that's sounds juicy. There's um yeah, with with the with my hand, I I can't mention companies and everything at this stage, although a lot of people know it anyway, but um there is a move, there is a um how how would I phrase this? I'm gonna be embarking on a um RD sort of development to try and rehabilitate my hand. Okay um and it is quite futuristic, and it is I emphasize RD. Um so it also just depends on you know when they call me up and and what I have to do. Thus far, there have been developments um which um I was surprised by. And um yeah, I'm looking forward to that. And then subsequent to that, yeah, there's a lot of other stuff that I actually want to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:00

Okay, well, you're keeping it close to your chest, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:03

Now because it's why did I become a doctor slash dentist slash clinician? If I'm gonna end off by asking you, like if somebody came to you now and said, Yeah, I'm thinking of getting into dentistry, and they asked you, what do you what would you say about it? Um, would you give advice? What advice would you give to this person that comes to you and says, I want to do dentistry?

SPEAKER_01 1:56:28

Well, as per the undertone of our whole um conversation, it would be nothing to do with dentistry. Yeah. I wouldn't ask them, what do you want from dentistry? Or are you good, are you good dentistry? Well, maybe I would ask them, Do you see yourself as being a good dentist? But I go back to those fundamental principles of like the Iggy guy. Do you love dentistry? What do you love about dentistry? Do you see yourself making money from dentistry that we touched on? Do you see, like if you're planning to practice in South Africa, what the world needs? Do you think that South Africa needs more dentists with NHI coming about and and all of these, you know, um uh factors that you need to actually uh incorporate. So if the person answers all of that favorably in favor of dentistry, then I would say definitely go for it because you can make the most out of it because you invested very well in what it is that you enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:25

Well, interest that sounds like a very good way to approach it, and it's like a coaching type of question where you're asking them and letting them figure it out. But anyway, yak, thank you so much for taking a chance. No further questions. Thanks a lot for taking a chance. Uh hopefully I edit this and make it look okay. Yeah, make us look nice. And yeah, thanks so much for your time, man. And yeah, thanks a lot. Appreciate it.